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A dispatch from the world of MGTOW, where women shut down their Instagrams and go live in a cave when they “hit the wall” at 25

Kim Kardashian: Wrinkled old lady of 39

By David Futrelle

What happens when a fixed belief runs headlong into reality? Do you adapt your beliefs to the new reality — or do you adapt reality to fit your beliefs, constructing a fantasy world to live in where you’re never wrong?

If you’re a MGTOW Redditor, well, it’s door number two.

One of the strangest and most persistent delusions shared by manosphere men — and MGTOWs in particular — is that women are only attractive in their teens and early 20s, “hitting the wall” when they reach their 25th birthday or so and becoming hideous old monsters no man could ever desire.

Never mind that this has no relation to reality and that many of the most famous female sex symbols of the moment — from Salma Hayek to Kim Kardashian — are in their thirties and forties and fifties. Never mind that many of the women these guys likely ogle at the supermarket on a daily basis have “hit the wall” and kept right on going.

Their insistence that women are suddenly hideeous old bags after the age of 25 leads them into many strange places.. Consider the dude who posted this query to the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit the other day: “What happens to womens Instagram when they turn 25?”

What happens to womens Instagram when they turn 25? (self.MGTOW)

submitted 1 day ago by Teddy2999

I haven't seen this anywhere and I don't have enough of a social life to know the answer but some of you will know.

Women's peak market value is 23, and by 25, they pretty much ran out of steam.

Every woman has an instagram. Like "normal" women, every woman. So you have clear photo documentation of when they become invisible. What happens when a woman turns 25 now? She just stops using instagram? They are addicted to it. They need that fix.

There's two loose ends that need addressing:
- their addiction to validation and attention, what happens to a woman after that?
- What does she do once she starts losing followers and likes?

I never though of this before but I've been following MGTOW and redpill for years.

This strange, sad, delusional man.

Dude, women don’t become invisible when they hit 25. They don’t get themselves to a nunnery. They don’t retreat to a cave in the woods. And they don’t shut down their Instagrams.

Indeed, a teensy tiny bit of internet research on my part reveals that the largest demographic on Instagram — making up 35.2 percent of U.S. Instagram users — is the 25-34 year old group. (18-24 year olds make up only 21.4 percent.) In other words, Mr. MGTOW, most women on Instagram are post-wall and still posting.

Not only that, but if you take a quick look at the most popular women on Instagram you’ll find that they’re almost all above the age of 25. Sure, you’ve got Kylie and Kendal Jenner (22 and 24 years old, respectively). But you’ve also got Khloe and Kim Kardashian, 35 and 39. And when you look beyond this single family, you find many other post-wall women in the top twenty, from Ariana Grande (26) and Miley Cyrus (27) to Katy Perry and Taylor Swift (both 30) to Beyonce (38) and Jennifer Lopez (50). These women all have anywhere from 100 million to 200 million followers each. They are anything but invisible.

“The wall” is not a real thing; it’s something to scare women with. But that would require women to believe in it. As it seems now, the only people who’ve been suckered in by this propaganda are those spreading it in the first place — MGTOWs and Red Pillers and other misogynists. You know your movement is in trouble when the only people believing your bullshit are those in your movement. That’s not how propaganda is supposed to work.

Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.

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Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
1 year ago

Uh, I’m a woman and I don’t have an Instagram. Mostly ‘cos I have enough social media stuff already. So am I an atypical woman, or am I excused from having an Instagram because I’m “post-wall”?

Oh, and she may not have millions of followers, but Christine McConnell has an Instagram, and she’s definitely not invisible AND “post-wall”. I’d love to pull off vintage glamor the way she does, but I can’t be arsed. So I just subscribe to her YouTube channel and admire her work.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

I don’t have an Instagram account, but from what I’ve seen of the platform, there are plenty of women past 25.

Do you adapt your beliefs to the new reality — or do you adapt reality to fit your beliefs, constructing a fantasy world to live in where you’re never wrong?

“You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”
-The Doctor

What does she do once she starts losing followers and likes?

I would imagine that most people who lose followers and likes go on with their lives and don’t obsess over it. Though I would imagine this is a case of projection.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m always torn on whether MGTOW are really so self deluded that they believe no men are ever attracted to women over age 25, or if they just pretend it’s so because they really want to scare young and naive women into settling for them.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@WWTH
I think it’s the second. It’s no secret that many men are attracted to “post-wall” women (the MILF/cougar archetype, for example), so I don’t think they actually believe that no men like older women. It’s probably just another way to hate women and create a no win situation.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 year ago

Wasn’t there a thread recently where it transpired that there existed a market for the services of at least two 68-year-old(!) female sex workers? Wall, meet wrecking ball.

And don’t look now, but the cops are protesting being held accountable again:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/18/atlanta-rayshard-brooks-walkout/

What happens, though, if the result of this sick-out is that a whole lot more people realize they never needed them?

