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Now is the time for A Voice for Men to ask: “Are we the baddies?”

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By David Futrelle

In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.

Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.

If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.

On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”

Down the memory hole he goes.

Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.

You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.

Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.

Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.

In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.

I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?

H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.

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Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 month ago

The alternative is certainly not cheaper for me! To use that alternative my occasional $8.75 cinema tickets and $150 satellite TV package would become $7.99 a month to each of several streaming services … and a roughly $1300 a month rent increase to move to somewhere with fast enough DSL for streaming.

I said the virus was gone in the county I am in. No active cases. The big non-human reservoirs are bats in a mine somewhere in Yunnan province in China.

And …

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/facebook-zuckerberg-what-if-trump-disputes-election-results

Disturbing. What can we do about this?

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Surplus

What can we do about this?

One thing to note is that the Supreme Court seems to be very fed up with Trump lately, with even the justices he appointed ruling against him regarding his taxes and LGBT protections. So if he tries to have the Supreme Court invalidate the election like Bush did, he could be in for a surprise when they don’t.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

O/T: Dictionary.com has added a definition for TERF. Given that TERFs love using this website to define “woman” as “adult human female” (ignoring that it says trans* women are women), expect a meltdown soon.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Surplus to Requirements:

There are a lot of trends going on right now which are bad or mixed. None of them are new, and have been slowly going on for a few decades, but the coronavirus is accelerating some of them.

Costs of living are going up due to inflation, but pay (whether employment or disability aid) largely static. A very large part of this is due to increased automation reducing the number of jobs formerly done by humans, and not always being replaced by something else. This leads to increased numbers of people chasing after fewer open positions, which in turn skews the employment market heavily in favor of the employers, which depresses wages. And when wages don’t go up, there isn’t more tax money to fund disability aid, so that doesn’t go up either.

Non-grocery stores at all levels, from the lowest Mom-and-Pop to the biggest department stores, are going under. These jobs are largely being replaced by internet-sales warehouses. In the short run, this is a good thing for some people, and bad for others. In the long run, the trend is toward corporate supergiants like the world has never seen before (definitely Amazon, probably Alibaba and Ebay, maybe a few others) dominating nearly all of the world’s non-grocery commerce if it continues unabated. (And Amazon is trying their hand at groceries, too) Oh, and eventually those warehouses will be largely automated as well…

Movie Theaters and Cable TV are largely on the decline, and being replaced with streaming services. Again, good for some people, bad for others. While Netflix will probably remain #1, the fairly rapid proliferation suggests that, unlike the commerce consolidation mentioned above, there will probably be healthy competition even if some of them end up crashing and burning. I’ve heard that this isn’t some sort of plot by “neo-liberal overlords” but the result of cable companies accidentally sowing the seeds of their own destruction.

Air travel is way down. People don’t have as much spare income for vacations due to cost of living increases but wages not rising to match. This is hurting bars and restaurants and movie theaters and similar sorts entertainment/recreation sites too, to a lesser extent. And of course the coronavirus messed up a lot of those pretty badly.

Churches, temples, and other religious organizations are going under. Regardless of what one thinks of religion in general, this causes community disruptions in the short term, and the remaining ones tend to concentrate and empower extremists, as the moderate/liberal religious people largely aren’t looking very hard for new ones, not that they’d much care for what’s left when it’s filled with extremists.

But probably most pernicious is that in some cities there’s a weird sort of super-gentrification going on – instead of the poor and minorities being driven out of their communities, it’s often middle-class whites which are being driven out. Houses are being snatched up, and some abandoned communities or formerly empty areas are being filled with luxury condos… mostly inhabited by no one. That’s because they’re not homes. Some have a secondary use of effectively being a “company-owned hotel room” for corporations which have traveling agents (which is incidentally messing up the hotel industry), but the main use is as wealth sinks, as pseudo-trade-goods, and as money laundering tools by the megacorps, the super-rich, and the crime syndicates. And then there are also some weathy landlords buying up homes for using as temporary housing through sites like AirBnB…

A lot of cities are trying to make up for that by building more “affordable housing” using whatever funds they can scrape together to incentivize developers, but it tends to be going not quite fast enough to keep up with the displacement and is often well away from where most of the jobs are.

It’s unlikely most of that will go back to “normal”. There will be a new normal, though probably not until at least a few years after the coronavirus dies down. The current trends cannot change on a dime, but neither will they last, if for no reason other than the global economy will completely tank if almost no one has homes or income. It’s hard to predict what that new normal will look like, since whatever comes next will be the result of people trying to force this train onto a different track. It might even look different in different places.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

That being said, I highly doubt that you need a $1300 rent to have decent enough internet for streaming. Maybe Canada really is that unpopulated between big cities, but that’s about three to five time what it would cost to inhabit a small french city, the kind that have good internet but not high speed fiber. It’s also *significantly* higher than what it would cost to inhabit in the heart of Paris. Which is strange given how cheap movies are apparently.

