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Now is the time for A Voice for Men to ask: “Are we the baddies?”

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By David Futrelle

In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.

Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.

If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.

On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”

Down the memory hole he goes.

Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.

You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.

Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.

Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.

In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.

I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU&t=0s

H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.

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Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ opposable thumbs

did the à just get added arbitrarily, at some time post mortem, or was there a reason for it do you know

Nobody seems sure. There is a theory people got the name confused with, or copied, that of Thomas à Kempis.

But as John Stripe wrote in The Memorials of Thomas Cranmer

“It is a small error, but being so oft repeated deserveth to be observed and corrected. The name of that archbishop was Thomas Becket; nor can it otherwise have found to be written in any authentic history, record, calendar, or other book. If the vulgar did formerly, as it doth now, call him ‘Thomas à Becket’ their mistake is not to be followed by learned men.”

I can really imagine the tone of voice when he said that to people at parties.

skimmingway
skimmingway
4 years ago

@Ohlmann

“In videogames the archetype of the rude teenager is often actually an adult.”

In video games, androgynous teenagers defeat evil gods through the power of friendship, and Italian plumbers ride dinosaurs. Maybe don’t use video games as your point of reference for something that exists in reality?

Valentin
Valentin
4 years ago

Video games also exist in reality and influence the way people think. There is very toxic mysoginy in online video games, even old ones like l4d2, the community there is often racist, homophobic, mysoginy, anti-Black and transphobic. There are many toxic places in video game community. These influence people in real life and changes their behaviour. First it is ironic, then they really believe it. Good online communities have moderators and rules to stop this but some do not. There is a lot of toxic masculinity in video games. I plan online l4d2, CSGO and things like this. I like FPS but the communities there are garbage.

It is also very easy to recognise the memes from these communities. They are not as smart as they think they are. I can tell becuase I know.

The way you ‘argue’ just shows again and again your ignorance.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

@skimmingway : you *do* understand I talk about player you know ? The real part of the videogame, the guy and gals playing them. In them, in case you don’t know, a lot are rude and stupid, and when you get to actually find them in real life, they are adults. That often flount how well they do in life and try to make sure every one know how intelligent they are.

A famous lawsuit in France opposed a bunch of angry gamers, who were posting in a forum called 18-25, allegedly for 18y to 25y people. The younger was well over 30.

On one hand, you would need to be exceptionally a tool to not understand that I talk about real humans. On the other hand, well. It’s you. Not sure you can understand how to make lukewarm water.

skimmingway
skimmingway
4 years ago

@Ohlmann @Valentin

This is a fucking waste of my time. I don’t even know why I bothered coming back here; idiots.

Valentin
Valentin
4 years ago

When he is shown real arguments and evidence, Skimmingway runs away. ?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

Well, of course. He wasn’t taught that he could be wrong, so his belief system collapse as soon as people show him that he is wrong.

I do believe his life is suffering and that he need help. Not me that will give him that however.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 years ago

@Skimmingway

people as far left as him

Do you seriously think Obama is far left or are you joking?

you are looking to cover up that final spot labelled “antisemite” on your bingo card

Don’t worry, you got that one covered when you endorsed Pat Buchanan.

You probably also see visions of Twinkies copulating with Swiss-Rolls

What does that even mean? If you think you’re such a great author, maybe try including metaphors that make sense?

This is a fucking waste of my time. I don’t even know why I bothered coming back here; idiots.

You can leave whenever you want.

@Surplus

the closest major American political figure to the Antichrist is Donald Trump

https://www.benjaminlcorey.com/could-american-evangelicals-spot-the-antichrist-heres-the-biblical-predictions/
@Ohlmann
A Twinkie is a kind of pastry, I don’t know what a Swiss Roll is, but I’ve never pictured copulating Twinkies.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ naglfar

I don’t know what a Swiss Roll is

“How do you make a Swiss roll?”

“Push him off a mountain.”

(I’ll get my coat)

But they’re a type of dessert. This is a particularly posh example. A vegan one no less.

comment image

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Do not trouble me; I’m looking to do battle with whales, not goldfish.

*Throws stinky blowhole water at Skimmingway*

Anyway, I’m sure the troll was thinking specifically of the Little Debbie Swiss rolls.

Hostess and Little Debbie products are cheap and mocking people for eating them is definitely a classist dog whistle.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 years ago

@WWTH

Hostess and Little Debbie products are cheap and mocking people for eating them is definitely a classist dog whistle.

