By David Futrelle
Today’s insight into human sexuality comes from an anonymous MGTOW Redditor explaining why, in his opinion, women don’t deserve any help with that whole orgasm thing:
Ladies, I feel very confident in stating that this guy is SINGLE. Line forms to the right.
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This line of thinking is always going to turn out to be tightly wedded to homophobia, because it doesn’t have a choice. If you think the female orgasm is useless, what kind of an opinion are going to have about the orgasm of a gay man? The orgasm of a gay man doesn’t have any biological purpose either, if you happen to think ‘biological usefulness’ equals ‘kids’ — and people never argue in this vein unless they do think biological usefulness equals kids. (One does, however, come away with a understanding of why these guys think being able to abstain from masturbation amounts to a superpower: they live in a world in which the superior man is the one who refrains from biologically useless acts. Oh well. At least it’s an ethos. A super boring ethos, but an ethos.)
I am still confused as to why they think “making oneself dateable” is something that only applies to men? Have they never heard of single women / women who complain about not finding a man who wants to date them?
And why do they care about dating if they’re MGTOW? Begone already!
I’ll never understand the obsessive, burning rage these guys have at the very idea that someone, somewhere, might find sex enjoyable.
I’m not going to cover the practical purposes and effects of female orgasm again because we’ve already discussed them multiple times, but suffice to say that even if there was no purpose, things don’t have to serve an evolutionary purpose to be good. For example, I love listening to music, an act which probably doesn’t serve an evolutionary purpose, but it still is an enjoyable thing worth doing.
I can think of many more selfish and pointless things in the world. Like the whole manosphere circlejerk.
I often wonder what parallel universe MGTOWs live in, but it sounds like a good place to be.
@bekabot
Even though it doesn’t produce kids there does seem to be some level of biological usefulness to masturbation, as it boost the immune system and can reduce stress.
@impudentinfidel
I think it’s that they don’t have good sex (probably because they aren’t good at it and don’t care about their partners), so they are jealous that anyone else does like sex. It reminds me a bit about an episode a few weeks ago when some TERFs found out that some people enjoy anal sex, so they all jumped in to talk about how awful it is and how they are disgusted it exists (note the homophobia inherent in that sentiment as well). In other words, they got rather butthurt (pun intended) about other people’s sex lives.
Funny, I kind of think that incels are selfish and pointless as well!!
@Steph:
More to the point, what are the odds this guy bitches whenever he sees an “unfuckable” woman on the street? Unless he’s one of the variety who literally can’t see them.
As he clearly doesn’t have a sense of humor, meanwhile, his quest for a woman who can make him laugh seems doomed to failure.
@Rabid Rabbit
I’ll bet that he even blames his lack of humor on women, he’ll just say women aren’t funny.
Lack of a sense of humor seems common on the right, probably why there are very few right wing comedians who are actually funny, or why they keep telling the same joke over and over again.
The female orgasm has plenty of biological purpose. Reproductively, It opens up the cervix, and releases more lubrication, which gives the semen an easier path to the egg. Psychologically, it releases calming endorphins and brain chemicals that make one feel “in love” and bonded to their partner, even if that partner isn’t a good one. It’s ten kinds of sad and telling that this human doesn’t know even a whisper of this information.
I love how it hasn’t even occurred to him that sometimes when people date, they actually like each other and enjoy having conversations with another.
If the conversation is horrible and boring on every date you’ve either been in, either you’re a terrible conversationalist, or you’re not doing a very job at choosing who to date. In other words, the problem is probably you.
@Sarah
And I get the feeling that anyone who tried to tell them would be dismissed instantly, so they’ll never learn.
@WWTH
Well, they do seem pretty bad at finding the common denominator.
I think this is a consequence of the zero-sum world view: they think everything is to take advantage of someone else, so they can’t imagine a conversation (or, for that matter, sex) that both participants enjoy.
Everyone get your tiny violins out. Roosh has been booted from YouTube
https://twitter.com/nathanTbernard/status/1282834106515103745?s=20
What’s especially ironic is that this bitter nebbish is, like, three synapse firings away from actually figuring out that YES, A GRIMLY TRANSACTIONAL APPROACH TO DATING AND SEX IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND NO FUN. Anybody who regards sex as their rightful “payment” for doing a bunch of stuff they don’t want to do and don’t enjoy doing is, surprise, not going to find the sex very enjoyable either.
And yes, this is a big part of why the transactional model of man-pays-and-woman-puts-out gender norms in dating is so toxic for everyone involved.
But he can’t quite manage to achieve that awareness, so he doubles down on the transactional approach by sulking that women are (supposedly) getting more out of the transaction than he is.
I actually would enjoy buying a man dinner, making him laugh, and then going home to have some nice sex together, but then, I lean toward domme. And I certainly wouldn’t be doing it with the likes of this guy (I may be an ugly old pervert but I still have standards; they’re just not visual).
@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
If it makes him feel any better, YouTube isn’t in the Bible so God probably doesn’t approve of him using it anyway.
