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By David Futrelle
In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.
Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.
If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.
On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”
Down the memory hole he goes.
Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.
You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.
Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.
Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.
In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.
I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?
H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.
I know you said you have no sympathy for the Israelis, but still find myself a bit shocked at how much that is the case. And really trying not to be too blunt with what I think about your bullshit plan.
Naglfar has already made some good points; I will add to them the fact that, while I won’t claim for extensive knowledge about the Pied Noir, as far as I know they have always seen themselves as French, and have settled in Algeria because they have seen it as a part of France. This is so drastically different to the situation with Zionism. Are you seriously denying all of the connections of the Jewish people to the land of Israel? (I am not saying that those connections should take precedent over the interests of the local residents of that land, and as I said, I acknowledge the injustices that were done in the name of Zionism and hope that our peoples will be able to find a solution for them; but I do want to point out that this isn’t a “standard” case of colonization, and saying it’s the “fault” of France, England and Germany is ignoring a whole damn lot of history about the relations of these countries with Jews and Zionists, to say the least, and I’ll stop now because I’m still in parentheses.)
And even going back to the logistical side, you are ignoring a whole lot of possible unfortunate racist implications (even besides the basic idea of sending thousands of people of Middle Eastern, North African, Ethiopian, Indian etc. roots to go live in Europe because reasons). I mean, how are you going to decide who gets sent away? Is it anyone with an Israeli citizenship? Like I said, there are about 10-20% of Israeli Arabs (some prefer the label Palestinian-Israeli, other prefer Israeli-Arab, or other variations), so you’ll be sending away some of the very people you are claiming to do this for to begin with. Or is this going to be based on ethnicity/religion (which, yikes), with the Arabs getting to decide whether to remain Israeli and leave to Europe or to receive a new Palestinian passport? Or is everyone going to receive that choice (and if a majority of Jews choose to stay with a new citizenship, how have you solved anything)? And it’s not just Jews that are a problem, because what will you do about Christians? Some of them are Arab Christians from long-settled communities, others are various shades of “newcomers”, from Messianic Finns to the African Hebrew Israelite Nation. So, are they all getting sent away too? Are they all staying, and only the Jews are being sent away? Or are they allowed to stay only if they are Arab, or if their families have lived here for a certain number of generations? And then, what will you do about mixed marriages (there aren’t many, admittedly, but there are some)? Any way you cut it, you’re going to have to make some very very problematic choices. Because it is a bullshit plan.
Saying Israel has driven people away from their land and mistreated them – and is still doing so, along with many other terrible things – is one thing, and you will not find me disagreeing with that. Saying that Israel should be relocated in its entirety to Europe is another thing, and I hope I can somehow make you understand the difference between the two stances, and the problematic-ness of the second.
Re: Israel, the only solution that really appears viable given the present day realities of the situation is essentially to give up the “Jewish State” bit and give everyone now within their borders full citizenship, voting rights and the whole shebang regardless of their ethnic origin or religious predilections. Acknowledge Arabic as a second official language, all that.
(For the record, as a white Yank, I wholeheartedly support Hawaiian sovereignty, and regularly argue that all non-Indigenous residents of the erstwhile United States retreat to the area which was ceded us by treaty, or seek citizenship in the nations which rightfully own that territory, under whatever conditions they may set.)
Yeah. What @Dalillama said.
@Penny Psmith
I agree, and this reminded me of a useful tool: the 3 Ds of antisemitism. They are used to distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from antisemitism, and involve checking for delegitimization, demonization, and double standards. In the case of Ohlmann’s proposal, there appears to be some level of delegitimization, as Israel is being viewed not as an independent state but as a colony. There also appears to be some degree of demonization, as they said they don’t feel sympathy for the people who are forced to move to a new country because of something their government did. There also is a double standard at play, as Ohlmann doesn’t seem to be arguing for the same treatment of other countries (like the US).
Edit: I agree with Dalillama that Israel should extend citizenship to non-Jews within the borders and they should have equal rights the same as Jews living there. That being said, I still think that Jews fleeing persecution in other countries should be allowed to move to Israel, similar to how the Beta Israel did during Operation Solomon.
