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By David Futrelle
In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.
Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.
If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.
On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”
Down the memory hole he goes.
Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.
You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.
Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.
Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.
In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.
I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?
H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.
I apologize.
– As I mentioned earlier – I am not white. I am from asia.
– Since I can not answer to everyone, I will type every thing here, in one go, and in multiple comments.
– It would clear at least some of the dissapointments, I believe and hope – (continued)
@Rhuu
That could be it. Since I was giving him the benefit of the doubt at first and assumed good faith, I assumed it was a mistake the first few times but got more and more suspicious after multiple people explained it to him with no change in his behavior. Another theory I had was that maybe he was planning to make sockpuppets but screwed up his own plan (given the kinds of trolls we get around here, not beyond the realm of possibility).
(continued)
– I dislike hitler. I dislike nazism’s hatred toward jews.
– Israel must win. Jews must not be allowed to perish.
– So great is the importance of the palestine war, that it might actually decide, in part, the fate of the civilized world in the future. It represents muslims against non-muslims on the most basic level.
– Jews, particularly ashkenazi jews, are a tremendous asset for the human gene pool, due to their intellectual traits. If they perish, their DNA will be lost – Which would be a great loss for humankind.
– Therefore, it is unity that is required, and not disunity, between jews and the white race.
– This was removed 3 times after being posted, on white-operated, anti-islam websites –
– Whites are the greatest enemy of whites.
– Let us press ‘R’ for paying respects. Not F
– So I believe I must be a nazi then, eh?
@PoM
He kept calling me Miss and kept asking several times whether he should say Ma’am or Ms. and unless I misunderstood I didn’t see him doing that to others and he was directing those questions to me.
I took that as a tip-off that he had read just enough of me to see that yes I sure do love my femdom (my own version of it that’s original to me) but of course still misses the point that would be massively obvious to anyone who even skimmed what I put on comments here that my femdom interests are part of my art and spirituality and totally and exclusively for guys I’m physically attracted to and choose in my real life and that talking about them on a feminist blog isn’t an invitation to random trolls online.
Same. Especially the “thank heavens”
He has no idea about femdom, certainly not mine. Ugh.
I mentioned JOI pornography because, I read that hardcore pornography is disrespectful toward women, and should be avoided, and since JOI pornography is –
– Not hardcore
– Has little to no men
– It is mostly just the woman herself making the video her own self.
She is being pro-choice which is a positive outcome.
– And this is why I mentioned it.
The problem with individuals like @ Alan Robertshaw is that they have, in their own minds, convinced themselves, that they are wise.
– It is done through the self-conditioning of the subconscious brain.
– The reason why I say is that, individuals like these, are the ones sabotaging from within, the white race, which includes white women.
– If white men were to die out tomorrow – So will white women.
– The reader should try and let this ‘sink in’ to his subconscious brain.
– All the feminism and effort toward ‘social justice’ in the world, put together, would not be able to compensate for the fact that you are not extant in the first place, anymore, to reap the benefits of it.
(Continued)
Therefore, individuals like alan, serve the purpose of a kind of subtle ‘fifth column’ that does not necessarily seem as such, but indeed, has the tantamount effect.
– And with the exception of the current hazy period, fifth column individuals were shot dead.
@Stacey
He also had some really creepy race fetish stuff going on.
The grossest part to me was when he was asking all the questions about porn. I naïvely answered them because I was still giving just a tiny bit of benefit of the doubt (at that point I hadn’t yet read his racist part), trying to answer honestly. In retrospect, he probably got off on me answering those questions, which in my book is really gross and exploitative because I didn’t consent to my writing being used for sexual gratification.
– Think of the human existence as a tree –
– The foundation of this tree, the root, is survival – Everything else is merely an ‘addition’ upon this foundation. All the scientific progress, technological achievements, cures for diseases – These are all branches of this tree, with survival being the root of the tree.
– Without the root, there can be no tree. Which means, without ensuring survival, there can be no human existence.
– And ensuring survival can not be achieved without self-preservation.
—>No preservation of self —> No preservation of one’s own kind —> No preservation of one’s own society —> No survival.
– And no survival = The end.
Game over.
And just to be really clear I would never want to kink shame anyone and should be the very last person ever to do that. If the questions were just like neutral and respectful about like “how do you see what you do with your men as part of your art and why is that attacking patriarchy” I mean I am definitely open and comfortable answering.
But that wasn’t AVN. The whole thing of “first we must define feminism and then you will truly see I am on your side because racist Nazi racist racist.” and all the “Well I know now like all feminists think that bullshit bullshit.” plus the other stuff I said before piss me off by being obviously racist creep trolling.
