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Now is the time for A Voice for Men to ask: “Are we the baddies?”

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By David Futrelle

In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.

Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.

If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.

On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”

Down the memory hole he goes.

Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.

You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.

Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.

Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.

In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.

I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?

H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.

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skimmingway
skimmingway
1 month ago

@Snowberry

I am only a monarchist to the extent that I am not an anarcho-capitalist, or rather, that I think that the world may not yet be ready for my preferred form of governance.

Monarchism has the superior quality, in that it retains the concept of private property, but it centralizes it within the hands of one individual, who has vested interest in maintaining the health and wealth of the entire kingdom, for he owns it in its entirety. Democracy is plagued by short time preferences, in that politicians often sacrifice the long term for the short term in order to gain reelection; by contrast, a monarch must maintain his kingdom long enough to pass it down to his offspring, and in so doing, he is most unaffected by whatever passing intellectual fad or ephemeral complaint rises from the mouths of his subjects. Having been schooled in political theory and having been given the best sort of education that money and influence can afford one of his stature, he is in possession of a set of highly cultivated talents that bestow a degree of legitimacy on his decisions that no other person can lay claim to.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Pavlovs House

Now go to school.

Well, if he stops arguing soon we’ll know the teacher took away his phone for using it in class.

@skimmingway

centralizes it within the hands of one individual, who has vested interest in maintaining the health and wealth of the entire kingdom, for he owns it in its entirety.

Do you think there might be a reason most places are no longer monarchies? Could it maybe be that people don’t want it?

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@Skimmingway

So your dumbass isn’t going to say anything about the fact your wrong about leftist people in the military. Good to know.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Nah, he just has to hide it off the screen for the zoom call and mute his angry little puppy grunts he’s probably doing.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Lainy
Skimmy’s choosing carefully what to answer because although he can’t help getting owned, he thinks he can control how hard he gets owned.

Anyway, I’m headed to bed now. I’ll see what’s happened in a few hours.

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

@Naglfar

This is the raw meat guy right? the dude who though sure power of manliness will protect him from harmful bacteria? Cause if it is that explain a lot.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Skimmingway

Society would most surely not be reconstructed by people who are too afraid to eat anything that isn’t green and comes from a blender.
[snip]
Can you honestly envision some soy-fed twit having the brawns or the guts to actually invade anyone?

Contrary to popular conservative belief, most liberals aren’t vegans. We just prefer our meat to be humanely raised and killed when we can afford it.

I will grant one thing: liberal cultures as a rule don’t invade other cultures. But they do experiment to find out what works best. Conservative cultures, on the other hand, do the same things over and over and over again and scream out in agony because after some point it mostly doesn’t work, and then invade liberal cultures and takes their ideas and stuff. I guess you could call it being more successful in the long run, but in the worst way possible for all involved, including the conservatives themselves?

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

centralizes it within the hands of one individual, who has vested interest in maintaining the health and wealth of the entire kingdom, for he owns it in its entirety.

No monarchy has ever gotten itself into ridiculous wars, had mass amounts of poverty or has ever been unstable or had uprisings.

Ariblester
1 month ago

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee wrote on
August 6, 2020 at 11:59 pm:

centralizes it within the hands of one individual, who has vested interest in maintaining the health and wealth of the entire kingdom, for he owns it in its entirety.

No monarchy has ever gotten itself into ridiculous wars, had mass amounts of poverty or has ever been unstable or had uprisings.

“I didn’t mean those monarchies! I obviously mean a Platonic theoretical construct that, much like the Platonic solids, cannot possibly exist in this world. Jeez, don’t put words into my mouth. This is why no one here is worthy to speak to me. Now shush and listen to me or I’ll use your head as a metaphorical battering ram to metaphorically clobber the truth until it yields to my irresistible correctness.”

Lainy
Lainy
1 month ago

Contrary to popular conservative belief, most liberals aren’t vegans. We just prefer our meat to be humanely raised and killed when we can afford it.

*me shoving spoon fulls of cake batter ice cream into my mouth*
Yeah no vegans in this house, especially not the cat and dog.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
1 month ago

@skimmingway

There is no such thing as a leftist in the military, so I know not of which you speak.

It is true that you do not know of what we’re writing, but not for the reasons you seem to think.

Have you served in the U.S. armed forces or do you otherwise have knowledge of the demographics of the present-day U.S. armed forces?

And, *by the way*, there are among regular commenters on this blog plenty of armed forces veterans or people who are closely connected to them, as Lainy points out and exemplifies.

