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Now is the time for A Voice for Men to ask: “Are we the baddies?”

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By David Futrelle

In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.

Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.

If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.

On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”

Down the memory hole he goes.

Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.

You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.

Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.

Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.

In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.

I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?

H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.

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Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved –

1 – I am sorry for not being able to reply for so long. Because my comment did not show up for quite a long time, I thought it never will, and did not look at the comments. Only just now I saw your comment, seconds ago.

2 – I did not know what cishet means. I looked it up and yes, I am cishet.

3 – I have bookmarked the link you gave me. Seems to be very interesting. I will start reading it, after posting this comment.

4 – Thank you so, very much for your assistance.

5 – Since I am a cishet, in addition to all this is being very new to me, I may make mistakes in what I write, like for example, saying the incorrect term instead of the right term that should be used – so PLEASE, please do not think that I did it on purpose.

And I will of course only listen and hear.

Thank you again.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Hambeast

It is so nice to see you! Welcome back!

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Naglfar

– Thank you very much for the welcome.

– Man! This feminism is some powerful stuff. I just looked up – intersectionality and just this one word has given me a glimpse at the fact that this world is world is complex, deep and brilliant. I am very impressed.

– I will now look at the side bar for info as you mentioned.

– And I was unable to reply promptly because as you said – my comment actually did not appear for quite some time. So I never realized that someone had replied to me.

Thank you again for your assistance.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Policy of Madness

– You are correct. I should look for information myself.

Thank you

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Hambeast
Yes, I mentioned the comic because of the idea of Jesus and Mohammed together. To be clear, I’m not endorsing it or the group that spawned it.

Hambeast
Hambeast
1 month ago

Thanks, Stacey! I’m usually around lurking and many of my infrequent comments turn out to be ‘drive byes’ because I forget where I dropped them and don’t check back. Did I mention I’m an old? Also, cannabis has kind of made the short-term memory thing a bit worse.

It’s been a good long while since I’ve seen a big, multi-page comment thread here and I’ve been enjoying myself greatly.

Valentin, it’s great to see you again, my friend! I really liked this

Sometimes trans people can mean all when they say fuck all cis people and I think that anger is justified actually. Even if cis person means well and tries to be good, ignorance can still cause harm. Even ‘good’ cis people are sometimes not good to be around if you are trans. Just like Black people benefit from Black only support groups or safe places, becuase sometimes yes, it’s all white people. And sometimes yes, it’s all cis people. That is what power and privilege can do. It makes ‘harmless’ actions harmful, becuase of lack of power in the oppressed group.

It’s a good reminder for those of us who would be advocates. Too bad it’s too long to fit on a t-shirt!

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
1 month ago

@Naglfar:
Yes, yes, I am familiar with it. An interesting idea, blinded by much of the same sort of ‘othering’ that it claimed to be against.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Jenora Feuer
The reference to Mohammed driving Jesus’s cab reminded me of it. It sounds like the setup to some sort of religion joke: “Mohammed is driving Jesus’s car…”

blinded by much of the same sort of ‘othering’ that it claimed to be against.

Indeed, I’d say this was the fate of New Atheism as a whole. Pretty quickly Dawkins et al were sounding almost exactly like the religious fundamentalists they claimed to be against, which of course meant that a lot fell into the same conservatism that the fundies were into. Last I checked he’s defending pedophiles and talking about how great “Western civilization” is.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Avn

Privilege can affect us all in ways we don’t realize and if we aren’t careful blind us to things that are unfair to others. I’m a white woman and benefit from white privilege and to be honest benefit from classist privilege sometimes but awareness and honesty help.

I hope you enjoy reading! I would pour over the textbook again and again in my first Intro to Women’s Studies class in college. It was like a whole new universe. It helped free me and started me on the path away from being ashamed of being seen as the thin little chatterbox blonde girl who would refuse to change out of her dance clothes after ballet class and demand to wear them longer.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Hambeast

I know, I come and go too! I like it when I get to see a good long troll-batting thread and love all the intelligent people here anyway even in the threads without creepy trolls.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

@ Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved

– Thank you for your reply, and attention.

– If possible, can I ask you certain questions?

– It is completely OK if you say no, by the way.

Thank you

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

@Avn

Your comment didn’t appear at first because you were in moderation. Moderated comments get released whenever David has a chance to look them over, but appear in the list in the order they were posted. Now that you are out of moderation (it seems) your comments should appear when they are posted.

