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Incels agree: If guys don’t have sex in high school they’re ruined for life

“Teenagers” in love: Detail from cover of Teen-Age Romances

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By David Futrelle

It’s not a secret that incels are obsessed with underage girls and the allegedly pure joys of teenage sex. Now they seem to have collectively decided that any guy who doesn’t manage to have sex in high school has lost out on something so magical that he is essentially scarred for life; he might as well rope, as they like to put it.

In a recent post on the Incels.co forums, an incel called Personalityinkwell declares, in all caps, that

SEX IN HIGH SCHOOL IS EVERYTHING

everything else is pure cope. …

The only thing that matters is having good genes/good parents so you can be a JB [jailbait] slayer, everything else is GIGACOPE.

Other incels expand on this theme. Mylifeistrash declares that

it’s the harshest pill

that you only got one shot in life and your genetics determined it all

no amount of self-improvement cope or money maxxing will ever make up for your teenage years

AmIjustDreaming agrees,

No amount of money or any other cope can make up for missed teen love. I’m almost 26 and the teenpill still gets to me. While I rotted playing video games, everyone else was having their first kiss, sex, teen love. It will fuck you up forever.

“Only teen love can make up for missed teen love,” laments LOLI BREEDING.

“Highschools need to offer euthanasia at the last day of school,” adds _wifebeater_.

The anger, naturally, stokes the incels’ feelings of entitlement.

“Its such a crime that we never got to fuck prime girls,” complains Ropemaxx.

And it’s not long before they start talking about the age of consent in the Phillipines.

Even aside from the pedophilia, an undercurrent in almost all incel discussions of sex, this is all just bullshit. There’s nothing magical about having sex as a teenager; it’s exciting, to be sure, but it can also be awkward and even a bit embarrassing, as no one knows what they’re doing at first. Sex can actually be a lot better for everyone once both partners have had a little more (or a lot more) experience.

And sex isn’t everything; it’s certainly a pleasant part of life, for those who are into it, but you can live without it. And lots of people do, living through “dry spells” than can last years. Not having sex in high school doesn’t make you special; it doesn’t even make you all that unusual, given that the average age at which Americans have sex for the first time at is 17, with the percentage of high schoolers having sex dropping below 50% in recent years.

That’s right: MOST PEOPLE in high school aren’t having sex.

Yes, it sucks to go through high school dateless. But there are worse things in life. And you have the rest of your life to make up for lost time. Move the fuck on, dudes; stop fixating on something you cannot change.

There are some guys whose lives basically peaked in high school who spend the rest of their lives trying to recapture what they felt the day they scored the winning touchdown. And they won’t shut up about it. Incels are doing something similar, only backwards, fixating on their sexual failures in high school and never shutting up about them. I can’t decide which group is more pathetic, but I know that neither the aging jock or the aging incel is going to be happy until they clear the resentment and self-hatred out of their heads and start living in the present.

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Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Paireon

I just find it bizarre that so many others have the opposite reaction; I was raised in the same cultural milieu, after all, and I seriously doubt that my mild autism spectrum disorder is the sole cause of the discrepancy…

It’s possibly a political thing. A lot of conservatives or people who grew up in conservatives backgrounds might not pay attention to consent because they have been trained not to (and consent can be about non-sexual stuff as well like hugging etc).

@Lenona
If you aren’t for abstinence only sex ed but people think you are, maybe see what in your writing is making people think that. Or respond directly to specific things people have said rather than quoting books by people we’ve never heard of.

A Distracted Medievalist
A Distracted Medievalist
1 month ago

@Feline, to continue the less contentious strand of this thread, here to agree with your points on premodern western European marriage, especially the bit about haystacks. Marriage was contracted between husband and wife alone; a priest witnessed and blessed but wasn’t necessary to the contract. So people could get married by themselves by saying the words of consent, and I have read a case record in which a couple did so in a hurry in the actual haystack where they went on to consummate the marriage. It’s in the record because one of them, I think the man, got cold feet after and disputed whether they’d definitely committed to marriage, but plenty of other marriages might have started in similar situations and lasted.

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

Oh, yes, and it didn’t surprise me at all when Elizabeth Smart, in May 2013, said that the education she’d had before her kidnapping only made it harder for her to escape. From the Christian Science Monitor:

…Rescued kidnapping victim Elizabeth Smart said Wednesday she understands why some human trafficking victims don’t run.

