By David Futrelle
Incels will jump through hoops to prove that whatever it is about them that turns women off, it’s something they can’t control. It’s not their personality; it’s not their noxious ideas about women. Rather, it’s the exact shape of their chin, or the slant of their eyes; it’s their height, or weight, or the the size of their penis.
But this leads to problems. What happens when incels realize that their dicks — while far from porn-sized — are pretty much the same size as most other men? They’ll convince themselves through mathematical principles understood only by other incels that their dicks are still at least two inches shorter than the dicks an average woman will encounter first-hand in her lifetime, thus making their average sized dicks decidedly below average. (Never mind that there’s zero evidence that the dicks women encounter are usually above average in size; they just made that up.)
And when it comes to height, well, Incels do pretty much the same thing. In the shortcells subreddit — the replacement for the banned shortcels subreddit — the regulars are convinced it is their short stature rather than their distinct lack of charm that is the key element in their failures with women. But what counts as short? With 5′ 9″ the average height for American men, more than a few incels who consider themselves short are in reality of average height. (Average heights around the world range from roughly 5′ 5″ for Indian men and nearly 6 feet for Dutch men.)
But one incel Redditor called Bad_Parking thinks that his colleagues in the subreddit are too willing to accept the actual facts about average height, convincing themselves that “5’7″ is an okay height and that 5’9″-5’10” constitutes as a tall fag.” (Which, if you strip out the homophobic language, is in fact true.)
No, according to Mr. Parking, the “the average height for the new generation … white male is at least 5’11”-6’0″.”
This isn’t true, by the way. While average heights around the world gained several inches over the course of the twentieth century, this pattern of gain seems to have come to an end; the average height of a American male born today is expected to be 5′ 9″, same as it is now.
But Mr. Parking is only getting started.
[C]onsidering that the high height standards are only a thing because women like to compare you to other MEN not to women. Therefore this makes the heights below 6’2″ as mediocre to acceptable at best. Having the average height of 6’0″ does not automatically make you a fakecel because as we all know no average is enough to give you any boost in the dating market.
Ok, but 6 feet is not the average height for men outside the Netherlands. And the idea that women will only reluctantly date any man under 6′ 2″ is just straight up ludicrous.
No, if the so-called shortcels of Reddit want to know what it is that makes women cringe in their presence, they need only take a look at some of the other posts in their subreddit.
Here’s one from today — with 93 upvotes:
Here’s a screenshot that got 113 upvotes for the allegedly “based” retort from Ragesh.
Here’s a comment on this screenshot:
Here are several posts mocking the allegedly loose and smelly vaginas of alleged sluts over the age of, say, 30. There are so many of these posted on a regular basis there that even some incels have gotten sick of them
And here is but one of many posts referring to the so-called “dogpill” — that is, the notion, widespread among incels, that white women routinely have sex with male dogs.
Yeah, dudes, I’m sure it’s your HEIGHT that repulses the women.
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I am 5’2″, but when I’ve said something about being short to people I work with I have often seen them react with surprise. “You are not short!” (I almost never wear heels higher than an inch btw.) People don’t think of me a short because I have a commanding presence. Any physical drawback (and for the record I don’t think being short is a drawback, except where things are on high shelves) can be overcome with a winning personality (and the high shelf thing can be overcome with a step stool).
Also, my husband has a theory that smaller people have more symmetrical features and are therefore more attractive.
But it is true that there is subtle and not subtle height bias out there. When your children are born you’re always measuring them against the growth charts and seeing where they fall in terms of percentile. This goes on for years and years and they feel it. People compliment a well grown child. And every little one finds it humiliating to be asked if they’re in kindergarten when they’re really in grade 2. An early growth spurt gives kids a huge advantage in many sports, which can give them a boost socially during the awkward years. And on and on…
@Ohlmann
Ease down, my friend, and put yourself in their shoes for a moment:
You’re talking on a site with people you mostly get on with – decent sorts, for sure. Suddenly you find out that one of those decent sorts almost became one of the types that hates you and everything you are. Missed doing it literally by accident, according to their tale. That’s upsetting.
Then you hear it again. A driveby drops in and – again, you find out about a near miss. And again. There’s another!
That’s got to be very disconcerting and upsetting, at the very least.
Oh boy, here we go again.
That’s odd, I’m white and I also had a troubled and isolated teenage phase, but i never feel like I would have most likely joined the KKK if they’d been available to me during that phase.
Am I glad that Temascos didn’t become an incel? Sure. If he wants to give himself a cookie for not becoming a violent misogynist (by sheer chance of being born earlier), then he can go for it. I’m not going to stop him.
