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Incels agree: If guys don’t have sex in high school they’re ruined for life

“Teenagers” in love: Detail from cover of Teen-Age Romances

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By David Futrelle

It’s not a secret that incels are obsessed with underage girls and the allegedly pure joys of teenage sex. Now they seem to have collectively decided that any guy who doesn’t manage to have sex in high school has lost out on something so magical that he is essentially scarred for life; he might as well rope, as they like to put it.

In a recent post on the Incels.co forums, an incel called Personalityinkwell declares, in all caps, that

SEX IN HIGH SCHOOL IS EVERYTHING

everything else is pure cope. …

The only thing that matters is having good genes/good parents so you can be a JB [jailbait] slayer, everything else is GIGACOPE.

Other incels expand on this theme. Mylifeistrash declares that

it’s the harshest pill

that you only got one shot in life and your genetics determined it all

no amount of self-improvement cope or money maxxing will ever make up for your teenage years

AmIjustDreaming agrees,

No amount of money or any other cope can make up for missed teen love. I’m almost 26 and the teenpill still gets to me. While I rotted playing video games, everyone else was having their first kiss, sex, teen love. It will fuck you up forever.

“Only teen love can make up for missed teen love,” laments LOLI BREEDING.

“Highschools need to offer euthanasia at the last day of school,” adds _wifebeater_.

The anger, naturally, stokes the incels’ feelings of entitlement.

“Its such a crime that we never got to fuck prime girls,” complains Ropemaxx.

And it’s not long before they start talking about the age of consent in the Phillipines.

Even aside from the pedophilia, an undercurrent in almost all incel discussions of sex, this is all just bullshit. There’s nothing magical about having sex as a teenager; it’s exciting, to be sure, but it can also be awkward and even a bit embarrassing, as no one knows what they’re doing at first. Sex can actually be a lot better for everyone once both partners have had a little more (or a lot more) experience.

And sex isn’t everything; it’s certainly a pleasant part of life, for those who are into it, but you can live without it. And lots of people do, living through “dry spells” than can last years. Not having sex in high school doesn’t make you special; it doesn’t even make you all that unusual, given that the average age at which Americans have sex for the first time at is 17, with the percentage of high schoolers having sex dropping below 50% in recent years.

That’s right: MOST PEOPLE in high school aren’t having sex.

Yes, it sucks to go through high school dateless. But there are worse things in life. And you have the rest of your life to make up for lost time. Move the fuck on, dudes; stop fixating on something you cannot change.

There are some guys whose lives basically peaked in high school who spend the rest of their lives trying to recapture what they felt the day they scored the winning touchdown. And they won’t shut up about it. Incels are doing something similar, only backwards, fixating on their sexual failures in high school and never shutting up about them. I can’t decide which group is more pathetic, but I know that neither the aging jock or the aging incel is going to be happy until they clear the resentment and self-hatred out of their heads and start living in the present.

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Brian M
Brian M
1 month ago

Polk High!

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

I didn’t have sex in high school. Honestly, I didn’t care then and I don’t have regrets about it now. At the time, I had better things to do, and never once in retrospect have I thought my life would be better had I had sex in high school.

And you have the rest of your life to make up for lost time.

That’s only if you can move on instead of moaning about the past.

I can’t decide which group is more pathetic, but I know that neither the aging jock or the aging incel is going to be happy until they clear the resentment and self-hatred out of their heads and start living in the present.

The incel is more dangerous and more pathetic IMO. The aging jock is probably unhappy, but it’s probably more likely that he’ll eventually move on and find something else to do, unlike the incel. And the aging jock seems slightly less likely to go on a terrorist rampage.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

They always think that only sex will validate them but then also they always think that sex only equals intercourse.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Stacey

they always think that sex only equals intercourse.

This belief seems very widespread outside the manosphere as well, especially in fundamentalist/conservative circles (e.g. the “saddlebacking” incident). And in my experience a lot of people don’t think oral or manual stuff counts as sex.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

This is just getting back to basics. Or at least it’s what incels where harping about when I first heard about them, and it comes up every now and again.