Smart said she “felt so dirty and so filthy” after she was raped by her captor, and she understands why someone wouldn’t run “because of that alone.”

Smart spoke at a Johns Hopkins human trafficking forum, saying she was raised in a religious household and recalled a school teacher who spoke once about abstinence and compared sex to chewing gum.

“I thought, ‘Oh, my gosh, I’m that chewed up piece of gum, nobody re-chews a piece of gum, you throw it away.’ And that’s how easy it is to feel like you know longer have worth, you know longer have value,” Smart said. “Why would it even be worth screaming out? Why would it even make a difference if you are rescued? Your life still has no value.”…

Paireon
Paireon
1 month ago

@Naglfar –

It’s possibly a political thing. A lot of conservatives or people who grew up in conservatives backgrounds might not pay attention to consent because they have been trained not to (and consent can be about non-sexual stuff as well like hugging etc).

Actually, that’s just the thing – my own milieu is fairly liberal/kinda-centrist/mostly open-minded (which is still a bit to the right of my own positions as I’m pretty certain I’m a very open-minded centre-left social democrat), and yet I can easily see why even here talk of consent is necessary – Quebec was hit pretty hard by the Me Too movement*, and there was a even a brand new batch of abuse allegations in May/June, including one that was woman-on-woman. At least there’s discussion about it… Let’s hope it goes beyond just that.

@A Distracted Medievalist – Yeah, IIRC there were some rules concerning marriage, but technically the couple could declare that they were married first, even in private, and it would be considered binding. They still at least usually sought a priest to bless the union afterwards but that was more of a cultural formality/norm than an obligation.

*Captain Obvious moment here: that is a Good Thing. Abusers should have to face the music.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

@Lenona

Are you just using this thread to post rambling, free association, stream of consciousness thoughts, or do you actually have a point?

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

re: Dan Savage, that’s guy’s a breath of fresh air for people who, like him, are only halfway out of the deeply problematic morass that most people grew up with. For those who have gotten further out (and I don’t think anyone is truly 100% out of it) or were never really there, it’s easy to be unimpressed by his supposed wisdom.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

And now for a classic 90’s song relevant to the conversation.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 month ago

@ Lenona;

I feel like I’m reading the “R” rated version of a 1960s “Betty and Veronica” comic…

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

Lenona, can you just, like, stop with the very long quotes from various sources and just say straight out, and in as brief a manner as possible, what you think?

What should sex ed include, and why?
That’s a simple enough question, right?

So, for example, if you think it should include the lesson that ONSs are bad and LTRs are good, why do you think that is important, and how do you suggest to disentangle it from slut-shaming and aro-erasure?

If you cannot just answer this without starting a multi-paragraph ramble about some thing you read in the 90s or whatever, maybe just generally stop and think why that is.
Right now, reading you is downright tiring.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Snowberry
I think I’m more unimpressed because of the sexism and transphobia. He seems to have a lot of derision aimed at women, as he regularly seems to expect women to do extreme things for boyfriends/husbands, and has contempt for LGBT people that aren’t gay white cis guys (he’s notoriously biphobic, transphobic, and aphobic). So that’s why I stopped reading him.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

(On another note, are folks here familiar with the Little Red Schoolbook? I expect Alan must be; I learned about it via the 70s episode of Back in Time for School and then looked it up and found a PDF online. It was advice about various aspects of life for teens, with a big emphasis on questioning norms and rules, and while it’s still a product of its time in many ways, it’s relatively open and accepting about sex, and I’m sure would have really been something that kids back then would not have read elsewhere.)

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

I’m confused why we need to protect teens from heartache at all costs.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

I’m concerned/curious where this positions LGBT kids. Lenona’s plan and “evidence” rests firmly on a cishet model, with the only acknowledgement of queer people being a bunch of stereotypes about gay folks.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

I’m confused why we need to protect teens from heartache at all costs.

Aren’t there already too many fans of The Eagles?

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Naglfar: I haven’t read him much, but I was unimpressed by his simplistic solutions to things which we as a society need to have deeper conversations about.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

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Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Policy of Madness:

I’m confused why we need to protect teens from heartache at all costs.

