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A Voice for Men tries to distance itself from Roy Den Hollander’s violence … by citing an article they published by him threatening violence

Paul Elam and Roy Den Hollander: Two-headed monster?

By David Futrelle

A Voice for Men is trying its best to distance itself from Roy Den Hollander, the rabidly antifeminist lawyer thought to have gunned down the son and the husband of a federal judge and who seems to be linked to the murder of a rival Men’s Rights attorney in California.

But they’re going about it in a mighty strange way — by citing the violent portion of an article that Den Hollander published in AVFM in 2010.

In a post on AVFM yesterday, Robert Brockway complained that the media were making too much of that one article — and its literal call to arms.

Den Hollander wrote one article for A Voice for Men (AVfM), which was published on October 24, 2010 – nearly ten years ago. A quote from this one article has been widely circulated in the media as it attempts to link AVfM to violence. The mainstream media focuses on the mention of firearms. 

Boy, it’s puzzling that the media would focus on the mention of firearms in a piece written by someone who gunned down three men, killing two of them.

Here’s the quote in question from Den Hollander:

The future prospect of the Men’s Movement raising enough money to exercise some influence in America is unlikely. But there is one remaining source of power in which men still have a near monopoly—firearms. At some point, the men in this country will take the Declaration of Independence literally.

Brockway continues his attempted whitewashing by pointing out that AVFM head boy Paul Elam later turned down another piece by Hollander allegedly based upon the premise that “the best way to preserve men’s rights is with a gun” — as if Elam’s rejection of this second post somehow erases that fact that they published the first one. (And, though Brockway never mentions it, that Elam also praised Den Hollander effusively in a post from 2011.)

The fact is that Den Hollander wasn’t the only one advocating violence in the pages of A Voice for Men. Indeed, the site once hosted, for several years, a manifesto by Men’s Rights activist Tom Ball, who committed suicide by lighting himself on fire outside a courthouse in hopes that his act would inspire other men to begin firebombing courthouses and police stations in protest of alleged anti-male bias in family courts. He wrote:

So boys, we need to start burning down police stations and courthouses. …

You need to flatten them, like Wile E. Coyote. They need to be taught never to replace the rule of law. BURN-THEM-OUT!

There will be some casualties in this war. Some killed, some wounded, some captured. Some of them will be theirs. Some of the casualties will be ours.

AVFM did remove a small portion of Ball’s manifesto in which he offered specific tips on how to make effective molotov cocktails.

Despite hosting this manifesto in AVFM’s “activism” section Elam insisted that he and his fellow MRAs weren’t actually advocating violence themselves, just “predicting” it. As Elam explained it,

Thomas Ball represents a tragic, dysfunctional reaction to chronic, systemic abuse. There are many possible reactions. Some even worse than his. And while we cannot, must not, condone violence, we had better learn to expect it as long as an ideological war against men is allowed to make a battlefield in our justice system and within the heart of our own families.

AVFM took the manifesto down shortly after the Boston Marathon Bombing in 2013.

For another example of Elam “predicting” violence, see here.

Meanwhile, in addition to “predicting” violence, Elam has won himself something of a reputation for publishing assorted fantasies of violence over the years. Consider the infamous article in which he suggested “satrically” that Domestic Violence Awareness month be replaced with “Bash a Violent Bitch” month, celebrating those men who responded to domestic violence directed at them by female partners by beating the shit out of said partners.

I’d like to make it the objective for the remainder of this month, and all the Octobers that follow, for men who are being attacked and physically abused by women – to beat the living shit out of them. I don’t mean subdue them, or deliver an open handed pop on the face to get them to settle down. I mean literally to grab them by the hair and smack their face against the wall till the smugness of beating on someone because you know they won’t fight back drains from their nose with a few million red corpuscles.

And then make them clean up the mess … .

He cautioned men from taking his advice literally — not because he felt it was wrong to beat the shit out of “violent bitches” but because it

isn’t worth the time behind bars or the abuse of anger management training that men must endure if they are uppity enough to defend themselves from female attackers.

For more on this, and on Elam’s violent rhetoric more broadly, see here.

In short, Paul Elam is the world’s least convincing pacifist. He can’t disassociate himself from Den Hollander’s fantasies of violence any more than he can disassociate himself from his own. I can only hope that, unlike Den Hollander, Elam doesn’t attempt to turn his violent fantasies into reality.

Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.

