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Incel Redditor: “Women were never meant to control their own reproduction”

I’m tearin’ down your brooder house
‘Cause now I’ve got the pill

By David Futrelle

So I’ve been poking around the BlackPillScience subreddit, where the regulars discuss the latest scientific research that proves ugly dudes have it harder than non-ugly dudes in life and love. And they do, to some extent, but then again there are plenty of ugly dudes who have great lives and get laid on a regular basis, “black pill” be damned.

Anyway, actual scientists do research on this shit and these guys discuss it. But let’s just say that the discussions are a little less scientific than the papers under discussion.

Take this little comment-cum-manifesto posted in a topic discussing arranged marriages among current-day hunter-gatherers.

Listen carefully, women were never meant to control their own reproduction. It’s entirely unnatural and has adverse consequences on culture and the foundations of civilization.

But of course birth control is a-OK if men want to use it.

If a man does not wish to impregnate a woman then all he has to do is wear a condom or pull out at the appropriate time (or both). But at all times it should remain his choice, not hers.

What’s not good for the goose is good for the gander.

People in ancient civilizations used to watch the calendar and only had sex when appropriate. This system successfully facilitated humanity’s rise for literally thousands of years. When a woman has control over her own biology it opens up far too many options that adversely affect us all in immeasurable ways.

If you want to reject all medical technology invented since the ancient Egyptians, feel free to go right ahead, dude.

When women control their own reproduction it facilitates promiscuity, hypergamy, feminism, labor market disruptions, housing inflation, and beta male exclusion.

“Beta male exclusion?” Dude, birth control makes it less risky to have heterosexual sex. This benefits everyone who likes to have heterosexual sex, including so-called beta males.

Beta males are not inferior, they are in essence what builds civilizations and enables the privileges that both men and women currently take for granted.

It would be rather difficult to maintain civilization without the work of women. But yes, the majority of men do the majority of the work that men do.

It is only by forcing an equitable distribution of women among men than this thing we call civilization is maintained in the long run.

Well this is just a tiny bit chilling, huh — even though it’s only a smidgen blunter than Jordan Peterson’s “enforced monogamy.” How exactly would one go about “forcing an equitable distribution of women among men?” You can’t treat women like they’re government cheese.

Here’s Loretta Lynn offering a rebuttal on behalf of married women tired of having no control over their reproductive lives. I’ll take the Loretta pill over the black pill any day.

Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.

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Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

But of course birth control is a-OK if men want to use it.

Somehow I bet these men would freak out if they were offered some experimental form of male birth control. Most men seem to think contraception is the woman’s responsibility.

Beta males are not inferior, they are in essence what builds civilizations and enables the privileges that both men and women currently take for granted.

One of the many paradoxes of the manosphere is, if men built civilization, why is it supposedly so anti-male? Wouldn’t that imply that men are really bad at building and maintaining civilization?

How exactly would one go about “forcing an equitable distribution of women among men?”

IIRC our visitor Friendly Neighborhood Incel was saying something about this. He seemed to think we should use social coercion then claimed it wasn’t really coercion. I wonder if he’ll swing by this thread to make more assertions then never respond to people’s responses to him.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
1 year ago

Beta males are not inferior, they are in essence what builds civilizations and enables the privileges that both men and women currently take for granted.

They’re essential workers. Heroes.

(My apologies to the actual essential workers, as well as my gratitude.)

But yes, the majority of men do the majority of the work that men do.

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that men do the work that men do?

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

women were never meant to control their own reproduction. It’s entirely unnatural and has adverse consequences on culture and the foundations of civilization.

If a man does not wish to impregnate a woman then all he has to do is wear a condom

Why is female birth control considered unnatural, but condoms aren’t? Does the guy think we get condoms off of a condom tree?

Yeah, modern-day condoms do precede modern-day birth control pills by a bit, but people have been using less exact forms of birth control for centuries- penis-havers used condoms made of animal intestine, and vagina-havers used an assortment of herbal mixtures.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Kat

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that men do the work that men do?