I agree that this seems the only viable solution. I have long believed in the two-state solution, but it seems like it’s becoming more and more difficult to make that work; one unified, democratic state, or some kind of federation, is definitely looking preferable. It has little chance to happen in the near future, with the racist winds blowing in Israel currently (and with all the other aspects of racial tension, terrorism, various flavours of international involvement, and so on), but perhaps in a later point we will all mature enough to make it a reality.
@Penny Psmith
To me, the biggest issue with a 2 state solution would be custody of Jerusalem. I’m not saying it’s impossible to negotiate, but it would be difficult to get all involved parties to have a mutually agreeable plan for the city.
Then again, I don’t live in Israel so there is probably a lot of perspective I’m missing.
San Marco it. Independant city state within Israel, but under it’s own control. It’s a workable solution – works for the Vatican, and is probably eventually going to happen to Mecca. Though that’ll be amusing to watch.
@Threp
That was part of the original partition plan in 1948. The problem with that is that there are still multiple groups that would want to control Jerusalem, as it doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and the states would probably back these groups to control it indirectly. San Marino AFAIK doesn’t have multiple groups vying for control of it, so they avoid this problem.
As for Mecca, while I’m sure many would be glad to see it out of Saudi control, I highly doubt that the monarchy would let it go.
I always kinda liked that idea, because I live in Jerusalem and it seemed like it would be neat to have a Jerusalem passport. 🙂 But I think it differs from the Vatican situation because of the various tensions involved (I mean, just look at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre as a sort of microcosm: it’s divided between several of the main churches, in an attempt to keep things equitable, but they keep squabbling, to the degree that there’s a stepladder on a balcony at the front of the church which has been there for decades and can’t be moved because it will mean something about the division of the territory. I don’t know, it’s complicated). And you get things like settler associations buying up houses which used to belong to old Jewish families who were killed and/or driven out in the 1929 riots, or just buying up Palestinian houses to create sort of enclaves (and you have Palestinian extremists threatening sellers with violence or even outright killing them), or using archaeology as a ruse to drive Palestinians off their land, and you have various bits that are actually not held by Israel but owned by foreign powers or churches, and several other complications, and this is just within the Old City and its immediate surroundings (and there is a lot of Jerusalem besides that – it’s the most populated city in Israel). Trying to make it a new autonomous territory will probably just add more complication, not reduce it. So yeah, I think the one-state / federation solution is probably going to be the best option, some day.
(Edit: Naglfar had already said all this much more succinctly, as I was typing.)
I always loved the fact that the keyholder for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is a Muslim (same family for generations, as I recall), since each of the Christian denominations don’t trust each other with the main door key.
@Redsilkphoenix
Yes! They are me. 🙂 My outfits are bit different but yes definitely the overall aesthetic is me and my guys. I don’t have quite that many as the awesome women characters in the video look like they have. Five right now. All wonderful creative partners and gorgeous.
You are so nice to send that to cheer me up. What an awesome super-sweet thought.
After gross troll last night I started to try to alter an workout brief so it was cut like a bikini bottom. I needed it because of the strength, fit and look of the material (elastine and polymide) but it’s too low cut. It’s not an easy material to stitch without it bunching up but they are cheap so if it doesn’t work right I can try another. I’m going to wear it over tights and with matching sports bra that has a fancy complicated thin strap strappy design in the back and with a wide black belt to give a strong accent to the lines. It reminds me of a kind of retro 80s workout look and so the 80s Bananarama video made me think of that and kind of made that a theme for the night, which I like anyway. When I do this outfit with platforms and my hair in a ballet bun with John Frieda sheer blonde gel I end up with a look that we (partners and me) think is just the right combination of severe yet alluring and compelling. 🙂
@Threp:
Yes, exactly. It’s a mess.
(Meanwhile, the Protestants have basically gone “Oh, we can’t have a part of your fancy church? Well we don’t want it anyway, because you’re all wrong and Christ’s grave is actually in a different spot which we had found so there“. And they have a rather lovely garden a little outside the Old City walls. I don’t know how all those different sects divide it, if they even do at all. Again, it’s a mess.)