Note, however, that WordPress is experiencing an issue right now where newly-posted comments don’t necessarily display properly. If this occurs to you, you can usually bypass the issue by deleting the comment number and page number from the URL, then reloading.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Questions asked in good faith generally find a warm reception here. Some people are more inclined than others to provide Feminism 101 stuff, but the others are likely to just ignore you and not jump on you. But like I said before, feminism is not just a single thing with a single view upon which all feminists agree. There are multiple branches of feminism with varying degrees of tolerance for the status quo. I lean more radical than most, and I have very little tolerance for the status quo. I feel like almost every aspect of modern Western society should be closely interrogated to find out what it’s really about, and who really benefits, and I believe that the current system is basically rotten to the foundations and would benefit from a complete overhaul starting from the ground assumptions up. There are other branches of feminism that aren’t quite so harsh, and so the answers you would get from me and the answers you would get from a more liberal feminist may not be the same.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@AVN

I just looked up – intersectionality and just this one word has given me a glimpse at the fact that this world is world is complex, deep and brilliant. I am very impressed.

Intersectionality is very valuable as a concept both within feminism and beyond, as it also is key in other civil rights movements.

One pro tip for the future is to steer clear of anyone calling themself a “gender critical feminist” (sometimes abbreviated as GC). Despite the name, it is often short hand for an ideology that uses pseudofeminist-sounding language to reinforce patriarchy and hate on LGBT people.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Policy of Madness

– Thank you for that very helpful post. I hope that this comment appears instantly.

– I have SO MUCH to ask, that I do not know where to begin.

– Since I am always at the risk of mansplaining, I will refrain from providing my input, unless it is necessary.

– I absolutely agree that the western society needs change.

– What kind of change, however, is what makes the difference.

– I, for my part, regardless of any other outcome, would first and foremost, like women to gain the status that women deserve.

– Which I believe is HIGHER than that of males.

– But I will leave it at this, for now.

– I actually have a LOT to say as well, but I prefer, for the time being, as Miss Stacey said – to listen more.

– Thank you

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Naglfar

– Thanks for the tips!

– I must admit, I knew that feminism is not exactly a clear-cut concept, but I did not know that it is this complicated.

– It is great to learn these new things.

– However, the more that I learn about feminism, the more my questions increase, instead of decreasing! Haha

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

Comments are still going to moderation, unfortunately. I am staring at the screen and reloading for the last 12 minutes. Nothing.

Robert
Robert
1 month ago

Welcome back, Hambeast!

You just reminded me of a Golden Age comic book, “Spacehawk” by Basil Wolverton. In one pre-WWII issue, a grotesque caricature of both Hitler and Mussolini – ‘Mussler’ – announces his plan for a surprise attack on Canada. His craven, bootlicking general staff enthusiastically endorse the plan, except for General von Hambeast, who bluntly warns him that it will end, at best, in ignominious failure.

He is, of course, correct.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 month ago

@AVN – your avatar keeps changing, which means you are probably putting different emails in the ’email’ field. Stick to one, and you should stay out of moderation. (Also, if you change your screen ‘nym/name, you will go back into moderation.)

Re: status for women – careful about saying ‘women deserve higher status than men’. That’s a strawman anti-feminists like to use. Feminists don’t want to be better, they just want to be equal. And an intersectional feminist wants all of the other privileges to also be addressed.

There is lots to learn and think about, in feminism. I am still learning, all the time! I’m grateful when people who are different than i am share their thoughts, struggles, and passions. It allows me to learn more, and to strive to be a better ally all the time.

I’m glad you are looking into it. I hope you learn a lot! Admitting that one was wrong about ones former beliefs is probably one of the most difficult things we can ever do, so congrats on that.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@AVN

However, the more that I learn about feminism, the more my questions increase, instead of decreasing!

That’s a good thing usually. It means you’re thinking about it deeply.

If you have any specific questions I’m happy to do my best to answer them.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@AVN

Since I am always at the risk of mansplaining, I will refrain from providing my input, unless it is necessary.

A man isn’t always at risk of doing that just by saying something at all but instead when he talks about something that he doesn’t really know about and expects women just to go along with it because he’s so used to women kind of deferring to him because he’s a man.

I think you will see more if you read the famous article Rebecca Solnit wrote about here experiences with mansplaining http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/13/opinion/op-solnit13?pg=1. Did you see it maybe already?

