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Now is the time for A Voice for Men to ask: “Are we the baddies?”

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By David Futrelle

In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.

Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.

If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.

On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”

Down the memory hole he goes.

Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.

You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.

Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.

Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.

In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.

I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?

H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.

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Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

The problem with individuals like @ Alan Robertshaw is that they have, in their own minds, convinced themselves, that they are wise.

Oh I am well aware of my own ignorance; trust me. I’m reminded of how thick I am on a daily basis.

I am lucky though in that I get to move in circles where there are some genuinely very smart people. I try to learn from them and hope I can at least pick up some of their knowledge through osmosis.

From what I have gleaned from them, I suspect they would be able to demonstrate why your arguments show a fundamental misunderstanding of biology, anthropology, history, culture, and a whole host of other disciplines.

Humans have been around for anywhere between 400,000 and 3 million years, depending on how you categorise such things. That’s not as impressive as some other species of course; but it’s not a bad start. We do seem to be getting the hang of the survival thing.

If we do face any (within our control) risks as a species; that’s because of our abuse of the environment. So if you want to argue white people are a threat to themselves; then perhaps that should be your starting point?
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Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

Yes, his behavior around jews really are red flag for actual antisemitism. As in, you can find a lot of nazi and far right with thoses exact sentiment. Especially when he talk of Ashkenazi Jews, since, you know, it’s often used as a dog whistle to exclude jews that are not white enough.

Israel is, quite bluntly, the last remnant of colonization. It’s an european colony, who *do* have a good reason to still exist, but a colony nonetheless. Until we found an actual solution (and none are in views), there will be perpetual trouble. I personally believe that Isreali probably should just be resettled somewhere in western Europa given that it’s european countries that though they could give land willy nilly to solve problem they caused.

Also, the disappearance of either jews or israeli would be a big cultural loss, but nothing more. Once again, no ethnicity are special, and there’s no difference, genetical or otherwise, justifying to distinguish an ethnicity. The human race is *way* too uniform for that.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Alan Robertshaw : the truly impressive feat for manking is how fast it spreaded to pretty much every continent and every climate. Especially for big ass mammals, that a single specie can strive just as much in Reijavik than in Tombuctu is extremely impressive. We do better than rabbit, for example.

Also, I do believe you’re not exactly thick either Alan. I don’t have a working definition for intelligence, but you do seem to have a good memory , a working understanding of logic, and a willingness to use both, so you’re at the very least average. Probably better than average given how stupid a lot of people seem to be, but that might be my misanthropy speaking.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

I’m not sure from where AVN’s wittering on about the white race and Jews is coming, but it’s a racist and creepy place and I’m not interested in it. I’m not here to talk about how whites and white culture are endangered.

Go take your white racism fetish somewhere else, AVN. You’ve worn out your welcome with your bullshit.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

I personally believe that Isreali probably should just be resettled somewhere in western Europa given that it’s european countries that though they could give land willy nilly to solve problem they caused.

Wouldn’t that require relocating ~9 million people to a region of the world historically hostile to them? I’m not sure that would solve more problems than it would create. It would also deny Jews access to holy sites in the Middle East such as the Western Wall.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 month ago

@AVN – I think it’s time for a troll challenge. Lucky you, it’s an easy one! Here we go:

Use the same email for every comment, or we’ll ask David to ban you.*

Voila! Very easy.

*note: we still might, you’re spewing a bunch of dogwhistles, friendo.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ ohlmann

you do seem to have a good memory

That’s my trick. I’m lucky enough to have a good memory and I read a lot. So if a topic comes up I can usually cobble together a response from cleverer people’s previous observations. It results in a reasonable facsimile of intelligence; but you could probably replace me with a decent card index system.

Luzbelitx
1 month ago

Ow, man!

I missed the troll hunt and the geeky talk?

Nice going, me!

