By David Futrelle
What happens when a fixed belief runs headlong into reality? Do you adapt your beliefs to the new reality — or do you adapt reality to fit your beliefs, constructing a fantasy world to live in where you’re never wrong?
If you’re a MGTOW Redditor, well, it’s door number two.
One of the strangest and most persistent delusions shared by manosphere men — and MGTOWs in particular — is that women are only attractive in their teens and early 20s, “hitting the wall” when they reach their 25th birthday or so and becoming hideous old monsters no man could ever desire.
Never mind that this has no relation to reality and that many of the most famous female sex symbols of the moment — from Salma Hayek to Kim Kardashian — are in their thirties and forties and fifties. Never mind that many of the women these guys likely ogle at the supermarket on a daily basis have “hit the wall” and kept right on going.
Their insistence that women are suddenly hideeous old bags after the age of 25 leads them into many strange places.. Consider the dude who posted this query to the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit the other day: “What happens to womens Instagram when they turn 25?”
This strange, sad, delusional man.
Dude, women don’t become invisible when they hit 25. They don’t get themselves to a nunnery. They don’t retreat to a cave in the woods. And they don’t shut down their Instagrams.
Indeed, a teensy tiny bit of internet research on my part reveals that the largest demographic on Instagram — making up 35.2 percent of U.S. Instagram users — is the 25-34 year old group. (18-24 year olds make up only 21.4 percent.) In other words, Mr. MGTOW, most women on Instagram are post-wall and still posting.
Not only that, but if you take a quick look at the most popular women on Instagram you’ll find that they’re almost all above the age of 25. Sure, you’ve got Kylie and Kendal Jenner (22 and 24 years old, respectively). But you’ve also got Khloe and Kim Kardashian, 35 and 39. And when you look beyond this single family, you find many other post-wall women in the top twenty, from Ariana Grande (26) and Miley Cyrus (27) to Katy Perry and Taylor Swift (both 30) to Beyonce (38) and Jennifer Lopez (50). These women all have anywhere from 100 million to 200 million followers each. They are anything but invisible.
“The wall” is not a real thing; it’s something to scare women with. But that would require women to believe in it. As it seems now, the only people who’ve been suckered in by this propaganda are those spreading it in the first place — MGTOWs and Red Pillers and other misogynists. You know your movement is in trouble when the only people believing your bullshit are those in your movement. That’s not how propaganda is supposed to work.
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@epronovost
That seems like a weird conclusion to make, given that the alternative is that MGTOW skew old but like crafting complex justifications for why they avoid adult women (totally not because they have no tolerance for aggrieved, entitled, creepy manbaby bullshit; they’re just post wall!) and instead fantasize about physically and emotionally immature girls instead.
I mean, there’s no shortage of evidence on this very blog, right?
His next question is going to be “Where does the moon go when I stop looking out the window?”
@Kat
That finally answers the question of why there are no lesbians past 30: there are no women past 25, period.
@epronovost
I don’t think that’s evidence MGTOWs are young, lots of young men are into older women. It seems more like evidence they’re just self centered misogynists who think their taste applies universally.
@Talonknife
Though everyone is a bit different, I would agree for a few reasons. First, men seem more likely to experience age related issues like balding because testosterone. Second, men are less likely to use cosmetics and/or plastic surgery to enhance their appearance. Third, society doesn’t place much weight upon a man’s appearance so men aren’t pressured to attempt to look good in old age.
This isn’t of course universal, there are older men who do look good, but in general these seem true.
@Buttercup
Object permanence is a lot to expect from the MGTOW set.
OT: This is one of the best examples of white male fragility I’ve seen lately:
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/watch-white-man-has-a-13-minute-meltdown-over-coffee-shops-black-lives-matter-sign/
I am forty this year and finally look like I’m in my thirties. I look older than my Someone, even though he’s older…and he’s okay with that. He’s always telling me I’m pretty, and sexy, and beautiful.
When I was in my early twenties I weighed under a hundred pounds and looked like I was starving, because I was anorexic. I’m much better looking fifteen years “post wall”.
My partner deliberately let her hair go grey – otherwise she still looks late 20s – as she got a wee bit tired of getting bullshit from colleagues younger than our youngest.
Can’t say I miss mucking about with hair dyes all that much. Those were always traumatic experiences. 😛
Two days ago I turned 37, I have only just got an Instagram account (about two months ago), and I have only just realised and accepted that I’m probably not a woman.
In MGTOW reality these things must be related.
In the real world, I got my Insta to share book and embroidery love and to keep in touch with certain people since I deleted my Facebook, and the whole ‘not being a woman’ thing is something I’ve been wrestling with for 30 years, it just took me a while to figure things out (I blame being autistic for that – alexithymia and trying to work out what’s ‘autistic questioning social stereotypes, conventions and impositions’, and what’s ‘me’ is really hard at times). I rarely take selfies, because although my home-haircut bob is fabulous, I don’t like my double chins. I have body image issues. I don’t care whether my pictures of books and crafting gets likes, it’s nice but not essential, I’m more interesting in keeping up with my friends’ adventures, things I’ve missed since I deleted my Facebook account. I happen to like pictures of clouds, plants and cats.
SO, MGTOW, this AFAB person who you would probably insist is a woman, way past ‘the wall’ has shown you are wrong, purely by existing. Get a social life, mate, it might help you understand the propaganda doesn’t equal reality.
Have any of these ding-dongs ever actually been on Instagram? They act like it ONLY exists, at least for women, as a selfie vehicle. There is an endless variety of categories on Instagram; to pull just three examples from my follows: people fixing up old farm properties, waves that kind of look like people, and the pomeranian owned by that huge Icelandic guy who played The Mountain on Game of Thrones. My own photos mostly consist of desserts I’ve baked, my dog, my fountain pen/ink collection, old tombstones/mausoleums, and weird things I find in antique stores. I only post selfies when I change my hairstyle.