I teach at a degree-awarding institution that commissions a large number of armed forces officers. Many of the faculty are armed forces officers and veterans. Some vote for Republican Party candidates and indeed are conservative politically and (many) others are quite progressive, left-wing, support progressive causes, and vote for left-leaning Democratic Party candidates.

There are plenty of rigorously conducted studies of voting patterns among U.S. armed forces personnel. I won’t bother to cite any now as I’ve already spent too much time on you bibliographically (and I’m sure other intelligent non-troll commentators can find them if they wish). Obviously voting patterns aren’t the only measure of political leanings and preferences — but they are one, and one worth considering. Evidence by that measure shows there are plenty of leftists in the armed forces.

… those who are weak and inefficient will simply wither away or retreat, leaving only those men who are coarse enough and contain enough manly vim to survive and thrive.

Ms. Pavlov’s House does sometimes find me coarse, but only in a way that pleases her; she does call me “manly” and I feel manly. It always amazes me that people like you seem to think that the ONLY strong, athletic men who live physically and intellectually vigorous lives are men who hold to YOUR twisted ideas.

I can’t say for certain because this is a blog and we’re not interacting in person but from how you conduct yourself, I bet, *leftist though I am*, I could still strict-press more weight than you, carry a heavier rucksack on a longer-road march than you, and take a position that you were trying to defend in a field exercise (even if you had the advantage in troops and equipment). (Also, if I did the latter, I’d be tempted to do it with a unit of all women soldiers…just to make you experience being defeated by them.)

I don’t think all those skills are the measure of a man. People are allowed to be who they want to be and who they are and that includes how the see their gender and how they identify. But even if I accepted the bullshit of people like you that traditional “manliness” is the measure of my worth, I *bet* I’d still be better at it than you. Just a bet. Yeah, ol’ leftist me.

Perry
Perry
1 month ago

Lol this skimmingway guy sounds exactly like I imagine I would if I was doing an extended bit as a reactionary loser. I applaud your commitment dude.

For the record, John Brown was both cool and good, and property damage is absolutely acceptable in the face of a corrupt government. Sometimes unfortunate, yes, but people are under no obligation to follow the laws of an illegitimate system. Thomas Jefferson was a liar and hypocrite, but that doesn’t make the statement “the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants” any less true.

There are a lot of liberals here, so they might not share my exact level of tolerance for violence against the state, but anyone who isn’t a radical pacifist has some tolerance for violence. Simply pointing out that someone a person agrees with has engaged in violence isn’t really a gotcha. The targets and the specific reasons behind it are far more important.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

The thing about historical monarchies is that an awful lot of rulers knowingly or unknowingly surrounded themselves with yes-men who would assure them that the people loved them. But most of the people knew nothing of the rulers beyond them being a name and a distant person who apparently didn’t give a crap about anything so long as the 80% taxes were paid. There were exceptions, of course, but for the most part it didn’t really matter which king/queen they served under, they were going to have difficult, miserable lives no matter what.

There’s no evidence that the modern equivalent would be any better. Dictatorships which are monarchies in all but name (as in, ruled by a dynasty) in the modern world are inefficient and often brutal. I don’t think that’s going to be an easy sell. Thing is, such rulers don’t owe their general population anything, only their vassals, and trying to go beyond that is a serious risk of said vassals revolting. Considering that the vassals collectively hold the bulk of the military… not a good risk.

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
1 month ago

@Surplus,

I’m not going to do a cut-and-paste quote thing here since I’m on my phone and there’s too much to do it for, but I am almost certain that the “Chivas Regal-chugging, PCP-addled thug” the troll was going on about was the late Rodney King. The riots that followed the acquittal of King’s police attackers did have a truck driver, Reginald Denny, who was pulled from his truck and beaten by four of the rioters.

Why the troll was pulling up something that happened almost 30 years ago and blaming it on today’s left-leaning folks I have no real clue.

@Pavlovs House,

Welcome back! I was just thinking about you a few days and that document about how to do simple origami Napoleon figures you wanted to see ages ago. Do you still want to see it, presuming I can figure out how to upload the thing someplace?

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
1 month ago

@everyone except the troll

This has been fun but duty calls tomorrow so off I go to bed too. It’s nice to see everyone.

Does Scildfreja Unnýðnes still comment? I did not see her [correct pronoun?] in recent comments.

Her troll take-downs were a thing of beauty.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
1 month ago

@Redsilkphoenix

Yes!!! Please!!! That is brilliant!