Outside of that, it’s really not the work of any nefarious agent. Current trends are certainly accelerating, but they more come of existing trends. The TV will die sooner or later given that Internet litteraly do the same thing but better, and move theaters have so much jacked up their price that at some point they will disappear out of pricing themselves out of reach of everyone.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

I highly doubt that you need a $1300 rent to have decent enough internet for streaming.

No, that’s a pretty reasonable rent for a one-bedroom apartment in any major Canadian city (it’s probably considered an absolute steal in Toronto or Vancouver). If you get roommates, it can be cheaper, and if you live in a smaller town, it can be cheaper, but that amount is hardly outside of the realm of possibility for rent in Canada.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

O/T: I would encourage all if possible not to do business with Teespring. In addition to their past issues with bigots, they have now banned T-shirts from antifascist organizations with the words “Antifa” or “anti fascist”, but allow alt right T-shirts that encourage killing Antifa members, as well as shirts with homophobic or misogynistic slurs and violent messages to remain up. This company has made it clear what their views are, and as a result I would recommend avoiding them.

Avn
Avn
1 month ago

– I used to be a member on ‘A voice for men”. For quite some time – More than 7 years.

– I left that website a few years ago, but unfortunately, my toxic masculinity did not leave me.

– Until a short while back

– Today as I write this, I am a changed man.

– Unfortunately, I was a visitor to this very website as well, several years ago. At that time, as you can understand, I did not know better. And I apologize for the things I posted at that time, that disrespected women and might have hurt women’s feelings.

– I hope to stick around and learn more about how to fight misogyny, respect women, and how to be a feminist. (I am a little confused about feminism’s actual views about certain aspects. With me being on the opposite side all my life, the reader can understand why.)

– Thank you for reading. Cheers.

Paireon
Paireon
1 month ago

@Snowberry – Very nice, concise summary, methinks. In any case, I’m not very conspiracy-minded (getting most of the people who get singled-out by these to all work together in the same way, aiming for the exact same goal, would be an exercise in cat-herding the likes of which the world has never seen), so I’m more apt to consider most of those things to be Hanlon’s Razor in action (yes, I’m aware this requires a depressingly ludicrous amount of apathy and stupidity, but here we are).

In any case, the two biggest actual conspiracies in contemporary history are probably the Holocaust and king Leopold’s Congo Free State atrocities, and we got FAR too many proofs of both being the real deal (following the Auschwitz Memorial Museum’s Twitter feed is both depressing and enlightening) to consider them merely “theories” (that said “hypothesis” is a better word to describe them IMO, given that a theory needs more than mere say-so to be considered such, unlike a hypothesis; methinks people are mainly too lazy to say/write the longer word).

RE: Canadian rent: 1300$ (in Canadian funny plastic money, that is) a month would get you a pretty nice apartment here in Montreal depending on neighborhood, and in the suburbs where I live you could actually rent a house for that much. Probably not for much longer though.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

O/T: I missed this until today, but it looks like William Shatner has decided he wants to be the next Glinner. He’s spent the last few days QTing and sending harassers to small accounts after being called “cis”, then doubling down into a tantrum when people pointed out it wasn’t a slur.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 month ago

@Snowberry:

It’s unlikely most of that will go back to “normal”. There will be a new normal, though probably not until at least a few years after the coronavirus dies down.

A few years?! And what am I to do in the meantime when a movie comes out that I want to see, or if I want to vary my diet in the slightest? It’s been six goddamn months since I had a cheeseburger … Why are decisions like these constantly being made without my needs being taken into consideration?

@Catalpa:

If you get roommates, it can be cheaper,

Nonstarter, in my case. With my sleep disorder, we’d mutually drive one another mad. Not to mention how would I guarantee against irreplaceable stuff being tampered with or stolen? It would require getting a two bedroom apartment with lockable bedrooms to each safeguard our stuff so the other couldn’t go and sell it out from under them in a moment of desperation for cash, or similarly, and then the rent would be even higher … and then I’d largely be living in a smaller space, to wit just one bedroom, since I couldn’t then keep anything of value in the common areas.

It just doesn’t seem workable, short of trusting someone to the degree that one normally associates with married couples. And that’s before taking account of the sleep disorder.

and if you live in a smaller town, it can be cheaper

But then your internet speeds aren’t enough to stream video well, and we’re back to square one.

@Naglfar:

He’s spent the last few days QTing

He’s spent the last few days whatting?