I would think so, and Iron Maiden would like to remind us that men also do the evil that men do.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=M6JpxDebokM

@Catalpa

people have been using less exact forms of birth control for centuries- penis-havers used condoms made of animal intestine, and vagina-havers used an assortment of herbal mixtures.

In addition, rhythm methods have been around for a long time. And although it’s probably not considered birth control by modern definition, sex workers in Ancient Rome (and possibly elsewhere) used anal sex to avoid pregnancy.

epronovost
epronovost
1 year ago

It’s strange to look at ourselves in 2020, at the very height of human civilisation and development, and say “yeah, civilisation can only work when it was structured when it worked poorly”.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 year ago

There used to be some kind of plant around northern Africa that was so heavily used that it went extinct. It was called silphium and it was frequently prescribed medicinally to “bring on menstruation,” in other words it was an abortificant. Abortion in the ancient world was not a big deal morally speaking, and was a common way to avoid having scads of children in an environment where contraception was difficult.

impudentinfidel
impudentinfidel
1 year ago

The ancient Mediterranean civs also made heavy use of Silphium as a supposedly reliable contraceptive and/or abortifacient, eventually overharvesting it into extinction in the first century.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 year ago

WELL, DUH! No sexual animal can control it’s own reproduction. Some plants are sexual/asexual under certain conditions, some change depending on their life stage, and some are all the time. But as far as I know animals are either sexual or asexual.

@ Naglfar:

? Wouldn’t that imply that men are really bad at building and maintaining civilization?

Trust me… we are really bad

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@PoM

Abortion in the ancient world was not a big deal morally speaking, and was a common way to avoid having scads of children in an environment where contraception was difficult.

Indeed, despite what many religious fundamentalists today would say, the Old Testament does not oppose abortion and prescribes it for a number of reasons, including suspected infidelity.

@Weird Eddie

No sexual animal can control it’s own reproduction.

What about the Lake Duck? The males have corkscrew penises and the females have corkscrew vaginas but they can flip the shape to prevent penetration. That sounds like controlling one’s own reproduction. And kangaroos and a few other animals can freeze the development of a fetus temporarily then resume later, such as in times of scarcity.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
1 year ago

Female porcupines must cooperate with mating, for obvious reasons. They cannot be raped by the male and absolutely control when reproduction occurs.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

I think that Weird Eddie was making a joke about no animals being able to control the type of their reproduction (i.e. sexual reproduction v.s. asexual reproduction via budding and whatnot.)

There are a wide variety of animals that have a high level of control over the actual reproductive process. In fact, I believe that humans are rare among mammals in that we do not have the inherent ability to reabsorb/abort the fetus at will.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Catalpa
Sorry, I misinterpreted him as suggesting animals can’t control gestation and fertilization.

I recall a woman I knew a few years ago who was really into goddess worship and new age spiritual stuff who claimed she could feel her eggs moving and control her ovulation with meditation, but I would guess that was made up. Reminds me a bit of that troll SRLO and his (deeply inaccurate) thoughts on menstruation.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

Lady whale sharks hold on to sperm and then fertilise eggs as and when seems to be convenient for them. So they can carry multiple foetuses all at various stages of development.

https://www.int-res.com/articles/esr2010/12/n012p117.pdf

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
1 year ago

I just finished reading a very interesting book called “Contraception and Abortion from the Ancient World to the Renaissance” (John Riddle is the author) which details the many actually quite effective methods people used to control reproduction. Incels/MRAs prove once again that their knowledge of history is utter garbage.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
1 year ago

I should note that the book actually does a half-decent job not focusing solely on Western Europe.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)

Riddle’s good. Really good writer, and an amazing teacher. His “History of the Middle Ages” should be required reading.

Lunetta
Lunetta
1 year ago

The ancients DID use contraception and it was controlled by the women because they were the ones using it. I mean it’s in the historical records that an entire plant species went extinct from overharvesting due to it’s use solely as a contraceptive

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
1 year ago

I don’t want to have a chance of getting a woman pregnant every single time I bang her.

So it’s really about you, not the future of civilization.

Whereas all you ever think about is the future of civilization.