*retreats grumpily into the lurking hole*

Viscaria
Viscaria
1 month ago

You know, I predicted that AVN would come back to say “How can I be a white supremacist if I’m not even white? Checkmate!” But I also predicted that he would be like, “Oh, nonono, you misunderstand. I’m not advocating the establishment of white ethnostates myself; I am simply trying to learn the feminist position on the creation of white ethnostates. I am a mere seeker of truth. Pay no attention to the fact that I talked about Muslims going back to ‘their countries’ as if they don’t and could never belong in white-majority countries. That was, um, a typo.” But nope. I was way off on that. He is fully leaning in to the racist, fascist, “””””great replacement””””” stuff.

– The reader should try and let this ‘sink in’ to his subconscious brain.

That sink knocked on my door, and it kept trying to conceal the fact that it was emblazoned with a giant swastika. That sink can stay the hell out of my house.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Nagfljar : it’s not very realistic to actually do, but it would be justice. It’s one of thoses where what would be right create a massive amount of logistic and other moral problems.

The whole situation was started by Europeans who exported a bunch of unliked europeans somewhere else as a compensation to trying to purge them. In addition, what solutions will there be other than relocating either jews or palestinians ? The current situation is jews trying to make an ethnic purge without it being too visible.

Jerusalem is holy to three religions, so I see 0 reason to say that you need a confessional state for any of thoses religions. Maybe an atheist structure that would allow time and ressources to allow people to visit this for their religious need at most, but jews don’t have more of a right to thoses places than christians or muslims. It’s not like Mecca or the Vatican who are of importance for a single religion.

While there is antisemitism in Europa, I do believe it’s pretty much the place with the less of it, including Israel. Maybe tied with the USAs. Other options would be to give them the mean to live on the Moon I guess, but current Israel definitely isn’t a more friendly or rooted in their past place than Europa.

@Alan Robertshaw : if they were a definition of intelligence, “good memory” would probably be in it. And as a software engineer, a decent card index system isn’t the easiest thing to create :p

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

I do believe it’s pretty much the place with the less of it, including Israel. Maybe tied with the USAs.

Hate crimes against Jews have been rising for the last 5 years, so I don’t think it would be very safe. Plus, which European country would allow in 9 million displaced Israelis? And how does one convince people who have settled an area for generations now to leave and move to a new one where they know nobody, don’t speak the language, and have nothing?

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

@AVN

Hi. I am a Jew, I am not breeding stock, and I do not support your genocidal vision of Israel “winning”. Get the utter fuck out of here with your eugenics bullshit.

@All

I wonder how much it would blow this creep’s mind to learn that the majority of Muslims are Southeast Asian.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Cyborgette

Hi. I am a Jew, I am not breeding stock, and I do not support your genocidal vision of Israel “winning”. Get the utter fuck out of here with your eugenics bullshit.

So much this.

C.A.Collins
C.A.Collins
1 month ago

Wow, this thread attracted two (2) trolls?
That’s sort of impressive. Think Troll II is a sock?

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@C.A. Collins
I don’t think he’s a sock because their writing styles are very different. He could be, but I’m not sure Skimmingway could put aside his shitty purple prose long enough to be AVN.

Edit:
I have also just received word that Skimmingway’s comments are now displayed on FSTDT. I’m guessing one of the regulars here submitted them.
https://fstdt.com/QL7M_D9DX5D.9
https://fstdt.com/SRKK_QNKCYKZ9

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Nagfljar : given that there are terrorists attack everyday in current Israel, it’s absolutely certain that an Israel in Europa would be a lot safer.

As for “installed for generations”, well, the thing is that they are here since less than a century (so I guess more than on generation, but not a lot of them), and they did worse than what you describe to the original inhabitant. While that still cause logistical and moral issue, I really don’t have much sympathy for any israeli that would need to move and need to learn a new language and find new footings. The country was built on forcing that on people.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

it’s absolutely certain that an Israel in Europa would be a lot safer.

Europe isn’t free of terrorism either, and I get the feeling that a large number of Jews moving in could inflame a lot of white nationalist groups there. Essentially it would create a new refugee crisis.

they did worse than what you describe to the original inhabitant.