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Surplus
Quote Tweeting. It’s when you link someone else’s tweet within one of your own as a way to respond or share it on your timeline. Graham Linehan infamously did this to attack people and inform his army of transphobes about new targets. Now Shatner has followed suit. I really thought JK Rowling was going to take over as new leader of TERFs on Twitter, but Shatner seems to be giving her a run for her money. He has far fewer followers, so his impact might not be as dangerous, but still not ideal.

Shatner being bigoted isn’t really new, he has a long history of harassing autistic people, so it’s not that surprising he’s pivoted to transphobia (with the usual undertones of racism etc).

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
1 month ago

Shatner being bigoted isn’t really new, he has a long history of harassing autistic people

He what?!

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@LindsayIrene
He has supported and defended Autism Speaks multiple times over the past few years, then each time has lashed out when autistic people tried to explain to him why he shouldn’t. On the heels of that, this isn’t terribly surprising.

That incident also prompted this meme:comment image

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

@Surplus

I actually wasn’t trying to give you advice on your situation (I’ve finally learned my lesson and completely given up on speaking to you on that topic), I was just trying to give Ohlmann a bit of perspective on the housing/rental costs in Canada, and some of the options Canadians have available to us.

But thanks for taking the time to take a big shit on my points anyway.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 month ago

What meme?

kupo
kupo
1 month ago

Iirc Shatner was posting some red pill nonsense before, too. I blocked him long ago for being a horrible person.

@Surplus
The people making these decisions are weighing your needs. And the needs of immunocompromised people. And the needs of healthcare workers. And the needs of businesses who want to open. It’s still possible to get a cheeseburger to go, or make one yourself. And movies are being made available on demand. It’s not possible for so many people to see their loved ones again. To hold their hands or kiss their cheeks or hear their laugh.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to diminish the difficulty of feeding oneself during a lockdown like this, but compared to the alternative, it’s simply not the highest priority problem going on right now. Frankly, it’s disgusting that you’re complaining about essentially being bored with your food and entertainment choices when a thousand people are dying every day.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Surplus
The image embedded in my comment. Can you see it?

@kupo

Iirc Shatner was posting some red pill nonsense before, too.

I didn’t know that before, but it doesn’t surprise me.

Amtep
Amtep
1 month ago

You don’t actually need high streaming speeds to watch movies online, since Netflix has a download option.

You also don’t need to subscribe to all of the streaming services all the time. If there’s a specific movie you want to see on a specific service, you can join them for a month.

numerobis
numerobis
1 month ago

Surplus:

A few years?! And what am I to do in the meantime when a movie comes out that I want to see, or if I want to vary my diet in the slightest? It’s been six goddamn months since I had a cheeseburger … Why are decisions like these constantly being made without my needs being taken into consideration?

This is outright offensive.

Those are not needs. They’re luxuries. Having working lungs: that’s a need.

It’s not *you* specifically that is being targeted, it’s a shared sacrifice that we’re doing society-wide because, though you deny it, there’s a virus out there that will pop back up the second we loosen restriction too much.

epitome of incomprehensibility

The word “cis”: How anyone thinks it’s insulting is beyond me. It’s a neutral descriptor. If someone objects to being called “cis” I can pretty much assume they’re transphobic at this point.

I wonder if people reacted this way to the word “heterosexual” a few decades ago?

Re movies and stuff: YouTube has some movies available (a few dollars each to watch). If you don’t want to give business to Google, there are some free ones available on Vimeo. I remember I saw Bunuel’s l’Age d’or there.

I know, in the large scheme of things it seems petty to complain about missing entertainment*, but it can affect mental health and exacerbate other worries. I get that. For me, I really miss spending time in libraries. They’re one of the main places I use to write (too many potential distractions at my place)**. In the Montreal area, the libraries I know of are only open for pick-up/drop-off.

And yeah, the Toronto area seems to be reopening more slowly. When I was there in July, no one was allowed inside restaurants. But many had take-out. Restaurants are allowed to be open in Montreal, with spacing precautions (but many can’t afford to be).

*though what kupo & numerobis said makes sense as a reality check; I’m not trying to “subtweet” anyone here (evidently I think this is Twitter now – I need more sleep :P)

**I did manage to finish chapters 1-3 of my novel, mostly, and a draft of chapter 4 now, so it’s not like this makes it impossible – just harder

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 month ago

It’s still possible to get a cheeseburger to go, or make one yourself.

Not for me it’s not. Anything I get “to go” will be soggy and cold by the time I get home with it, and I don’t have the necessary tools here to make one myself, they wouldn’t fit in my backpack if I tried to obtain them, and if I did somehow lug them all home and use them I’d give myself carbon monoxide poisoning, because I don’t have a balcony or anything like that here.

it’s a shared sacrifice that we’re doing society-wide because, though you deny it, there’s a virus out there that will pop back up the second we loosen restriction too much.