So, yet again: Openly slutty, yet a virgin until 26 because I was too busy focusing on education and career. First time wasn’t anything special and didn’t change my life that much. From my current perspective, I don’t particularly think that it would have been somehow different or life-changing for he better if I had gotten laid in high school. But hey, maybe it’s different for other people. I’m not a delusional, entitled teenage boy and obviously can’t speak for those who are. 😛

Though if they’re harping about it again, it might mean there’s a bunch of new younger recruits. Kind of sad.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Naglfar

And in my experience a lot of people don’t think oral or manual stuff counts as sex.

Those kind never even make it anywhere near my realm.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

teenpill

When you put ‘pill’ as a suffix to every word in the dictionary, it kind of loses its meaning.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@WWTH
Whatpill dopill youpill meanpill?

All joking aside, it does annoy me how they attach it like that. Sort of like how it annoys me that they attach “cel” to the end of so many words.

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

I think it might be a good idea for everyone, whether they read this forum or not, or whether they have sons or not, to find ways to communicate the following to teen boys:

“First of all, teen boys lie to each other all the time about how much experience they’ve had. Second, pursuing one-night stands is sort of like buying lottery tickets – you get a thrill for a short while, but then you have to start all over again, because you’re not willing to pursue a full-time job or a long-term relationship, so you’ll just become increasingly angry and frustrated, since what you really want is fun without the work. Third, if women can tell that you don’t want a long-term relationship, why would you expect them to want a short-term relationship? Especially with someone who doesn’t like work in general?”

Not to mention that it’s kind of amazing that any modern young incel could ignore the very real danger of having to pay child support. Reportedly, that IS why teen sex has gone down a bit, at least.

And as I’ve mentioned, a young woman has every right to privacy and discretion. Just because she’s NOT entitled to a phone call after a one-night stand doesn’t make it civilized for the man to go bragging to his classmates – or on Facebook. So if the average incel is hoping to do just that, well, again, he shouldn’t be surprised when women sense that and reject him, over and over.

Bottom line: I have never heard of a self-described incel who said that what he really wanted was to get married, some day. Which suggests that incels have no real interest in love or giving – or, at least, teen incels have trouble grasping the idea of a relationship that lasts even a year and that might even include emotional give and take.

Anonymous
Anonymous
1 month ago

That reminds me of a song … https://youtu.be/wE-FNDxoqFE

And another song. https://youtu.be/jrxI_euTX4A

personalpest
personalpest
1 month ago

There’s a cycle I go through when I read articles about incels.

1. I feel sorry for them because they’re obviously in so much pain.

2. Then I remember that they’re suffering because of their own poor decisions and unpleasant personalities.

3. I also remember that these guys are choosing to be miserable instead of getting the help they need.

4. I wind up feeling less sorry for them.

5. Still, I hope they deal with their problems, to spare both themselves and everyone they might victimize. Incels still have the potential to become better, happier people if they only try. At least I hope they do.

Does anyone else have a similar reaction?

P.S. Thanks for writing about incels, David. You never know when you might actually reach one of them.

varalys the dark
1 month ago

I didn’t even realise I was a lesbian until three months before the end of my time in the upper sixth (I just thought I was asexual before that and was perfectly content with it) and as it was a shithole homophobic school in a shit hole town I decided I could wait a few months and start having all of the sex that my free university education was gonna supply me with (that sorta happened. If you squint a bit) oh the 90’s. You certainly were the Gay Nineties for me. *gets lost in reverie*

Paireon
Paireon
1 month ago

Yo, incels. 41-year-old cishet white man who’s still a virgin here. Gonna tell it to you straight: No, no it’s not. My life is far from perfect, true, but losing my virginity a quarter of a century ago is unlikely to have made me much happier now. Stop blaming your looks and/or women (especially women) for your loneliness and unhappiness. I don’t, and weirdly enough it actually helps me be at least a bit less unhappy.