I think he was also trying to fat shame, those two are often linked.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

I remember as a kid reading imported American comics. There were a lot of Twinkie related adverts and editorial in those. They seemed magical and exotic; like Sea Monkeys, and all those things you could get by selling something called Grit (which I believe was a magazine of some kind)

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw
Is this the Grit you were talking about?

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

WWTH : thank for the additional context. If the intent was a classist attack, it make it even more stupid and hilarious, because if there is a problem I don’t have, it’s making meets ends ; rather I try to prioritize correctly what money go to what charity or “good cause”.

Also, I am a big food snob and go to an independant chocolate maker for chocolated-coated hazelnuts because M&M’s isn’t good enough. (too sugary in particular – and the european one are much less sugary than the american one already …)

(of course, no offense intended to the people that either can’t afford better, or can but find that Mars Incorporated do a good job)

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 years ago

@Ohlmann
I don’t care much for the plain M&Ms but I quite enjoy the peanut butter filled ones when I can find them. The one time I do like M&Ms is if they are baked into a cookie or placed on top of ice cream or yogurt rather than by themselves.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 years ago

@ naglfar

I’m not sure; but I don’t think so.

This was a typical advert back then. The prizes were amazing; you could get BB guns! (although one speculates it might not quite have been the road to riches that they suggested)

comment image

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 years ago

@Alan
When I was in elementary school we had fundraisers that were sort of like that, where we were supposed to sell things (usually candles or various trinkets) to win prizes. The catch was that one had to sell hundreds or thousands to win any prizes, so nobody I knew ever won any.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
4 years ago

Having only recently switched from ADSL, i can tell you it is more than enough to stream with. In fact, two adults were working from home using a 10 Mbps up/1Mbps down connection for months.

VDSL, what i am on now, has 15 Mbps down and 10Mbps up!!!!!!!!!! And life is BETTER. Not because of streaming (that hasn’t changed much), but because of uploading for work. I’s gone from about 10 minutes to one!!!!!!!!!!! (This is HUGE, and i am super excited for it!)

My point is: you can stream on ADSL. I did for seven years.

Re: rent in toronto – yes, it really is that high. I have a friend who is moving to the maritimes, and is going to buy a *house* with space for an *office* and a yard so they can get a *dog*. For like, 300k??? God i wish. Something similar in town would be like… over a million for sure. And probably a fixer upper at that.

Do jobs pay well enough? No. The Liberal government who was ousted had introduced legislation to bring the minimum wage up to 15$/hour, in a series of steps. The con government immediately cancelled it. There was one increase.

I am paying a large chunk of my income in rent, and i only have as nice a space as i do because i’ve been here for years. I have friends who are having to move, i don’t think they will stay on the city. The only thing that is ‘affordable’ is an apartment in a basment. Those (here) are usually six foot or so in height, probably illegal, and just overall sad.

Air b&b is a huuuuge issue, with people chewing through the existing spaces that could be rented long term.

All that is being built are freaking CONDOS with two bedrooms IF YOU ARE LUCKY. Where do families go?

Lots of the condos are bought by foreign people, and rented out (so absent landlord who lives around the world) or just sit empty. There was an article about how someone took images of buildings, to track how many had light on.

In all, photos were taken of 1,362 different units across the fifteen different buildings. Of those, 76 were empty which works out to 5.6%, which is significant.

To put this in perspective — according to CMHC 206,392 condo units started construction between 2008 and 2018, or an average of 20,639 per year. If the 5.6% vacancy rate holds across the entire condo stock in Toronto that would mean that we have at least two years worth of supply sitting empty.

Of course, not every building is the same.

In buildings were AirBnB utilization is reportedly very high, such as the Ice towers, the vacancy rate appeared to be very low. For other buildings, the rate reached as high as 13.5%.

It’s a small study, but i believe a significant one. A different article talked about how, when asked if he could set up cameras on their condo building to look at other buildings, the owners refused permission. I believe this was just buildings he could see from his own condo.

Places near reliable transit are often very expensive, since they’re desirable.

Rent control for buildings built after some point in the 90s is non existant. In 2017, when that change happened, people’s rents SKYrocketed. (Cw: this is a globe and mail link, sorry. The article is fine, do NOT click any trans stuff, if it pops up.)