I don’t deny it. However,

a) This “shared sacrifice” doesn’t seem to be being shared all that equally, now does it? I have less to begin with but seem to be expected to sacrifice more than middle-class people living in larger urban areas.

b) The experts themselves don’t seem to agree that it would be “loosening restriction too much”, in that they’ve given the green light for “stage 3” reopening in most of Ontario. But for some reason that “stage 3” reopening doesn’t actually seem to be happening, at least not in my town.

c) This is all glossing over the real issue, which is what I said before: I’m not even seen in public anymore except briefly at a store doing something essential, usually buying groceries. I’ve basically disappeared, except online. My isolation was already unusual before and now it is extreme. Other people have been limited to “social circles” of 10 people. I seem to have been singled out to be limited to zero. And I think I am well within my rights to ask why.

Valentin
Valentin
1 month ago

Thousands of seafarers have been trapped at sea for more than a year. More than half are over their contract and dont know when they go home. Food on board is only what can be supplied in this pandemic depending on what countries the vessel calls. People like this, who are struggling trapped at sea, they are who is supplying medical equipment, masks, electronics that you use for entertainment, food you eat. In a few days, two people on my ship will go home, they have been on this ship since July 2019. What are you doing in July 2019? I honestly dont think cheeseburger and streaming are the issue here. It upsets me to hear this, the suffering right now is so great, most people do not see this. Some of the stories I heard about other ships, the people trapped there will NEVER recover from the trauma they experienced there. Not just a few years before they return to ‘normal’, their life is changed forever. The breakdown of mental health and support will effect them for the rest of their life.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@epitome

I wonder if people reacted this way to the word “heterosexual” a few decades ago?

I’d imagine so, since they’re still doing it now. Similarly, many object to terms like “able-bodied” or “neurotypical” or “allistic.” I think the reason is that allocishet white men in particular (though some other groups do it too, it’s mostly a cishet white guy thing i.e. Shatner) are used to being seen as the default, and so they get angry when they are referred to as cis or a similar term, as that reduces the idea of cishet white male as the default (which is the point, no one type of person should be seen as default).

How anyone thinks it’s insulting is beyond me.

A theory I’ve seen thrown around is that they think it’s insulting because they use “trans*” (or the related slur) as an insult, so they assume “cis” must also be an insult (projection). When confronted, they usually either repeat some tired nonsense about “gender is a cult” or “I don’t conform to all stereotypes so I’m not cis,” both of which don’t actually explain anything.

Paireon
Paireon
1 month ago

As a cis/het dude myself. I sure as heck don’t find being called that particularly insulting (except if you say something like “fuck cis people”; someone decided that particular aggressive categorism was apt on a r/shitredditsays post about transphobia, clearly implying all cis folks were inimical to LGBTQ+; my reply, which included my own positive experiences with trans people, somehow got me banned, and when I asked a mod about it, even asking if I’d done something wrong so I could correct it, their response to me was, and I quote, “fuck cis people”).

*AHEM* Sorry or the rant/tangent. In any case, Shatner has long been divorced from reality, as his rather …inconsistent (understatement, I know) relationship with former co-star George Takei has been proves. In his case, degrading into randomly right-wing “Old man yells at tree” territory was completely expected on my part.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@numberbois:

This is outright offensive.

Those are not needs. They’re luxuries. Having working lungs: that’s a need.

It’s not *you* specifically that is being targeted, it’s a shared sacrifice that we’re doing society-wide because, though you deny it, there’s a virus out there that will pop back up the second we loosen restriction too much.

Okay. No. *This* is what’s outright offensive.

We all know that Surplus has issues with paranoia, okay? But there was a short time time in my life where I had no luxuries, not even the littlest ones. I didn’t really have access to books, music, or movies, even. I had trouble affording food. I’m not disabled like Surplus. There wasn’t even a virus going around. And it was miserable. It sapped my strength to fully function. I’ve seen people go through worse, and for a lot longer. At that point, even the tiniest luxury matters.

Yes, there is a shared sacrifice (or there should be, as the reason why this pandemic situation is taking so long to get over with is because some people are flouting it) but it demands the same price from those who can least afford that price as those who can afford it most.

My brother trivializes this sort of thing by saying that people who have to deal with hardships can easily deal with greater hardships because they’re used to it, so it’s no big deal. That is a terrible attitude coming from a terrible person, and saying “everybody sacrifices” like it hits everyone equally isn’t too far off from that.