And my brother’s biggest crush is Helen Mirren, who is 74.
My favorite category on Instagram is the “weird musical instruments and modifications” category (for example, Kevin Monn) because I’m interested in unique musical experiments.
As for Helen Mirren, she’s also a great actress. I enjoyed her performance in The Woman In Gold.
@Robert Haynie – LOL, wanted to talk about this. And given many manospherians and alt-righters’ sometimes fetishistic obsession with Japan, I sincerely doubt it’s any kind of coincidence at all.
As for age-related appearances, I’m a now 41 cishet male, but I have such a baby face (and a full head of barely-graying hair) that people regularly think me 10-15 years younger; I was mistaken for 23 last fall when I was 40. Make of this what you will.
Oh yeah, got an Instagram account this year but I barely use it at all. Maybe due to social media glut.
@ Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation- I’m late to the party, and apologies if your question was tongue in cheek, but the superbowl halftime show was done by J lo and shakira- and J lo was the one using a stripper pole, in reference to one of her early films, I believe. I was impressed at the moves both women pulled, and highly amused by the pearl clutching from conservatives.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pILCn6VO_RU
I think my favorite prt was where J lo flips around her Stars and Stripe cloak to show the Peurto Rican flag side- USians need to be reminded occasionally that Peurto Rico is definitely part of the US.
I wonder how these guys explain the popularity of MILF porn? They probably insist that it is a hoax perpetuated by Da Jooz to steal their vital essence.
As for Instagram, every one that I subscribe to is pictures of animals, Lego MOCs, and Warhammer miniatures.
I’m a 52 year old bloke, and my Instagram has twenty eight followers! It’s a tough responsibility being a social influencer. I refuse to monetise it though; I don’t want all those potential sponsors compromising my independence.
https://www.instagram.com/alan_robertshaw/
@alan 29, followers.
I’ll be 40 in the fall, I switched from selfies to mostly gardening and cats bc gross dudes wouldn’t leave my old, post-wall fat ass alone.
@Allandrel
I would guess they feel the same way as they do about anal porn: they think it’s white genocide by Jews. If pressed, I’m sure their justification would be something about how older women are less likely to get pregnant than their younger counterparts (nevermind that most “MILFs” in porn are in their late 20s or 30s i.e. not that old) and they’d say it “indoctrinates” men to want sex with older women.
@ clever4agirl
Hey; lovely to see you again; missed you!
And thank you for that. Kim Karadashian must be panicking now!
Obligatory summary of my sexual history: Virgin until 26, didn’t really start “slutting around” until my 30s, even now in my 40s I have no issue finding partners, to the point where I can be kind of lazy about it… and the only reason why I don’t have a very active sex life right now is because of the damn virus. Okay, admittedly it helps that I’m fairly attractive and in good shape (though not to the point where someone would mistake me for a model or anything), and was rather overweight in my teens and early 20s. If my life had been a planned, deliberate defiance of that nonsense, it would be hard to have done it better.
On one hand, I’m grateful that my age generally acts as a manosperian repellent. On the other hand, it probably *would* be better if they bothered me rather than someone much younger and less experienced with dealing with the likes of them. On third hand, it would be better still if they bothered no one at all.
Not directly related to the point of the post, but one thing I find strange is the implication that social media use/attention is the domain of women.
It would be interesting if someone did an analysis of Instagram to find out the relative quantity and size of male and female accounts. While it’s certainly plausible that women have a greater presence, there are definitely a ton of men on there, many of them sex symbols. There are also of course women who aren’t there in a sexual capacity.
AMAB and another 40-who-looks-20-something here. Maybe a dozen actually active followers.
@Allandrel:
MOCs?
@Snowberry:
Right now I’d settle for a cheeseburger. I haven’t had one since late February! No affordable food place here seems to have bothered to set up patio tables; it’s all still drive-through and take-out only, which is completely and utterly useless to anyone who doesn’t own a car.
Original designs, as opposed to models built according to published instructions. It stands for My Original Creation.
Off topic – while I trust polls about as much as I trust tabasco as a spermicide, this did cheer me up some:
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/xg8wya/trumps-poll-numbers-are-so-bad-the-gop-is-starting-to-panic-about-a-wipeout
@Surplus – it’s really missing chocolate trifle for me. Used to buy one as a reward for doing the supermarket run every couple weeks. Not had one in months now. Hell, car doesn’t even start, battery is totally flat.
If these maggots knew about this cis lesbian on Reddit who makes $100k doing sex work online I bet they’d lose their minds.
@Perry
I think this is related to the stereotype that women are more phone addicted, which in turn is from the stereotype that women talk more than men. I don’t think either of those are true, but they are popular stereotypes.
@Shadowplay
I’m still nervous, but let’s hope the polls are accurate. We need Trump to lose by a landslide, and it would be great to have the Senate too.
It’s also that selfies = vanity in the minds of a lot of people. Therefore, social media is a woman thing because vanity is a woman thing.
The Bar Council here have introduced a new app; so you can just flash your phone and by-pass security going into court. To set it up you have to upload a photo. Rather than wait for someone competent to call round I decided I could take one myself. After about 43 attempts I got one that looked vaguely presentable. I logged onto the relevant webpage to upload the pic. I accidentally though uploaded one of the terrible ones. But before I could cancel and replace I got an auto-generated email saying “You’re all set up”. So now my pass looks like I’m coming to rob the place.
I wish I could have had a nice vain one.
Worries of an electoral wipeout are just one more reason for Republicans to double down on election rigging or even support Trump’s inevitable attempt to prevent the election entirely.