Listen carefully, women were never meant to control their own reproduction.

Listen carefully, women are the only ones who should control female reproduction. When that happens, women are healthier and happier and so are their children. And that’s what civilization is based on: healthy, happy women and their healthy, happy children.

Full Metal Ox
1 year ago

@David Futrelle:

Thank you for that musical reminder of a time when country music (by, for example, actual coal miners’ daughters) was quite capable of railing against the power structure.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 year ago

@Weird Eddie : I am not sure if your post was meant as satire, but of course that most living being actually control their reproduction to various extent. Typically female fertility is dependant on them having enough food for example. Not to mention time of the year, with humans being the exception as one of few species that don’t have a dedicated timing for babies.

It’s similar to say that no animal can control their breathing. Of course they can and they do.

Human require pills and whatnot mostly because thoses controls are not conscious, so a woman cannot consciously decide that she don’t want babies without condoms or whatnot. But not having conscious control isn’t the same as not having control at all, doubly so when talking of animal who are not all conscious, and the one who are don’t necessarily rely on that as much as humans.

ObSidJag
ObSidJag
1 year ago

@Naglfar:

And kangaroos and a few other animals can freeze the development of a fetus temporarily then resume later, such as in times of scarcity.

Horses and, I believe, rats can actually reabsorb the fetus(es) under certain circumstances, e.g. the mother is under extreme stress or lacks adequate nutrition (which would certainly be stress inducing).

Sorry if someone already mentioned this: I haven’t read through all the comments.

@Bookworm in hijab: good to see you posting (I always liked the pic that accompanies your nym), and thanks for the book recommendation. I know what my next inter-library request will be.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 year ago

@ObSidJag

Rabbits can do that, too, though sometimes they’ll just deliver some deceased kits with a subsequent litter.

Steph
Steph
1 year ago

I am almost too scared to ask but I genuinely wonder what “redistributing women” would look like…

And how a man like this would react if the woman “distributed” to him was not sufficiently attractive (in his opinion.)

They’re awful and show everyday why nobody wants them.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

And how a man like this would react if the woman “distributed” to him was not sufficiently attractive (in his opinion.)

I am 99% sure that he would take out his anger and frustration on the woman he was “distributed”.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Catalpa
It also seems fairly likely he’d take it out on other women in addition, like Elliot Rodger’s original plan to attack a sorority house.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 year ago

@ Ohlmann:

Point(s) taken, and I stand corrected. I was really only considering the other side, I.e. no sexual animal can reproduce without the other… which is also untrue now. I’ll just retire gracefully from this argument 😉

vaiyt
vaiyt
1 year ago

I see the word “unnatural” alongside a moral dictate and my eyeballs instantly roll so hard they fly out of my skull and I have to retrieve them.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I am almost too scared to ask but I genuinely wonder what “redistributing women” would look like…

There was an infamous early member of the online incel community called Government Gets Girlfriends. He posted here for a little while several years ago, but I think he got banned. He had a plan for this.

A government program would pay poor and/or unemployed women to be the girlfriends of incels. Needless to say, he did not understand why there’s an element of coercion to such a plan.

This guy (who still has a blog but under a different name that I’m forgetting at the moment) admitted at one point that he blackmailed a young women into having sex with him. So, yeah. Charming fellow.

Sadly, incels have gotten so much more horrible in recent years that GGG seems almost moderate. I’m sure most of these guys who are pro distribution of women wouldn’t allow it to be an ostensibly voluntary program.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)

I just hope he no longer obsessively googles himself and shows up in the comments. That were sad, in a way – his very first post was always a variant of “Does this site allow free speech?” Nothing good ever comes from that.

Oddly I bumped into an old thread on another site where he were putting forth his bullshit (and attempting to defend demanding sex from his mother) yesterday. Hadn’t thought of him in years.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Threp

and attempting to defend demanding sex from his mother

Nothing good comes of that either. Do I want to know what his defense was?

Ariblester
1 year ago

attempting to defend demanding sex from his mother

What the actual.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)

@Naglfar

You really don’t. 🙂

He used the lobsterboi’s favorite cry of “CONTEXT!!!!!” on this particular thread – without explaining in which part of the multiverse there’s any acceptable context for a human being demanding sex from their mother.