The exemption for homes built after 1991 was originally part of a piece of legislation with roots in the Residential Premises Rent Review Act of 1975, which sanctified rental guidelines and restricted rental increases and evictions. The 1975 law changed over the course of its lifetime and eventually included a rotating five-year adjustment period that gave newly built homes time to find their appropriate market value; after five years, the home would be placed into rental regulation. The rotating exemption was last updated in 1991. Five years later, after Mike Harris and the Progressive Conservative Party came to power, the law was reworked to say that homes built or occupied after Nov. 1, 1991, were not included under rental regulation.

The liberals were going to fix this. Ford (the current conservative government) removed that part of the bill, i believe. Or changed it. I think 1991 might be covered, and the new year is 2018?

The Progressive Conservatives touted the amendment to the Residential Tenancies Act — which exempts from rent control units that had not been previously occupied before Nov. 15, 2018 — as a way to encourage investors to build more properties and increase housing supply in a market that is facing a crisis. But industry experts have warned that the policy is likely to lead to more tenants being evicted as they face exorbitant rent increases.

My point is… shit is bad in Toronto. I think it’s bad across Canada, though Toronto and Vancouver in particular are horrifically bad.

This is just the reality, and ontario’s current con government isn’t going to fix it. Federally, there’s no will to fix it. I have no idea how anyone comes to this city, now. If my landlords were to decide to ‘renovict’ me, i’d probably have to leave the city.

That’s illegal, btw. What’s supposed to happen is that the renovicted person just moves back in, when renovations are done. What happens is that the landlord rents out the space, and the existing tenant is just shit out of luck. They can also evict me for ‘family’, who just need to stay here 6 months before they can re-rent. They could probably double what we’re paying, if they went on the open market right now. We’re hesitant to ask for repairs and inprovements, for fear of them deciding we’re too much trouble, and just evicting us.

Hopefully that’s enough information to explain the absolute shithole that is the toronto real estate market, and the rental market. It’s bad.

TL;DR – The rental/housing market in major canadian cities? BAD.

Catalpa
Catalpa
4 years ago

I also continue to think there is something fishy if Toronto have litteraly twice the rent of Paris for students. Maybe Canadians are massively better paid than french, or there is something that skew the comparison massively. I mean, a recurring problem in Paris is how low wage jobs cannot inhabit anywhere near Paris, because paying half your pay for rent isn’t survivable. Are every convenience store manned by robots or what ?

Rhuu explained how fucked the rental situation is in Toronto better than I could have. If you’re wondering how anyone can afford to rent/work in Toronto, as far as I know, it’s primarily these options:

-Needing to spend a huge chunk of your wages on rent, therefore being unable to save or afford almost anything else, either living hand-to-mouth or sinking ever deeper into debt
-Cramming as many people as possible into rentals designed for much less capacity
-Commuting ridiculous distances every day in order to live in an area that’s slightly more affordable. (Kitchener is about a 1.5 hour drive away from Toronto and it’s housing and rental costs are being impacted by the Toronto market, to give you an idea of distances.)
-Living somewhere illegal or incredibly precarious in order to have somewhere more affordable.
-Some combination of the above options

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

@Alan:
Ahh, yes, the ‘Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument’ paper. I’ve read through that. A fine piece of Canadian legal scholarship, meant to help set out arguments for use by other judges who had to deal with idiots like these.

One odd issue is just how many of the idiots trying to get away with these sorts of arguments use the explicitly U.S.-based ‘Sovereign Citizen’ versions of the arguments even in Canada, where a fair number of the arguments make even less sense than usual because several of the things they refer to aren’t the same here.

That’s probably explained by the part of the OPCA paper which talks about how many of these people are following ‘gurus’. A lot of the ‘sovereign citizen’/’freeman on the land’ types are really like the lower levels in a multi-level marketing scheme: the only people getting anything useful are the ones selling the crap to their ‘downlines’.

@Skimmingway, Naglfar:

people as far left as him

Do you seriously think Obama is far left or are you joking?

Yeah, no kidding… in terms of policies, Obama was about as ‘far left’ as Richard Nixon. If you actually listed Nixon’s policy positions without his name attached, modern Republicans would castigate him as a commie pinko. Heck, if you actually listed Reagan’s policy positions without his name attached, a lot of modern Republicans would complain about how left-wing they are… and already have.

@Rhuu:
The ‘blogto’ link I had above mentioned that at least part of the cause of the recent drop in rents in Toronto was due to the explicit tightening-up of the rules surrounding AirBnBs.