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Ohlmann
Ohlmann
2 months ago

I don’t know what amuse me the most, between the idea that M&B think we don’t have a job, or the fact I am much more active at work than when I do other activities like sleeping or eating. Most jobs nowaday actually let you pauses after all.

@Catalpa : honestly, I believe there’s little value in distinguishing the shade of far-right extremism between nazism, fascism, pseudo-libertanism, MRAism, and the other.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 months ago

I believe there’s little value in distinguishing the shade of far-right extremism between nazism, fascism, pseudo-libertanism, MRAism, and the other.

You’re right, but since I was arguing with Motte, I knew he’d be smarmy if I just went “Nazis and libertarians and MRAs are close enough to bring synonymous nowadays, so it’s absolutely no surprise that Cantwell is all three”, so I decided to back up my point with some evidence. Which of course lead to the troll ignoring my point, because if he can’t nitpick or condescend about something, he’ll just pretend it doesn’t exist, like he did for PoM refuting his attraction “study” when he went by Man’s Voice.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Ohlmann

I believe there’s little value in distinguishing the shade of far-right extremism between nazism, fascism, pseudo-libertanism, MRAism, and the other.

I think it can be useful because each one has slightly different methods and as a result needs slightly different tactics to combat it. For example, incels are different than MGTOWs even though they have some similar beliefs.

Viscaria
Viscaria
2 months ago

I say we keep him so long as he can provide three (3) examples of identically hot man-woman pairs. Extra points if actuarial tables are somehow involved.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Viscaria
I’d also like to see something for how to calculate one’s looksmatch score. I recall Heartiste, back when he was known as Roissy, used to have quizzes on this but they’re now gone (though Cliff Pervocracy’s takedowns are still up and are much more entertaining). Since MV/M&B was a Heartiste fan, he might have similar criteria.

Hambeast
Hambeast
2 months ago

C.A. Collins said

Hey, I just got off work, and y’all already knocked all the candy out of the new pinata.
Not fair!

I know, right? All that’s left are some root beer barrels and circus peanuts.

vaiyt
vaiyt
2 months ago

Right-libertarianism, ancapism and other similar ideologies/astroturfed hoax con jobs are all about dismantling state power to replace it with private power.

They end up being pretty okay with authoritarian dictatorship and even monarchism in the end since it’s one guy owning everything.

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
2 months ago

@Ariblester, Catalpa, Naglfar

Wowwie wow, that was a meltdown! Dude must have snorted too many seagulls with his misogyny.

Although I think the responders were a little bit harsh about his misconception of Olive Garden as fine dining. That comes from having a poor and culturally uneducated/unobservant background (as does his allowing himself to be underpaid as an engineer and think it’s high), and I don’t think making fun of those aspects of his statements was the right way to go. With the bottom 80% of people in America owning only 7% of the total wealth among them and 8 people (6 of them Americans) owning half the wealth of the human race, there are many people to whom Olive Garden is fine dining and 56k for an engineering position is a goldmine not to be given up.

I’m glad that more recent trolls have been objected to with much more focus on the misogyny.

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
2 months ago

@Naglfar

I’d also like to see something for how to calculate one’s looksmatch score. I recall Heartiste, back when he was known as Roissy, used to have quizzes on this but they’re now gone

Ooo! I took one of those before! I scored “human garbage”! <3 It's because I was educated, it tanked my score to nothing, and then because I'm also fat and muscular, it just plummeted, well, into the trash. A great shock to my confidence, let me tell you. I went straight out to get my Ph.D., there's nothing else to do when you're human garbage.

Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@Big Titty Demon
I took it myself today out of curiosity (had to find it in the Internet Archive). I’m a greater beta apparently. I seem to have mostly lost points for having body hair, small tits, cursing too much, and not being cordial enough if a strange man approached me in a bar. I’m pretty sure Roissy/Heartiste would disqualify me anyway because I have a dick. And I disqualify Roissy/Heartiste and anyone who reads him because he (and by extension his fans) are misogynistic assholes. I prefer women anyway.

Lainy
Lainy
2 months ago

Was this guy the looksmatch dude? No wonder he couldn’t tell what bored flirting was. Dude really is dull

K.
K.
2 months ago
Naglfar
Naglfar
2 months ago

@K.
And the MRA response is in:

Aaron
Aaron
2 months ago

@Ariblester:

(Not MRAL, some other one.)

Holy crap, that is an epic thread. And that guy is something.

rzs
rzs
1 month ago

I can’t stop laughing at, “I’ll have you know, I’m 329 years old”!