For those who have experienced both, bullying is usually much worse than heartache. Heartache is a learning experience (though sometimes people learn the wrong things from it) and bullying only teaches things which no one should ever need to know in a world where people take it much more seriously.

But since we still don’t (collectively, not always individually) take bullying all that seriously, and occasionally even spin it as a “positive”. 😒 I don’t really think it’s about protecting them from heartache so much as it’s used as an excuse to “protect” teenagers from their own autonomy.

francis
francis
1 month ago

lenona

sorry a bit late to reply to an earlier part of this conversation but as a young woman by biggest bug bare with men was when they tried to get me into relatonships. I wanted friends with benefits and many men couldn’t respect that.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Snowberry

I was unimpressed by his simplistic solutions to things which we as a society need to have deeper conversations about.

I feel the same way. He never addressed any underlying issues.

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
1 month ago

Dolly Parton came out in favor of BLM and didn’t mince words about it. Wonder how her fans will react given which demographics tend to listen most to country music.

Dolly isn’t much listened to by mainstream country fans these days. What’s popular with them now is men singing about partying and guitar-solos ripped off from hair metal. Dolly’s listeners tend to be more people who are into Americana, who are usally not MAGAs.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ penny psmith

the Little Red Schoolbook

Oh wow, now there’s a memory.

From a legal point of view that book is famous because the subsequent court case gave us this oft repeated quote:

Freedom of expression…is applicable not only to ‘information’ or ‘ideas’ that are favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of indifference, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb the State or any sector of the population”

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

“What should sex ed include, and why?
That’s a simple enough question, right?”

Besides all the technicalities of biology, disease (you’re not opposed to teaching about that, even when the students really, really don’t want to hear it, right?) and what the LAW says and why, I would say these lessons are needed:

1. If you’re part of a heterosexual couple, regardless of which one you are, if YOU don’t want a pregnancy, it’s YOUR job to make sure TWO contraceptives are used, Every Time. Preferably three. (Sorry, men. Yes, you have to pay your half for those contraceptives, too.)

2. Even if you plan to save sex for a heterosexual marriage, you still can’t rush into sex once you’re married. Unless, of course, you like the idea of having a baby every year. I.e., for most couples, there IS no Hollywood-style, carefree sex, because diseases can threaten everyone – even monogamous couples. Those who don’t know this watch too much TV.

3. If you’re friends, you can talk. If you can’t talk, you’re not friends. That doesn’t bode well. (The same goes for conservative engaged couples who are too embarrassed to ask “have you been to see the doctor for STDs and where is the proof,” and who get infected on the wedding night. Or when someone doesn’t want to spend time with you outside of the bedroom – and you weren’t expecting that.)

4. If you have to get drunk to have fun, it’s not fun.

5. Loneliness is not love, and it’s not an excuse to get involved with someone who will make you unhappy or worse. Life is too short, and we fall in love with the people we spend time with and we become vulnerable when we sleep with them (sometimes), so it only makes sense to look for all sorts of serious incompatibilities early on – such as attitudes toward money and other people’s money.

6. Sexual incompatibility is no trivial matter, IF you want a long term relationship. How you solve that problem is up to you.

7. Harlan Ellison once said: “Love ain’t nothing but sex misspelled.” Maybe not always. But can you say “I would love you and stay with you even if you were suddenly in a wheelchair”? If not, it likely wasn’t love.

8. Porn is no more bad for you than romance novels are. Both will likely make you unhappy in the long run, since they’re not realistic. Same goes for watching too much TV, In general.

9. Exploiting other people, whether you meant to or not, is just plain mean and childish. This is why one has to learn what other people tend to think of as exploitation, even if you don’t. (That doesn’t just apply to sex, of course.)

Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
1 month ago

Re: Dan Savage. I’ve never liked him. His biphobia and transphobia have always grossed me out.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@LindsayIrene

What’s popular with them now is men singing about partying and guitar-solos ripped off from hair metal.

I don’t know too much about country music (though I like some bluegrass), but this sounds rather unpleasant. Hair metal should stay in the 80s.

@Lenona
What does any of that have to do with why teens shouldn’t have one night stands? You keep jumping to new talking points whenever your previous one gets called out instead of responding to criticism.

If you’re part of a heterosexual couple

What if you’re not, though? What about kids that aren’t straight, or aren’t interested in monogamous marriage?

