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By David Futrelle
In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.
Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.
If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.
On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”
Down the memory hole he goes.
Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.
You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.
Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.
Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.
In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.
I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?
H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.
To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved –
1 – I am sorry for not being able to reply for so long. Because my comment did not show up for quite a long time, I thought it never will, and did not look at the comments. Only just now I saw your comment, seconds ago.
2 – I did not know what cishet means. I looked it up and yes, I am cishet.
3 – I have bookmarked the link you gave me. Seems to be very interesting. I will start reading it, after posting this comment.
4 – Thank you so, very much for your assistance.
5 – Since I am a cishet, in addition to all this is being very new to me, I may make mistakes in what I write, like for example, saying the incorrect term instead of the right term that should be used – so PLEASE, please do not think that I did it on purpose.
And I will of course only listen and hear.
Thank you again.
@Hambeast
It is so nice to see you! Welcome back!
To Naglfar
– Thank you very much for the welcome.
– Man! This feminism is some powerful stuff. I just looked up – intersectionality and just this one word has given me a glimpse at the fact that this world is world is complex, deep and brilliant. I am very impressed.
– I will now look at the side bar for info as you mentioned.
– And I was unable to reply promptly because as you said – my comment actually did not appear for quite some time. So I never realized that someone had replied to me.
Thank you again for your assistance.
To Policy of Madness
– You are correct. I should look for information myself.
Thank you
@Hambeast
Yes, I mentioned the comic because of the idea of Jesus and Mohammed together. To be clear, I’m not endorsing it or the group that spawned it.
Thanks, Stacey! I’m usually around lurking and many of my infrequent comments turn out to be ‘drive byes’ because I forget where I dropped them and don’t check back. Did I mention I’m an old? Also, cannabis has kind of made the short-term memory thing a bit worse.
It’s been a good long while since I’ve seen a big, multi-page comment thread here and I’ve been enjoying myself greatly.
Valentin, it’s great to see you again, my friend! I really liked this
It’s a good reminder for those of us who would be advocates. Too bad it’s too long to fit on a t-shirt!
@Naglfar:
Yes, yes, I am familiar with it. An interesting idea, blinded by much of the same sort of ‘othering’ that it claimed to be against.
@Jenora Feuer
The reference to Mohammed driving Jesus’s cab reminded me of it. It sounds like the setup to some sort of religion joke: “Mohammed is driving Jesus’s car…”
Indeed, I’d say this was the fate of New Atheism as a whole. Pretty quickly Dawkins et al were sounding almost exactly like the religious fundamentalists they claimed to be against, which of course meant that a lot fell into the same conservatism that the fundies were into. Last I checked he’s defending pedophiles and talking about how great “Western civilization” is.
@Avn
Privilege can affect us all in ways we don’t realize and if we aren’t careful blind us to things that are unfair to others. I’m a white woman and benefit from white privilege and to be honest benefit from classist privilege sometimes but awareness and honesty help.
I hope you enjoy reading! I would pour over the textbook again and again in my first Intro to Women’s Studies class in college. It was like a whole new universe. It helped free me and started me on the path away from being ashamed of being seen as the thin little chatterbox blonde girl who would refuse to change out of her dance clothes after ballet class and demand to wear them longer.
@Hambeast
I know, I come and go too! I like it when I get to see a good long troll-batting thread and love all the intelligent people here anyway even in the threads without creepy trolls.
@ Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
– Thank you for your reply, and attention.
– If possible, can I ask you certain questions?
– It is completely OK if you say no, by the way.
Thank you
@Avn
Your comment didn’t appear at first because you were in moderation. Moderated comments get released whenever David has a chance to look them over, but appear in the list in the order they were posted. Now that you are out of moderation (it seems) your comments should appear when they are posted.
Note, however, that WordPress is experiencing an issue right now where newly-posted comments don’t necessarily display properly. If this occurs to you, you can usually bypass the issue by deleting the comment number and page number from the URL, then reloading.
Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Questions asked in good faith generally find a warm reception here. Some people are more inclined than others to provide Feminism 101 stuff, but the others are likely to just ignore you and not jump on you. But like I said before, feminism is not just a single thing with a single view upon which all feminists agree. There are multiple branches of feminism with varying degrees of tolerance for the status quo. I lean more radical than most, and I have very little tolerance for the status quo. I feel like almost every aspect of modern Western society should be closely interrogated to find out what it’s really about, and who really benefits, and I believe that the current system is basically rotten to the foundations and would benefit from a complete overhaul starting from the ground assumptions up. There are other branches of feminism that aren’t quite so harsh, and so the answers you would get from me and the answers you would get from a more liberal feminist may not be the same.
@AVN
Intersectionality is very valuable as a concept both within feminism and beyond, as it also is key in other civil rights movements.
One pro tip for the future is to steer clear of anyone calling themself a “gender critical feminist” (sometimes abbreviated as GC). Despite the name, it is often short hand for an ideology that uses pseudofeminist-sounding language to reinforce patriarchy and hate on LGBT people.
To Policy of Madness
– Thank you for that very helpful post. I hope that this comment appears instantly.
– I have SO MUCH to ask, that I do not know where to begin.
– Since I am always at the risk of mansplaining, I will refrain from providing my input, unless it is necessary.
– I absolutely agree that the western society needs change.
– What kind of change, however, is what makes the difference.
– I, for my part, regardless of any other outcome, would first and foremost, like women to gain the status that women deserve.
– Which I believe is HIGHER than that of males.
– But I will leave it at this, for now.
– I actually have a LOT to say as well, but I prefer, for the time being, as Miss Stacey said – to listen more.
– Thank you
To Naglfar
– Thanks for the tips!
– I must admit, I knew that feminism is not exactly a clear-cut concept, but I did not know that it is this complicated.
– It is great to learn these new things.
– However, the more that I learn about feminism, the more my questions increase, instead of decreasing! Haha
Comments are still going to moderation, unfortunately. I am staring at the screen and reloading for the last 12 minutes. Nothing.
Welcome back, Hambeast!
You just reminded me of a Golden Age comic book, “Spacehawk” by Basil Wolverton. In one pre-WWII issue, a grotesque caricature of both Hitler and Mussolini – ‘Mussler’ – announces his plan for a surprise attack on Canada. His craven, bootlicking general staff enthusiastically endorse the plan, except for General von Hambeast, who bluntly warns him that it will end, at best, in ignominious failure.
He is, of course, correct.
@AVN – your avatar keeps changing, which means you are probably putting different emails in the ’email’ field. Stick to one, and you should stay out of moderation. (Also, if you change your screen ‘nym/name, you will go back into moderation.)
Re: status for women – careful about saying ‘women deserve higher status than men’. That’s a strawman anti-feminists like to use. Feminists don’t want to be better, they just want to be equal. And an intersectional feminist wants all of the other privileges to also be addressed.
There is lots to learn and think about, in feminism. I am still learning, all the time! I’m grateful when people who are different than i am share their thoughts, struggles, and passions. It allows me to learn more, and to strive to be a better ally all the time.
I’m glad you are looking into it. I hope you learn a lot! Admitting that one was wrong about ones former beliefs is probably one of the most difficult things we can ever do, so congrats on that.
@AVN
That’s a good thing usually. It means you’re thinking about it deeply.
If you have any specific questions I’m happy to do my best to answer them.
@AVN
A man isn’t always at risk of doing that just by saying something at all but instead when he talks about something that he doesn’t really know about and expects women just to go along with it because he’s so used to women kind of deferring to him because he’s a man.
I think you will see more if you read the famous article Rebecca Solnit wrote about here experiences with mansplaining http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/13/opinion/op-solnit13?pg=1. Did you see it maybe already?
She is brilliant. I hope you reflect on what she wrote but if I had to say it I think mansplaining is mostly men being presumptuous that they always know more than a woman just because she’s a woman regardless of how much she really knows about the subject or her own experience with it. Men can afford to be presumptuous that way because of privilege.