You are correct that the government and military of Israel have done awful things. However, we must distinguish the actions of a state and its citizens. In the last Israeli election, most voted against Netanyahu’s corrupt Likud Party, and it seems wrong to punish millions because their government is bad. Do you propose punishing 350,000,000 Americans because Trump and the Republicans are evil? The actions of the United States domestically and worldwide are unambiguously worse than anything Israel ever did. The effects of such an action would disproportionately be felt by those with less resources, not the wealthy and politicians who are at fault.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

Hi, sorry to barge in without reading most of this mega-thread, but I’ve noticed the discussion on the philosophical hypothetical option of moving all Israelis (presumably meaning Jewish Israelis, there are about 20% people with Israeli nationality which are non-Jews, mostly Arabs), and I would just like to register a “please, can we not?”.

I am Israeli. I was born here. My father was born here. My mother was born in Egypt (yes, there are Jews that are not European, let’s not forget it and the further complication this would present to your plan). This is my homeland, my culture, my language, my whole centre of life. To suggest that Israelis should be “relocated” to Europe is to dismiss all of that. So it’s not just the logistical issue of “where would those people live”, it’s not just about safety, it’s also just the basic injustice of tearing people away from their land.
And yes, I acknowledge the fact that the Zionist settlement of Israel has involved (and is still involving) a lot of injustices toward the local residents of the land. But there needs to be a better way of handling those injustices that doesn’t just look at living breathing people as gamepieces to be moved at will. It’s similar to the suggestion that the people of the Americas be similarly “relocated”, because of the injustices of colonisation, and is similarly problematic.

Ariblester
1 month ago

Cyborgette wrote on
August 12, 2020 at 8:33 am:

@All

I wonder how much it would blow this creep’s mind to learn that the majority of Muslims are Southeast Asian.

And that most of them live in Indonesia, which has the fourth-largest population of any country in the world (after China, India and the USA).

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Whites are the greatest enemy of whites.

This is actually true, but for a different reason than the troll thinks.

White people embrace policies that are bad for their own pocketbooks and bad for the environment/climate because their desire to see people of color harmed is greater than their desire to protect their own well being.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Penny

To suggest that Israelis should be “relocated” to Europe is to dismiss all of that. So it’s not just the logistical issue of “where would those people live”, it’s not just about safety, it’s also just the basic injustice of tearing people away from their land.

This is what I was trying to get at earlier in the discussion. You phrased it better, so thank you for adding that.

@WWTH

White people embrace policies that are bad for their own pocketbooks and bad for the environment/climate because their desire to see people of color harmed is greater than their desire to protect their own well being.

They’re also willing to destroy their own health to “own the libs.” By not wearing masks, they’ve resulted in thousands of deaths, many of which were probably white people.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
1 month ago

– Jews, particularly ashkenazi jews, are a tremendous asset for the human gene pool, due to their intellectual traits. If they perish, their DNA will be lost – Which would be a great loss for humankind.

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot?!!

As said above by Ariblester, “Women don’t deserve rights because they are useful; women deserve rights because they are people!” and this applies to ethnic groups as well.
Just, ugh.

@ Ohlmann:
I’ve said it elsewhere, but quite apart from all the creepiness, so many of these arguments start from the premise that fertile women are an incredibly rare and precious resource that must be hoarded. Given that humans currently number in the billions, I just don’t buy that.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Penny Smith : you know, I have heard the exact same complain from pied noir, the french colonists in Algeria. How they were here for a century. How it was *their* countries, with *their* custom, *their center of life, and locals unjustly wanted them out. How they were born here, and their parents too. How some also had local blood in their family from various origin.

The french Algeria also did pretty much all the bad thing that Israel is doing. (and then some, even if the most cruel and egregious part was during the independancy war). In a lot of way, Israel is behaving *exactly* like a colonial state, with the main difference – the key one – is that they don’t have a single benefactor country, so decolonizing is a lot harder.

Also, basically applying the basic injustice of tearing people away from their land is being done currently, but to the Palestinians. That we apply it to the israeli instead is exactly the same, it’s just that you prefer it to happen to people that aren’t you.

Nobody have a superior right to the Israeli land ; it’s just that, nakedly, Israel have a real army and the capacity to create nuclear weapons, and palestinians have smuggled weapons. It’s not that it’s your homeland, your culture, your language, your whole centre of life because it’s just as much the same for Israeli and for palestinians.