She is brilliant. I hope you reflect on what she wrote but if I had to say it I think mansplaining is mostly men being presumptuous that they always know more than a woman just because she’s a woman regardless of how much she really knows about the subject or her own experience with it. Men can afford to be presumptuous that way because of privilege.

Once I was talking with a group of people both men and women about what it feels like to me to be harassed and how I can’t thrive creatively when it happens all the time because of how stress inhibits creativity. There was a guy who said that shouldn’t really matter and he couldn’t see how that would make a difference for something like art.

That guy wasn’t an artist himself. He was engineering technician. And he’s never been harassed and felt pressured just for being himself. And he didn’t know that the week before the leader of my women artists group gave us an article from a psychology journal to a read about that and we had read and discussed it.

So he had no idea what the hell he was talking about while I lived it but he is used to women always thinking he’s the expert in everything and he thinks that’s how it should be no matter what the subject or person.

So he was definitely mansplaining the connection between harassment, stress and creative inhibition to me.

But if he was talking about data gathering in his lab and he was the only engineering technician there and I was listening that’s not mansplaining or ‘splaining of any kind because he’s talking about stuff that he actually knows about and that may be his lived experience.

And like Rhuu says watch out for sayings that are common antifeminist strawman claims like “if a man says anything at all it’s automatically mansplaining.” That’s a common antifeminist strawman but Rebecca Solnit and women like her show it’s not a man saying anything at all but a man speaking presumptively from a position of privilege.

Good for you for being willing to read and think!

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 month ago

@Jenora Feuer:

The highest speed of ADSL I can get here is a couple of MBPS. If there is higher speed ADSL that too must be limited to the bigger cities.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved

– Excellent explanation! And I believe you are absolutely correct.

– Let us try and get deeper into this (with your permission)

– Can you please explain to me, certain aspects that I am about to refer to?

– 1) What is a feminist’s ideal world like? In regard to the status of men and women?

2) What is YOUR ideal feminists world like? In regard to the status of men and women?

– When and IF you do answer these, the difference, if any, just MIGHT give us a value, that we will define as, let us say – X

– And then when we compare the results from let us say, other feminists, and then put the data together – We just MAY get a little closer to CLEARLY DEFINING feminism in our brains.

And THIS I believe is the ROOT of the problem –

– For example – Let us say that scientists wish to cure covid – Do you think they would be able to do so, without having a clearly defined idea of what covid actually is?

– Of course not.

Likewise – If we wish to cure misogyny, the cure for which is obviously feminism – Then would we be able to do so, without having a clearly defined idea of what feminism actually is?

– I believe not.

And hence, I consider it critically important, that we first, in the beginning itself, establish a clearly defined idea of WHAT exactly feminism is.

– And then dive deeper.

(Continued below)

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

(Continued from above)

To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved

– Let us say that someone is watching our planet, and he is trying to understand how our planet functions.

– What does he see?

– He sees 2 genders – Male and female

– He sees that female is the one bringing life to the planet.

– And he also sees that female is the one raising humans, sacrificing for them, and providing an indispensable service for the survival of the human species.

– And survival of human species = EVERYTHING.

Therefore – my question is this –

– Will this person watching the planet think –

1 – Female is more important than male for the survival of the species.

OR

2 – Both male and female are EQUALLY responsible for the survival of human species?

– Which one do you think is the correct option?

– Number 1 or 2?

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved

– Is it OK for a man to address a woman as – Mam?

– Mam VS Miss – Which one is better?

– Which one is more formal? And which one is more informal?

Again – you don’t have to, or need to, answer ANYTHING that I ask.

I am just asking, because I have to ask, because I HAVE to learn. But it is you who decides whether or not it is worthy of being answered.

– Thank you again for your replies, support, and attention.

Cheers.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved –

– I am starting to read the link that you gave me. Thank you for that!

– Forgot to ask –

– What is the meaning of – Niceguy (TM)? Is it a different, feminist version of the nice guy? Or is it merely feminists OWNING the term, as they should?

– What are your thoughts on alpha men?

– What are your thoughts on beta men?

– Are beta men fit to reproduce? Should beta men reproduce in the first place?

Thank you.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Rhuu – apparently an illiterati

– Thank you so much for the kind words!

– And you are absolutely on point, regarding what you referred to.

– And also email – Yes, you are correct that I changed the email. And now, I will create an email, specifically for this website, and then post only using that email. Comments going to moderation, and not appearing for hours, breaks the ‘flow’ so to speak.

