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Now is the time for A Voice for Men to ask: “Are we the baddies?”

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By David Futrelle

In 2010, men’s rights lawyer Roy Dean Hollander wrote an inflammatory piece for the men’s rights hate site A Voice for Men declaring that men might be forced to take up arms to defeat what he saw as the tyranny of feminism.

Several weeks ago, Den Hollander took his own advice, gunning down the son and husband of a female judge he had tangled with in the past; the son died of his wounds. Several days earlier he killed rival men’s rights attorney Marc Angelucci.

If you thought Den Hollander’s murders would have occasioned some soul searching on the part of the folks at AVFM, you would be dead wrong. Site foinder Paul Elam and others associated with the site offered no apoligies for publishing Den Hollander’s screed (or for a later post by Elam effusively praising him as a “real man”); instead they insisted to anyone who would listen that Den Hollander wasn’t a real men’s rights activist at all and had nothing to do with them.

On Tuesday, AVFM published a post by Gary Costanza referring to Den Hollander’s murder of Angelucci which somehow managed to avoid mentioning both his name and his previous connection to the site, referring to him only as a “demented person.”

Down the memory hole he goes.

Den Hollander – who killed himself shortly after his assault on the judge’s family – was not the only “demented person” in AVFM’s past.

You may be familiar with the name Chris Cantwell – he’s perhaps better known as “the Crying Nazi,” infamous for a teary video he put out after hearing that there was a warrant out for his arrest for several counts of assault at the notorious Unite the Right rally in 2017. Before going full Nazi, you see, Cantwell wrote a number of pieces for AVFM on such topics as IQ, the evils of gun control, and feminists “who demonize men and white people.” When, at the time he was writing for AVFM, I criticized his online harassment of some of his many enemies, Elam wrote a post defending Cantwell and advising me to kill myself.

Cantwell, not only a political activist but quite the gun enthusiast, has been a busy boy in the last several years; his rap sheet is too long and complicated to easily summarize here, but he’s served time for assault and currently sits in jail awaiting trial on charges of threats and extortion against a fellow neo-Nazi. Given his love of guns and his utter lack of impulse control, I think it’s kind of a miracle he hasn’t shot anyone yet.

Over the years, Elam has befriended and published several other men’s rights activists who frankly seem as unhinged as Den Hollander and Cantwell; thankfully none of them have acted out in the same way.

In Constanza’s post today, he urges fellow MRAs to “redouble our efforts” in the wake of Angelucci’s murder.

I would suggest that fans of the site do some serious self-reflection first. Is there a reason their side – and their site — attracts so many “demented” individuals? Perhaps this is not simply bad luck? Perhaps it’s because, to paraphrase a famous comedy routine by Mitchell and Webb, they are the baddies?

H/T — to Twitter’s @TakedownMRAs, who inspired this post.

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Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 months ago

@ stacey

That was so kind of you; thank you!

I’ve been thinking about something you said the other day; about curating performance art. It had never occurred to me that was a field that would have curators (that’s how in tune with the art scene I am) but with hindsight I realised there must be. So I started reading up. Thought this might be the perfect job for you!

https://callforcurators.com/call/curator-of-performing-arts/

I love the Whitney. Not just their exhibitions, but because it’s such a controversy magnet. It seems they can’t show a work, appoint a board member, or accept a donation without it turning out the person involved is a gun runner or something.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 months ago

@Cyborgette

You spouted racist bullshit, Stacey said repeatedly that you are full of bullshit, and now you’re hitting on her and pretending to be her friend?

Yes it is beyond unbelievable.

In real life the sound and sight of one crack of my whip and the snarl of contempt in my voice and he’d scurry off without a word. But with trolls here…

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Stacey
Pay him no mind, he’s just an asshole. He’s angry that you are who you are and that you aren’t submitting to his Islamophobic crackpottery.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 months ago

@Alan

Oh that is so nice of you to think about me that way but I only have a bachelor’s now. I was thinking about going back for an M.F.A. but I need to learn to write better. Even a fine arts or performing arts MFA has some writing.

You are so cool to think of me that way though!

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 months ago

@Naglfar

Pay him no mind, he’s just an asshole. He’s angry that you are who you are and that you aren’t submitting to his Islamophobic crackpottery.

