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By David Futrelle
In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.
Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.
If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.
On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”
Down the memory hole he goes.
Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.
You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.
Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.
Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.
In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.
I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?
H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.
To Rhuu – apparently an illiterati
– Thank you so much for the kind words!
– And you are absolutely on point, regarding what you referred to.
– And also email – Yes, you are correct that I changed the email. And now, I will create an email, specifically for this website, and then post only using that email. Comments going to moderation, and not appearing for hours, breaks the ‘flow’ so to speak.
– But more importantly, it gives me guilt – When a person, especially a woman has replied to me – And I am unable to reply that very instant, it is, in my mind, a kind of an insult for the woman.
– And so, it frustrates me a lot, for not being able to ‘be there’ when it was needed.
– Anyway, if I may ask you certain things?
– If we apply a standardized value to the average value, of average human, and then compare them gender wise, and put them side by side –
– So for the functioning of the world – Would, let us say, 1000 women on the left side, be –
– More valuable than 10000 men on the right side
– As valuable as 1000 men on the right side
– Less valuable than 1000 on the right side
Thank you!
To Naglfar
– Thank you for your assistance! Much appreciated.
– So let us begin –
– I saw your comments regarding muhammad and jesus. They were great! I am actually VERY interested in this area of feminism.
– So my questions are –
– What is the feminist position on islam?
– What is the the feminist position on muslims?
– And I realize, all too well, that there is not a generally accepted feminist position on all matters regarding issues such as these, but when I ask, and get the opinion of several invested, and dedicated feminists –
– And then put them all together, and compare the data.
– I might just get a better idea of exactly what is the DOMINANT, overarching theme, in feminism’s ecosystem, which would go a long way in elucidating feminism’s essence, core.
Cheers.
– I believe I am having a ‘revelation’ moment. After years of devoting my life to this issue, I believe I might have just right now figured it out.
– I am now going to ask just 1 simple question to ALL users here.
– I would really, REALLY like only a 100% honest answer, that comes from your HEARTS because believe me when I say this, – your answer will, at least for me, mean the world!
– So are you ready, friends? (I am on YOUR side)
– So here is the question –
– Can a feminist be 100% against lesbianism?
– Just a YES or a NO would suffice. If you want to elaborate on it, then that is even better.
Thank you in advance, for your completely honest answer, because trust me when I say this – A lot depends on it.
Use the same email every time and that should stop.
That’s not a position most feminists take. You’re welcome to believe that, but you need to be sure you’re believing it for the right reasons, and not because of some need to put women onto pedestals. Feminists are not interested in pedestals. Women are human beings with the right to be flawed and make mistakes, with all that entails, the same as men.
@AVN
Like Policy of Madness said that’s not a feminist belief.
PoM explains things better than I can and I like how they said it. Whatever you believe make sure you examine why you believe it.
I’m a performance artist and a woman who does not have (and doesn’t want) a dating and romantic life like the ones most cishet women have. People here who are regulars know that when they read my posts but I can see how someone who doesn’t might benefit if that’s clarified. I do what I do and enjoy it and believe at the same time in the equality that feminists want for men and women. I see myself as challenging patriarchy while doing living the unique life I lead. Maybe as you read more you will learn about what some thinkers call sex-positive feminism. That is dear to my heart but not all feminists agree with it or think of it exactly the way I do. Like Policy of Madness said there are lots of branches of feminism.
Are we talking about jarring mansplaining experiences? Can we? Because I was in trade school a couple of years ago for my very niche, female-dominated career that most people (including my friend) know almost nothing about, and my friend was showing an interest by asking me what classes I was taking.* I loved talking about it, so I was like, “Oh yeah, I’m taking this, that, and the other thing.” “I don’t see how the other thing would help you do your job,” he said. “Yeah, it’s not really intuitive, but it’s actually massively helpful because of X and Y.” “Yeah, sorry, I don’t think so. That won’t help.” Oh, okay then. My mistake, I guess.