An Autistic Giraffe
An Autistic Giraffe
1 month ago

Good thing Skimmy is a fan of Monarchism because I’m actually of royal blood and We, King Autistic Giraffe, First of his name, hereby sentence skimmingway to death and award all his worldly possessions to transgendered syrian refugees.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 month ago

Non-troll-related:

A study shows toxic masculinity is damaging, to oneself and others.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091743520302097

On AI and race.

https://phys.org/news/2020-08-whiteness-ai-erases-people-futures.html

@skummingway:

I insist that you take back what you said about my prose being unintelligible; though I do trust my sensibilities in saying that it is quite stylish, the proper composition of sentences being a skill that is rapidly disappearing from our declining civilization (if I might still be so bold as to describe it as such), it is by no means indecipherable. You are merely lacking in the necessary comprehension skills required to parse such elegant work, for I have read my previous comment several times and at no such time have I ever believed it to be incomprehensible. Should everyone on our planet have reading skills as uncouth and rudimentary as yours, it is likely that Proust should have gone unread (I am aware of Proustian tendencies within my prose, and I make no apology).

Also, at what point did Wendy’s ever have waiters? It is a fast-food joint, I have never personally witnessed a person who might be described as a “waiter” among their ranks. Certainly, you don’t mean to imply that you have been so bold as to describe the contents of a restaurant that you, personally, have never dared to patronize?

I … why … what is this? All the rest of it is ridiculously pompous except one word he says “fast-food joint” like a regular person would but then it’s all super-pompous again afterward … why the fuck … why … why …

I am presently composing a philosophical novel which will provide curious readers with a blue print for escaping and even thriving in our perilous times

It’s not named “<number> Rules for Life”, by any chance, is it?

I suspect that I may one day reach the heights of the Russian greats

I suspect not. Ludicrous self-aggrandizement.

I say, have you tried eating shit instead of spewing it?

I say, have you tried taking your own damned advice?

I am fairly certain that Monarchism will be the future,

Tee hee. I think we have a wannabe Nick Land or Mencius Moldbug here! Skummingway, it’s 2010 calling, they want their dumbass “Neoreaction” back.

and I am not at all bothered by such a prospect.

Even though you’d be sharecropping for less than minimum wage and forbidden from leaving the little patch of land you were obligated to cultivate?

Monarchism does breed proper incentives within its rulers and deprive them of short time horizons, after all; though it is by no means my preferred form of governance (anarcho-capitalism)

Tee hee, he thinks anarcho-capitalism is a form of governance. How cute. For that matter, he thinks it can actually exist for any length of time. I think seaborgium might have a longer half-life. Obviously, anarcho-capitalism would last exactly as long as it took someone (e.g. Halliburton) to corner the market on armed mercenary services, after which that someone would be the de facto dictator and you wouldn’t have anarcho-anything.

What, antitrust? But that requires government and regulation …

@Snowberry:

Also unusual is a conservative who thinks the military-industrial complex is a problem, so I’m guessing some stripe of libertarian? (As usual, qualifying that I mean “libertarian” in the American sense of the word)

Yep. Ancap, to be exact.

@skummingway:

There is no such thing as a leftist in the military, so I know not of which you speak.

Tee hee. You actually believe that, don’t you?

Moreover, I cannot say that I predict that much violence will be truly necessary after the fall of western civilization; those who are weak and inefficient will simply wither away or retreat, leaving only those men who are coarse enough and contain enough manly vim to survive and thrive. These men will rise up in their manly millions and simply create a new civilization on the desiccated remains of the old one, their vigor alone being quite enough to dissuade any kind of attacks that their emasculated interlopers might be foolhardy enough to launch. Can you honestly envision some soy-fed twit having the brawns or the guts to actually invade anyone?

Do you know who will actually create a new civilization in these circumstances? And who created every past civilization?

People who work together, cooperate, and share resources in the face of a hostile and unremitting world.

In other words, leftists. Sometimes even outright communists.

Do you know what happens to manly man macho self-reliant individualists in such a world?