And I will confirm Surplus’s fear that things not returning to “normal” just because everything is “reopening” is a likely thing. Some places will only partially recover, some will barely at all. There will be rebuilding into a new and different “normal”, and plenty of squabbling over *how* to rebuild, but that won’t really start until the virus is gone. The one silver lining is that most of what is happening was happening anyway, and the fact that the virus has accelerated and exposed the bleeding is making certain people take it more seriously than they would have otherwise had, instead of dragging it out until the patient is near death’s door, so to speak.

@Surplus to Requirements: Is there somewhere off this site I can contact you to send you a minor luxury of some kind? Like, I don’t know, a DVD since you mentioned movies? Or a restaurant delivery if a comfort meal is what’s needed to raise your spirits a little?

Ariblester
1 month ago

Paireon wrote on
August 8, 2020 at 11:57 pm:

As a cis/het dude myself. I sure as heck don’t find being called that particularly insulting (except if you say something like “fuck cis people”; someone decided that particular aggressive categorism was apt on a r/shitredditsays post about transphobia, clearly implying all cis folks were inimical to LGBTQ+; my reply, which included my own positive experiences with trans people, somehow got me banned, and when I asked a mod about it, even asking if I’d done something wrong so I could correct it, their response to me was, and I quote, “fuck cis people”).

Given that r/shitredditsays (aren’t they one of the links in the sidebar?) has the stated aim of being a safe space for LGBT+/BIPOC/womenfolk to vent, this sounds about right. It’s not a forum for cishet men.

Ariblester
1 month ago

Their first rule is quite explicit about this:

1. RULE X: SRS is a circlequeef and interrupting the circlequeef is an easy way to get banned. Do not say a comment is “not that bad”. Do not defend linked comments. Do not play Devil’s Advocate. Do not attempt to start a debate. This list is not exhaustive. You will not get a warning.

This is our space to vent amongst like-minded people. We will not tolerate rude interruptions. Also, you are not entitled to “explanations” just because you come across our sub.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Arablester: The first rule of circlequeef is that you do not talk to the circlequeef?

…Bed. Going to.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 month ago

except if you say something like “fuck cis people”; someone decided that particular aggressive categorism was apt on a r/shitredditsays post about transphobia, clearly implying all cis folks were inimical to LGBTQ+; my reply, which included my own positive experiences with trans people, somehow got me banned

I mean, it’s not all that surprising that you got banned for pulling a #NotAllCis stunt in a forum that’s apparently intended for LGBT folk to discuss their identities freely. (I don’t go to SRS so I’m not 100% sure what it’s about.)

Would you feel the need to discuss your positive interactions with black people if you came into a black space and heard “fuck white people”? Or to go #NotAllMen when women in the context of male violence said “fuck men”?

If you would, I would recommend you reconsider doing that. In general, when a member of an oppressed group expresses animosity towards a dominant group as a whole, it’s a general expression of aggravation and anger towards a system that is oppressing them. They do not literally mean “fuck ALL cis people yes especially you, all of you are irredeemable horrible people”. However, they may mean “all cis people have privilege as a result of being cis and benefit from living in a transphobic society and grow up with internalized transphobia and often cause harm even when they do not mean to”.

Valentin
Valentin
1 month ago

Sometimes trans people can mean all when they say fuck all cis people and I think that anger is justified actually. Even if cis person means well and tries to be good, ignorance can still cause harm. Even ‘good’ cis people are sometimes not good to be around if you are trans. Just like Black people benefit from Black only support groups or safe places, becuase sometimes yes, it’s all white people. And sometimes yes, it’s all cis people. That is what power and privilege can do. It makes ‘harmless’ actions harmful, becuase of lack of power in the oppressed group.

Ariblester
1 month ago

Snowberry wrote on
August 9, 2020 at 2:38 am:

@Arablester: The first rule of circlequeef is that you do not talk to the circlequeef?

…Bed. Going to.

Pretty much, yeah. That’s why I (cishet man) never go there; it’s not for me, my presence is not needed, and in the end I’d just feel shitty about myself (not sorry for admitting that). Why should I feel the need to defend myself that a member of an oppressed minority feels negatively towards people like me, when I know that they have many valid reasons to associate people like myself with their current situation? They’re not there for explanations about how I’m “one of the good ones”; they’re there to vent about how the system as a whole has not treated them with fairness and dignity.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

The ‘Kirk v Picard’ debate finally settled.

comment image

Valentin
Valentin
1 month ago

Captain Kirk as a character is a good captain and I actually like him in the movie (with William shatner). He was a good actor. He is just a horrible person in real life. Jean Luc is my favourite captain but they really got his character so wrong in the Picard series. I had to stop watching. It didnt feel like Picard.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ valentin

I had to stop watching. It didnt feel like Picard.

Yeah; I’ve heard a few people say that.

I haven’t seen the new series myself; but I caught a snippet of an interview with Patrick Stewart where he seemed to suggest this was an alternative Picard; deliberately set up to disavow the portrayal in TNG.