Oh hell no.
If the guy doesn’t like the traditional version of dating, then he can just… Not do that?
I mean, I do have some level of sympathy for a situation like this; it does suck to be part of a system that has unfair expectations pressing in on you from all directions, and when it comes to systemic problems it is almost never as easy as “well just say no and refuse to participate in society”.
However, in this case, I’m pretty sure the majority of women are fine with going dutch on dates, and dating is not the cakewalk for women that this dude thinks it is. And even if it was, yelling at women for wanting to have their sexual encounters be pleasurable isn’t going to fix anything, and just reveals the main motives that these guys always seem to have. They don’t want a more fair system, where women and men act like partners who actually enjoy spending time with each other. They want a “return” to an old mythical system where the man pays for dinner and in exchange gets to use the woman’s body to gratify himself however he likes.
It is telling how he assumes that there’s a system, where if he does everything right, he finally gets sex. It goes beyond the “friendzone” view of women where you put enough coins in and eventually you get sex: he sees women as a complicated video game, and thinks it’s unfair that the game is so complicated because you have to make the moves so precisely, and it never strikes him that it’s not that he’s missing the cheat codes, it’s not that he’s not quite as good a player as the next guy, it’s that it’s not a frigging game with a guaranteed “You get laid!” final screen if you just get through the levels properly.
I’m sure that he’s a firm believer in the proposition that male brains are inherently superior to female ones, but it always amazes me how people who believe that lack the cognitive ability to imagine that human interactions might not be reducible to a manual. Though now that I think of it, the fact they’re called manuals suddenly seems very appropriate.
@WWTH:
I love how it hasn’t even occurred to him that whoever he dates might also be pretending to give a shit about his pointless nonsense.
Uh, i lost tracks here. Who were the ones whose say that women do not orgasm ? Were they incels ? I fear i blend them all a bit in the end…
> weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
Fine ! Even if i am not sure he still had that many viewers. As David said, with his turn to god volteface, his audience was backing away at double time.
@WWTH
While they’re at it, can they ban Graham Linehan too? Ever since Twitter gave him the boot he’s been posting long unhinged diatribes and conversations multiple times a week.
@Catalpa
This is the problem, they want to solve problems caused by patriarchy with more patriarchy. I’m reminded of the adage “when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail,” as all they have is patriarchy and it’s the only lens through which they can see the world.
@Rabid Rabbit
This sort of view seems to be how we end up with pickup artists. They promise to teach men the cheat codes, but then the men end up resentful incels when the supposed “game” advice doesn’t work.
@occasional reader
I think it was incels, though it seems the manosphere as a whole is split on whether female orgasms exist but are “selfish and pointless”, or whether they don’t exist to begin with.
@WWTH:
Wow, youtube finally wiped.
Well, it’s too bad for all the women out there that the only way they can get an orgasm is if a man gives them one.
@Yutolia
I’m sure that if he doesn’t get rapt attention, he’ll think he’s been slighted somehow or that the date in question was too dumb for him, or both.
Not even just on dates. In general, women are socialized to put up with men to avoid male rage. In social and work spaces and in the media, men -especially the white cishet ones- hold court and expect an audience. And often get that audience. Women can scarcely go a day without receiving an unsolicited man opinion! And this guy’s mad that women usually talk on a date?
@WWTH
I think this is why a lot of men claim they’re being “silenced” when they get banned from some site or when people walk out of somewhere they are speaking. They seem to think freedom of speech means they’re also entitled to a captive audience.
The clarion call of oppressed men everywhere is “why won’t you debate me!?”
For some reason they really don’t like the answer “It’d be like sandblasting a spiderweb” either.
Does anyone here have any links to non-right-wing coverage of Jessica Doty Whitaker’s murder? I need to debunk some right-wing jackhole’s claim that Floyd protesters shot her in cold blood, but I can’t find any legitimate news coverage with Google — just Reddit and other disreputable sites and various right wing tabloids. No links to mainstream news organizations like CNN, AP, Reuters, NBC, etc. turn up. And Google, strangely, refuses to return any search results at all for the name at either Snopes or Politifact with site-scoped searches.
Is this a complete invention by the right wing, then, or is someone suppressing non-right-wing perspectives on the event from being published?
Sooner would be better, that jackhole is waiting for a reply … and meanwhile people are reading their shit and likely believing it.
Dude, sorry about masturbating, because apparently any sort of female orgasm oppresses men whether or not it affects them in any way. Also, I don’t think it’s occured to this guy that most straight men enjoy pleasuring women, or at least enjoy thinking that they are.
Just googled myself and I can confirm that. It’s only scumbag media that shows up. Personally, that means I question whether this person ever existed.
Bit O/T; but this is pretty cool.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/15/edward-colston-statue-replaced-by-sculpture-of-black-lives-matter-protester
Admitely, it’s super cool.
I have mixed feeling about removing, say, statues of Louis XIV* in France to replace them by anything else, but once a statue have been toppled down, that kind of project is cool.