Of course but I wouldn’t be who I am if i didn’t give that response. 🙂

Avn
Avn
2 months ago

– Testing, testing – Check 1, 2, 4

– I, 2…..4

Something is wrong. The 3s seem to be missing.

Avn
Avn
2 months ago

All right, there no need to ban me yet again, because I came back to post just once more, and thereafter, I will be on my merry way…

Fair enough?

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Avn
Didn’t David ban you?

Did you do all that earlier to make yourself harder to ban?

Avn
Avn
2 months ago

– What is god/allah?

– When you eat highly spicy food, your body craves water to relieve the discomfort. When you get physically hurt and experience pain, your body craves some manner with which to end the pain.

– Human body, as we see, always tries to get rid of pain and discomfort.

– Likewise, mental discomfort, is also a suffering that the body tries to get rid of. However, since this type of suffering is not physical, but mental, the pain relief must also be mental.

– Enter god/allah – The belief that there is a god/allah, is a psychological defense mechanism of the human body, which acts like pain relief for mental suffering, to mitigate the psychological suffering of humans.

– This defense mechanism is mistaken for a god/allah.

– In reality, it is the human brain’s response to assuage the mental anguish. It acts like a cushion, a pain killer, for the psychological pain, when humans are feeling sad, anxious, helpless, distressed et al. It provides solace.

– It is an evolutionary safeguard, put in place, to ensure better odds at survival, for the humankind.

– It also acts as a source of hope – when the individual desires something, and realizes that he is helpless, then there is not much that he can do physically.

– This mechanism then acts like false-hope which alleviates his helplessness.

– Without this belief in god/allah, the psychological distress of the individual would increase, as the person would feel demoralized when he is helpless.

– But with this, a kind of placebo is created, which prevents demoralization and mitigates the individual’s psychological pain arising out of helplessness.

– And this is what is god/allah

(Continued)

Avn
Avn
2 months ago

– There is no god. There is no allah. The belief that there is a god/allah is the human body’s self-defense mechanism. A placebo.

– The word islam means submission. And since the human is submitting to nothing but his own defense mechanism–which he himself is reinforcing that he is on the correct path–the human following islam is essentially submitting to his own self, while imagining that a ‘higher power’ is making him do so.

– This submission demands that he refrain from indulging in pleasure and sacrifice for the sake of it.

– Most of the islamic culture is derived NOT from quran, but ‘hadiths and sunnah’

– Hadiths and sunnah = Muhammad’s life and sayings.

– So islam’s followers are in reality, muhammad’s followers – They are muhammadans.

– Mark Twain – That is a simple rule, and easy to remember. When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane; not in all things, but in religious matters.

Dalillama
Dalillama
2 months ago

Fuck off already, you’re not wanted around here. I’ve emailed David.

Avn
Avn
2 months ago

– Mark Twain – That is a simple rule, and easy to remember. When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane; not in all things, but in religious matters.

– Mark Twain, was lauded as the “greatest humorist [the United States] has produced”, and William Faulkner called him “the father of American literature

– Theodore Roosevelt – Christianity was saved in Europe solely because the peoples of Europe fought. If the peoples of Europe in the seventh and eighth centuries, an on up to and including the seventeenth century, had not possessed a military equality with, and gradually a growing superiority over the Mohammedans who invaded Europe, Europe would at this moment be Mohammedan and the Christian religion would be exterminated.

– Historians typically rank roosevelt among the top five american presidents of all time.

– Thomas Jefferson – The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise

– Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd US president, and the principal author of the declaration of independence. Jefferson was one of the most influential founding fathers.

(Continued)

Avn
Avn
2 months ago

– Blaise pascal – Mahomet established a religion by putting his enemies to death; Jesus Christ by commanding his followers to lay down their lives.

– Blaise pascal was a french mathematician, physicist, inventor and writer

– Whites are the greatest enemy of whites.

– White media is betraying whites.