I’ll stay out of the politics of all this; but speaking of Israel; this is quite interesting.
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium-archaeologists-report-first-cremation-in-israel-9-000-years-ago-1.9066988
@Penny Psmith
No, I’m denying that that ever constituted a moral claim to sole ownership of the place. The establishment of the present State of Israel was categorically wrong, morally and ethically* but it’s far, far to late to stop it, and now we need to deal with the world as it now stands.
* There’s nothing wrong with individual Jewish people, or groups of Jewish people, moving to that place and residing there, and never has been. The part where guns and bombs were used to drive out the existing residents crossed a line, though, and it was a great big neon line.
@Naglfar
The biggest problem with a 2 state solution is determining who gets what parts of an extremely limited supply of arable land and potable water. US States have enough problems woth dividing water among ‘states’ that are actually provinces of a larger nation, it would be far worse there.
@Dalillama
I think Penny’s comment was replying to Ohlmann, who originally suggested forcing all Jews to leave for Europe. I don’t think they were suggesting an exclusive claim.
Yes, I was replying to Ohlmann; sorry for not making that clearer, I was just very upset by his stance (and in that specific bit you quote, by the idea that Zionism was basically just European countries sending people over to colonise for them) and rushed to comment.
I also happen to disagree that the creation of the state of Israel was categorically wrong, although, once again, I do not deny the injustices involved in it. I wish our history was better (and heck, our present too). But it’s almost 3am here and I’m not going to attempt complicated arguments.
(Also, she/her, just for future reference)
@Penny Psmith
Ok, I’ll make sure to use those going forward. Apologies about my last comment, I wasn’t sure which you preferred so I used gender neutral ones.
@Avn
Just go. I don’t know what you think you are achieving with your moral absolutism and eugenics, but it’s not feminism, it’s creepy, and it’s ahistorical.
Christian societies have done all that as well. Do you want to hate Christians as well? Are you really unable to grasp that as in most religions, the average person is not a fundamentalist?
Since you’ve also been concern trolling about LGBT people, I’ll add that there are LGBT Muslims and your “ideas” are not helping them.
Race is a construct, there is no such thing as “white DNA.” Your whole argument is racist bullshit. There is no “problem of white DNA dying out” because not a single part of that sentence makes sense scientifically. Gay people have nothing to do with this, and you’re not helping your case by trying to drag them in.
Are you trying to suggest Nazbolism? I’ll save you the trouble, it doesn’t work.
@ avn
The Zakat foundation here spent the money on re-homing Grenfell survivors and bailing out people whose Universal Credit payments got delayed.
I’ll have to drop them an email and let them know they’re doing it wrong.
https://nzf.org.uk/about-nzf/financials/
@AVN
You are gross and creepy and I resent how you mentioned something that can potentially be beautiful between consenting partners but talked about it in a creepy way.
Your intolerance of other cultures is offensive.
I’m going back to design work now. More positivity.
I don’t know much about Islam, is Zakat similar to the Jewish concept of Tzedakah? The names are similar, so I’d imagine so.
You’d think this racist, Islamophobic garbage pail would at least have the decency to use a consistent email that David could ban, but evidently he’s intent on forcing David to read and allow comment upon comment upon comment of filth, each one inexplicably split into 17 parts.
@AVN
What kind of bizarre bullshit logic is this?
You’re aware that countless different kinds of human societies have existed and died out, and humanity has still survived, right? A change in culture is not obliteration.
“Preserving one’s own kind” is not key to survival. In fact, genetic diversity leads to a species being more adaptable and able to survive.
And leaving that aside, reproduction is not the same thing as survival. I’m never, ever, ever going to have children, and I’m surviving just fine. There is so much more to living than producing extra humans and trying to make sure they look like you. Now fuck off and take your racist garbage with you.
@Viscaria
At this point I’m curious when David will pull the plug on this fellow, I would have thought he’s violated the comments policy enough by now.
As for why he’s using different emails each time, Rhuu suggested it might be because he wants his comments to appear later either to make the thread harder to read later or to make it look like we don’t object.
@Catalpa
Especially when “one’s own kind” is as arbitrarily defined as “the white race” is.