I can understand why that might be attractive to an actor; like when they do alternative takes on Shakespeare. But I can see why this would alienate fans of the original. I loved TNG, so I think I’ll follow your example and give this new one a miss.

(Have you seen ‘Blakes 7’ btw? That was intended as a sort of dark and grittier interpretation of Star Trek. British cynicism versus Roddenbury’s optimism.)

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

It’s been six goddamn months since I had a cheeseburger …

Miss pork, myself. I mean, we’re lucky – the local shop we use has a meat counter and sells decent meat, but since they’re Halal … no chance of pork chops for a while. Getting a touch sick of chicken on meat days.

And yeah – the odd little “luxuries” ARE important for mental health. Anyone who says otherwise don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

Re: “fuck cis people”
The thing to keep in mind with that phrase is that it’s one used by a minority to signify annoyance at how an oppressor has treated them. A journalist I like, Gemma Stone aka Cursed E, wrote an article that explained this well, but unfortunately it was taken down from Medium after it was mass reported. I understand why someone might feel annoyed about the phrase, but it’s not a personal insult, more a retort from a minority about a majority. Don’t take it personally, and try to understand why someone might say that.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ naglfar

This did crop up a bit in the Forstater case. Not sure if you’ve managed to track down the full judgment; so link below just in case; You know a lot about the case already so it might be of interest to you. The judge deals with terminology at paras 8 to 11. Seems a mix of not wanting to offend anyone and avoiding the risk of an appeal based on “pre-formed views”.

https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKET/2019/2200909_2019.pdf

Valentin
Valentin
1 month ago

And yeah – the odd little “luxuries” ARE important for mental health. Anyone who says otherwise don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.

Ur…..I dont think anyone is saying that luxuries are not necessary for good mental health? I read surplus post again, and again to me it sounds entitled, and I am not the only one. To others who suffered a lot with the lockdown and covid, it probably sounds entitled to them. Especially the part about not just streaming movies but watching first release first for example. Intent is not magic, and if surplus meant only to vent that is fine but I dont think the people who are hurt by it are pretending, I did hurt them to read it. And definaltey no one is making the arguement here that luxury does not help with mental health. All of us here know that it does, all of us here have mental health issues and trauma that we deal with every day. It seems also patronising and dishonest to say this. Also passive agressive. If you have a problem with specific comment, then say which one. Which person specifically is the one who is cruel back to surplus, who should not be hurt by his comment, even if he meant to hurt or not.

Viscaria
Viscaria
1 month ago

Surplus didn’t say that he is struggling because he has lost access to luxuries which were important for his mental health. He said that the policy decisions being made do not sufficiently prioritize his specific needs. I’m not sure how to characterize that beyond incredible entitlement.

Then he took some time to emphatically reject advice that Catalpa wasn’t even giving him, because of course he did.

Frozen burgers can be cooked on stovetops, in ovens, and in many cases in microwaves.

Edit: If someone’s needs are being ignored by our governments, it is not inherently entitled to complain that their needs should be given higher priority. That is why it is important in this case that what Surplus is talking about are luxuries. He believes his specific access to things he wants but does not need should be placed higher than the needs of others.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

The last time I saw a movie in the theatre was The Force Awakens; prior to that, I hadn’t seen one in maybe five years. The only streaming service I buy is Disney+, although I also mooch access to Netflix off a friend’s account. “I don’t have access to movies immediately after they are released” is a bizarre complaint about lockdown, a lockdown intended to reduce the number of people literally dying. Literally dying! And not only dying, but dying alone and un-accompanied by friends or relatives due to COVID restrictions on visitors in the ICU.

If “I don’t have access to movies immediately after they are released” and “I haven’t had a cheeseburger in a good long time” are the biggest complaints you have about COVID then I just don’t know what to say. I’m not going to play Oppression Olympics here and say that your problems are unimportant because other people have it worse, but I am definitely going to say that your problems are trivial if those are your main complaints. Even if other people weren’t literally dying alone of COVID, those would be trivial complaints.

Anything I get “to go” will be soggy and cold by the time I get home with it, and I don’t have the necessary tools here to make one myself, they wouldn’t fit in my backpack if I tried to obtain them, and if I did somehow lug them all home and use them I’d give myself carbon monoxide poisoning, because I don’t have a balcony or anything like that here.

I guess frying a burger in a pan is not fancy enough for you? It has to be flame-grilled or nothing? What a weird amalgam of entitlement and learned helplessness.

Reaktor
Reaktor
1 month ago

I feel like there shouldn’t be any controversy because Snowberry’s analysis up there sounds like overly pessimistic and baseless speculation.