Do I think that a place primarily populated by women, dedicated to cataloging the absolutely terrible shit that incels do, is a great place for dudes to come here and talk about how they nearly became one of the guys celebrating the mass killings that are still happening? No. I don’t.
I don’t see the point in it. What is the constructive purpose of sharing that information with us? We already know how common and insidious this kind of misogyny is, and having reminders of how many male allies of ours could have been one of them isn’t exactly pleasant. Are we supposed to be grateful about it, that there aren’t more of them? Is that the intention? Because that’s not how it makes me feel.
If dudes want to talk about their close calls with being radicalized, that’s fine. I encourage them to do so, and reach out to other dudes who are teetering on the edge. But I don’t think that this is the right place for it. And I don’t think that makes me “just as bad” as the incels, either.
@Susan
Can relate. When I was in 5th grade, I was running a 5K and was asked by one of the fellow runners after whether I was in the second grade. I found it especially odd because that was right when I started growing facial hair, which very few second graders would have had.
My younger sister had the same issue (possibly to a greater degree as she was shorter than I), all through elementary school she was asked whether she was in kindergarten.
@Catalpa
I agree with your response, but I have mixed feelings about this specific sentence. On left wing Twitter and YouTube, it seems to have become a trend for former alt right or alt right adjacent radicals to take on some leftist economic ideas, then present themselves as the “Dirtbag left” and use lots of slurs and right wing language. They claim this is to deradicalize the right, which in theory is a good idea but in practice seems to involve being edgy and bigoted and telling alt right people they can be leftists if they adopt certain economic ideas but keep being bigoted against minorities. It really does make me question how much they have changed and it doesn’t seem to help the left. So in theory I support the idea but in practice it doesn’t seem to work too well, at least the way it’s currently executed.
I hope that made sense, I can’t really think of a better way to word it.
Not to kick a hornet’s nest, but I think the whole “I could have been an incel” thing is more about how the incel movement is similar to a cult in that they find people at some of their weakest points and prey on that to lure them in, whereupon they get twisted into the cultist shape, rather than an “I empathize with mass murders” type confession.
For example, I recognize that certain aspects of my personality would have made me a frighteningly zealous religious fanatic, were it not for the fact that my parents raised me without religion and emphasized critical thought and self reflection. Those were very hard traits for me to internalize, because I have a tendency towards blind certitude; the fact that my initial, impulsive conclusions are often wrong has reinforced my self reflection, and these days I trust my thoughts far more than my impulses, but if I’d been raised in a religious household that valued adherence to doctrine more than truth, I’d most likely have been a fundie.
Which is not me saying that I am some closet fundie or that I empathize with them or their bigotry, just recognizing the reality of how my brain works and what dark paths could have captivated me had my circumstances been different. I suspect most of the “could have been an incel” posts here are of a similar type.
Edited to add:
Just saw Catalpa’s latest post, and feel like I should withdraw my foot, since I completely misread the issue. My apologies all around.
@Naglfar
Yeah, that’s a fair point. The rise of folks claiming progressive ideals while being bigoted shitheads is definitely a problem.
I don’t really have a practical solution to that issue, either. I guess that it’s important for folks (especially privileged folks) to realize that just because they managed to avoid a worst case scenario, there’s still a lot of continual, ongoing work that they need to do in order to limit, remove, and unlearn the massive array of internalized bigotries that we’ve absorbed as a result of growing up in a racist, homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, classist, ableist, etc. culture.
@Catalpa
And that is where the dirtbag left fails. They seem to think that just by professing a certain vague economic ideal they’re done and should get free ally points from every marginalized group. Then, when marginalized people criticize them they lash out about what great allies they are and how they shouldn’t be criticized.
@Catalpa
Hey, wanted to say I’m sorry first off. I fucked up with what I said earlier. You’re right in that this isn’t the right place for it and I should have paid closer attention to what I was saying.
@ Lumipuna
Yep! It’s been a while since I last posted on here, very glad to see the community and website is still going strong 🙂
I guess the disturbing thing about some of the “there but for the grace of God…” stories we’ve seen here is the implication is that there’s so little daylight between incel and progressive ideology that the smallest chance event, like getting turned down for a date, can nudge a person forever down the wrong fork. That isn’t how it works.
Misogyny isn’t an accident forced on people by outside circumstances. It’s a story people consciously choose to tell themselves in order to explain the world. It doesn’t require any effort on the part of the believer, just blinders and a sense of unearned superiority. Young men, constantly exposed to toxic models of behavior, are especially susceptible to that way of thinking.
