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By David Futrelle
In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.
Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.
If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.
On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”
Down the memory hole he goes.
Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.
You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.
Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.
Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.
In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.
I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?
H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.
@Snowberry
To be fair, it’s not like he was really hiding it before.
@Clever4agirl
Not what I choose personally in my art and intimacy — I’ve carried a bullwhip regularly now for over a year — but I admire the creativity alone in just coming up with that and marketing it!
@Naglfar:
Or maybe he just has a crush on you, and is expressing it with the verbal equivalent of pulling on your hair because he’s scared of cooties.
Hey Skimmy, it’s bad enough when children do it, and it’s downright creepy and abusive when an adult does.
@Snowberry
Aww…
Something tells me Skimmy here is probably under 18 so I’m going to turn him down. The rejection might sting, but we probably wouldn’t make a good match anyway what with me being left wing and trans* and him being fascist and annoying.
@Hexum7
Hey, maybe on his home planet the left wing does want to ban fire. Depending on the atmosphere on his planet this may be a good call.
@skimmingway
So, skimminway, dude…just curious…what are your predictions then for leftists who have (and produce) “professorial reading material” *about* fortifications? I think it’s very revealing that you seem to think that knowledge of effective field fortification and academic proficiency/scholarship are somehow *at odds* with each other. I think a person well-informed and well-educated in either would realize the strong historical precedents for how knowledge of fortification (i.e. “building forts”) actually depends upon being well-read.
I don’t agree with your views of this impending societal doom when we leftists will supposedly fail as the “red-blooded men” prevail but if some challenge like your fantasy did appear I’m quite sure there would be a large number of vigorous, physically-fit, anti-fascist men and women with military training, including at field fortification, basic tactics, logistics, operational art, combined arms operations et. al. that *I bet* could defeat you and those like you.
@everyone else besides the troll
Will he notice the irony of his attempted reference to the relative effectiveness of leftist-constructed fortified defensive positions when made to someone with my particular nym?
@Naglfar
I can’t blame him. I would fall in love with someone with that beautiful of husky as well.
@ Skimmingway:
Omit needless words.
@Pavlovs House
Is he under some impression that Tough Real True Red Blooded Right Wing Men don’t need forts? I’m beginning to think he might be a mall ninja as well.
I doubt it, he’s far too dense to understand concepts of irony.
No. He’s moved past the “trigger the libs with inconvenient FACTS™ and LOGIC©” part to the “I’m now
sniffing my own fartsmerely toying with you simpletons” phase, so facts no longer matter to him (as if they ever did).@Naglfar
Sorry I didn’t see your question earlier but Clever4agirl covered it (cleverly!) I see 🙂
(Yes, an actual bug zapper would be too dangerous to use.)
@Ariblester
The only comment of yours that I am able to locate was on the previous page; I found it wholly lacking it merit, for you seemed to have been under the impression that I was not sufficiently charitable towards you. Let me be perfectly clear that I stand in disagreement with the notion that I have been unfairly dismissive towards you, and in fact, I have given you exactly what you are worth.
@Pavlov’s House
I stand in complete disagreement regarding FDR, for I believe it to be the case that he, through a series of machinations not often mentioned in the kind of textbooks that government-financed learning institutions poison the minds of impressionable readers with, purposefully goaded the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor so as to better sell yet another foreign war to an unwilling American public. In so doing, he was able to take various liberties that he otherwise might not have had, such as expanding the powers of the government to such a vertiginous scope as had not yet been seen before on North America, and created a form of welfare/warfare state which has increasingly drained the bank accounts of the public while wildly devaluing our currency, thereby disinclining the public towards thrift and setting up an unsustainable civilization built on cheap thrills to keep everyone distracted while the world slides further into chaos.
@Viscaria
I say, have you tried eating shit instead of spewing it?
@Naglfart
I have the sincerest doubts that you know what you are doing as a composer, for it is my contention that you have been schooled in a way that is far too modern, and you have likely developed an appreciation and a style modeled on such discordant monstrosities such as those who would use electronic devices in their “compositions” and seem eager to reproduce sonically whatever it is that might cause a veteran to have flashbacks.
The market is by no means saturated with whatever it is that you are accusing my work of being, it is oversaturated with materials purported to be written by people who either know Trump intimately, or were members of his cabinet at one time. Basically, the kind of brain-rotting dreck that someone of your characteristics and abilities would no doubt find stimulating, to replace the dearth of matter between your ears.
Fascism and Capitalism may or may not be the past, but I am fairly certain that Monarchism will be the future, and I am not at all bothered by such a prospect. Monarchism does breed proper incentives within its rulers and deprive them of short time horizons, after all; though it is by no means my preferred form of governance (anarcho-capitalism), it is a damn sight superior to either democracy or fascism. Make of that what you will, I know that no amount of explanation will be sufficient to correct whatever misconceptions you might produce.
I have no interest in banning fires. I am down for banning fifes if that will help the leftist cause in some way.
@Bookworm in hijab
So in Skimmingway’s case, all the words?
@Ariblester
Yes, I see what you mean. Good point.
I was hoping for once I get to have some troll fun.
The last time I actually go to play troll-batting extensively was that jerk who thought I would automatically be on his side because I had mentioned that I’m an Army veteran and work with the armed forces and that Ms. Pavlov’s house is cishet and very conventionally attractive according — like those two things were buried in the midst of some substantive comment and the troll zero-ed in on them and concluded that there must just be no way THAT kind of man could not agree with him I forget that particular troll’s nym.