The main reasons why you’re unhappy are such: 1- The world we live in is crappy, even for many otherwise privileged folks like you and me. 2- You’re entitled little assholes with shit personalities bitter over life not giving you on a silver platter more than the likely significant amount you likely already have, and are too lazy and/or cowardly to either accept it or work for it. 3- Point number 2 plus lack of introspection leads you to blame anything but your own putrid inner landscape for your woes, so instead of working to improve yourselves you go the easy way of blaming stuff you can’t change or others not changing to suit your selfish, lazy, arrogant needs. 4- You’re so lazy and entitled you’d rather wallow in a self-destructive, self-loathing pool of misery, with frequent lashing out at the outside world (especially women) because it’s easier for you to do than anything constructive.

Look, I know what it is to live in a society that seems to put “alpha males” on a pedestal, and I know what longing for companionship is. But you’re doing it wrong. What you seem to want is a creepy Stepford-ish Japanese-made* loli sex robot rather than an actual, fully fleshed-out (pardon the pun) human woman, and lemme tell you, even if you got that, your lives would be just as empty and unfulfilling except for bragging rights that only other empty losers would accord value to. Oh, and you’d have someone to boss around and abuse, but as it turns out that’s also a terrible thing and hardly reason to be proud. Going from bullied (for those of you who were bullied, who I suspect is a quite lesser number than you’d think) to bully is a shit life goal.

*Not a dig at the Japanese, they’re actually working on making fully functional sex robots.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

SEX IN HIGH SCHOOL IS EVERYTHING

Well, shit, high school has only been around for, what, 150 years, tops? One wonders how our ancestors could have survived when they were never able to have high school sex.

Battering Lamb
Battering Lamb
1 month ago

All joking aside, it does annoy me how they attach it like that. Sort of like how it annoys me that they attach “cel” to the end of so many words.

Kind of like scandals and ‘-gate’. That also annoys me.

As for the incels. AMAB here, didn’t ‘lose my virginity’ till i was 28 which didn’t change my life all that much. What did change my life a lot was proper therapy, a healthy romantic relationship and a job that’s really satisfying (and where my disability is not an issue).

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

@Lenona: Whoa whoa hold on there.

I personally am very much not into one night stands, but some people are, and they’re perfectly happy with them and don’t see them as a lazy replacement for a long term relationship. To suggest that is a form of slut-shaming in my opinion.
There are a lot of problems with the sexual education most teens receive, but I don’t think that “they should be told to avoid one night stands” is at the top of that list.

Lollypop
Lollypop
1 month ago

The incels should be less worried that they never got to have sex with “prime” women/children, (honestly always astonished they believe girls who are functionally underdeveloped are the “natural” choice of mate for grown men) and be more concerned that they are going to miss out, potentially FOREVER, on the magical joy of making a true and meaningful connection with someone. Whether it’s romantically, in a friendship, having a good relationship with their family, or simply sharing enthusiasm for a hobby or piece of fiction, their scorched earth policy in response to not getting exactly what they think they want must poison their whole existence.

I mean, I worry about all sorts of irrational stuff, and life is suffering and all that, but MY GOD they take wasting their life obsessing over pointless bullshit to a new and extremely self-indulgent level.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
1 month ago

SEX IN HIGH SCHOOL IS EVERYTHING

everything else is pure cope. …

You didn’t have sex in high school, so now your life is ruined. All you can do is try to cope with your problems. And coping is losing; roping is your only real option. Do I have the incel ideology correct? (Of course I do. It’s not complex.)

You might want to question this ideology. It’s extraordinarily limited and can only lead to misery.

Incels are a death cult. Do you really want to die just because you’re afraid to experience rejection.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

That make me puke. Maybe it’s not the worse thing they said on rate, but the pure, undiluted hatred so early in my morning is really nausea inducing.

Also, thoses guys have ruined their life, but I would hazard to say that they have ruined it themselves and would not have done better with sex.

occasional reader
occasional reader
1 month ago

any guy who doesn’t manage to have sex in high school has lost out on something so magical that he is essentially scarred for life

Wow, another scar ? I am already a bit of a patchwork, so one more does not mean a lot.
Hmm, with pseudos like “Loli breading” or “wifebeater”, you know you deal with lovely nice persons.
And that is a lot of copes. Probably them secretly wanting a cope of tea or something like that.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ battering lamb

Kind of like scandals and ‘-gate’.