Cats In Shiny Hats
Cats In Shiny Hats
1 month ago

I have a customer on my route that is 92 years old. Her family literally hasn’t left the house in months. The only human contact they get “face to face” is talking to their mailman. Even then I stay back well over six feet and we all wear our masks. I take extra time out of my very long day just to give them sometime to talk to that they aren’t related.

Sorry if that’s more important to me than your lack of cheeseburgers and movies.

NOBODY
NOBODY
1 month ago

guess frying a burger in a pan is not fancy enough for you? It has to be flame-grilled or nothing?

I was going to say something similar in an incredulous tone. Hamburgers were among the first foods I made for myself first living on my own.

( I learned not to bother with buns. Bread slices are wider and hold everything better, and these days it’s hard to find wheat free/ gluten free buns that don’t feel like massive hard rolls).

But then I suspected Surplus might be disabled in a way that makes getting ingredients or doing things harder.

Still a First World problem, but maybe consider Amazon or another delivery service?

And wow…242+ comments!

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 month ago

I think a point that is being missed is about how, now that we’re at stage 3, everything should be nearly back to normal. Everyone should breathe a collective sigh of relief, put on their masks, and go right back to their normal day-to-day.

Only that is not how humans work. We have been told for months to ‘stay home!’ so that we can ‘flatten the curve’, and lots of people listened to that.

For instance, i have a job where i could work somewhere that is completely work from home, or work in a place where i go in every day. I have always made the choice to, if i can, work in an office.

Going out and seeing people is important to me. Being able to justify my VERY expensive transit passby taking two trips a day every workday is important to me, because then i feel like the whole city is accessible to me. This helps my mental health.

I will be working from home for the next… well, hopefully less than a year. I’ve been home since march. I’ve left my house to do things other than grocery shop a handful of times.

We’re in stage three, and while i can’t justify my bus pass, i *can* walk around my neighbourhood, and go to stores in the area.

I don’t, though. Simply put, i’m afraid.

What if i get sick? I have no family in the area, how will i take care of myself, alone? What if i get someone else sick? What if i have friends over, and we all get sick? What would i do, if i was a long-hauler, unable to work for a year? How would i make rent? (Which, as a torontonian, i can tell you that 1300$/1br apartment would be really really good, right now.)

Governments can go ‘phase three!!!’ All they want. With restrictions on how many people can fit in a restaurant, can that restaurant still make a profit? I doubt it. And i’m not really wanting to go into a place where we all take our masks off and breathe in the air droplets for an hour. Not yet.

People need to feel safe, and they don’t yet.

Frankly, i’m glad that people are still being a little cautious, the only reason cases are going down is because people are being cautious, and wearing masks.

I had a very nice day yesterday, and part of it was buying some street meat from a vendor, then going and eating it on a little patch of grass, in the shade of a nice tree. While waiting for my friend to finish their hot dog, i adjusted my back pack, laid down, and closed my eyes for a moment. The breeze blew past me, my friend was telling me a story, the temperature and humidity were good.

It was bliss. I’m going to revisit that moment many times over the next year, i am sure.

We were also in a parking lot.

@surplus – if you want take out, but don’t want it to be cold, find a place you can sit and eat it. I’m pretty sure all parks are open in phase 3.

If you want it to stay as hot as possible, get a little insulating bag, and put it in there.

@NOBODY – don’t bother suggesting anything that requires a credit card. Surplus doesn’t have one. Don’t bother suggesting any ways around not having a credit card, Surplus won’t listen.

I probably shouldn’t have suggested a way that one could buy takeout and eat it earlier than one’s house, but i had a really great moment yesterday, and i wanted to share a potential solution.

@ commenters – hello! Haven’t been around in a bit. With everythibg that wad happening in the world, this felt like one thing too far. I thibk i’ll try to stick around a bit more, i did miss the comment section!

(Also the excellent articles, it is good to know what these jerkfaces are up to!)

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Nobody

Bread slices are wider and hold everything better

I agree, burger buns never seem to work right for me. I prefer to use bread or just cut it up and eat with a fork.

Side note: is there any difference between the Beyond Burger and the Impossible Burger? I’ve tried the former but not the latter and they look about the same, so I was wondering if they are the same food branded differently or if they really are different.

@Rhuu
Good to see you back. I was a bit worried about you given the current circumstances in the world.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 month ago

Did someone mention a desire for gluten/wheat-free buns?

https://www.lowcarbmaven.com/low-carb-hamburger-buns/

A few notes from me: The recipe says “5 buns,” but I prefer to make 4 buns so that there’s more bun per bun. Also, while I have a food processor, I found it a lot easier to mix the ingredients in separate bowls and then combine everything together with a spoon (final stage with my hands) – to break this down, I mix the almond flour and baking powder together in one bowl, and then I use a microwave-safe bowl for the cheeses. After the cheese have been melted, I mix in the egg, then I add the dry ingredients. Be sure to mix as thoroughly as possible before you start shaping the buns or you might get a pocket of hot cheese in JUST the right place to burn your fingers.