Looks like skimmingway is gone now though.
Well, since it is apparent by your dismissiveness that you do not regard us as worthy interlocutors, then you are not here for a conversation, but instead mean to hector us. We do not owe you an audience.
@Ariblester:
And we’re at the “We know. We don’t care. Let’s see how long you last before giving up or saying things so egregious that you will get banned” phase. Either is a victory for us, by the way.
@skimmingway
At least he didn’t purposely mismanage a pandemic and disrupt postal services to try to cancel and/or rig an election.
I write extreme metal music, so although I don’t use electronics typically, I recognize the value of sonic experimentation in creating new timbres and ideas in the musical sphere. I’m guessing you’re not a fan. I find a lot of people who hate modern art and music are simply upset about change and innovation, maybe this describes you? I couldn’t care less what you think of my music, how much have you written.
Also, you still never said what’s musical about your drek.
Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin already have published books. You’re late to the table of pseudointellectual garbage.
@Pavlovs House
He’ll be back I’m sure.
@Ariblester
Yes, he seems to think of himself as some sort of missionary trying to enlighten us, when really he’s just a clown that has wandered in.
Woo, a monarchist and a WWII conspiracy theorist. You don’t see many of either nowdays. Also unusual is a conservative who thinks the military-industrial complex is a problem, so I’m guessing some stripe of libertarian? (As usual, qualifying that I mean “libertarian” in the American sense of the word)
@Naglfart
My conjecture here is that if ever there was a true fort built after the fall of civilization, it would no doubt be built by a real man and not by some ghastly little nerd who is unable to properly digest meat. Society would most surely not be reconstructed by people who are too afraid to eat anything that isn’t green and comes from a blender.
@Pavlov’s House
There is no such thing as a leftist in the military, so I know not of which you speak. Moreover, I cannot say that I predict that much violence will be truly necessary after the fall of western civilization; those who are weak and inefficient will simply wither away or retreat, leaving only those men who are coarse enough and contain enough manly vim to survive and thrive. These men will rise up in their manly millions and simply create a new civilization on the desiccated remains of the old one, their vigor alone being quite enough to dissuade any kind of attacks that their emasculated interlopers might be foolhardy enough to launch. Can you honestly envision some soy-fed twit having the brawns or the guts to actually invade anyone?
After having read this most eloquent response, I have no choice but to retract my ignorant and insulting remarks. Skimmingway, it is clear to me now that you do speak like a pompous ass in real life, just as you have done here (increasingly the more people point it out for some mysterious reason), and I apologise for doubting your sincerity. You are no mere sexist and racist, but a sexist and racist who is also a blowhard.
Yes, by a vanity press. This type of press also exists in the twenty-first century. You never tire of pointing out that you are gainfully employed. Why not spring for this alternative.
(Wikipedia)
@Skimmingway
My leftist husband is a Corporal in the Marines, and he also thinks your a dumb ass piece of shit lol.
Love you Baby!
@Snowberry
He declared earlier that he’s an ancap. From the other things he’s said, probably a sovereign citizen too.
@Skimmingway
Have you ever met any leftists in the real world? Or does all your “knowledge” come from 4chan memes?
Thanks for sharing your plan.
Have you ever heard of the Inca Empire? Their army subsisted on potatoes.
@skimmingway
No.
No scholars who have looked have found evidence that Roosevelt and his administration goaded the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor — and scholars have looked extensively. The people who think about this do not concern themselves primarily with textbooks; you mention “textbooks” suggesting that you think perhaps that’s the species of work that matters in this case the most (?) Rather they (we) are concerned not with “mentions” in “textbooks” but the full arguments in scholarly monographs. What matters is the grounding of the argument in evidence. One such work that addresses directly your contention question is Waldo Heinrichs, Threshold of War: Franklin D. Roosevelt & American Entry into World War (New York: Oxford University Press, 1988). Although an older work, the archival evidence cited is quite deep. If you are going to make the wild claims that you do, you must account for Heinrichs, as it’s one of the seminal works on this subject.
As for the actual known circumstances… if there were actions that went so far as to meet the definition of “provocations”, they certainly weren’t directed at Japan — Roosevelt and Harry Hopkins (whose policy-making influence must also be considered; I see you don’t mention him) if anything directed provocations at Germany, e.g. Lend-Lease and especially using USN ships to escort convoys to Britain. The latter put the U.S. in direct combat in some cases with Nazi Germany long before the attack on Pearl Harbor.
As for Japan, Roosevelt probably didn’t *need* to provoke Japan — Heinrichs shows with pretty convincing evidence that Roosevelt, Hopkins and his Roosevelt’s knew by mid-1941 that one way or the other, the U.S. and Japan were probably going to be at war with each other by the end of the year. They just didn’t think it would come with an attack on Hawaii; it’s forgivable that an attack on the Philippines would be the more predicted way the war would start. The issue of trying to “hurry up” U.S. entry in the war had little to with provoking Japan; it was driven by concerns in August 1941 that the USSR might or might not hold out. (By November when war with Japan was more imminent the situation on the Eastern Front had changed enough that there was more confidence in Washington that the USSR was surviving)
Heinrichs isn’t “government sponsored” – O.U.P. is a scholarly press and if you knew anything about real academics — whether they are left-wing or right-wing in their politics NONE of them would tolerate any government agency telling them how to review a manuscript when they are peer reviewers!
Now go to school.