* AKA a mostly negative figure in history, but not one whose legacy is entirely and only built on racism and exploitation, only partially.
“How dare other people besides me have needs and wants. That’s so selfish.”
CBS has a report here:
https://cbs4indy.com/news/impd-releases-additional-footage-in-jessica-doty-whitaker-shooting-case/
And using Fishy Goat’s link, I find this about the shooting on that news site:
https://cbs4indy.com/news/crime/indy-mother-murdered-along-downtown-canal-marking-2nd-homicide-along-the-canal-in-1-week/
Not sure if this helps you any or not, Surplus. I should note that there seems to be nothing about this murder in the Indianapolis Star, though that could be down to me not using the right search terms too. Or the dates when this happened being just a hair too far in the past for a free search to turn up.
ETA: I did find a reference there in the state paper, but it was just a small blurb mentioning it alongside a few other incidents that night. Nothing more.
In case anyone was curious about that.
In all fairness, let’s assume that the Poor Man doesn’t quite understand the difference between being kind and considerate in bed (as in, taking turns, or learning to prevent premature ejaculation so she’ll have enough time too) and “making” a woman come.
From sexologist Eleanor Hamilton’s 1978 book “Sex, with Love”:
“Myth: A man has to ‘make’ a girl come. It’s the man’s responsibility to ‘bring’ the woman. The truth is that unless a woman can ‘bring’ herself, she has a poor chance of ‘coming’ with any man. Orgasm is something that each partner is responsible for and something they share together, as they would a wonderful dance requiring skill from both. No one would expect a dancer, for example, to create a fine ballet with a partner who had never practiced walking, let alone dancing. A man can be a willing and patient teacher, and he can learn how a woman likes to be made love to, but he cannot ‘make’ her ‘come.’ She has to do that for herself.”
And it’s REALLY time for parents and teachers to step up and teach, one way or another, that once boys AND girls start going to school, their job is no longer to have mindless fun, it’s to become good citizens who actually take pride in giving more than they take. What’s more, no one is entitled to happiness. The Declaration of Independence says we’re only entitled to pursue it. Presumably not at the expense of others’ happiness.
I.e., maybe virgin teen boys wouldn’t be so miserable if they could be taught to take pride in long-term goals more than anything else, even if they swear they never will marry. Plus, there really are a ton of reasons today for young women to say “no” to one-night stands across the board – COVID, for starters. Or maybe they don’t want the details of last night blabbed all over Facebook. Or…
Finally – if this is overkill, forgive me:
I’m sure plenty of boys have been forced to listen to long lists of what it’s not legal to do, and silently, they were steaming and wanting to ask “well, what legal rights DO boys have, whether girls approve or not?”
I can think of seven, at least. (Let me know, in this thread, if you’d like the whole list.)
1. Every boy and man has the right not to date a girl or a woman more than once – or even once – if she doesn’t meet his “needs.” What is often not civilized is letting people know in detail what his “needs” are, since chances are many women AND men will think he’s a jerk for having them. In other words, if you’re a man and your rule is that you don’t date anyone who doesn’t look like a fashion model or anyone who won’t sleep with you on the first date – hell, BEFORE the first date – that is your right, but keep it to yourself. I.e., don’t put it in so many words. After all, if all men had those standards, women would figure out pretty quickly what was going on without being told. How they might react is another matter.
2. A man has the right to expect to take turns paying for dates and to refuse to date women who won’t do this. Since many women are not used to this idea for one reason or another, it’s often best to go on a modest date first (or two paid dates) and then go on FREE dates until she either offers to pay the next dinner date or asks what’s going on. If she’s been on two or three free dates with you, chances are she won’t dump you when you explain.
3. A man has the right to pursue a sex life without any intentions of getting married, so long as he’s honest and polite about it. If we can understand why drivers get fined for speeding, we can understand why harassment is wrong.
pretend to give a shit about her pointless nonsense
I love how it hasn’t even occurred to him that sometimes when people date, they actually like each other and enjoy having conversations with another.
One of the really, really good signs early on in my relationship with the man who has been my husband for 25 years was that we couldn’t decide which we wanted to do more, fuck each other or talk to each other.
To expand on my second post:
While it’s true that American parents are pretty wimpy when it comes to saying no in general (really, how hard is it to say, instead, “where is YOUR money”), that doesn’t change the following facts for children and teens:
1. If you want to spend less time doing schoolwork OR housework, you have to learn to multitask better. I.e., you have to EARN that free time you crave, because you are no longer entitled to play all day – or to expect someone else to do your work for you.
2. If you want to be more popular with either teachers or classmates, you have to improve your social skills. I.e., it takes…work. Again.
3. And, if your only social goals in life are to have one-night stands and/or mooch money whenever you can, don’t be surprised when word gets around and you’re suddenly even more unpopular than before.
As the great playwright/actor Harvey Fierstein said, partly in reference to the “perpetual adolescent”: “If you deny yourself commitment, what can you do with your life?”