IF you want a long term relationship

And what if you don’t? Some people don’t, and that should be respected.

Both will likely make you unhappy in the long run, since they’re not realistic.

I’m not sure if unrealistic things make people unhappy. If people expect that reality will be like that, they’ll be disappointed, but if people recognize that media doesn’t mirror reality they should be fine. I like science fiction despite it being fictional, because I realize that. Doesn’t stop me from wanting some of the things in it, but I know it’s fiction.
As for porn, I think the bigger danger is that since many people don’t get sex ed, porn serves as their education and shows a lot of unsafe sex, lack of consent, and other things that sex ed should explain are not to be done IRL or are simply unpleasant.

Hexum7
Hexum7
1 month ago

Here’s why you appear to be , shall we say, sex negative; you are suggesting that teens be warned against sex, because it might be traumatic if things go threat they shouldn’t (according to you) . However, that’s true if any endeavor. You might as well say that kids shouldn’t attend school because if things go wrong it might be devastating for them.

You haven’t provided any explanation as to why you believe sex (and you’ve already established that it’s not just one-night stands) is the one stand out experience that kids need to avoid at all costs.

Has it ever occurred to you that a sub par sexual encounter or relationship might not be so damaging if we did not drum it into them that there is only one type of relationship and one kind of outcome that is acceotable, long term committed sexual romances?? , and thereby deviation from that is bound to lead to unhappiness. That’s just one line away from the toxic , joy draining incel stance covered in this blog post.

If course it’s very possible that I’ve muddied up your statements. As others in this thread have noted, your posts tend to be evasive and vague, yet weirdly over specific on tangents and tediously over-wordy. It’s hard to keep up and parse it all.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 month ago

I wish I could remember where I saw it, but a few years back I saw a video proposing a novel approach to sex ed for young adults: talk about sex as if it were a jam session. A jam session is fun when everybody knows enough about their instrument to make some kind of music, when everybody is enthusiastic about playing together, and when everybody agrees to stop when the fun is over. The instructor pointed out that the model was flexible enough for all genders, orientations, and preferences. I couldn’t argue.

ETA: Found it!

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

I’m not a teacher and I don’t pretend to know what specific advice to give to LGBTQ teens, other than what the more progressive teachers already give – and I don’t know what that is. (I can only hope teachers don’t make homophobic violence sound like a hazard that can never be stopped.) Besides, even #2 had advice in it for all couples – as did most of my other points.

Yes, teens expect life to mirror at least some of their favorite media. They’re teens. They also tend to turn away from real life when it gets too messy – and it becomes a vicious circle.

On ONS. Again, I don’t believe in making anything seem like forbidden fruit, for obvious reasons, so a general, non-specific approach, as was suggested upthread, is a good idea. But it only makes sense to point out all the hazards, beforehand (if indirectly) of certain types of sex. Example: Some years ago, a man got arrested for statutory rape – the girl was a 14-year-old stranger. Some thought the arrest wasn’t fair. Others pointed out that anyone could get off the hook by claiming that the younger party lied, even if the younger, hypothetical party didn’t actually say anything – and clearly, parents of minors would never allow that, since we’re talking about defendants who are old enough to vote, after all. Another person pointed out that sleeping with strangers can be very hazardous for men OR women – albeit for somewhat different reasons, so it only makes sense to discourage it.

But what’s wrong with ONS between high school students? Well, chances are the person who WANTS it to be a ONS plans to shun, more or less, the second party ever after – and the latter may well feel horribly exploited, since there probably wasn’t any real agreement beforehand. See #9.

And here’s #10. Teachers can say: “If anyone wants to know what safeguards OTHER people have used to make their sex lives relatively non-traumatic and crime-free as possible, you may ask me for copies of a printed list at the end of class, because I’m not going to force a list of dos and don’ts on those who don’t want to hear it.”

(Of course, that includes the safeguard of making sure someone is of legal age. Hint: it’s SORT of a red flag when someone claims to be over 16 but isn’t on Facebook. Google often works pretty well, too.)

Again, it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. Teens may resent being warned, but they’re even more likely to resent not being warned.

Finally, from what I’ve heard, Peggy Orenstein has been doing a pretty good job minimizing the sex wars of teens, in her recent books. (I trust HER name isn’t completely unfamiliar, here?)