Of course, the basic blame for that problem is that the Europeans back at the end of WW2 decided for a solution that conveniently had almost no cost for them. Because of that, I am all in favor of solutions that primaly cost the trio of England, France and Germany, instead of palestinians.

(and in case people are curious : yes, of course, there is still a thriving french community of Pied Noir that dream of coming back in Algeria because it’s *their* country in their mind. It’s that kind of thing that prove that in the end, one of either Israel or Palestine will get entirely relocated or exterminated)

Chris O
Chris O
1 month ago

@Naglfar:

To Skimmingway, pretty much anyone whose political views lean one inch to the left of Augusto Pinochet is a Marxist.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

That we apply it to the israeli instead is exactly the same, it’s just that you prefer it to happen to people that aren’t you.

Penny explicitly said that they recognized and opposed the injustices done to Palestinians. I’m not sure how you read that as “prefer it to happen to people that aren’t you.”

Nobody have a superior right to the Israeli land

Then why do you seem to want to relocate many of its occupants to an unfamiliar region of the world?

It’s not that it’s your homeland, your culture, your language, your whole centre of life because it’s just as much the same for Israeli and for palestinians.

So if it’s the center of life for both, why do you want to drive millions out?

Because of that, I am all in favor of solutions that primaly cost the trio of England, France and Germany, instead of palestinians.

To relocate Israelis would primarily cost the Israelis, who would be forced to leave their homes and move to an unfamiliar country.

As for the Pied Noir: I won’t pretend to be an expert on Algerian/French politics and culture, but it seems like this is a profoundly different situation. France exists, and the Pied Noir returned there when Algeria gained independence. As well, there were only about 800,000 of them, compared to 11 times that many Israeli citizens. On the other hand, there is no country which looks willing to take in 9 million Jewish refugees, and they do not have any single ancestral origin. As Penny mentioned, Jews from the diaspora have come to Israel from all around the world, many fleeing persecution in their native countries. The idea of Israel as a European colony, controlled by Europeans, is to erase the reality that Jews have never been accepted as European in many European countries and ignores the data: less than half of Israeli Jews report being of Ashkenazic ancestry.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

I know you said you have no sympathy for the Israelis, but still find myself a bit shocked at how much that is the case. And really trying not to be too blunt with what I think about your bullshit plan.

Naglfar has already made some good points; I will add to them the fact that, while I won’t claim for extensive knowledge about the Pied Noir, as far as I know they have always seen themselves as French, and have settled in Algeria because they have seen it as a part of France. This is so drastically different to the situation with Zionism. Are you seriously denying all of the connections of the Jewish people to the land of Israel? (I am not saying that those connections should take precedent over the interests of the local residents of that land, and as I said, I acknowledge the injustices that were done in the name of Zionism and hope that our peoples will be able to find a solution for them; but I do want to point out that this isn’t a “standard” case of colonization, and saying it’s the “fault” of France, England and Germany is ignoring a whole damn lot of history about the relations of these countries with Jews and Zionists, to say the least, and I’ll stop now because I’m still in parentheses.)

And even going back to the logistical side, you are ignoring a whole lot of possible unfortunate racist implications (even besides the basic idea of sending thousands of people of Middle Eastern, North African, Ethiopian, Indian etc. roots to go live in Europe because reasons). I mean, how are you going to decide who gets sent away? Is it anyone with an Israeli citizenship? Like I said, there are about 10-20% of Israeli Arabs (some prefer the label Palestinian-Israeli, other prefer Israeli-Arab, or other variations), so you’ll be sending away some of the very people you are claiming to do this for to begin with. Or is this going to be based on ethnicity/religion (which, yikes), with the Arabs getting to decide whether to remain Israeli and leave to Europe or to receive a new Palestinian passport? Or is everyone going to receive that choice (and if a majority of Jews choose to stay with a new citizenship, how have you solved anything)? And it’s not just Jews that are a problem, because what will you do about Christians? Some of them are Arab Christians from long-settled communities, others are various shades of “newcomers”, from Messianic Finns to the African Hebrew Israelite Nation. So, are they all getting sent away too? Are they all staying, and only the Jews are being sent away? Or are they allowed to stay only if they are Arab, or if their families have lived here for a certain number of generations? And then, what will you do about mixed marriages (there aren’t many, admittedly, but there are some)? Any way you cut it, you’re going to have to make some very very problematic choices. Because it is a bullshit plan.