– But more importantly, it gives me guilt – When a person, especially a woman has replied to me – And I am unable to reply that very instant, it is, in my mind, a kind of an insult for the woman.

– And so, it frustrates me a lot, for not being able to ‘be there’ when it was needed.

– Anyway, if I may ask you certain things?

– If we apply a standardized value to the average value, of average human, and then compare them gender wise, and put them side by side –

– So for the functioning of the world – Would, let us say, 1000 women on the left side, be –

– More valuable than 10000 men on the right side
– As valuable as 1000 men on the right side
– Less valuable than 1000 on the right side

Thank you!

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Naglfar

– Thank you for your assistance! Much appreciated.

– So let us begin –

– I saw your comments regarding muhammad and jesus. They were great! I am actually VERY interested in this area of feminism.

– So my questions are –

– What is the feminist position on islam?

– What is the the feminist position on muslims?

– And I realize, all too well, that there is not a generally accepted feminist position on all matters regarding issues such as these, but when I ask, and get the opinion of several invested, and dedicated feminists –

– And then put them all together, and compare the data.

– I might just get a better idea of exactly what is the DOMINANT, overarching theme, in feminism’s ecosystem, which would go a long way in elucidating feminism’s essence, core.

Cheers.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

– I believe I am having a ‘revelation’ moment. After years of devoting my life to this issue, I believe I might have just right now figured it out.

– I am now going to ask just 1 simple question to ALL users here.

– I would really, REALLY like only a 100% honest answer, that comes from your HEARTS because believe me when I say this, – your answer will, at least for me, mean the world!

– So are you ready, friends? (I am on YOUR side)

– So here is the question –

– Can a feminist be 100% against lesbianism?

– Just a YES or a NO would suffice. If you want to elaborate on it, then that is even better.

Thank you in advance, for your completely honest answer, because trust me when I say this – A lot depends on it.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

Comments are still going to moderation, unfortunately. I am staring at the screen and reloading for the last 12 minutes. Nothing.

Use the same email every time and that should stop.

– I, for my part, regardless of any other outcome, would first and foremost, like women to gain the status that women deserve.

– Which I believe is HIGHER than that of males.

That’s not a position most feminists take. You’re welcome to believe that, but you need to be sure you’re believing it for the right reasons, and not because of some need to put women onto pedestals. Feminists are not interested in pedestals. Women are human beings with the right to be flawed and make mistakes, with all that entails, the same as men.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@AVN

– I, for my part, regardless of any other outcome, would first and foremost, like women to gain the status that women deserve.

– Which I believe is HIGHER than that of males.

Like Policy of Madness said that’s not a feminist belief.

PoM explains things better than I can and I like how they said it. Whatever you believe make sure you examine why you believe it.

I’m a performance artist and a woman who does not have (and doesn’t want) a dating and romantic life like the ones most cishet women have. People here who are regulars know that when they read my posts but I can see how someone who doesn’t might benefit if that’s clarified. I do what I do and enjoy it and believe at the same time in the equality that feminists want for men and women. I see myself as challenging patriarchy while doing living the unique life I lead. Maybe as you read more you will learn about what some thinkers call sex-positive feminism. That is dear to my heart but not all feminists agree with it or think of it exactly the way I do. Like Policy of Madness said there are lots of branches of feminism.

Viscaria
Viscaria
1 month ago

Are we talking about jarring mansplaining experiences? Can we? Because I was in trade school a couple of years ago for my very niche, female-dominated career that most people (including my friend) know almost nothing about, and my friend was showing an interest by asking me what classes I was taking.* I loved talking about it, so I was like, “Oh yeah, I’m taking this, that, and the other thing.” “I don’t see how the other thing would help you do your job,” he said. “Yeah, it’s not really intuitive, but it’s actually massively helpful because of X and Y.” “Yeah, sorry, I don’t think so. That won’t help.” Oh, okay then. My mistake, I guess.

*Well, kind of. He was sort of asking in a “why do you need two years to learn this super basic thing” kind of way. But I’ll give him a pass for that because I have gotten that from people of all genders, including the me of the past back when I was researching the program.

Av
Av
1 month ago

@ Stacey

Can you please tell me – Can there exist a feminist who is 100% anti-lesbianism?

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

I had my period mansplained at me once. I was told that I could just hold it if I really wanted to. It wasn’t a question (“Can’t you just hold it?”) although that would have been bad enough. It was a statement (“If you didn’t want your period now, you could have just held it.”) I didn’t even bother to respond, except to call him an idiot. Ignorance + arrogance is what leads to mansplanation, and while the ignorance can be cured, the arrogance is a tougher tackle.