North Sea Sparkly Dragon
North Sea Sparkly Dragon
1 month ago

Two of my closest friends haven’t left their houses since early March, their disabities will result in them either dying quickly or suffering for a very long time if they get COVID19. They, and I, also live on disability benefits, so we’re not exactly flush. To get by we kept up our hobbies, watched stuff on YouTube and texted about it, or read and texted about that. Little luxuries included the odd new book or yarn (we’re all crafty) or a bit of chocolate or ice cream in the shopping delivery, seeing a family member through the window, or the like. Highlights of the recent lifting of a few restrictions: friend S has just started getting book deliveries from the library which she’s pleased about because she doesn’t have space for any more books of her own and her brain doesn’t like ebooks so much at the moment because of new meds; friend F saw her mum and dad for the first time in five months this weekend; and I got to go swimming (social distancing, very limited time in the pool) last week. S and F are still extremely limited in what they can do but I have a different sort of disability so I have a bit more freedom. I can actually leave the house, although I don’t much. Our little luxuries don’t risk other people, and don’t put us at risk, while helping to maintain our mental health. Going to the cinema and eating out are not ‘little luxuries’, they’re big luxuries and put people in danger.

Wittering about not being able to see a film in the cinema when it’s first released or eat out is really, really f-ing entitled, and yeah actually it is really bloody upsetting to see people trivialising things. We are all aware that Surplus has issues with paranoid delusions, which explains their idea that their (and from the tone of responses to any questions, only their) specific needs should be considered when governments and health organisations are trying to keep people alive, and that they’re the only one who hasn’t been out or isn’t seen out much at the moment (see above re: my immune compromised friends who haven’t left the house in 5 months!) but it’s really something when they think it’s more important that they get to go to the pictures and have a restaurant bought cheese burger than that immune compromised people should get to live. @PoM, your assessment of entitlement and learned helplessness seems entirely valid. I’m pretty certain the same thing came up during the bread conversation some months ago.
@Valentin stay safe at sea. I hope you get to go home soon and aren’t stuck on board for a year. My granddad and great granddads did some long trips back in the day (1930s to 1970s) but I don’t think they were ever at sea that long.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 month ago

I just want to say to everyone who is having a difficult time right now because of the virus or for whatever reason I feel for you and I’m sorry you are facing what you are facing.

To everybody who helps others I offer you my thanks and my admiration.

I know that I am privileged in that I’m an artist who is supported financially by sponsors and patrons. The pandemic put a stop to a big project I was working on but now that things are opening up again a little that I am moving on it again and at least can see my guys on a limited basis (our social group can’t meet fully yet but we can do small groups with 3-4 people at someone’s place). And even before the pandemic when I had my salon job I was taken care of and helped out much more than most service people and I know that.

And I work hard on my projects but I know that in my life here even though I now deal much better with NiceGuys and creeps even with other women out there in the world some of them think stuff like

“Oh look at the stuck up little blonde girl with the whip, she thinks she’s so great because of those guys she’s with but what a slut and weirdo , why does she stand up on that thing and why does she dress like that in public ewww? That’s not art stupid little weird girl.”

So I know the stuff I write here probably makes me seem clueless and entitled so if it does I apologize. I love this community and all the regular commenters and reading David’s posts always make me think and I love his humor.

@Valentine

Being stuck at sea during all this must be unimaginably difficult and I admire your strength and the strength of all seafarers. I hope you are safe and hope you are comfortable and rested soon. Thank you for bravely bringing people what they need.

@Cats In Shiny Hats

You are so amazing to take care of your customer and their family that way. You are doing so much to help them it’s amazing and I admire you and thank you.

@Rhuu

Welcome back…we are glad to see you!

@Surplus

I am sorry you are having a difficult time and very sincerely hope things will improve for you.

@everyone

I wish safety and wellness to all and to those who work for others that I didn’t mention directly…thank you and blessing to you.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
1 month ago

I don’t feel qualified to weigh in on the COVID lockdown things since I’ve had it so easy all this time, but

re: William Shatner’s tweets
I think I heard way back when something about his account being handled by someone else, and that said someone else was just tweeting what they thought was topical. Not that it matters much, since from what I’ve heard, he isn’t a nice person or anything IRL, and it would be a statement in it’s own right to have it handled by people who like to get up in arms about misandry and autism, so.

I’ll always love TOS, though, and I’m fairly certain that the things that made it special had nothing to do with Shatner.

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