*Well, kind of. He was sort of asking in a “why do you need two years to learn this super basic thing” kind of way. But I’ll give him a pass for that because I have gotten that from people of all genders, including the me of the past back when I was researching the program.
@ Stacey
Can you please tell me – Can there exist a feminist who is 100% anti-lesbianism?
I had my period mansplained at me once. I was told that I could just hold it if I really wanted to. It wasn’t a question (“Can’t you just hold it?”) although that would have been bad enough. It was a statement (“If you didn’t want your period now, you could have just held it.”) I didn’t even bother to respond, except to call him an idiot. Ignorance + arrogance is what leads to mansplanation, and while the ignorance can be cured, the arrogance is a tougher tackle.
Lord give me the confidence of a mediocre white man.
– I am sorry
– I will never ask that question again
– I am not white
– I am from asia. White-ish
I can HELP in the fight. What if I told you, I happen to have a way that we can have our cake, and eat it too? Kill 2 birds with one stone?
– I have the solution, ma’m!
If you give me a chance, I will prove it.
If your answer is yes, then please allow me to post now 🙁
PS – No need to let this comment get posted, obviously, haha. I will post normally after this comment, no one needs to know. Cheers.
I will admit – I have never seen game of thrones.
Ever
Haha!
@Naglfar, Paireon, Moon Custafer, Robert, and everyone else citing dystopian SF:
This just came up on my Atlas Obscura subscription, and seems 57 varieties of relevant:
http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/book-that-imagined-nazi-future-wwii-hitler-gender-swastika-night
@Policy of Madness:
Here’s Gehayi’s classic account of how she, then a twenty-year-old intern, had to tutor a married middle-aged state representative in Remedial Sex Ed, Inside Plumbing Edition—and how that discombobulating level of ignorance directly informs government policy:
http://gehayi.tumblr.com/post/133454492906/profeminist-myfeministawakening-i-was-inspired
@AVN
You’re welcome
It depends on the questions you want to ask. If it’s about something I know about or something I have an opinion on and I’m comfortable answering I will.
Naglfar also said you could ask her questions too and she’s very articulate and knowledgeable so you can ask her things that I don’t know about or wish to answer
Please try and think how maybe saying it this way might not be feminist way of thinking. When you say that it kind of sounds like that I would need your permission to say no if I wanted to but you are being nice and giving that permission by telling me it’s “OK” if I don’t want to answer your questions.
See, I definitely already know it’s “OK” if I don’t want to answer questions or say “no”.
The way you phrased that makes it seem like I don’t have rights until you are kind enough to give them to me.
Better just to ask “May I ask you certain questions about (whatever subject)?” Then let me answer and just accept the answer.
@Viscaria
That is awful. I would have found that really really jarring too.
@Policy of Madness
That is just so unbelievable.
You sum things up much better than I can. That is really a good sum up.
@AVN
Policy of Madness explains it well. And tell me how you reacted to Rebecca Solnit
To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
– Understood. Loud and clear
– May I ask you certain questions about feminism’s stance?
– I googled rebecca solnit. She is great!
🙂
@AVN – I’d also suggest that you confine yourself to *one* question/topic at a time, and not address it to anyone in specific. That means that anyone is free to answer, and also means that no one is required to answer.
If you ask multiple questions, people’s attention is going to be too spread out, and everything will just get bogged down.
And in an example of people not always agreeing – This is re: @Stacey’s point about you ‘giving permission’ to say no.
When I ask something, I will often say “If you can’t, that’s fine. Thanks for your time.” I have some friends who will never say the word ‘no’. Even if they don’t want to do something, or can’t, they won’t tell you that. I like to make it clear, up front, that ‘no’ is not only an option, it is a perfectly reasonable one.
In a sense, I suppose I am giving them ‘permission’ to say ‘no’, but I’m also letting them know that if they can’t do whatever it is I’m asking, ‘no’ is fine and won’t end our friendship.