They die alone. Sometimes they can survive for quite a while on their wits and their weapons, but they eventually die, and they die alone. Except those who join into a gang under some warlord to raid the villages and towns of those rebuilding civilization. Those ones, of course, are doing their own (but predatory) version of cooperation and sharing in order to make an effective fighting force. And they also don’t build civilization. They sap at it as parasites, like mosquitoes, while remaining outside of it.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@An Autistic Giraffe:
Considering that his possessions probably consist almost entirely of multiple sets of Proust’s À la recherche du temps perdu, that would be kind of cruel. 😛

Mabret the Virile Maiden
Mabret the Virile Maiden
1 month ago

Skimmingway, (which pseudonym, let it be known, names the best mode of reading the œuvre of its bearer, if indeed one must subject oneself to such a taxing and frivolous indignity) I see that your manner of writing is in the tradition of one self-styled “Ragnar Redbeard”, who imposed upon the world that affront to literature, that shame of printers, that waste of paper, known as “Might Is Right”, wherein he, verily desiring to be perceived as intellectual, uses in praise of its intended referent the altogether ridiculous phrase “virile maidens”, which appears impressive and eloquent to those who are brutish and stupid enough to be inclined to fascism, but is blasted by the merest knowledge of language. A maiden is a young woman. One virile is one manly. Remember your Latin. “Hurrah for manly women,” quoth the monarchist!

An Autistic Giraffe
An Autistic Giraffe
1 month ago

I believe that, in any other century than our own, I would likely have been published by now. I am presently composing a philosophical novel which will provide curious readers with a blue print for escaping and even thriving in our perilous times – I suspect that I may one day reach the heights of the Russian greats,

Hello everyone, this is the ghost of Fyodor Dostoevsky. I’m temporarily sharing the body of Mr Giraffe to say the following to skimmingway:

Like Hell you will. But here, have one of my books that’s especially for you:

comment image

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

@Pavlovs House

And, *by the way*, there are among regular commenters on this blog plenty of armed forces veterans or people who are closely connected to them,

Present. 😛

However, the dipshit’s idiotic comment has been dealt with adequately.

Welcome back, Prof. Missed your comments.

Scild drops in from time to time, hasn’t been around for a couple months though.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 month ago

@skummingway:

Monarchism has the superior quality, in that it retains the concept of private property, but it centralizes it within the hands of one individual, who has vested interest in maintaining the health and wealth of the entire kingdom, for he owns it in its entirety.

So, if you simply replaced the title “King” with “Premier of the Soviet Union”, that’s all that distinguishes it from Communism?

Hmm.

Democracy is plagued by short time preferences, in that politicians often sacrifice the long term for the short term in order to gain reelection; by contrast, a monarch must maintain his kingdom long enough to pass it down to his offspring, and in so doing, he is most unaffected by whatever passing intellectual fad or ephemeral complaint rises from the mouths of his subjects. Having been schooled in political theory and having been given the best sort of education that money and influence can afford one of his stature, he is in possession of a set of highly cultivated talents that bestow a degree of legitimacy on his decisions that no other person can lay claim to.

Platonic philosopher-kings? That’s been argued about for 3500 years or so. The general consensus is that it’s a bad idea, because there’s no accountability to keep the king honest, among many other flaws.

Plus it keeps on not-working when it’s actually tried. See also “five-year plans”, “Krushchev”, and “fall of the Soviet Union”.

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
1 month ago

@Pavlovs House,

Okay. Just give me a few days to figure out the best way to upload the file for distribution on the web. I’ve never tried to upload a text file before; I’ve mostly done graphic files in the past.

Btw, speaking of monarchies, how well do constitutional monarchies like Spain’s do for ruling a country? My understanding is that set-up gives the common folk more of a say over what the rulers do than a regular monarchy does, but is that true?

TacticalProgressive
TacticalProgressive
1 month ago

@skimmingway

My conjecture here is that if ever there was a true fort built after the fall of civilization, it would no doubt be built by a real man and not by some ghastly little nerd who is unable to properly digest meat. Society would most surely not be reconstructed by people who are too afraid to eat anything that isn’t green and comes from a blender.

Except the conjecture you so assert does not meet muster when it comes to the reality and only shows and reveals your pseudorational anti-intellectual stance. Aside from the fact that the very phrase “real men” is such a nebulous and unquantifyable and arbitrary praxis that it’s frankly useless and meaningless: You need nerds and “eggheads” and other intellectuals in order to build a proper and well made fortification in order to best calculate and parse out where to build a fort, what materials to build it with, where and how to set the fort walls, what ground is unsuitable for placement of fortifications, how to reinforce it, what logistical supply chains are needed to support it (not only in terms of combat capability but also in terms of resources, camp infrastructure, food, water and petrol rations and even the general pencil pushing admin and medical staff). You literally need those kinds of people to not only build the fort and maintain it; you can’t be a thoughtless, meat-headed jabroni just plopping rocks and cement on any old plot of land without any means of not only building it or maintaining of the basic functions, operations and logistics to keep that fortification and it’s personnel even half way functional and operational. They very fact you malign and deride intellectuals and think only uncritical, beef-cake meat heads are the end all praxis for what constitutes a fort and it’s success; you clearly have the tactical and strategic and military acumen that Sun Tzu would consider “a paper tiger”: all though talk and brashness: but no substance or critical thinking and intelligence to back it up; and the master of the Art of War often pointed out how guy’s like you would try and cross a river to beard a tiger and get themselves and their men killed in the process.