I am interested in hearing stories about how people turned away from the incel path, but it…needs to feel like a longer journey, I guess? One doesn’t casually go overnight from “kill all femoids lolz” to “all humans have inherent dignity and worth independent of physical appearance or capitalist utility” without a lot of work and introspection.
@Temascos – I’m glad you were able to avoid the rabbit hole and begin the process of accepting yourself. In many ways, that’s the hardest task. But also the most important.
numerobis said
This is definitely my experience; I’ve been turned down by men who were around my height (5’7″) because they like high heels and I would’ve been taller with them. Also, more than a few shorter men demurred as well.
TMI warning – –
One (only slightly) shorter dude I fancied was actually persuaded when I told him I really wanted to slow dance with a guy who could nestle his head in my cleavage. We even experimented with finding just the right shoes for me to achieve that. Heaven!
@Buttercup
Thanks! It was a very long time ago now but it’s more of a looking back on it with a new perspective and seeing some similarities to some of their train of thoughts (In regards to inferority and being undatable due to genetics, that sort of stuff.) that made me think “Oh! I should say that too!” like a complete numpty on here! 🙂
I’ve unintentionally bogged down the comment section with my nonsense, which is my bad so I’m gonna get back on topic now…
WTF is with Dog Pill!?
Uh yeah, cis guys (and other AMAB if applicable), please stop with the “there but for the grace of…” stuff. Again. This seems to come up every few months, and every time it’s traumatic and painful for people who have been targets of patriarchal anger and entitlement.
How about let’s not. This is for you to process among each other, in your own spaces, instead of dumping in the laps of people who have been victimized by that kind of thinking.
Sincerely,
An AMAB trans person who is also sick of this shit.
Edit:
Also count me in as another woman who is into shorter guys. Being antsy about extreme strength differences is part of it (c.f. tons of experience with physical abuse), but also just. Short guys are cute. Sigh.
@Temascos
I think it’s a sort of projection—incels are the kinds of people who might fuck dogs, so they project it onto women.
@Buttercup
I’ve stumbled across posts on r/IncelTears a few times about/from people who’ve left incel ideology, and occasionally interviews with former incels show up in the news. One commonality for many of them seems to be going out and seeing the real world rather than just listening to what incels describe as the world (which often bears little in common with the real world). This is important because incel descriptions of the world are designed to make other incels feel hopeless and feel dependent, much like a cult, so they don’t leave or question it.
I think the risk that the alt-right will recruit the white cis male leftists who are of the class reductionist bent is so great that it’s not worth trying to recruit alt right or alt right adjacent people. It’s not likely to work, but it does alienate women, POC and LGBTQ people.
I remember a few months ago when Joe Rogan indicated that he might be willing to vote for Bernie Sanders, the dirtbag left couldn’t rush fast enough to kiss Rogan’s ass. Then acted like the rest of us were being unreasonable to not welcome him and his stans with open loving arms. Because we know who this guy is and it’s not good.
Then a few days ago when the Chris D’elia accusations came out, a thread goes around with clips of Rogan yucking it up with comedians about raping women. This is the man we’re supposed to bend over backwards to recruit to the left. No fucking thanks.
@WWTH
This. I think the primarily cishet white male Dirtbag left knows this, and many are very friendly with the alt right. They don’t care, they just want to be able to claim to be good but still be bigots. A lot are also from the alt right and as a result even if they are sincere (and I doubt many are), it doesn’t seem like they’re the kinds of people best suited to recruitment, period.
I’ve heard a lot of them claim we should also not recruit and actively reject centrists because they somehow think it’s better to recruit from the alt right. This makes no sense unless they’re trying to make the left more like the alt right (which is what they seem to be doing).
My son is 6ft 3″ and that had it’s own problems when he was growing up. When he was 5 he was as tall as an 8 year old, so people expected him to act like an 8 year old and got very cross when he acted his age not his height.
Supposedly at age three you’re half your adult height. I can’t remember how tall I was then though so I have no way of verifying that.
I can see how it’s possible for incels to convince themselves that women have these very specific penis size requirements because unless you see someone naked you’re not going to know the size of their penis. I can see how they could blame their datelessness on canthal tilt and wrist circumference and very slight differences in bone structure because unless you’re examining everyone you meet with calipers you’re not going to know exactly how big their wrists are. I can even see how they could believe the dog pill thing, disgusting and misogynistic as it is, because it is about the secret behaviour of women in private.
But how could they think all men below 6′ in height are single? It’s significantly easier to judge height from a distance than canthal tilt. Most people can roughly determine height at least relative to themselves and to other people in the same vicinity if everyone is standing up. They must, absolutely must have met men who are 5’5″ or 5’7″ or whatever who go on dates or have partners. I just don’t see how they could lie to themselves about this.