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@VP
That’s a good analogy. Another one I saw that I liked was about tea.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

@Lenona

But what’s wrong with ONS between high school students? Well, chances are the person who WANTS it to be a ONS plans to shun, more or less, the second party ever after

I don’t see any evidence for this. I know lots of adults who’ve hooked up with people or had FWB situations and didn’t shun each other, and I don’t see why teens couldn’t do the same.

it’s SORT of a red flag when someone claims to be over 16 but isn’t on Facebook

I’m not on FaceBook. I know a lot of adults who have deleted it or were never on it in the first place for a multitude of reasons. And I don’t think many young people are on it anymore.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

But what’s wrong with ONS between high school students? Well, chances are the person who WANTS it to be a ONS plans to shun, more or less, the second party ever after – and the latter may well feel horribly exploited, since there probably wasn’t any real agreement beforehand.

There’s no right or wrong time to learn that lack of communication leads to problems, and the teenage years are just as good as any other time. I still don’t get why you think teenagers must be coddled and protected from bad feelings. Bad feelings are a way of life, and everyone has to learn how to deal with them sooner or later. You learn by doing. You learn by having bad feelings and sitting with them and crying over them maybe, and wallowing in your feelings until you learn how to self-soothe and make yourself feel better. This does not magically become easier in one’s 20s if one didn’t experience any bad feelings in one’s teen years upon which to learn this skill. In fact, people who are protected from bad feelings by those around them for too long tend to become spoiled assholes who expect the world to revolve around their feelings and the people in it to manage their emotions for them. Letting kids bruise their hearts early is good for them. Warping the universe to protect them from bad feelings is counterproductive and just stupid.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

On ONS. Again, I don’t believe in making anything seem like forbidden fruit, for obvious reasons, so a general, non-specific approach, as was suggested upthread, is a good idea. But it only makes sense to point out all the hazards, beforehand (if indirectly) of certain types of sex. Example: Some years ago, a man got arrested for statutory rape – the girl was a 14-year-old stranger.

Why are you conflating one night stands and statutory rape? Statutory rape isn’t necessarily (and probably not usually) from a one night stand, but instead the product of grooming. That’s been the case for statutory rape survivors I know anyway.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

Why are you conflating one night stands and statutory rape?

As far as I can tell, the logic is that teens looking for one-night-stands will obviously go out and find adults to sleep with, and not tell them their age, thereby “tricking” the adults into committing statutory rape.

Which does sound an awful lot like those “well, if we believe survivors then what if someone falsely accuses ME of rape” concerns that sketchy people have.

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 month ago

@Lenona

I trust HER name isn’t completely unfamiliar, here?)I trust HER name isn’t completely unfamiliar, here?)

It is. Your streak of shitty citations remains unbroken. You have yet to make a single cogent point about anything whatsoever, or to own up to your bigoted statements. Do the second, then stop fucking typing, because you’re getting more obnoxious with every post.

NautaliaC
NautaliaC
1 month ago

@Lenona Your list reads like “sage” advice coming from an aunt or uncle. Might as well put in “a bird in the hand is worth eating cheese on a Tuesday uphill both ways.” What would the lesson plan be like? I don’t think it’s necessary to be a teacher to cook something up, right? We’ve all been students once before.

I’ve always been an advocate for teaching more soft skills in schools in general. This includes issues of consent, dealing with rejection, how to communicate with people from different backgrounds and abilities, etc. Much of the biology is easy and from what I can tell easily forgotten. So, if your point is ultimately that sex is scary and should be applied with many eggshells to tiptoe around, then that doesn’t help anyone to communicate what they personally feel.

Also, as a poly person I’m feeling a bit out in the cold. I guess I’ll have to find (multiple) caring people to warm me up!

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

“I still don’t get why you think teenagers must be coddled and protected from bad feelings.”

I didn’t say that. Wendy Kaminer (of the ACLU, remember) referred to “considerable heartache,” and I referred to trauma. Those aren’t just “bad feelings.” Of course kids need to learn to deal with regular crushing disappointments on their own – including the ones that MIGHT come from heavy petting or unrequited love. But hooking up for heavy petting very often just isn’t comparable to hooking up for “going al the way,” whatever that translates to. (Especially when you’re lonely and desperate and no one warned you there are no shortcuts to love.)