Hell, even Oedipus didn’t do that.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
1 year ago

It’s entirely unnatural and has adverse consequences on culture and the foundations of civilization.

Gotta admire a doofus who complains about a thing being unnatural and adds how bad it is for culture and civilization.

People in ancient civilizations used to watch the calendar and only had sex when appropriate.

I assume that women had absolutely nothing to do with this and men were in possession of all the calendars so that women couldn’t keep track of what was what? Probably a good idea to mandate that all women wear visors or something to keep them from seeing what phase the moon is at, and you should always shout random numbers at a woman if you suspect she’s counting the days from her last period or something.

All this talk about ancient contraception reminds me of an online discussion where a dude said that it always irks him to read fantasy novels (set in historical environs) where a man and a woman have sex and there’s no mention of how the woman is preventing pregnancy. I suppose we’re reading different kinds of books because I don’t really remember reading a lot of sex scenes where the goings-on are described in such detail that you know beyond doubt that pregnancy is a possible result. Not to mention that the man might also have a vested interest in preventing a pregnancy, or that the woman might have taken care of the matter somehow without his knowledge, and whether it should be mentioned perhaps depends on who’s point-of-view we’re getting it from.

Lainy
Lainy
1 year ago

I wish there was a way to band incels from the internet.

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)

I wish there was a way to band incels from the internet.

There is.

Ban anonymity and incels, trolls, channers, and other assorted pests of opportunity go the way of the passenger pigeon.

The downside is too big though. Not that I’m biased in any way by my preference to remain anonymous … 😛

Or indeed by the need for many people to have an online social outlet that isn’t connected to RL – as in many people here, who have a certain need for obscurity.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Threp
That might get rid of some, but I see quite a few on Twitter that do use their real names and photos as avatars, so others might not be deterred.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
1 year ago

@ Masse_Mysteria:

All this talk about ancient contraception reminds me of an online discussion where a dude said that it always irks him to read fantasy novels (set in historical environs) where a man and a woman have sex and there’s no mention of how the woman is preventing pregnancy.

I once wrote a fic with a historical setting and decided I couldn’t write an outdoor sex scene until I figured out what the characters were using to repel mosquitoes, so I kind of sympathize with that reader.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 year ago

@Masse_Mysteria

I rather liked how this was handled in the Liavek stories. There was an herbal contraceptive known as Worrynot, which could be made as a tea or you could just chew the leaves if needed. I wonder if this was a fantasy version of silphium?

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)

I once wrote a fic with a historical setting and decided I couldn’t write an outdoor sex scene until I figured out what the characters were using to repel mosquitoes, so I kind of sympathize with that reader.

Last bit I wrote on my newest – it’s post apoc – the MC had just started her period. 😛 That took a fair amount of thought and research.

LollyPop
LollyPop
1 year ago

I mean, you can’t expect consistency, but I thought the incel mantra was that only a small proportion of all the men that have ever lived have got to pass on their genes? Iron proof, in their eyes, of women’s terrible chadlust – which was only remedied for a brief period in the 1950s when every single man got a wife. Wouldn’t that suggest in their alternative universe that women have always called the reproductive shots through cuckcolding and alpha chasing and the like?

I just want them to have a coherent narrative to their belief structure, dammit!

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@LollyPop

Iron proof, in their eyes, of women’s terrible chadlust – which was only remedied for a brief period in the 1950s when every single man got a wife. Wouldn’t that suggest in their alternative universe that women have always called the reproductive shots through cuckcolding and alpha chasing and the like?

I’m not sure exactly what they believe these days, as it changes whenever the wind blows, but I thought their claim was that “Western civilization” has historically been like the 1950s, rather than that being an aberration. Anyway, regardless they are inconsistent.