– Stephen Harper – The 22nd Prime Minister of Canada – When people think of Islamic terrorism, they think of Afghanistan, or maybe they think of some place in the Middle East, but the truth is that threat exists all over the world

– Richard Dawkins – The religion of Mohammed is a dangerous system when the teachings and example of the “prophet” are believed and followed

Dalillama
Dalillama
2 months ago

SHUT THE FUCK UP, YOU BLATHERING NINNYHAMMER. Nobody here is willing to try to crack into your invincible ignorance anymore, and nobody gives a shit about anything you have ever said or ever will say. STOP FUCKING TYPING

Avn
Avn
2 months ago

Continued –

– Adolf Hitler – “Had Charles Martel not been victorious,” Hitler told his inner circle, “then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone.

– Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world.

– Documents in the German Federal Archives in Berlin confirm that the SS leadership considered Islam to be “a practical and sympathetic religion for soldiers” because “it promises heaven for those who fall in battle

Avn
Avn
2 months ago

– French philosopher Jacques Ellul –

– In a major encyclopedia, one reads phrases such as: “Islam expanded in the eighth or ninth centuries …”; “This or that country passed into Muslim hands…”

– But care is taken not to say how Islam expanded, how countries “passed into [Muslim] hands.” .. Indeed, it would seem as if events happened by themselves, through a miraculous or amicable operation… Regarding this expansion, little is said about jihad. And yet it all happened through war!

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@AVN
Fuck off. Just be somewhere else.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 months ago

Who was that contemptible troll AVN even talking to anymore anyway?

AVN is gross and contemptible and worthy of complete mockery.

Avn
Avn
2 months ago

– I request the moderator to give me just a few posts more. I assure you, I will not post after this.

– Just let me finish this.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Avn
You’ve been saying that for hours. Just get lost. This is a site for discussion, not for your bullshit diatribes and hate. We don’t want you here. You won’t win any converts to your Islamophobia brigade.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 months ago

Naglfar is right.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

Hopefully that gets rid of him. Good riddance.

Viscaria
Viscaria
2 months ago

I request the moderator to give me just a few posts more. I assure you, I will not post after this.

– Just let me finish this.

I take satisfaction in knowing that if he’d just stopped splitting all his comments into tiny pieces, perhaps he would have been able to get out his last racist screed, but now none of us have to read it.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 months ago

I couldn’t stop the Islamaphobia but a full on Stacey post stopped the “to miss Stacey” “so sweet” crap part of it. Glad creep and his vile words are gone.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Viscaria
I’m imagining him just sitting behind his computer, realizing he can’t post (I’m not sure what people who have been banned see), and screaming into the void.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I guess it’s impressive that he managed to type all that with one hand down his pants.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 months ago

Thank you for all your efforts, David.

Good riddance to AVN. Your rambling, racist, inexplicably fractured manifestos will not be missed, and I hope your path is littered with Legos for the rest of your days.

Chris O
Chris O
2 months ago

@Catalpa: would you agree with that AVN and Skimminghorn, if not the same person, are at least very close friends and teaming up to spam the comments section?

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Chris O
I would doubt that, as they seem to use very different arguments and write very differently. They could be friends, but it seems more likely that they’re just two trolls that happened to stumble here, probably from vanity searching for things about AVfM.
They also never acknowledged each other, which they probably would have done had they been friends. And never backed each other up.

Chris O
Chris O
2 months ago

@Naglfar:

Good point.

Chris O
Chris O
2 months ago

@Naglfar:

Good point.

On a completely unrelated note….that loud clang y’all just heard was my jaw dropping in amazement that this comment thread is now up to 11 full pages. I’d need official confirmation from David on this, but I think 11 pages is a new record for this site.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 months ago

@Chris O – Not even close! I… am hesitant to link it, because it will bring it back from the dead. But search the ‘cassie jaye’ tags, and you’ll find it. 39 pages long! It’s the ‘open letter’ one.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Rhuu
There’s a longer one. The Christmas 2017 open thread is 43 pages. I haven’t read through it all and I wasn’t a commenter here then, but it appears that one was less because of trolls and more because David took a 2 month break after that post so it was the only active thread for a while for commenters.

Makroth
Makroth
2 months ago

Blaise pascal – Mahomet established a religion by putting his enemies to death; Jesus Christ by commanding his followers to lay down their lives.

Ha! HAHA!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!