It’s possible they’re simply saying that being under 6′ is a disadvantage when dating, not a total disqualifier, which, okay, let’s say that’s true. A disadvantage can’t make you totally unfuckable, can it? So it’s not an “incel” thing.
My other thought is that they believe women are hard-wired not to be attracted to men of average and lower height but some women are in relationships with these shorter men anyway because they’re pressured by other things–money, status, etc. But then they already believe women are hard-wired not to be attracted to them. They’re just upset that women get to choose not to be with men they find unattractive. If women are with these supposedly short men despite supposedly hating how they look, isn’t that a victory for incels?
@Viscaria
If being under 6 feet is a disadvantage, it’s one most men have, seeing as about 82% of men in the US are under 6 feet tall.
They’ll keep raising the bar for height until it’s 7 feet, then an actual 7 foot guy will complain he’s too tall to get dates. Then incelism will split into shortcels and tallcels, and they’ll be mortal enemies.
@Numerobis: OMG yes. I am 5’10”, which I don’t even consider that tall, and my height frequently makes shorter men feel uncomfortable. I can’t wear heels, so I don’t make myself taller or anything. I don’t know what the fuck they expect me to do.
One time I ended up being the example person the instructor used during a dance class I was taking. He was way shorter than me and I ended up having to let go of his hand during turns because it was either that or duck or get hit in the head, both of which would’ve been ridiculous. He yelled at me in front of the class about letting go and being too tall and what was I doing being tall, etc…
@Buttercup Q. Skullpants
How conscious is it, though, at least at first? If you’re growing up in a misogynistic world, do you really deliberately put on these blinders, or do you grow up with them and something has to crack through them? Obviously, there’s no single answer, but… Well, we recognize that their sense of superiority is unearned, but do they? You have to sit down and consider things before you realize that about yourself — in the same way, or at least a similar way to what it takes to recognize that you have white privilege or something like that; and most people, I suspect, need some sort of external stimulus to engage in the sort of self-reflection required to see how their minds are working. (Sorry, this is a really confused way of putting things.)
Genuine self-reflection is one of the hardest skills to learn, not least because, as you point out, it’s a lot easier not to. Which is why the “There but for the grace of God” type of self-knowledge is important — even if, obviously, this isn’t really the place for it. (CW: people who don’t like that discussion may want to skip the rest of this paragraph; I’m not trying to bring it back just after having admitted this isn’t the right spot, it just seems important to explain where I’m coming from.) In my case, when I was 13 I was creepily obsessed with a girl at school. Looking back, I’m appalled at my behavior and some of the thought patterns accompanying it, even allowing for the fact I was a hormonal 13 year old and have since discovered I’m prone to depression. I grew out of it, but if the internet had been a thing at the time, I suspect I would have become a rather vile cyberstalker — and while I like to think I would have grown out of that, too, I can’t know it. I didn’t have an echo chamber to amplify my feelings, thankfully, but it does mean that I’m left with the possibility of what I might have turned into in different circumstances, and therefore the knowledge to be on the lookout for something similar happening again. (I hate to defend Jordan Peterson in any way, but I do think that people missed the point when he said that if he’d grown up in Nazi Germany he’d probably have ended up as a concentration camp guard. That struck me not as an admission he’s a Nazi so much as the sort of self-knowledge I’m talking about — the awareness of where your instincts might lead you that, if you’re a decent human being, you therefore know to guard against. Though since it’s JP, it probably was also an admission to being a Nazi.)
Apologies to all for making this bit of the thread drag on; please don’t feel any need to respond if you’d rather the subject just died, it just felt… I dunno, important somehow to respond. I’m not even sure why.
@Brassica
Wait. Is it at all possible, just maybe, that the only way this incel has ever thought of to hit on a woman is to send her a dick pic?
@Imaginary Petal
I imagine that for men of that height life would be made harder due to the fact that most buildings, furniture, and vehicles aren’t designed for people that tall. I have a friend who is 6’8” and he says airplanes are a nightmare. Plus, clothes shopping is probably hard because not much clothing is made for men of that height.
@Rabid Rabbit
I think it can be good to reflect on negative tendencies of the past, but this isn’t the place for it. A lot of commenters here are women and it makes some of us a bit nervous when someone is talking about how they were so close to being misogynists. We had a similar discussion of this idea in this thread.
Seems likely.
I attempted to post something last night about the “Make Women Great Again” event but had problems with both my device, and WiFi connection so don’t know whether that’s the reason it isn’t here or if themods decided not to let it through. Can a mod let me know so that if its the former I can post again? Thank you.
@ naglfar
How low are they flying!