O/T: In case anyone is still interested, this is an interesting piece about JK Rowling and her work in light of recent events.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 year ago

Sex scenes in R-rated action films don’t bother to indicate whether there’s any sort of contraception involved – they just have sex. Then again, R-rated action films tend to be unrealistic to the point where they could be considered a sub-genre of “fantasy” anyway. 😜

I don’t read much fantasy, and so far none with any sex scenes, but I would imagine that charms and cantrips take care of that, mostly.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

Piers Anthony never explained contraception in Xanth as far as I can recall, but that’s nowhere near the worst problem with his depictions of sex.

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 year ago

@Moon Custafer

I once wrote a fic with a historical setting and decided I couldn’t write an outdoor sex scene until I figured out what the characters were using to repel mosquitoes, so I kind of sympathize with that reader.

History the usual answer is either a nice smoky fire, being in an area with few mosquitoes, or nothing, you just count it as one of the hazards of outdoor sex, like grass burns and thistles.

@Snowberry

I once wrote a fic with a historical setting and decided I couldn’t write an outdoor sex scene until I figured out what the characters were using to repel mosquitoes, so I kind of sympathize with that reader.

Pretty much this; in any setting where magical effects are commonplace, there will be reliable contraception. Quite a lot of fantasy settings in fact specify this, but usually when dealing with a midwife or other medical professional/herbalist/hedge witch/etc. than at the point of any implied or described sex; such people are usually mentioned to have access to contraceptives and/or abortifascients. Indeed, the same applies historically. Silphium was quite a good one, but there are other means that have been used in various places and times. Not as convenient or efficacious as the Pill, but definitely extant.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 year ago

@Naglfar

Not just depictions. He’s literally a pedophile – he has a history of sexually harassing and pursuing teenage girls. I know at least one person who was harassed by him as a minor.

(Sorry to jump in with this, I just feel it’s important to mention because the sick fuck is still somehow a popular author.)

Threp (formerly Shadowplay)

He’s literally a pedophile …

That were fairly obvious by the third or fourth Xanth book. And while I adore puns (fortunately, I’ve still got the Myth Inc books for that particular fix!), it creeped me out enough to drop the series and author right then and there.

Do still think his “Of Man and Manta” series is one of the greatest new wave sci-fi written though. I miss re-reading that.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 year ago

(Quoting Dalillama, responding mainly to Masse Mysteria)

In any setting where magical effects are commonplace, there will be reliable contraception. Quite a lot of fantasy settings in fact specify this, but usually when dealing with a midwife or other medical professional/herbalist/hedge witch/etc. than at the point of any implied or described sex; such people are usually mentioned to have access to contraceptives and/or abortifascients.

I recall this trope briefly came up in the Finnish youth fantasy series Vuorileijonan Varjo (by Taru and Tarmo Väyrynen), which has only a few magic effects in a “bronze age Mediterranean” type setting. The herbalist was a young guy supplying contraceptives to his own girlfriend.

Indeed, the same applies historically. Silphium was quite a good one, but there are other means that have been used in various places and times. Not as convenient or efficacious as the Pill, but definitely extant.

Vinegar in a vaginal sponge is sometimes mentioned in Finnish historical novels by Kaari Utrio (a well known historian and feminist, as well as bestselling novelist).

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
1 year ago

@Masse_Mysteria

All this talk about ancient contraception reminds me of an online discussion where a dude said that it always irks him to read fantasy novels (set in historical environs) where a man and a woman have sex and there’s no mention of how the woman is preventing pregnancy.

The book The Difference Engine by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling, which is set in an alternate 1855 where steam-powered computers existed, actually had a scene involving a man getting cleaned-up sheep guts to use as a condom.

@ObSidJag, Victorious Parasol:
Rabbits being able to do that was actually a (minor) plot point in Watership Down.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Cyborgette

He’s literally a pedophile – he has a history of sexually harassing and pursuing teenage girls. I know at least one person who was harassed by him as a minor.

Yes, I recall discussing him and his pedophilia in another thread. He also defended and published a short story by a convicted child molester. I am definitely not trying to defend him.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 year ago

@Naglfar

I didn’t think you were trying to defend him! Just that you might not know about his history of abusive behavior. I’d forgotten about the prior conversation, sorry about that!