I’ve got an interminable blocking of a right of way case on at the moment and all parties have started referring to it as “Gate-gate”.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@personalpest

Does anyone else have a similar reaction?

Sort of. I don’t really feel sorry for incels, but there is some stretch of time where I feel like we could maybe reach them, before remembering that they would never allow it and that they somewhat want to be miserable, as their world view depends on it.

@Battering Lamb

Kind of like scandals and ‘-gate’. That also annoys me.

Yes, this as well. That one I find especially annoying because AFAICT I can tell it is derived from the Watergate scandal, but in that case Watergate was just the name of the hotel, nobody calls the scandal “watergate-gate.”
And of course there’s the right wing outrage machine spinning everything into “-gates,” like GamerGate, ComicsGate, AnimeGate, etc.

@Penny Psmith

There are a lot of problems with the sexual education most teens receive, but I don’t think that “they should be told to avoid one night stands” is at the top of that list.

I agree. Society already heavily discourages relationships that fall outside of a long term monogamous cishet structure, and this is part of a broader cultural issue that won’t be solved by reinforcing part of it in teens. In pretty much every study, abstinence only sex ed increases the instance of sex and unprotected sex in particular, so it would be much better to explain safety than try to discourage sex in people who will try it anyway.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ naglfar & battering lamb

nobody calls the scandal “watergate-gate.”

What would you have to call a scandal involving contaminated water?

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

While I rotted playing video games, everyone else was having their first kiss, sex, teen love.

There’s your problem. If you don’t socialize with non-online people, you won’t get the benefits of non-online interactions.

That’s reductive, I know. Not everyone has the option to socialize in high school; outcasts are a thing. But incels don’t even try. They think their wrist circumference determines their fate, and hole up with their radicalizing friends in Call of Duty (or whatever) and soak in incel ideology. It’s sad because most outcasts are happy to leave high school and get out of that pressure cooker, and open up their socialization options, while incels just keep looking backward instead, as though high school were the best time of their lives.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@PoM

most outcasts are happy to leave high school and get out of that pressure cooker, and open up their socialization options

This is how I felt. My life got much better post-high school, and I admit I never fully understood the idea of high school being the best years of one’s life. Somehow, despite incels also having a bad time in high school, they’ve bought into that myth and as such can’t move on.

I’m curious how much of their world view on this is based on teen/high school coming of age films. They seem to think that’s what everyone else’s high school experience was like, despite it being very obviously fiction. Those movies are often problematic in a multitude of ways, but incels have taken it to a whole new level.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
1 month ago

I saw someone post once about how if only it had been the Waldorf rather than the Watergate Hotel, we could at least have the amusement of using “dorf” as a suffix.

@Alan Robertshaw:

What would you have to call a scandal involving contaminated water?

Flint? Walkerton? (Not actually funny, I realize)

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
1 month ago

Long ago, I posed for an artist who liked to tell me anecdotes, including about his student days in 1960s Paris which were less wild than he would have liked. He quipped that he used to go around muttering “Everybody’s getting laid but me.” He still managed to not turn bitter (and by the sound of it, things definitely picked up for him in the 1970s).

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ moon custafer

we could at least have the amusement of using “dorf” as a suffix.

Someone pointed out that Paris Hilton was one merger and acquisition away from being christened ‘Croydon Travelodge’.

Amtep
Amtep
1 month ago

-gate is so last decade. All the hip people use -ghazi. Waterghazi.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Amtep
Since GamerGhazi was an anti-GamerGate subreddit, would Waterghazi be people opposed to Nixon’s actions at Watergate?

Since I live in Massachusetts, the -gate I hear about the most is DeflateGate. Curious what would happen if I started calling the opposition to the scandal “deflateghazi.” Would probably get some weird looks.

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

Well said, Lollypop.