Without the intellectuals telling you where and how to build a fort to spec; you would have a structure what wouldn’t even stand up to mother nature or a light breeze, much less any human army or enemy force. There’s more to building forts than just “lift sandbags and place them in a wall along trench”; have you no concept of logistics or engineering (the latter of which is pretty much peak intellectual field if an intellectual has idle hands)? A military force without such groups to use their minds, which are the greatest tool and weapon at a soldiers disposal than any arms of men: is little more than easy fodder for a soldier who fights smarter, not harder.

Also what is it with you and your ilk who seem to hate having a diet that keeps you from getting scurvy, rickets and constipation? Not to knock meat, but a healthy serving of greens keeps you healthy, scurvy free and prevents getting constipated.

There is no such thing as a leftist in the military

This is a demonstrable falsehood both in terms of past and contemporary history, given that, in terms of past history: their were socialists in the ranks of the American Military during WW2(and other allied Military’s for that matter) and to say nothing of the Russian Army (all other problems with Stalin’s policy and self aggrandizing corruption of conventional Communism aside, and I’m saying this as a non-communist).

As for recent history though: tell that to most of my Air Cadet peers who went on to serve in the Canadian Army and Canadian Air force. Most of them were some form of left wing. I’m a New Democrat and a progressive and thus “left wing”, and I worked in the Security industry for about 3 years and enjoyed trying to help people in that line of work. Or perhaps all the left wing and progressive soldiers who are trying to denounce and stand against the systemic abuses in American Law Enforcement and even in their own military ranks?

Their are left wingers in the military; and you don’t have to be a left winger, a right winger or a centrist to be in the military. Your either deluded if you think otherwise or lying if you say otherwise.

Can you honestly envision some soy-fed twit having the brawns or the guts to actually invade anyone?

Again, you seem to ignore the importance of brains, which can overcome and best brawns and fool-hearty guts any day. After all, it takes the more creative warfighter, wither conventional or unconventional: to think up, build and set traps, or developing guerrilla tactics and strategy of a objectively smaller and “inferior force” to be able to encircle and destroy a larger and “superior force”: heck their are entire military strategies and moments in history where this has happened.

Also for all your psudoscience propaganda waffles about “soy-eaters being weak and unable to fight/war because: soy… somehow”: Sun Tzu would have likely consumed a rather regular diet of soy based product; and he not only fought in wars, he studied and perfected the art of warfare to write the book on which even modern military’s base their tactics and strategy of teaching on today. (Art of War, anyone?) War is an ugly and horrid thing; but Sun Tzu was able to logic out what gained it’s participants victory or defeat.

Frankly; he would assess you and your stance as neither knowing the enemy nor yourself, and thus you and your like minded ilk will succumb in every battle.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
1 month ago

@Nequam
I have one of those electrified flyswatters! They’re excellent for killing spiders and thousand-leggers. Never used one as a flogger, though, or really on any human ever.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Redsilkphoenix: I can’t speak about Spain specifically, but in general, the monarch in a constitutional monarchy only holds veto power over parliament (or the country’s equivalent thereof) and a few emergency powers. Parliament does nearly all of the actual country-running. It’s like a president-for-life, but usually with much more limited power than an elected president.

Otrame
Otrame
1 month ago

Another military adjacent type here. I’ve known some conservative soldiers, ‘tis true. But I’ve also known a whole hell of a lot of leftist soldiers.

Assuming that Skimmy’s writing is honest and not an attempt at a Poe (is anyone really THAT pompous?), I think Skimmy is very very young and has read entirely too much Jordan Petersen. ( and that answers my question—yes there is at least one person who is that pompous)

Speaking of which, last I heard that guy was in a coma in Russia but that was a while ago. Any news about him recently?

roesmoker
roesmoker
1 month ago

I just read two jokes on Twitter indicating that Peterson has the Rona. have yet to try to verify this.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 month ago

@Otrame: If you mean Petersen, he’s not in a coma anymore but in quarantine because he and his family came down with that virus thingy which has been going around lately. You know the one.