No. That’s not how it actually happened. You would have to be historically illiterate to an extreme degree to believe that.

https://www.quora.com/Did-Christianity-spread-by-the-sword

https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/14/if-islam-is-a-religion-of-violence-so-is-christianity/

http://www.culturaldiplomacy.org/academy/content/pdf/participant-papers/2010www/Is_Islam_Peaceful_or_Violent_-_Comparing_Islam_&_Christianity_to_Reveal_the_Propaganda_of_Terrorism.pdf

Also, people who are very smart when it comes to one or two subjects are perfectly capable of being dumbasses when it comes to others.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dna-pioneer-james-watson-loses-honorary-titles-over-racist-comments-180971266/

Here’s just one example.

I’m sure i can find many otherwise smart people who believed the Earth was flat. Or still do.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

It used to be quite common for threads to go past 1000 comments years ago when there were a lot more trolls here. These days, David is faster to ban trolls/not let them through in the first place. Plus, I think trolls spend more time on Reddit and Twitter than blogs now.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 months ago

@Chris O

Nah, trolls here don’t tend to change up their schtick this much. Skimmingway strikes me as a self-aggrandizing egotistical edgelord, while AVN is more on the creepy fetishistic fascist conspiracy theorist end of the scale. I’m sure the two of them share some of the same beliefs, but they aren’t very similar.

Avn
Avn
2 months ago

– Test post

– If this post appears, then later on, I will post the solution to all feminist issues such as – equal rights, abortion, racism, homosexuality et al

– And the solution regarding how to raise the birth rate in the western world, so as to ensure the survival of caucasians.

– However, I will post it only if this post appears, and one or more individuals here, express their desire to know the solution.

– If not, then I will simply let it go.

– Cheers.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

If you’re going to keep making new IPs to continue trolling here, can you at least be entertaining instead of doing these tedious rambling mess posts?

Ariblester
2 months ago

Avn wrote on
August 15, 2020 at 1:17 am:

– However, I will post it only if this post appears, and one or more individuals here, express their desire to know the solution.

– If not, then I will simply let it go.

Not fucking interested. Go away. The “Caucasian Race” is not a scientifically valid genetic categorization of humans, so any solution based on it is itself scientifically invalid.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 months ago

I will post the solution to all feminist issues

Most of the solution is for people like you to stop being racist, sexist and Islamaphobic.

You don’t seem to want to do anything but post Islamaphobic racist blather so you don’t have a solution to anything.

Am I still “too sweet” you asshole?

Go away.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 months ago

@AVN: Wouldn’t the banning explicitly tell you that WE DON’T WANT YOU?

We know you don’t have the solution to all problems, because you’re a racist, islamophobic mess.

There is *no great replacement*, you absolute asswipe.

We don’t care about ‘declining white births’.

You know what the solution is to ‘people can’t afford kids’?

A minimum wage that is a liveable wage.
Better support for parents.
Homes (condos, apartments, wahtever) being built that are big enough for families, and affordable.
Medicare for all, so people aren’t going bankrupt because of medical expenses.
Easily accessible birth control, and having birth control de-stigmatised. (I include abortion in that, sincw choosing when to have children typically will mean a better possible outcome.)
UBI.
Funding school systems better. (I say this as an Ontarian, what the ACTUAL HELL, Ford. Fuck you.)

Basically, NOTHING ABOUT IMMIGRANTS, OR THE GRAT REPLACEMENT. YOU. FARTFACE.

… you just think you understand, and you know NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. If your beliefs didn’t cause real harm, i’d almost pity you. But they do, so i tried previously to explain to you your obvious shortcomings, and now i wash my hands of you. I’m going to havw to email David again, and it’s annoying.

You’re annoying.

/end rant

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Rhuu
I already emailed him, and he said it should be resolved now.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 months ago

Thanks, @Naglfar! Sorry for the second email, David, i hadn’t seen that Naglfar Had It Handled.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 months ago

If this post appears, then later on, I will post the solution to all feminist issues such as – equal rights, abortion, racism, homosexuality et al

– And the solution regarding how to raise the birth rate in the western world

I suspect that your solution will share a hell of a lot in common with The Final Solution and I want absolutely nothing to do with it.

Stop evading your bans and fuck right off. And ideally examine your life choices, you racist little prick.

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