When people (often women) are socialised that denying anyone anything is a relationship-ending thing, I feel it is important to let them know that a) saying ‘no’ is fine, and b) ‘no’ is a complete sentence, no justification needed. (I’m definitely working on both of these!)
To be clear, I think that everyone always has the right to say no, no permission needed. It’s just that socially, sometimes I need to let people know that there are no consequences for that, so they aren’t tying themselves up into anxious knots about it.
So that’s my take on what you said, and then how @Stacey replied. I don’t think she’s wrong, she makes a good point that I need to think about, but I wanted to share why I personally often will end a request with giving ‘permission’ to say ‘no’.
@Rhuu
That’s how I read it as well, and I do the same thing just to make it extra clear that I won’t be angry or disappointed if they say no. I’m very non confrontational IRL so I try to be clear that I’m not forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want.
@ Rhuu
– Understood. And completely agree with what you said.
– I have certain queries regarding persons of color, muslims, and feminism, that I would like to understand more about.
– I am obviously not able to understand these things properly, and have a hard time comprehending what is going on.
– So if someone could help me by letting me know –
– If there were a way to get women, especially white women at the top, white males below them, and homosexuality completely and entirely accepted, and ingrained in the society, and abortions becoming 100% free and legal –
– BUT with the exception of black women, and black males not getting what they desire…and muslims going back to their nations.
– Would women, in particular white women, who are feminists, be willing to at least give it a try and see how it goes?
– Out of pity, at least?
@AVN
I can definitely see how maybe you meant it just exactly like Rhuu said too. And if so that would be being considerate, so thank you.
@Rhuu
@Naglfar
You both make good points and show how it’s important to consider how we’re socialized affects how we see things.
To miss Stacey
– As a man, I can not even begin to imagine how hard it must be for women to put up with male harassment and violence all the time.
– I really feel for you.
– Which reminds me – Do white women get harassed by black males too?
What are your thoughts ma’m? (And is ma’m an acceptable word for addressing women?)
– Are there more sex-positive feminists or anti-pornography feminists today?
– There is a pornography genre called – JOI.
– Does it meet the standards of feminist pornography?
– And does size matter??
It certainly would be great to know the answer to these.
In online role-play, I’m often a bit of a tease. And I’ve said before that being a good tease requires a lot of empathy.
First, you have to know which buttons to push on the person you’re playing with.
Second, and more importantly, you have to be able to tell when to stop pushing, because the person you’re playing with may not feel comfortable saying ‘no’ outright. I’ve been on both sides of this.
It’s always a bit of a balancing act, and getting to know people involves getting to know where on the balance bar they’re standing, because everybody’s a little bit different.
@AVN
Tip: This is not a good place or time to discuss your boner.
@Avn
I would imagine the former but I’m not sure.
The idea of feminist pornography is less about what the porn itself entails and more about how certain aspects are depicted or processed. For instance, feminist pornography usually emphasizes female pleasure on set and off set is based around treating actresses equally and respecting consent (i.e. not forcing anyone to do acts they’re uncomfortable with). So some porn in that genre could be feminist if it features those aspects. Does that make sense?
This one is a bit more complicated. Some people do prefer larger or smaller partners, while others have no preferences. If you are specifically asking about women, IIRC surveys show that most women do not think size is an important part of sex for them. What most agree is more important than size is skill and foreplay. Of course, everyone is a bit different, so YMMV.
Your comments are still showing up delayed slightly and your avatar is changing. It seems like you might be using a different email each time. Try sticking with one email for posting and your comments will appear sooner as they won’t go to moderation.
Did you come here being all “I have seen the error of my ways, women are great actually,” so that you could try to get our buy-in for some white nationalism and Nazi shit? GTFO.
“Black women and black males not getting what they desire” so weird how you’re not being very specific here. Is it because if you were any more precise about what you think Black people shouldn’t have it will become obvious that you’re talking about basic human rights?