And Penny Psmith, maybe I should have clarified that what MIGHT be OK for some adults is often very bad for teens across the board. Sort of like having three drinks every night. There’s a reason that even most Europeans don’t allow 13-year-olds to drink like that. But even so, European parents aren’t obsessed with alcohol the way Americans are – they just SUBTLY encourage a certain restraint for teens that slowly gets loosened as their teenagers get older.

As I understand it, one-night stands are appealing and at least somewhat Mutually Beneficial to many gay male adults. Not so with adult lesbians, as a rule. Also, just because an ADULT female shouldn’t expect a phone call after a one-night stand, that doesn’t mean that any teen boy can – or should – expect any teen girl to LIKE the idea of a one-night stand in the first place. (A “summer romance,” maybe, but that’s a different story.)

My point is that all too often, what boys want is not what girls want, and if it’s wrong for a girl to pressure a boy into intercourse, it’s just as disrespectful for teen boys to get angry and frustrated when teen girls don’t want to treat genital play like shaking hands. For girls, that typically leads to heartache, which is why TEEN boys need to be taught, if not in these exact words, that they can’t expect to have regular one-night stands Before Adulthood, any more than they can expect to land a six-figure job before then. Something like that. (Oh, and if we can understand why it’s not polite to force people to talk about politics or religion in SOCIAL situations, how are propositions that different?)

It’s all about not harassing others – or making them feel exploited. Even though many otherwise civilized adult men honestly don’t understand why they can’t ask their female co-workers for casual sex on their lunch break in the same polite way they might ask them to play tennis, they still often need to be taught they can’t do that.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Lenona

European parents aren’t obsessed with alcohol the way Americans are – they just SUBTLY encourage a certain restraint for teens that slowly gets loosened as their teenagers get older.

IIRC in some parts of Europe teens are allowed to drink in school after age 16, so that’s a lot of loosening.

You seem to be pushing a one-size-fits-all model. This doesn’t work for everyone, as I know women who like one night stands and men who don’t. Instead of trying to force everyone into your model, it seems better to explain consent and how to find partners that want the same out of a relationship, as well as safe sex. Are teen boys going to have many one night stands? No, but they also shouldn’t be taught that it’s the worst thing they can do.

There’s also the fact that some people are aro and may not be interested in long term romantic relationships, and they should not be stigmatized for their orientation.

It’s all about not harassing others – or making them feel exploited. Even though many otherwise civilized adult men honestly don’t understand why they can’t ask their female co-workers for casual sex on their lunch break in the same polite way they might ask them to play tennis, they still often need to be taught they can’t do that.

Yes, teen boys should be taught this. This is not the same as telling them that they can’t ever have one night stands. There are places (clubs, apps, etc) where people interested in casual sex can find it, and they should instead be taught to look there and be respectful.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

I just want to say this:

The range of what a healthy, consensual, mutually fulfilling and pleasing sexual relationship can be is a really wide range.

@Naglfar

Society already heavily discourages relationships that fall outside of a long term monogamous cishet structure

I know. Origin of slut shaming that it took me a long time to get over.

K.
K.
1 month ago

What would you have to call a scandal involving contaminated water?

FlintGate? 😉

Ariblester
1 month ago

Naglfar wrote on
August 14, 2020 at 8:54 am:

@Amtep

Since GamerGhazi was an anti-GamerGate subreddit, would Waterghazi be people opposed to Nixon’s actions at Watergate?

Since I live in Massachusetts, the -gate I hear about the most is DeflateGate. Curious what would happen if I started calling the opposition to the scandal “deflateghazi.” Would probably get some weird looks.

I feel that “-ghazi” should be reserved for events that (much like their namesake Benghazi) conservatives try extremely hard to read conspiracies into. So, Gamergate is more accurately Gamerghazi (which probably explains why the subreddit is called that), and Pizzagate Pizzaghazi.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

I hated high school. I got the whole “she could be kind of hot if she wanted to be but she’s a weirdo” thing because I didn’t understand who I was and how to express what I wanted. I hated what people expected me to wear on some stupid little date with some high school boy. If I actually did like the guy, which was rare, then those stupid little “cute” teenage girl clothes absolutely wasn’t what I wanted to wear to be with him. It would upset me. I thought I was showing love and was proud of what I chose and would not only get called a slut but laughed at by girls. Life was so much better in college and after when I could be around artistic people and learned that what I like sexually is something a lot of other people do also and can be the basis for beautiful art.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

 a one-size-fits-all model. This doesn’t work for everyone, as I know women who like one night stands and men who don’t. Instead of trying to force everyone into your model, it seems better to explain consent and how to find partners that want the same out of a relationship, as well as safe sex. 