Once I was talking with a group of people both men and women about what it feels like to me to be harassed and how I can’t thrive creatively when it happens all the time because of how stress inhibits creativity. There was a guy who said that shouldn’t really matter and he couldn’t see how that would make a difference for something like art.
That guy wasn’t an artist himself. He was engineering technician. And he’s never been harassed and felt pressured just for being himself. And he didn’t know that the week before the leader of my women artists group gave us an article from a psychology journal to a read about that and we had read and discussed it.
So he had no idea what the hell he was talking about while I lived it but he is used to women always thinking he’s the expert in everything and he thinks that’s how it should be no matter what the subject or person.
So he was definitely mansplaining the connection between harassment, stress and creative inhibition to me.
But if he was talking about data gathering in his lab and he was the only engineering technician there and I was listening that’s not mansplaining or ‘splaining of any kind because he’s talking about stuff that he actually knows about and that may be his lived experience.
And like Rhuu says watch out for sayings that are common antifeminist strawman claims like “if a man says anything at all it’s automatically mansplaining.” That’s a common antifeminist strawman but Rebecca Solnit and women like her show it’s not a man saying anything at all but a man speaking presumptively from a position of privilege.
Good for you for being willing to read and think!
@Jenora Feuer:
The highest speed of ADSL I can get here is a couple of MBPS. If there is higher speed ADSL that too must be limited to the bigger cities.
To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
– Excellent explanation! And I believe you are absolutely correct.
– Let us try and get deeper into this (with your permission)
– Can you please explain to me, certain aspects that I am about to refer to?
– 1) What is a feminist’s ideal world like? In regard to the status of men and women?
2) What is YOUR ideal feminists world like? In regard to the status of men and women?
– When and IF you do answer these, the difference, if any, just MIGHT give us a value, that we will define as, let us say – X
– And then when we compare the results from let us say, other feminists, and then put the data together – We just MAY get a little closer to CLEARLY DEFINING feminism in our brains.
And THIS I believe is the ROOT of the problem –
– For example – Let us say that scientists wish to cure covid – Do you think they would be able to do so, without having a clearly defined idea of what covid actually is?
– Of course not.
Likewise – If we wish to cure misogyny, the cure for which is obviously feminism – Then would we be able to do so, without having a clearly defined idea of what feminism actually is?
– I believe not.
And hence, I consider it critically important, that we first, in the beginning itself, establish a clearly defined idea of WHAT exactly feminism is.
– And then dive deeper.
(Continued below)
(Continued from above)
To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
– Let us say that someone is watching our planet, and he is trying to understand how our planet functions.
– What does he see?
– He sees 2 genders – Male and female
– He sees that female is the one bringing life to the planet.
– And he also sees that female is the one raising humans, sacrificing for them, and providing an indispensable service for the survival of the human species.
– And survival of human species = EVERYTHING.
Therefore – my question is this –
– Will this person watching the planet think –
1 – Female is more important than male for the survival of the species.
OR
2 – Both male and female are EQUALLY responsible for the survival of human species?
– Which one do you think is the correct option?
– Number 1 or 2?
To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
– Is it OK for a man to address a woman as – Mam?
– Mam VS Miss – Which one is better?
– Which one is more formal? And which one is more informal?
Again – you don’t have to, or need to, answer ANYTHING that I ask.
I am just asking, because I have to ask, because I HAVE to learn. But it is you who decides whether or not it is worthy of being answered.
– Thank you again for your replies, support, and attention.
Cheers.
To Miss StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved –
– I am starting to read the link that you gave me. Thank you for that!
– Forgot to ask –
– What is the meaning of – Niceguy (TM)? Is it a different, feminist version of the nice guy? Or is it merely feminists OWNING the term, as they should?
– What are your thoughts on alpha men?
– What are your thoughts on beta men?
– Are beta men fit to reproduce? Should beta men reproduce in the first place?
Thank you.