Saying Israel has driven people away from their land and mistreated them – and is still doing so, along with many other terrible things – is one thing, and you will not find me disagreeing with that. Saying that Israel should be relocated in its entirety to Europe is another thing, and I hope I can somehow make you understand the difference between the two stances, and the problematic-ness of the second.

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 month ago

Re: Israel, the only solution that really appears viable given the present day realities of the situation is essentially to give up the “Jewish State” bit and give everyone now within their borders full citizenship, voting rights and the whole shebang regardless of their ethnic origin or religious predilections. Acknowledge Arabic as a second official language, all that.

(For the record, as a white Yank, I wholeheartedly support Hawaiian sovereignty, and regularly argue that all non-Indigenous residents of the erstwhile United States retreat to the area which was ceded us by treaty, or seek citizenship in the nations which rightfully own that territory, under whatever conditions they may set.)

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 month ago

Yeah. What @Dalillama said.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Penny Psmith

Saying that Israel should be relocated in its entirety to Europe is another thing, and I hope I can somehow make you understand the difference between the two stances, and the problematic-ness of the second.

I agree, and this reminded me of a useful tool: the 3 Ds of antisemitism. They are used to distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from antisemitism, and involve checking for delegitimization, demonization, and double standards. In the case of Ohlmann’s proposal, there appears to be some level of delegitimization, as Israel is being viewed not as an independent state but as a colony. There also appears to be some degree of demonization, as they said they don’t feel sympathy for the people who are forced to move to a new country because of something their government did. There also is a double standard at play, as Ohlmann doesn’t seem to be arguing for the same treatment of other countries (like the US).

Edit: I agree with Dalillama that Israel should extend citizenship to non-Jews within the borders and they should have equal rights the same as Jews living there. That being said, I still think that Jews fleeing persecution in other countries should be allowed to move to Israel, similar to how the Beta Israel did during Operation Solomon.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

I agree that this seems the only viable solution. I have long believed in the two-state solution, but it seems like it’s becoming more and more difficult to make that work; one unified, democratic state, or some kind of federation, is definitely looking preferable. It has little chance to happen in the near future, with the racist winds blowing in Israel currently (and with all the other aspects of racial tension, terrorism, various flavours of international involvement, and so on), but perhaps in a later point we will all mature enough to make it a reality.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Penny Psmith
To me, the biggest issue with a 2 state solution would be custody of Jerusalem. I’m not saying it’s impossible to negotiate, but it would be difficult to get all involved parties to have a mutually agreeable plan for the city.

Then again, I don’t live in Israel so there is probably a lot of perspective I’m missing.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

San Marco it. Independant city state within Israel, but under it’s own control. It’s a workable solution – works for the Vatican, and is probably eventually going to happen to Mecca. Though that’ll be amusing to watch.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Threp
That was part of the original partition plan in 1948. The problem with that is that there are still multiple groups that would want to control Jerusalem, as it doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and the states would probably back these groups to control it indirectly. San Marino AFAIK doesn’t have multiple groups vying for control of it, so they avoid this problem.

As for Mecca, while I’m sure many would be glad to see it out of Saudi control, I highly doubt that the monarchy would let it go.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