And now I’m going to bed too. Let’s see if Trolly McWindbag comes back tomorrow.

Chris O
Chris O
1 month ago

My first reaction to this article is that David’s exhortations for MRAs to do some self-reflection will, unfortunately, most likely fall on deaf ears.

My second reaction: Doesn’t Skimmingway ever shut up?!!

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
Threp (formerly Shadowplay)
1 month ago

Doesn’t Skimmingway ever shut up?!!

explains

… MRAs to do some self-reflection will, unfortunately, most likely fall on deaf ears.

Poor sods have been deafened by the bullshit.

Nequam
Nequam
1 month ago

Does the “banning fire” stuff mean Skimmingway is a fan of Terry Goodkind? Does he think chickens are evil manifest?

Either way, it explains a lot.

PS for those who answered my question about the electric flyswatters, thanks. Can’t say I’m surprised.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Lainy

This is the raw meat guy right? the dude who though sure power of manliness will protect him from harmful bacteria?

Yes, that was his last weird spree.

I see Skimmingway’s crush continues, as he stopped commenting after I went to bed. Insomnia continues, so here I am again.

@Perry

I applaud your commitment dude.

That’s…one thing to put it. He just keeps coming back to get his ass handed to him again and again.

@Snowberry

Why the troll was pulling up something that happened almost 30 years ago and blaming it on today’s left-leaning folks I have no real clue.

Probably the same reason he brought up
John Brown: he’s going through the far right’s favorite strawmen to discuss and doesn’t have many contemporary examples of what he wants.

@Surplus

So, if you simply replaced the title “King” with “Premier of the Soviet Union”, that’s all that distinguishes it from Communism?

“B-b-but, not that way!” – Skimmingway (an approximation)

Even though you’d be sharecropping for less than minimum wage and forbidden from leaving the little patch of land you were obligated to cultivate?

I think that like most right wingers, he thinks he’d be the monarch.

Sometimes they can survive for quite a while on their wits and their weapons, but they eventually die, and they die alone.

Or they die together from COVID that they got while protesting to demand a haircut.

@Redsilkphoenix

Just give me a few days to figure out the best way to upload the file for distribution on the web.

DeviantArt allows uploading of text files, I’m not sure if it would be suitable for your purposes but worth a try.

Re: Peterson
I truly wonder if he dies whether his daughter will try to pull a “Weekend at Bernie’s” to keep the donations flowing in. If so, it will be very inept and transparent but his fans will fall for it anyway.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ pavlov’s house

Yey; welcome back! Missed your input.

They just didn’t think it would come with an attack on Hawaii;

Indeed (well, apart from Billy Mitchell).

As you probably know, Pearl Harbour wasn’t even a priority for Japan.

It was actually the sixth item on the War Cabinet’s list of battle priorities and was approved only with the caveat that the raid could go ahead “if it did not divert resources from the primary missions.” Those were of course the attacks on the Philippines and Singapore etc. which began on the same day.

The first drafts of the “day that will live on in infamy” speech referred to the Philippines, as that attack was seen by the US as the important one.

The speech writers only amended to Pearl Harbour because the cabinet thought Hawaii presented as more ‘American’ than the Philippines, and thus worked better for propaganda purposes.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
1 month ago

It’s all blah, blah, blah from Skimmingway. He seems to be trying to be funny but he’s tedious.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ skimmingway

There is no such thing as a leftist in the military, so I know not of which you speak.

I’m afraid I must disagree.

There have always been lefty soldiers. The New Model Army being an obvious Brit example.

You may also want to check out the 1945 UK general election where the Labour government was elected by a landslide. That is often attributed to ‘the forces vote’ (although that’s an over simplification.)

Many first-time voters voted Labour as did those in the forces.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/background/pastelec/ge45.shtml

Even during the war, many in the government were concerned about left leaning tendencies in the military.

Churchill was suspicious of ABCA, many of whose lecturers were left-wing. He accused it of political bias and criticised it for being a waste of valuable military time and money.

https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/abram-games-abca-and-fight-post-war-change

Similarly today. Whilst I suspect the US military may skew a bit right wing, there was plenty of Labour support in the UK forces (although that dropped off under Corbyn); but you might expect that based on the demographics a lot of soldiers are recruited from.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 month ago

@ skimmingway

Can you honestly envision some soy-fed twit having the brawns or the guts to actually invade anyone?

I’ll keep the vegan propaganda to a minimum.

I’ll just mention that elite Roman legionaries were veggie; they thought meat eating was effete.