Most important is to teach boys that whatever that sexual relationship whether short term or long term or monogamous or not a woman has 100% absolute right all times unconditionally to choose her own partner and how she lives, acts, dresses, talks and everything else doesn’t change that ever.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ stacey

Origin of slut shaming

An early example of that might be how ancient Greeks, especially Athenians, used to refer to Spartan women as pahinomerides.

That means ‘thigh flashers’; because of the short skirts they wore.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

@personalpest

Does anyone else have a similar reaction?

Nah. Sometimes a singular, specific incel will get me feeling a sort of remote pity – usually the ones who seem bewildered at the company they’ve fallen into – but mostly they just evoke irritation at the waste of potential, and contempt for their whining and self pity.

I’m … not a terribly sympathetic person. 😛

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Stacey

Most important is to teach boys that whatever that sexual relationship whether short term or long term or monogamous or not a woman has 100% absolute right all times unconditionally to choose her own partner and how she lives, acts, dresses, talks and everything else doesn’t change that ever.

Yes, definitely that should be a part of educating about consent. Another thing which is important would be to do the reciprocal action for girls and empower them to know that they have a right to do all of what you mentioned.

I would also advise explaining that the same dynamics apply for same gender relationships, that participants can withdraw consent at any point and have the rights above.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Alan

Oh that is so awesome! You always bring up the coolest stuff!

I love working with the shape of my whole legs and my outfits are naturally leggy looking on purpose. I hate skirts though because they prevent a clean continous line from thigh to hip and waist unless slit high but then even so because it’s a skirt if it’s opaque material even if slit it’s still covering me in the front in a way that messes up the continuity and relationship of the contour of my lower body to my legs.

But that Spartan girl is still way cool.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Of course. Not meaning to imply just for woman-man relationship at all. It was just something important to me to point out. But thank you for adding that.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ stacey

they prevent a clean continous line

Ah, now you’ve reminded me of a recent discussion about that philosophical debate as to whether ‘beauty’ is objective or subjective. All the stuff about golden ratios and the lines of the Parthenon.

My contribution of course totally lowered the tone. Someone raised about clothing with slight flaring (supposedly that’s inherently elegant) and I mentioned how I thought horses with feathered feet looked better. Which they do.

You might find this interesting though.
https://www.moma.org/explore/inside_out/2010/04/06/listening-to-marina-abramovic-art-must-be-beautiful-artist-must-be-beautiful/

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Alan Robertshaw

that philosophical debate as to whether ‘beauty’ is objective or subjective.

My 2 cents is that it’s subjective. If it were objective, we would assume that all cultures worldwide would find the same proportions, appearance factors, etc to be attractive, but this isn’t the case. For instance, the people of the Andes believed that stretched skulls were more attractive and practiced skull deformation, while many other cultures would view it as ugly. Or that fashion trends change so often. If there was an objective standard of beauty, presumably fashion wouldn’t change so often.

And that’s before even discussing individual/subgroup preferences. Like how most men don’t find muscular or generally masculine women very attractive, as evidenced by the Abby in TLOU2 meltdowns, but a lot of sapphic women do.

I mentioned how I thought horses with feathered feet looked better. Which they do.

I agree.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

There’s probably some slight genetic basis in what is considered beautiful / tasty / fun.

Well, there *are* some genetic basic in taste for extremely basic stuff, like shit being foul smelling and tasting, and extremely bitter stuff being bad. Babies inherently like sugar and dislike a lot of stuff, too.