I was incredibly lucky on this, admittedly, managing to actually buy my house back in the mid to late 1990s before the upward ramping got too fast. That said, I’m not currently renting any part of the place out: it’s not large, and I really don’t have the time or energy to handle the business of renting a place. I bought it from the previous owner after having rented the basement from him before he had to move out to follow a job… and yeah, the basement still has a towel wrapped around one of the radiator pipes that goes across the hallway because the previous owner kept clipping his head against it because the ceiling was so low down there.

I think it’s time for another round of Spirit of the West’s song ‘Profiteer’, which was all about the people who evicted their tenants in Vancouver so they could make more money renting to the tourists there for Expo ’86.

There’s a cold wind blowin’ through the old east side; it cuts with the devil’s curse.
They’re turning our people into the streets, while the landloards line their purse.
With the greenback dollar of the tourist trade, there’s a fortune to be had;
Make way for the out-of-towners, for the tenants it’s just too bad.

This appears to be their attitude: kick ’em until they’re down.
They’re only welfare cases and pensioners and they’re easily pushed around
We’ve invited the world to come and stay and celebrate the fair
I wonder if the world will understand the homeless walkin’ there.

I’m alright jack, and how ’bout you?
Gonna catch me a wave that’s rollin’ through and turn a trick or two.
I’m alright jack, no flies on me!
I’m within my rights, my conscience clear! I am the profiteer!

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 years ago

@Jenora Feuer

If you actually listed Nixon’s policy positions without his name attached, modern Republicans would castigate him as a commie pinko.

Plus, if Obama had created the EPA Republicans would never let us forget it, yet since Nixon did it they conveniently avoid acknowledging that.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 years ago

Well, that’s … problematic, to say the least.

For France specifically, one of the rising problem is actually for small owners of rented places. Similar to french taxi licenses, the buy-in price is higher and higher, which leave them with a ton of debt. To compound that, there’s taxes indexed on the value of your goods, so they pay a lot of taxes regardless of how they use it.

It mean they have a ton of financial pressure to rent them as high as possible ; and increasingly they count on selling it at a later point to finish their debt before going in retirement. If the rent price or the sell price go down, a lot of them would go into bankruptcy.

I hope, but don’t hold my breath on, the governement actually realizing the problem and helping with that time bomb. And I sure hope the canadian don’t have that problem on top of mad rents.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago

@Ohlmann:
Oh, I know people who could go for rants about the Toronto Taxi Licencing situation, too…

Basically, there are two classes of taxi licences here. The first one were fairly general, could be bought by anyone, and then you could hire drivers. A lot of them are owned by numbered companies. (The taxi is required to display the name of the owner on the fare sheet, and I’ve been in a few.) Because there weren’t new licences being granted for a while, buying a licence off another owner was the only way to get one for a while, and the prices were far out of reach of most people, especially people such as recent immigrants looking for jobs.

So, the city created a second class of licence called an ‘Ambassador’ licence, where the owner also had to be the driver. These licences were much cheaper because they couldn’t be used as trade chips, and the city could cap the cost. They’re not without their own problems, though: there’s a ‘timeout’ period on the licence where if you don’t use it for a long enough period of time, it gets revoked. This was originally to keep people from hoarding licences that they weren’t using, but unfortunately there’s no exception in the law for, say, the driver being in the hospital for a few months. There have been a few cases of taxi drivers who lost their licences (and only income) because of an accident or illness, and because the ‘Ambassador’ licence requires that the owner also be the driver, they couldn’t get someone else to take over for them temporarily, either.

(Due to not owning a car, I’ve used taxis a fair bit when needing to carry lots of stuff with me, though I use public transit most of the time when I don’t need a trunk. I’ve run into all sorts of people that way. One driver and I had an ‘only in Toronto’ discussion based on the fact that he was from Pakistan and his name was Muhammad, while the taxi owner listed on the licence was Portuguese, and his name was Jesus. So, yes, Muhammad was driving Jesus’ taxi. Apparently they got along pretty well, and it wasn’t the first time he’d had this discussion.)

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 years ago

@Jenora Feuer

Muhammad was driving Jesus’ taxi

I assume you are familiar with the Jesus and Mo comics?

Hambeast
Hambeast
4 years ago

Schnookums Von Fancypants – I know, me too! Except USAF vet here. I was active before the AF (and especially the AF Academy) turned into the US Jesus Force. Yep, I’m an old!

Naglfar – Ah, yes. The New Atheists, who were known as the “gnu atheists” over at Pharyngula back in the day.

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