Lord give me the confidence of a mediocre white man.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

– I am sorry
– I will never ask that question again
– I am not white
– I am from asia. White-ish

I can HELP in the fight. What if I told you, I happen to have a way that we can have our cake, and eat it too? Kill 2 birds with one stone?

– I have the solution, ma’m!

If you give me a chance, I will prove it.

If your answer is yes, then please allow me to post now 🙁

PS – No need to let this comment get posted, obviously, haha. I will post normally after this comment, no one needs to know. Cheers.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

I will admit – I have never seen game of thrones.

Ever

Haha!

Full Metal Ox
1 month ago

@Naglfar, Paireon, Moon Custafer, Robert, and everyone else citing dystopian SF:

This just came up on my Atlas Obscura subscription, and seems 57 varieties of relevant:

http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/book-that-imagined-nazi-future-wwii-hitler-gender-swastika-night

Full Metal Ox
1 month ago

@Policy of Madness:

I had my period mansplained at me once. I was told that I could just hold it if I really wanted to. It wasn’t a question (“Can’t you just hold it?”) although that would have been bad enough. It was a statement (“If you didn’t want your period now, you could have just held it.”) I didn’t even bother to respond, except to call him an idiot. Ignorance + arrogance is what leads to mansplanation, and while the ignorance can be cured, the arrogance is a tougher tackle.

Lord give me the confidence of a mediocre white man.

Here’s Gehayi’s classic account of how she, then a twenty-year-old intern, had to tutor a married middle-aged state representative in Remedial Sex Ed, Inside Plumbing Edition—and how that discombobulating level of ignorance directly informs government policy:

http://gehayi.tumblr.com/post/133454492906/profeminist-myfeministawakening-i-was-inspired

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@AVN

– Thank you for your reply, and attention.

You’re welcome

– If possible, can I ask you certain questions?

It depends on the questions you want to ask. If it’s about something I know about or something I have an opinion on and I’m comfortable answering I will.

Naglfar also said you could ask her questions too and she’s very articulate and knowledgeable so you can ask her things that I don’t know about or wish to answer

– It is completely OK if you say no, by the way.

Please try and think how maybe saying it this way might not be feminist way of thinking. When you say that it kind of sounds like that I would need your permission to say no if I wanted to but you are being nice and giving that permission by telling me it’s “OK” if I don’t want to answer your questions.

See, I definitely already know it’s “OK” if I don’t want to answer questions or say “no”.

The way you phrased that makes it seem like I don’t have rights until you are kind enough to give them to me.

Better just to ask “May I ask you certain questions about (whatever subject)?” Then let me answer and just accept the answer.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@Viscaria

That is awful. I would have found that really really jarring too.

@Policy of Madness

That is just so unbelievable.

Ignorance + arrogance is what leads to mansplanation, and while the ignorance can be cured, the arrogance is a tougher tackle.

You sum things up much better than I can. That is really a good sum up.

@AVN

Policy of Madness explains it well. And tell me how you reacted to Rebecca Solnit

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved

– Understood. Loud and clear

– May I ask you certain questions about feminism’s stance?

– I googled rebecca solnit. She is great!

🙂

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 month ago

@AVN – I’d also suggest that you confine yourself to *one* question/topic at a time, and not address it to anyone in specific. That means that anyone is free to answer, and also means that no one is required to answer.

If you ask multiple questions, people’s attention is going to be too spread out, and everything will just get bogged down.

And in an example of people not always agreeing – This is re: @Stacey’s point about you ‘giving permission’ to say no.

When I ask something, I will often say “If you can’t, that’s fine. Thanks for your time.” I have some friends who will never say the word ‘no’. Even if they don’t want to do something, or can’t, they won’t tell you that. I like to make it clear, up front, that ‘no’ is not only an option, it is a perfectly reasonable one.

In a sense, I suppose I am giving them ‘permission’ to say ‘no’, but I’m also letting them know that if they can’t do whatever it is I’m asking, ‘no’ is fine and won’t end our friendship.

When people (often women) are socialised that denying anyone anything is a relationship-ending thing, I feel it is important to let them know that a) saying ‘no’ is fine, and b) ‘no’ is a complete sentence, no justification needed. (I’m definitely working on both of these!)