I always kinda liked that idea, because I live in Jerusalem and it seemed like it would be neat to have a Jerusalem passport. 🙂 But I think it differs from the Vatican situation because of the various tensions involved (I mean, just look at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre as a sort of microcosm: it’s divided between several of the main churches, in an attempt to keep things equitable, but they keep squabbling, to the degree that there’s a stepladder on a balcony at the front of the church which has been there for decades and can’t be moved because it will mean something about the division of the territory. I don’t know, it’s complicated). And you get things like settler associations buying up houses which used to belong to old Jewish families who were killed and/or driven out in the 1929 riots, or just buying up Palestinian houses to create sort of enclaves (and you have Palestinian extremists threatening sellers with violence or even outright killing them), or using archaeology as a ruse to drive Palestinians off their land, and you have various bits that are actually not held by Israel but owned by foreign powers or churches, and several other complications, and this is just within the Old City and its immediate surroundings (and there is a lot of Jerusalem besides that – it’s the most populated city in Israel). Trying to make it a new autonomous territory will probably just add more complication, not reduce it. So yeah, I think the one-state / federation solution is probably going to be the best option, some day.

(Edit: Naglfar had already said all this much more succinctly, as I was typing.)

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

I always loved the fact that the keyholder for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is a Muslim (same family for generations, as I recall), since each of the Christian denominations don’t trust each other with the main door key.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Redsilkphoenix

I don’t know if this would cheer you up any, but I was recently listening to this 1980’s Bannanarama song (Venus) and thinking about how parts of the official video kinda reminded me of how you describe what you do with your guys.

The two characters in particular that most reminded me of what you describe are the black-haired witch (?) with the huuuuuge cape, and the she-devil in red vinyl.

Yes! They are me. 🙂 My outfits are bit different but yes definitely the overall aesthetic is me and my guys. I don’t have quite that many as the awesome women characters in the video look like they have. Five right now. All wonderful creative partners and gorgeous.

You are so nice to send that to cheer me up. What an awesome super-sweet thought.

After gross troll last night I started to try to alter an workout brief so it was cut like a bikini bottom. I needed it because of the strength, fit and look of the material (elastine and polymide) but it’s too low cut. It’s not an easy material to stitch without it bunching up but they are cheap so if it doesn’t work right I can try another. I’m going to wear it over tights and with matching sports bra that has a fancy complicated thin strap strappy design in the back and with a wide black belt to give a strong accent to the lines. It reminds me of a kind of retro 80s workout look and so the 80s Bananarama video made me think of that and kind of made that a theme for the night, which I like anyway. When I do this outfit with platforms and my hair in a ballet bun with John Frieda sheer blonde gel I end up with a look that we (partners and me) think is just the right combination of severe yet alluring and compelling. 🙂

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

@Threp:
Yes, exactly. It’s a mess.

(Meanwhile, the Protestants have basically gone “Oh, we can’t have a part of your fancy church? Well we don’t want it anyway, because you’re all wrong and Christ’s grave is actually in a different spot which we had found so there“. And they have a rather lovely garden a little outside the Old City walls. I don’t know how all those different sects divide it, if they even do at all. Again, it’s a mess.)

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

I’ll stay out of the politics of all this; but speaking of Israel; this is quite interesting.

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium-archaeologists-report-first-cremation-in-israel-9-000-years-ago-1.9066988

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 month ago

@Penny Psmith

Are you seriously denying all of the connections of the Jewish people to the land of Israel?

No, I’m denying that that ever constituted a moral claim to sole ownership of the place. The establishment of the present State of Israel was categorically wrong, morally and ethically* but it’s far, far to late to stop it, and now we need to deal with the world as it now stands.

* There’s nothing wrong with individual Jewish people, or groups of Jewish people, moving to that place and residing there, and never has been. The part where guns and bombs were used to drive out the existing residents crossed a line, though, and it was a great big neon line.

@Naglfar

To me, the biggest issue with a 2 state solution would be custody of Jerusalem. I’m not saying it’s impossible to negotiate, but it would be difficult to get all involved parties to have a mutually agreeable plan for the city.

The biggest problem with a 2 state solution is determining who gets what parts of an extremely limited supply of arable land and potable water. US States have enough problems woth dividing water among ‘states’ that are actually provinces of a larger nation, it would be far worse there.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Dalillama
I think Penny’s comment was replying to Ohlmann, who originally suggested forcing all Jews to leave for Europe. I don’t think they were suggesting an exclusive claim.

