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By David Futrelle
In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.
Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.
If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.
On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”
Down the memory hole he goes.
Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.
You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.
Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.
Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.
In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.
I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?
H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.
Breaking news
So, it’s Kamala for President 2024
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/joe-biden-selects-kamala-harris-his-running-mate-n1235771
@Jenora Feuer
So much of what you say is valid x100 in my in person ongoing partnerships with my guys.
Yes, yes, yes. In my art and partnerships we rely on lots of very empathetic communication long before we do anything at all in person. There are people involved besides just me and my man that I’m accepting as partner, people that we both trust so that there is a kind of neutral go-between. Like my mentor and another person who is one of my assistants. They spend as much time as needed and talking as openly as needed for him to feel comfortable expressing what is going to work and what’s ok for our interaction, learning about the physical environment we’ll be in so we all feel safe and so on. They communicate with him and with me back and forth so that by time my guy is with me he knows and I know how we will interact.
It’s like curation. All art collections need curators. People don’t always think of curatorship applying to performance art but it can. It’s people curating their own energy that they share.
Most of what I’m saying is that it just takes communication with a lot of sensitivity and patience.
@Viscaria
I didn’t notice that comment of his. Yikes.
@Avn
Remember intersectionality? Attacking other oppressed groups isn’t helping women, especially when there are women in all those groups.
And what do you mean “going back to their nations?” Many Muslims are born and live in the US or other non-majority Muslim places. Are you suggesting they be sent to other countries just because of their religion?
As well, feminism isn’t about putting women above men. It’s about being equal to men. Feminists do not want to oppress men, we just want to be equal to them.
Yeah, I missed that one too.
@AVN
Just fuck off, you nazi garbage.
So AVN is racist. I won’t say I’m surprised but I am disappointed. ?
@PoM
I had my suspicions when he showed up with a name that also happens to be the initials for a trade magazine in the porn industry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVN_(magazine)
@AVN
What the hell are you talking about?
I’m a pretty generous person, with a terrible trolldar. But this is tripping even MY warnings.
I don’t think you’re ready for this place, if you’re actually here to learn. You need to sit and have a think about what the hell you just said. Because it sounds an awful lot like some creepy race-based porn.
And if you’re just here to get your jollies off…. Jeeeeez, my dude. Jeeez. You’re creepy AF. This is some very very bad behaviour. No one is going to want to be around you, if you keep bringing your boner notes into a discussion.
You also seem to have changed your email again, or it wouldn’t have got caught in moderation. You can choose a fake email, no one cares, but just use the same one so your posts will show up.
Or, if you’re here just for creepy purposes, don’t. We don’t want you.
Oh for fuck’s sake. Didn’t take too long for the mask to slip.
Hey, dude. Remember how you talked about realizing that your previous misogynistic behavior was awful and dehumanizing and something you were ashamed of? Please apply the same thought process to these racist garbage sentiments. Black people and Muslims are people and they deserve the same rights, respect, dignity, and consideration as everyone else.
Any intersectional feminist would find your proposed idea absolutely abhorrent. Stop trying to recruit white women to your white supremacist cause by paying lip service to feminist ideals, it’s vile.
Also, out of pity for whom exactly?
Yeah, I thought AVN sounded like a troll when he said the
“Since I am always at the risk of mansplaining” thing.
Like he thought we would just agree that anything he said was automatically mansplaining, so he could go back and say “oh, evil feminists, see they showed their true colors.” As we think there is no difference between any person of any gender talking about what they know and a man telling a woman he knows more about her body than she does.
Same thing with the putting women above men comment he made. Like we were supposed to say “oh yeah of course glad you understand feminism now” and he could maybe do another told you so to his creepy misogynists friends.
I don’t think he read anything actually we suggested.
I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt first so I put my suspicion aside because he was polite and I know it didn’t feel good the time here when somebody thought I was a troll and other people told that person hold on a minute let Stacey talk. So I put my suspicions aside and that was right but, yeah, here we are with another gross creep and a Nazi too.
@Stacey
This is how I feel as well. Since I know people can change, I tried to give him a chance. Even when he started asking questions about porn that had seemingly little to do with feminism, I tried to answer in good faith. But then when I noticed the racism part, that’s when his chance was up completely.
And of course I maybe should have realized sooner when I noticed what AVN usually stands for (see above).
@ avn
I don’t know if you’ll try to post again, or even if you’re still around, but just in case you see this I’d like to chip in as to why what you did was especially despicable.