There was also that German chap. I’m not putting him up as a role model; but you can’t deny he invaded a lot of places.

But should you wish to learn more; here’s a place to start.

http://dailysikhupdates.com/worlds-greatest-warriors-ever-vegetarian-video/

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 month ago

Wow, skimmingway came back like, literally the moment I went to sleep. I can’t say I missed much – trolly is still just spewing words like intelligence is measured by how many low-quality words one can get on the screen.

I admit I didn’t read much of the troll’s spews, so I guess it’s for the best that I missed the (very off-topic) action.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

I agree. Apparently Skimmingway have less wits and more prejudice than a pet rabbit.

He also look like he seriously need some psychatric help. His obsession with manliness and his utter unability to grasp subtilety probably make his life hell. Which in turn mean it’s why he is so obsessed with the parcels and scrap of social status he have, given how unfulfilling the rest of his life seem.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Alan Robertshaw

they thought meat eating was effete.

The irony.

I’m somewhat curious what he thinks of left wing paramilitary groups like FARC. And then there’s of course the typically fascist contradiction of him insisting the left is too weak to fight but also violent and dangerous at the same time.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Ohlmann

Apparently Skimmingway have less wits and more prejudice than a pet rabbit.

Are pet rabbits known for prejudice? I’ve never owned one, but I didn’t think they were.

Although I don’t want to internet diagnose, he doesn’t seem very happy. Happy, fulfilled people don’t go to blogs they hate in order to rant in overstylized substance-free text and insult the regulars.

Ariblester
1 month ago

Naglfar wrote on
August 7, 2020 at 7:34 am:

@Alan Robertshaw

they thought meat eating was effete.

The irony.

I’m somewhat curious what he thinks of left wing paramilitary groups like FARC. And then there’s of course the typically fascist contradiction of him insisting the left is too weak to fight but also violent and dangerous at the same time.

By repeated application of No True Scotsman, you can make “leftists” as weak as you want, while reserving the means of violence for “Communists” or “bureaucrats” or “terrorists” or “enforcers” or “coarse men” or whatever.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 month ago

@Nagfljar : my experience with pet rabbit is that they *hate* strangers. And anything that go out of the ordinary.

And in case it wasn’t clear enough, needing psychiatric help != being mentally ill. In his case, it mean I don’t believe he will ever be happy without both wanting to change and having a professional help him change.

North Sea Sparkly Dragon (Formerly Nanny Oggs Busom)
North Sea Sparkly Dragon (Formerly Nanny Oggs Busom)
1 month ago

Wow, I go offline to read, crochet and listen to lectures about the archaeology of religion (it’s a hobby) for a couple of days and miss the Return of Skimmingway. *Sufficiently theatrical and doomladen music follows*

Thanks for the history lessons @Pavlovs House, I had heard some questionable things about the US entry into WW2 but not the rumour that FDR tried to provoke the Japanese. I must look that Heinrich book up for later reading. FDR was an interesting individual, but his New Deal was hardly socialism, let alone communism. State sponsored capitalism, maybe? If it was truly socialism, USians would have universal healthcare as a result.

@Alan, I remember reading a biography or possibly a history, that mentioned a lot of British soldiers in WW2 had never had the vote, and didn’t actually know how to vote, or why they should. There were pamphlets distributed and lectures given in the last days of the campaign through Germany in order to explain the point of voting to people who had never had any choice in their political masters before. It seems so strange to me that my great-grandparents wouldn’t have been allowed to vote until after 1945 (my grandparents were too young), since I try to vote as often as I can.

@Skimmingway, you are verbose, bombastic, ignorant and truly terrible writer. I say this in a professional capacity as a writer and reviewer. Even Dickens, who is known for his convoluted verbiage, and was paid by the word, wouldn’t have published you in his magazine. Your words are empty and you are dull. Bit of advice, read modern texts if you wish to be published. Unless you are using elaborate speeches in an anachronistic manner, for instance as H. G. Parry does in The Unlikely Escape of Uriah Heep when the Uriah Heep character speaks, or muses, then it’s inappropriate to be so long winded. You won’t get published.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
1 month ago

@Naglfar (and everyone except the troll, really)

I’m somewhat curious what he thinks of left wing paramilitary groups like FARC. And then there’s of course the typically fascist contradiction of him insisting the left is too weak to fight but also violent and dangerous at the same time.