Penny Psmith
Penny Psmith
1 month ago

Yes, I was replying to Ohlmann; sorry for not making that clearer, I was just very upset by his stance (and in that specific bit you quote, by the idea that Zionism was basically just European countries sending people over to colonise for them) and rushed to comment.

I also happen to disagree that the creation of the state of Israel was categorically wrong, although, once again, I do not deny the injustices involved in it. I wish our history was better (and heck, our present too). But it’s almost 3am here and I’m not going to attempt complicated arguments.

(Also, she/her, just for future reference)

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Penny Psmith

Also, she/her, just for future reference

Ok, I’ll make sure to use those going forward. Apologies about my last comment, I wasn’t sure which you preferred so I used gender neutral ones.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Avn

This is why letting criminals reproduce is a grave error. When you give the criminal DNA as much of an opportunity to multiply as the non-criminal DNA, then you have basically given the malicious part of the human gene pool a fighting chance at survival. And from evolution’s point of view, that is anti-survival. Because, as mentioned before, survival is what it is all about.

Just go. I don’t know what you think you are achieving with your moral absolutism and eugenics, but it’s not feminism, it’s creepy, and it’s ahistorical.

By being ‘racist’ and ‘intolerant’ toward muslims, and being an ‘islamophobe’, one is being

Christian societies have done all that as well. Do you want to hate Christians as well? Are you really unable to grasp that as in most religions, the average person is not a fundamentalist?

Since you’ve also been concern trolling about LGBT people, I’ll add that there are LGBT Muslims and your “ideas” are not helping them.

Discovered a way to both legalize homosexuality and STILL keep the birth rate high enough so that the problem of white DNA dying out is resolved?

Race is a construct, there is no such thing as “white DNA.” Your whole argument is racist bullshit. There is no “problem of white DNA dying out” because not a single part of that sentence makes sense scientifically. Gay people have nothing to do with this, and you’re not helping your case by trying to drag them in.

Discovered a way to make BOTH left-wing and the right-wing win, at the same time?

Are you trying to suggest Nazbolism? I’ll save you the trouble, it doesn’t work.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ avn

Zakat is a sort of tax on muslims, for the sake of islam, one of the uses of which, is to fund the murders of non-muslims, in order to spread islam.

The Zakat foundation here spent the money on re-homing Grenfell survivors and bailing out people whose Universal Credit payments got delayed.

I’ll have to drop them an email and let them know they’re doing it wrong.

https://nzf.org.uk/about-nzf/financials/

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@AVN

You are gross and creepy and I resent how you mentioned something that can potentially be beautiful between consenting partners but talked about it in a creepy way.

Your intolerance of other cultures is offensive.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

I’m going back to design work now. More positivity.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

I don’t know much about Islam, is Zakat similar to the Jewish concept of Tzedakah? The names are similar, so I’d imagine so.

Viscaria
Viscaria
1 month ago

You’d think this racist, Islamophobic garbage pail would at least have the decency to use a consistent email that David could ban, but evidently he’s intent on forcing David to read and allow comment upon comment upon comment of filth, each one inexplicably split into 17 parts.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

@AVN

– And ensuring survival can not be achieved without self-preservation.

—>No preservation of self —> No preservation of one’s own kind —> No preservation of one’s own society —> No survival.

– And no survival = The end.

What kind of bizarre bullshit logic is this?

You’re aware that countless different kinds of human societies have existed and died out, and humanity has still survived, right? A change in culture is not obliteration.

“Preserving one’s own kind” is not key to survival. In fact, genetic diversity leads to a species being more adaptable and able to survive.

And leaving that aside, reproduction is not the same thing as survival. I’m never, ever, ever going to have children, and I’m surviving just fine. There is so much more to living than producing extra humans and trying to make sure they look like you. Now fuck off and take your racist garbage with you.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Viscaria
At this point I’m curious when David will pull the plug on this fellow, I would have thought he’s violated the comments policy enough by now.
As for why he’s using different emails each time, Rhuu suggested it might be because he wants his comments to appear later either to make the thread harder to read later or to make it look like we don’t object.

@Catalpa

“Preserving one’s own kind” is not key to survival.

Especially when “one’s own kind” is as arbitrarily defined as “the white race” is.