Well, if someone wants to be mad about Muslims, immigrants and people of color, Ilhan Omar defeated her primary candidate tonight, despite big money pushing another guy.
@Naglfar
Yeah I was about thinking the same and was about to write something thoughtful in response to the porn questions too but his racist stuff came through right then.
I mean I think if it’s not creepy like he was, I do think talking about various specific things as more or less aligned with sex-positive feminism than other specific things is ok as long as it doesn’t make others uncomfortable. And I know I did that once and kupo pointed it out to me nicely without kink-shaming and I have tried to be more respectful of the community and will keep trying to because the regulars here are wonderful.
But AVN was not like that and had his gross agenda.
@Stacey
I’m not trying to kink shame either, I just think consent of all involved parties is needed. He didn’t have any of our consent when he posted his sexual stuff here, and that was a problem.
@Naglfar
You weren’t kink-shaming. And you also sum things up well.
@ StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved,
I don’t know if this would cheer you up any, but I was recently listening to this 1980’s Bannanarama song (Venus) and thinking about how parts of the official video kinda reminded me of how you describe what you do with your guys.
https://youtu.be/d4-1ASpdT1Y
The two characters in particular that most reminded me of what you describe are the black-haired witch (?) with the huuuuuge cape, and the she-devil in red vinyl.
Hopefully you will enjoy the 1980’s remake of this 1960’s (?) song.
ETA: Wiki says it was first done by Dutch band Shocking Blue.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_(Shocking_Blue_song)
Re: AVN
That was a rather, er, interesting read. I wonder what it means to be “Asian, White-ish”? North Indian? Central Asian? Chinese?
His argument circles back to the patriarchal canard of “women are the key to the continued existence of the species”, which is A) putting women on a pedestal, so not feminist in the least B) homophobic and C) transphobic. Pick up The Handmaid’s Tale to see where that attitude leads, why don’t ya. Women don’t deserve rights because they are useful; women deserve rights because they are people!
And then he had to bring race and religion into it, with implied approval for ethno-states.
Does he honestly think that “if white women received more rights than white men, but at the expense of the rights of PoC, would you accept it (also Muslims go home)” is a useful thought experiment? A strategic “gotcha” meant to spur oneself to interrogate some hidden parochialism?
I never bothered to answer to AVN because every single of his post looked like a troll. I am still sad to have been right.
—
I have discussed the aforementioned canard about females being necessary for specie survival, and it have been pointed to me that it’s pretty much wrong. The thing is, each children require 10 to 20 years of care, of which only 9 months is woman-exclusive ; and a woman can sire 10 to 15 children reasonably with modern care. So actually, what is important is genetic diversity, much much more than men or women. If you have 9 women for each men, you’re probably in just the same jam as the opposite, because the minority sex will need to be carefully monitored to keep the same population, to avoid inbreeding.
In the past that might have been *slightly* more true because worse healthcare mean women had a real chance of dying at each pregnancy. That being said, it was never in the proportion needed for that canard. You alway could have something like 1 women for 2 men ratio and not have more problem than the opposite.
And, to boot, it’s not like they *ever* was such an imbalance. 60%/40% is the biggest I have heard of, and of course the main problem is societal much more than anything biological.
Saying that women are more needed for specie survival is generally speaking a big biology fail in addition to being humanly horrible. And yes, I find it important to point out that the far right isn’t just inhuman, they are also *wrong*. They often try to hide being the excuse of their ideas being ugly but necessary, or ugly but realistic. They almost never are.
@AVN your vile racist fantasies will get no traction here (and you must be pretty stupid to think that they would. From the instant you show your hand and start talking about race, you go from just-possibly-in-good-faith to yet-another-creep).
Piss off.
(CONTINUED)
– There is always a race going on between those groups that can reproduce enough and those that can not – Because the entire game of humankind depends on – Survival.
– More than 99% of all species, amounting to over 5 billion species, that have ever lived on earth, are estimated to have gone extinct. 99 percent. The reader should try and let this ‘sink in’ to his subconscious brain.
– So great is the question of survival.
– When malicious DNA such as this, multiplies, it corrupts the entire human gene pool. Therefore, those individuals that believe, for example, that prisoners should be shown mercy, should realize this –
– Those individuals who pass on their genes the most, survive the most, and in the end, it is all about survival. Survival of the fittest.
– This is why letting criminals reproduce is a grave error. When you give the criminal DNA as much of an opportunity to multiply as the non-criminal DNA, then you have basically given the malicious part of the human gene pool a fighting chance at survival. And from evolution’s point of view, that is anti-survival. Because, as mentioned before, survival is what it is all about.