Other people here have addressed the main points of your deceit with their customary eloquence. So I just want to add this.
You came here under a false pretence of good faith and asked for help.
That’s what is known as perfidy.
It’s a particularly contemptible form of duplicity. So bad in fact that, when committed in wartime, not only does international law permit summary execution of offenders, it encourages it.
The reason for that is that it makes decent people suspicious of future appeals to their good nature; and thus less likely to offer help, or even the benefit of the doubt, ever again.
Thus caution takes precedence over charity; and genuine supplicants are denied assistance that previously would have been freely given.
You are like the boy who cried wolf; but leaving other people to be eaten.
And that sir is why your actions are so superlatively contemptible.
I don’t know your motives and it’s irrelevant whether it was an attempt at trolling, trying for a ‘gotcha’, or some weird compulsion for sexual gratification.
But the net result is that you have abused the generosity of compassionate people and in doing so you have hurt them, and any future honest seekers of advice; and that makes you beneath contempt.
@AVN
Equality.
I already said that.
Also, your racism is repulsive.
Given the sexual bent of later “questions,” I’d guess AVN’s motives were always a sex thing. A lot of porn is racist, under the flag of “don’t kink-shame me.” I will kink-shame the hell out of people whose kink is harmful, and racist kinks are pretty harmful.
@Alan
It could be any of those or all. It’s probably the first, trolling. If it’s the last it’s probably because he’s read enough of who I am to get all obsessed but not enough to see who I really am and why my connection with my men is part of my art, and what my art really means to be deeply. And the creepy obsession is something he’s just showing here because it’s not in person. He’s probably the kind that in person would be fortunately too scared to bother me which is good because I’m glad to have one less such creep.
It still pisses me off.
@PolicyofMadness
Yeah he evidently read enough of what I share here to know that I’m not romantically or sexually conventional but so TYPICAL misses or ignores no matter how obvious it is that I’m talking about something that I only do with men that I desire and have chosen and the fact itself that I’m with only men I’m really physically attracted to and no others is itself like an essential part of what I talk about. I mean anybody who even cares enough to skim what I write here would know that about me.
One minor caveat on the equality thing. Forgive me a tortuous analogy.
Imagine if in Formula One racing there was one team who, regardless of how well they did in qualifying, were always made to start from the back of the grid. Half way through the season people realise that isn’t fair. So how do you address that?
You could say that from now on the same rules apply to everyone; but then the previous disadvantage would still carry over because the other teams would have had the opportunity to accumulate more points.
So a fairer remedy might be to allow the previously disadvantaged team pole position for a while, just until they have a chance to catch up.
Then you can apply the same rules to everyone.
So the ultimate goal is equality; but the best way to achieve that might be to allow some temporary favouritism to the previously disadvantaged team.
That make any sense?
@Alan
RBG was once asked how many female justices on the Supreme Court would be enough. She said, “Nine.”
@Stacey
I don’t know that he was specifically targeting you. I didn’t notice that anyway.
You have a good way of explaining things Alan
Wut.
Anyway. I was side eyeing this guy from the start but didn’t say anything because I’m always the mean one. I figured I’d hold off for more evidence. Looks like my instincts were correct!
It was something about all the questions about the feminist position on things. As if there’s one singular feminist perspective on most things.
@Policy of Madness
Maybe he wasn’t. I thought he was addressing me all those questions because he headed my nym at the beginning and those were some of the questions he had wanted to target in to me. But it’s hard to tell so maybe you are right.
I’m going to go work on sewing now. 🙂
I need some positivity.
@WWTH
It was also suspicious which things he was asking for perspective on, like Islam.
@Stacey
I thought he was replying to you because you were replying back, not because he knows anything about you and was specifically targeting you. But! I’m not in his head (thank the heavens) and can’t really know. Hopefully he will not return with his racist femdom porn ideas and clutter up the thread any more.
@PoM
Since he keeps changing his email, presumably at some point David will just stop letting him through.
I’m just now looking back at some of his posts I missed originally due to the delay and YIKES. Real creep energy. Like Alan mentioned, in abusing our compassion Mr. AVN really just made things worse all around.
Maybe that’s why AVN kept changing their email, so that they wouldn’t all show up at once. It would look like we’d seen all of AVN’s posts (i think i’ve missed a few, based on the quotes people are using) and were replying to them, as if they weren’t… creepy, i guess.
For anyone reading the thread later, AVN’s comments keep showing up, way late, because they keep getting stuck in moderation. :/ on purpose…?