WWTH, I thought I spelled it out enough, but I was referring to the desire of some young men to hook up with strangers. Not men who want underage teens. The man in question didn’t know she was 14, but the judge was not sympathetic. (Other people got mad at the judge and had the gall to suggest the defendant should sue the girl. Honestly.) As commentator Allison said:

“I have two kids thankfully too young for this stuff yet, but I’ll have to tell them both to be very careful with regards to sex and everything that could lead up to it. If this girl had disappeared and been found 3 months later in a ditch, this would be common news, and a cautionary tale to young women not to hook up with strangers. Well, welcome to the party, guys. Don’t sleep with strangers.”

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

You know if teenager are just going to mess around with someone it’s probably going to be another teen right? like someone from school? someone from another school, someone from camp. Maybe that other random boy who hangs out in the grave yard. A friend’s friend maybe. Most teens aren’t going to get a fake id and go want to mess around with the 30 something cowboy at the bar.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@lenona

You know when i was a teen i didn’t want love, i wanted to be fucked. Most teens did. Because fucking is fun and it feels good and feelings are messy and to much sometimes. Most teenagers aren’t looking for the soul mate to settle down and have a life long happy marriage full of marital sex, their looking for a good time. If anything your overly complicating this a lot. I’m sorry if you had regrets from your sexual experiences but please stop dumping all of that onto other young people because it’s really creepy.

When the girl who use to have sex in the grave yard is telling you your being creepy, you being creepy.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

Also don’t call it petting, no one calls it petting. Super gross.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

I checked into this “Peggy Orenstein” person. She’s apparently researching the messages that society sends about sexuality to children and teens, how it affects them, and the disconnect between the messages meant for boys and girls, and then writing books about this. None of what I’ve seen so far is new or radical, and wouldn’t be out of place for a progressive feminist of the 1980s despite being only written and published in recent years. However, it seems marred by out-of-date ideas and heteronormative focus. Perhaps a deeper dive would show that the seeming flaws are minor and easily overlooked, or that it’s actually a bit worse than it appears, but that would require actually reading her books and I have better things to do with my time.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

I didn’t say that. Wendy Kaminer (of the ACLU, remember) referred to “considerable heartache,” and I referred to trauma. Those aren’t just “bad feelings.”

“Considerable heartache” and trauma are different. Having heartache because the other party in a sexual encounter doesn’t want the same relationship you want isn’t somehow easier to handle if the first time you encounter it is when you are 28 compared with 18. It’s the same for someone in their 20s as someone in their teens. It’s the fucking same. You have communication issues, you have heartache, and you fucking deal with it. An 18 year old is not more tender or delicate than a 28 year old with the same amount of sexual experience. Delaying the first sexual experience from 17 to 27 would not magically spare someone heartache. It just delays teaching that person how to deal with heartache.

To call that “trauma” is belittling to people who have real sexual trauma. We can chalk up “belittles sexual trauma” to the list of shitty things you’ve perpetrated here on this thread.

Of course kids need to learn to deal with regular crushing disappointments on their own – including the ones that MIGHT come from heavy petting or unrequited love.

I like how you magnanimously allow teens to engage in heavy petting. What the actual fuck. Do you live your life in a teen drama movie? A soap opera comic strip?

But hooking up for heavy petting very often just isn’t comparable to hooking up for “going al the way,” whatever that translates to. (Especially when you’re lonely and desperate and no one warned you there are no shortcuts to love.)

What’s magical about the stroke of midnight on someone’s 20th birthday that makes them able to handle “going all the way,” whereas 20 minutes earlier their tender delicate heart just couldn’t handle it? Come on, spell it out. What is so special about TEENAGERS that they need to be preserved from the MASSIVE TRAUMATIC FEELINGS of bad communication around sex? Why shouldn’t everyone be warned off of the dreaded one-night-stand, since they are a recipe for fucking TRAUMA in your book? Why is it OK to commit ONS trauma on a person in their 30s?

Fucking trauma, for reals.

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

Snowberry, you don’t have to. She wrote one or more terrific articles for The Atlantic. They’re not that long.

(Would you believe some online female lawyer once sneered that that’s a “women’s magazine”? I didn’t waste my time asking her what she meant. No, I don’t know her name, but she’s something of a conservative.)