But outside of that, it’s probable, if not proven, that there is a generic trunk for beauty, heavily customized by each individual. It’s probably way more basic than one might first think ; probably people find inherently having one head and four limb more attractive than 0 head and six limbs ; people probably find eyes good-looking regardless of their culture, that kind of thing. That kind of seriously basic stuff.

I believe it’s somewhat similar to language in that it’s pretty hard to distinguish whatever is innate to all human and what is cultural. As in, all known languages use subjects and verbs, and it’s hard to say if the first language had subjects and verbs and everything developped from it. There could be similar effects on beauty standards, with some dating back to when there were a single african population but still being culturally-transmitted and not genetically transmitted.

Hambeast
Hambeast
1 month ago

Naglfar – I think with all their talk of this pill that pill and all the different types of “cels” we should just start calling them Pillcels!

It’s kind of like all the new flavors of Oreos or Cheerios I see in the grocery store; I just kind of have to marvel at them in a bewildered way.

re: Horses with feathered feet – they are cool looking. When they’re clean (which they are usually not.) But there is something to be said about clean looking and feather-free fetlocks, and that something is: “Sure am glad I don’t need to shampoo my horses’s feet!”

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

Naglfar said:

“You seem to be pushing a one-size-fits-all model. This doesn’t work for everyone, as I know women who like one night stands and men who don’t. Instead of trying to force everyone into your model, it seems better to explain consent and how to find partners that want the same out of a relationship, as well as safe sex. Are teen boys going to have many one night stands? No, but they also shouldn’t be taught that it’s the worst thing they can do.”

Um, you said “women” and “men.” I was talking about teens.

Of course I didn’t mean that a one-size-fits-all actually “fits” anyone. It’s just that, even though some people MIGHT be mentally mature enough to drive at age 13 – and desperate to do so – it would only cause more problems than it would solve to allow kids that age to take the test. The same would be for allowing 15-year-olds to join the armed forces or get married. In all of those cases, some teens are miserable about not being treated like individuals, but it’s better than the alternative.

In the case of sex, teens are simply not known for their consideration of other people’s feelings, health, or long-term futures. Even when they have to sit through school lectures on drinking and driving, plenty of them are thinking: “the rules don’t apply to me, because I drive BETTER after a few drinks – so when are they going to stop lying to me about that?” I’d be surprised if things were all that different when it comes to sex and understanding why consent is so important – or understanding that they’re not being unfairly “deprived” when they can’t get anyone to consent to intercourse before the end of high school or so.

In other words, it’s true that having a one-night stand isn’t necessarily a cruel thing to do, but when you’re a teen boy, there are too many ways it can go wrong (statutory rape charges if you don’t know the exact laws in your state, diseases, being accused of harassment when the girl doesn’t want what you want, breaking a girl’s heart when consensual sex affects her differently than she expected, nasty gossip started by third parties, pregnancy, etc.). So, while there’s no need to scapegoat one-night stands in so many words, teens clearly need to have all those hazards spelled out.

Yes, it’s kind of a drag for most – not all – teen boys that they can’t do what we used to do in medieval times – that is, get married as soon as the hormones kicked in – but back then, most people never got the chance to learn to read or do anything but back-breaking work, die in childbirth, or die in wartime. Learning to put up with other people’s rules is part of the price of a longer life and a secondary education. (Of course, COVID gives a whole new meaning to that sentence.)

Btw, in Erika Tamar’s 1992 teen novel, The Truth about Kim O’Hara, the protagonist, Andy, is maybe 16 and increasingly frustrated that he and his girlfriend haven’t had sex yet, even though he doesn’t want to get another girlfriend. (The novel is actually about a terrible, non-sexual secret that Kim eventually reveals about her past.) From chapter 13:

Andy: “I’d read in National Geographic about this tribe somewhere – I forget where, South Seas or something. As soon as a boy reaches puberty, they do a manhood ritual dance and then they give him his own private hut. The girls who’ve reached puberty go into his hut and have sex with him. If he especially likes one girl, he can invite her to move in with him and the tribe celebrates with a big feather dance. I could do without all that dancing, but the rest makes a lot more sense than the American way. I mean, you get a full blast of hormones before you’re fifteen, but you’re a pig if you pressure your girlfriend and you can’t get married until you’re twenty-something, so what are you supposed to do in the meantime?”