– By being ‘racist’ and ‘intolerant’ toward muslims, and being an ‘islamophobe’, one is being –
– Anti-homosexuality-phobe
– Stoning-women-to-death-for-sexual-practices-phobe
– Throwing-homosexual-males-from-buildings-phobe
– Anti-lesbianism-phobe
– Second-class-citizen-status-for-women-phobe
– Human-slavery-phobe
– Rape-legal-against-women-phobe
– Female-child-marriage-phobe
– Sharia-phobe
– Death-for-apostasy-phobe
– Terrorism-against-non-muslims-phobe
– Inequality-for women-phobe
– Female-genital-mutilation-phobe
– Male-genital-mutilation-phobe
– Man-beating-his-wife-phobe
– Pro-alcohol-prohibition-phobe
– Pro-marijuana-prohibition-phobe
– Pro-anti-porn-phobe.
– Anti-all-kinds-of-sex-except-for-heterosexual-patriarchal-sex-between-man-and-woman-after-marriage-phobe
– Jihad-phobe
– Chastity-phobe
– Submission-phobe
– Why must one be this phobic?
One more phobia, that deserves much more attention –
– Zakat-phobe – Zakat is a sort of tax on muslims, for the sake of islam, one of the uses of which, is to fund the murders of non-muslims, in order to spread islam.
– The reader is free to google – Jihad fi sabillilah and verify the veracity of the claim
(To be continued, because it takes hours for my comments to appear)
– If someone has any doubt regarding my stance –
– I am an atheist.
– I am not conservative. Nor liberal.
– What I am after, is not women relegated to household and men returning to being the bread-winners, under a patriarchal system.
– What I will propose, is something entirely different.
– If implemented, it may very well transform the very idea of how the society views human reproduction, and make way for returning the white birth rate back to the replacement level.
– What is the strength of whites that they can use against muslims, to defeat islam?
– Intellect
– If muslims have as their strength, unrelenting fanaticism for islam, then whites have their higher intelligence that they can count on.
– What if whites applied their intellect, and –
– Discovered a way to make BOTH left-wing and the right-wing win, at the same time?
– Discovered a way to both legalize homosexuality and STILL keep the birth rate high enough so that the problem of white DNA dying out is resolved?
– Discovered a way to keep both white women and white men united, instead of going their own separate ways?
– I am dead serious. There IS a way.
– Regarding which, I will post later, since as I mentioned before – the comments would take a quite some time to become visible.
@AVN
Your Islamophobia and fetishism around Jews won’t get you traction either. I don’t know when you decided feminism was all about strange theories about race, but that was when you revealed your true colors. Just stop.
Oh great, AVN is back. And his avatar is still changing. I wonder if he’s constantly changing his email in order to aggravate David, who has to keep reading and letting through this dreck.
Don’t care where you’re from; you keep spouting racist and white supremacist garbage, therefore you are being a racist and a white supremacist.
You are aware that you can post more than five paragraphs in a single comment, right? You don’t need to split your rant into 15 different parts.
One, Israel =/= Jewish people. Two, Muslims are not a threat to the civilized world, and Palestinians wanting to be able to live in the location that they have been in for generations is not a threat to Jewish people.
Not being anti-semetic doesn’t make you not racist.
The white race is not being sabotaged. White people are doing just fine. Having a reduced ability to oppress everyone else is not a threat to survival.
No one’s goal is to wipe out white men, so your hypothetical point is completely irrelevant. Additionally, a culture is not a skin color, and ‘white’ is not a culture. If all white men were to somehow magically vanish, the next generation might look a little different, but there’s still nothing stopping white American women or white British women or white French women from passing down American, British, or French traditions and culture to their kids.
@Catalpa
Even aside from his thoughts on Israel and Palestine, his strange views on Jewish people are creepy IMO. I find that his kind of rhetoric about Jews is very common among Evangelical Christians, who pretend to like Jews because they believe that Jews going to Israel fulfills a prophecy to bring about the Rapture, at which point they believe we will all either have to convert to Christianity or go to hell. It’s a deeply dehumanizing and antisemitic view.
And his statements on the “intellectual capabilities” of Jews harken back to antisemitic stereotypes as well. Pretty much every conspiracy theory about Jews is based around some idea that we are intelligent but evil.
Edit:
And he’s now also sending thinly veiled threats at people. Charming.
@Naglfar
Good point, thanks for pointing out those gross and common tropes.
I expect that AVN figures he’s “not antisemitic” in a similar way in which he figures he’s “not misogynistic”.
i.e. “oh, no, I don’t hate [x], I actually love them because they are super useful and we need to make efforts to make sure they are put and kept in their Rightful Place”
It’s still dehumanizing and prejudiced, dude.