Yeah, exactly! I was thinking along those lines too generally. FARC is a good example but I had in mind the leftist paramilitary groups in 1930s Spain that provided a lot of troops for the Republican/Anti-Fascist coalition in the Spanish Civil War. Their imagery and propaganda often looked like to me that they extolled and adulated the kind of traditional masculinity that the troll thinks his is espousing. And intellectual honesty about the historical record does force one to acknowledge the considerable misogyny present in the international left during that period. So it would make sense I guess that they extolled that traditional idea of manliness (i.e., if their worldview was misogynistic then that idea of gender supports that worldview).

Anti-feminists and right-wingers today sometimes get all excited when they see or hear a scholar talking about those realities as if they have their cherished “gotcha” moment that they think is the marker of intellect.

But as commenters here often point out, it doesn’t work that way. I can and do acknowledge the misogyny of Soviet communism, the violent authoritarianism of Stalin and at the exact same time still be legitimately and honestly glad that the RED ARMY DEFEATED NAZI GERMANY.

(Sorry for the all-caps “yelling” but those last words deserved to be emphasized.)

And when thinking about the anti-Axis coalition more broadly, yes, the leading countries founded their military power of racist exploitation (Great Britain and the British Empire), systematic inequality enshrined in apartheid (the U.S., particularly with Jim Crow in the south but really everywhere), imperialism (British Empire and U.S. relationship with Latin America). But, sorry fascist apologists and narrow-thinking present-day right-wing ideologues, still not “gotcha”.

Nope, the Allies still deserved to win.

(And by the way many of the peoples who were exploited by the governments mentioned above themselves did a lot of the shooting weapons of all calibers at the Fascists)

The issue is reducing privilege and making the world more just for all.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
1 month ago

@Ariblester

By repeated application of No True Scotsman, you can make “leftists” as weak as you want, while reserving the means of violence for “Communists” or “bureaucrats” or “terrorists” or “enforcers” or “coarse men” or whatever.

Yep, that’s fallacy they resort to…good call.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
1 month ago

@Alan

Good to see you! Very interesting comments as always! Definitely reading and will reply soon!

Off to the industrious young officer-candidate-scholars now…

@Threp

Thank you for the welcome back! Great to see you too!

@everyone

Great to see everyone and thanks for the welcome!

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 month ago

@Pavlovs House

I had in mind the leftist paramilitary groups in 1930s Spain that provided a lot of troops for the Republican/Anti-Fascist coalition in the Spanish Civil War.

Conveniently, Skimmingway gave his opinions on the Spanish Civil War in his last flameout. They’re what you’d expect.

Anti-feminists and right-wingers today sometimes get all excited when they see or hear a scholar talking about those realities as if they have their cherished “gotcha” moment that they think is the marker of intellect.

The right wing sees everything in black and white, so they get confused when the left can sense nuance in anything. As a result, a lot of their gotchas turn out to prove the opposite of what they wanted to say. There’s a whole Twitter account I follow, Accidentally Left Wing, that documents right winger gotchas that accidentally support leftist ideas.

@Ariblester
Maybe later he’ll use that same fallacy and claim the Nazis were leftist a la Ben Shapiro.

Pavlovs House
Pavlovs House
1 month ago

@Naglfar

Thank you, wow…yeah, that flame-out was bizarre. I wasn’t watching the blog then but the guy spews so much it’s hard to sort out the levels of inaccuracy.

When he says this, though, it’s hilarious:

“not once have people of your persuasion been useful in rebuffing anything resembling a nationalist resurgence”

How about…perhaps….the Soviet victory in the Russian Civil War and the founding of the U.S.S.R?

The White side in the war definitely was diverse but there were certainly some nationalists among them.

They lost.

One might also argue that the United Front in China is an example of a very large communist party mobilizing the working class (peasant classes, in that case) and incorporating the nationalists (i.e. KMT and other related parties) and…defeating the Japanese. (And despite the 1945-1949 Chinese Civil War, one might recall that some KMT stayed with the CCP-led coalition. splitting the KMT)

Other “nationalist resurgence” defeated by a mass mobilization of the working classes by a left-wing communist party:

Yugoslavia in World War II. Did the NVOJ (Tito’s Partisans and the Yugoslav Communist Party) just fight the Axis? No. They defeated *at the same time* right-wing Serbian nationalists (who admittedly occasionally did see fit to fight the Axis themselves, sometimes, but not with a convincing level of commitment!) Maybe it’s more accurate to say that the NVOJ didn’t only the Nationalists but outdo them in ability to the majority of the population (even in Serbia) and forged a communist working-class movement….who, again….(this is for you Skimmingway)…..

DEFEATED FASCISTS AND RIGHT-WINGERS