Of course, one can also read the professional reviews of any one of her books.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

I like how you magnanimously allow teens to engage in heavy petting. What the actual fuck. Do you live your life in a teen drama movie? A soap opera comic strip?

“oh yes Robert, pet my genitalia in a heavy mannor, but lets not go all the way because that will break my precious little virgin heart who is not 20 yet”

Also thank you because the way they are using trauma is really bothering me. Getting rejected or having bad communication is nothing like sexual trauma. Not even close.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

When the girl who use to have sex in the grave yard is telling you your being creepy, you being creepy.

I thought most folks had sex in a graveyard at least once. ??? Is that not a common thing? Everyone I know who fooled around as a teenager did it in the cemetery at least once, and so did I.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Catalpa

As far as I can tell, the logic is that teens looking for one-night-stands will obviously go out and find adults to sleep with, and not tell them their age, thereby “tricking” the adults into committing statutory rape.

I read it as even worse, as suggesting that rape is excusable if a man thinks he was tricked. It’s rape apologia (or sounds like it at least).

@NautaliaC

“a bird in the hand is worth eating cheese on a Tuesday uphill both ways.”

Is this something your relatives told you? I’m not sure I understand. I recognize the “bird in the hand” bit but not the rest.

@Lenona
Can you please respond in your own words instead of quoting people we’ve never heard of? As any English teacher can tell you, just throwing evidence doesn’t make a good paper.

@Snowberry
Doing some research, it looks like Peggy also digs pretty hard into sex essentialism, which is a red flag.

She’s also got a rather interestingly coincidental name for someone who writes about sex.

Re: heartbreak
Honestly, I think it’s better if people learn to deal with it younger. When you’re 17 and heartbroken you have parents you can lean on and you have time. Less so later on.

@PoM
FWIW I’ve never fucked in a graveyard, but I’m an unusual case.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Maybe it was a function of where I lived at the time – if you didn’t have the capacity for privacy at the home of either party involved (as is typical for teenagers who want to hide from their parents that they are sexually active), you went to the graveyard. It was quiet, remote, rarely patrolled by the cops, and there was a convenient place to park.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

But hooking up for heavy petting very often just isn’t comparable to hooking up for “going al the way,” whatever that translates to.

Uh… This doesn’t sound right. Maybe it’s just me being asexual and assigning absolutely no value to sex, but I don’t see how being in a relationship that involves penetration with one’s genitals is somehow incomparable to a relationship where you are merely rubbing each other’s genitals.

I feel like those things are pretty close and neither is on the far side of some vast spiritual gulf that somehow causes trauma when the relationship ends.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@Policy of Madness

God i really hope so. But it was my favorite place to have sex in as a teen. Way better then the creak. To me it wasn’t convinces, it was actually romantic.

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

Oh, and if one partner blabs all the details on social media the day after, that’s causing heartache AND bullying, especially if others join in. As in quite a few news stories – or the young gay male college student in NYC who jumped off a bridge when he found out he’d been recorded. (I forget if the recording was done by a third party or not.)

Again, I don’t believe in directly saying to teens “don’t do this” unless we’re talking about possible criminal charges. But chances are they won’t be irritated by indirect warnings. Why would they?

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Is this something your relatives told you? I’m not sure I understand. I recognize the “bird in the hand” bit but not the rest.

“Uphill both ways” is a standard exaggerated joke about how hard things were in the old days (or in Yorkshire), e.g. “When I was your age we had to walk 20 miles to school, in hip deep snow, uphill both ways!”

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@Naglfar

I use to like imagine that there were a bunch of ghost arguing about it like that scene in Mulan with her ancestors.

I actually kind of miss being young and being able to do that. Where i lived if you got caught by some cops or graves keeper while doing that normally a walk of shame home and a call to your parents was the punishment. Now that I’m an adult I’d probably get arrested. Plus i don’t have an excuse to do that much now.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@Lenona

That’s outing someone sexuality in an extremely homophobic world. That is not the same thing as “sex hurts the teens oh no! only heavy gentialia petting allowed!” because like that boy would probably have done the same thing if a picture of him kissing another boy was leaked to the internet. Especially if his home life was abusive towards his sexuality. I have a friend who is 25 who still has not told her parents she is gay because she knows they won’t love her anymore and the rest of the family will shun her. They have made that very clear.