Again, he doesn’t seem to see the connection between early sex and a loss of real opportunities in adult life – or how the other rejected girls might feel. Want to bet the ADULTS of the tribe label them as “damaged property”?

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

probably people find inherently having one head and four limb more attractive than 0 head and six limbs

I’m not sure about that, there’s a lot of erotic art that shows people with non-standard numbers of arms and heads.

@Lenona

Um, you said “women” and “men.” I was talking about teens.

You said teen BOYS. And what people learn as teens they transfer to adulthood.

In other words, it’s true that having a one-night stand isn’t necessarily a cruel thing to do, but when you’re a teen boy, there are too many ways it can go wrong (statutory rape charges if you don’t know the exact laws in your state, diseases, being accused of harassment when the girl doesn’t want what you want, breaking a girl’s heart when consensual sex affects her differently than she expected, nasty gossip started by third parties, pregnancy, etc.). So, while there’s no need to scapegoat one-night stands in so many words, teens clearly need to have all those hazards spelled out.

There are risks, and teens should be educated on them. There’s a difference between educating on risks and trying to tell everyone they must fit society’s model of monogamous long term relationships, which just doesn’t fit everyone.

Yes, it’s kind of a drag for most – not all – teen boys that they can’t do what we used to do in medieval times – that is, get married as soon as the hormones kicked in

That’s definitely not what I was advocating. I was saying that not everyone, of any gender, can work with the typical monogamous cishet relationship style. I am not advocating child marriage.

Again, he doesn’t seem to see the connection between early sex and a loss of real opportunities in adult life – or how the other rejected girls might feel. Want to bet the ADULTS of the tribe label them as “damaged property”?

The “labelling girls as damaged property” is a part of the same patriarchal system that enforces monogamy for everyone, which just doesn’t work for everyone.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

Um, you said “women” and “men.” I was talking about teens.

But what we should be teaching teens is what they will need to know as an adult. We shouldn’t teach teens unnecessary lessons on how to be teens; I also disagree that “don’t have one night stands” is something teens ought to learn just because they are teens. Girls who sleep around are slut shamed to the degree that just a rumor that a girl is “easy” ruins her reputation whether or not it is actually true. A girl who likes sex should not be shamed. Telling teens not to engage in one night stands would contribute to an already-toxic slut shaming culture.

Not all sex needs to be in service to a LTR to be valid. Not even all girls want it to be. Not every girl gets her heart broken when she doesn’t get a call the next morning but all girls suffer if they are slut shamed. Let’s not contribute to that happening.

Lenona
Lenona
1 month ago

Mind you, I’m NOT saying that teens are incapable of having relatively happy sexual relationships that aren’t one-night stands. Old-fashioned liberal Wendy Kaminer (she was born in 1949, graduated from Radcliffe, became a lawyer and is a former ACLU board member) wrote in her ironically titled 1995 essay, True Love Waits (that’s also the title of one of her essay collections) that the trouble with abstinence education is that the message is “abstain until marriage or death, whichever comes first.” Plus, of course, the message that you’ll find the right spouse by age 21 or so.

Excerpt:

“‘What are the benefits of abstinence?’ I asked a group of five women friends who came of age in the 1960s. They were momentarily stumped. Everyone readily recited the evils that abstinence avoided – disease, unwanted pregnancies, and considerable heartache — but we had trouble identifying the goods that it offered, even to young women in their late teens. Self-discipline was rejected; celibacy seemed more like self-denial. Finally someone pointed out that chastity might help some young women achieve autonomy. It allows them to focus on satisfying themselves instead of pleasing their boyfriends. It puts school before sex. But chastity is a path to autonomy only when it is divorced from romance.

“The sexual revolution didn’t eliminate romance but did temper it a little, with experience, and the opportunity for autonomy without abstinence. At least, that’s how it looks in retrospect…”

(snip)

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