To be clear, I think that everyone always has the right to say no, no permission needed. It’s just that socially, sometimes I need to let people know that there are no consequences for that, so they aren’t tying themselves up into anxious knots about it.

So that’s my take on what you said, and then how @Stacey replied. I don’t think she’s wrong, she makes a good point that I need to think about, but I wanted to share why I personally often will end a request with giving ‘permission’ to say ‘no’.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Rhuu

To be clear, I think that everyone always has the right to say no, no permission needed. It’s just that socially, sometimes I need to let people know that there are no consequences for that, so they aren’t tying themselves up into anxious knots about it.

That’s how I read it as well, and I do the same thing just to make it extra clear that I won’t be angry or disappointed if they say no. I’m very non confrontational IRL so I try to be clear that I’m not forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

@ Rhuu

– Understood. And completely agree with what you said.

– I have certain queries regarding persons of color, muslims, and feminism, that I would like to understand more about.

– I am obviously not able to understand these things properly, and have a hard time comprehending what is going on.

– So if someone could help me by letting me know –

– If there were a way to get women, especially white women at the top, white males below them, and homosexuality completely and entirely accepted, and ingrained in the society, and abortions becoming 100% free and legal –

– BUT with the exception of black women, and black males not getting what they desire…and muslims going back to their nations.

– Would women, in particular white women, who are feminists, be willing to at least give it a try and see how it goes?

– Out of pity, at least?

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

@AVN

I can definitely see how maybe you meant it just exactly like Rhuu said too. And if so that would be being considerate, so thank you.

@Rhuu

@Naglfar

You both make good points and show how it’s important to consider how we’re socialized affects how we see things.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

To miss Stacey

– As a man, I can not even begin to imagine how hard it must be for women to put up with male harassment and violence all the time.

– I really feel for you.

– Which reminds me – Do white women get harassed by black males too?

What are your thoughts ma’m? (And is ma’m an acceptable word for addressing women?)

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

– Are there more sex-positive feminists or anti-pornography feminists today?

– There is a pornography genre called – JOI.

– Does it meet the standards of feminist pornography?

– And does size matter??

It certainly would be great to know the answer to these.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
1 month ago

In online role-play, I’m often a bit of a tease. And I’ve said before that being a good tease requires a lot of empathy.

First, you have to know which buttons to push on the person you’re playing with.

Second, and more importantly, you have to be able to tell when to stop pushing, because the person you’re playing with may not feel comfortable saying ‘no’ outright. I’ve been on both sides of this.

It’s always a bit of a balancing act, and getting to know people involves getting to know where on the balance bar they’re standing, because everybody’s a little bit different.

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 month ago

@AVN
Tip: This is not a good place or time to discuss your boner.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Avn

Are there more sex-positive feminists or anti-pornography feminists today?

I would imagine the former but I’m not sure.

Does it meet the standards of feminist pornography?

The idea of feminist pornography is less about what the porn itself entails and more about how certain aspects are depicted or processed. For instance, feminist pornography usually emphasizes female pleasure on set and off set is based around treating actresses equally and respecting consent (i.e. not forcing anyone to do acts they’re uncomfortable with). So some porn in that genre could be feminist if it features those aspects. Does that make sense?

And does size matter??

This one is a bit more complicated. Some people do prefer larger or smaller partners, while others have no preferences. If you are specifically asking about women, IIRC surveys show that most women do not think size is an important part of sex for them. What most agree is more important than size is skill and foreplay. Of course, everyone is a bit different, so YMMV.

Your comments are still showing up delayed slightly and your avatar is changing. It seems like you might be using a different email each time. Try sticking with one email for posting and your comments will appear sooner as they won’t go to moderation.

Viscaria
Viscaria
1 month ago

– If there were a way to get women, especially white women at the top, white males below them, and homosexuality completely and entirely accepted, and ingrained in the society, and abortions becoming 100% free and legal –

– BUT with the exception of black women, and black males not getting what they desire…and muslims going back to their nations.

– Would women, in particular white women, who are feminists, be willing to at least give it a try and see how it goes?

– Out of pity, at least?

Did you come here being all “I have seen the error of my ways, women are great actually,” so that you could try to get our buy-in for some white nationalism and Nazi shit? GTFO.

“Black women and black males not getting what they desire” so weird how you’re not being very specific here. Is it because if you were any more precise about what you think Black people shouldn’t have it will become obvious that you’re talking about basic human rights?

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