Talonknife
Talonknife
1 year ago

TIL JLo is 50.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 year ago

Weren’t the right-wingers melting down about that recently, too? Specifically, JLo doing some kind of sexy (but clothed) stripper-pole dance at some sportsball event or other (wait, why was there a stripper-pole dance at a sportsball event? Have I missed something?) while older-than-30.

I can’t seem to track down the link, for some reason, but I believe it was mentioned here, maybe only in the comments though.

Mabret the Virile Maiden
Mabret the Virile Maiden
1 year ago

I believe it was Shakira at a recent Super Bowl. Why such a thing happened at such a place is likely because sportsball, especially American football, is full of toxic masculinity. See also cheerleaders.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Surplus

Wasn’t there a thread recently where it transpired that there existed a market for the services of at least two 68-year-old(!) female sex workers? Wall, meet wrecking ball.

Yes, the Fokken twins. TBH, there are probably a lot of sex workers over 25 (though probably not as many in their 60s and 70s), seeing how popular the fantasy of the cougar is for many men I would imagine there would be some escorts and porn stars of that age group.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

Man, I wish I had gained the ability to become invisible when I turned 25, that would be sweet! Not necessarily my first choice for a superpower, but I’ll take what I can get.

Well, assuming that I’d be able to wear clothes while going invisible, because it’s too damn cold to be running around in the nude, even for invisibility.

Back to trying out exotic forms of radiation, since temporally-triggered superpowers seem increasingly unlikely. Sigh…

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Catalpa

Well, assuming that I’d be able to wear clothes while going invisible, because it’s too damn cold to be running around in the nude, even for invisibility.

Would people then just see floating clothes? That would still presumably hide your identity, but you might freak a lot of people out.

Back to trying out exotic forms of radiation, since temporally-triggered superpowers seem increasingly unlikely. Sigh…

Have you tried looking for magic swords? Fairies?

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
1 year ago

Well, assuming that I’d be able to wear clothes while going invisible, because it’s too damn cold to be running around in the nude, even for invisibility.

Would people then just see floating clothes? That would still presumably hide your identity, but you might freak a lot of people out.

comment image?w=327&h=245

Tohka
Tohka
1 year ago

Its never not creepy and pedophilic when men declare the age of women as “bad” at the age where our brains are fully formed and developed. Their actions that they want underage girls to manipulate into abusive relationships is so transparent. Certain subs like the_walll have been deleted though. But Mgtow, redpill, pussypassdenined and the rest are long ocerdue to be deleted

tim gueguen
1 year ago

I’m guessing these guys are too young to have experienced Tina Turner becoming a solo star at 44 with her album Private Dancer. Or late ’80s Cher. No one figured they’d “hit the wall.”

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
1 year ago

Okay, guy with not much social life, I’ll help you out with your question. When a woman turns 26 she drops dead. That’s because living in this world without constant male validation is just too hard. And that’s why you don’t see any woman older than 25 anywhere, including Instagram.

epronovost
epronovost
1 year ago

I think the mythical “wall” is a clear sign that MGTOW are skewing pretty damn young. As most men age, their taste when it comes to women usually change with it and they gain interest in older women, especially if they got style and style most often requires experience.

Robert Haynie
Robert Haynie
1 year ago

This is faintly similar to the Japanese phenomenon of “Christmas Cake”.

It was, until the last decade or two, imperative on the Japanese woman to be married. Married young– and certainly before she turned, say, 25. Coined around the 80’s, the somewhat mocking term for a woman not married by then was “Christmas Cake”– which no-one wants to buy after the 25th, implying that the woman was somehow stale after that.

It’s far less common these days, as unmarried older women– and divorcees– are both more common and more acceptable than they once were, although the social pressure to marry still exists– it’s just more likely to be ignored.

And it certainly never caused mass vanishings of females as Mr. Teddy9999 seems to think. (It did cause considerable anxiety with many girls to find a mate before the dreaded Big 25, pre New Century, though.)

Just a strange cultural parallel that I thought might be of interest…

epitome of incomprehensibility

Not all women use Instagram to post selfies. What about accounts dedicated to, say, pictures of turtles, interesting rock formations, or parodies of famous paintings? Are “post-wall” women allowed to post stuff like that??

LaMaria
LaMaria
1 year ago

Minor nitpick:
“Indeed, a teensy tiny bit of internet research on my part reveals that the largest demographic on Instagram — making up 35.2 percent of U.S. Instagram users — is the 25-34 year old group. (18-24 year olds make up only 21.4 percent.) In other words, Mr. MGTOW, most women on Instagram are post-wall and still posting.”
The first group contains 10 birth-years and the second only 7 so the difference is smaller than it appears. And gender isn´t mentioned. But your general point stands.

occasional reader
occasional reader
1 year ago

Obviously, typing “MILF” in a porn site will return 0 entry.
Anyway, after a woman turns 25, if she is not killed by someone, she then turn 26. Seems that “Walls” are kind of an obsession between your president and you, dear MGTOW.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 year ago

Mexico will still pay attention to post-wall women’s Instagrams.

Amtep
Amtep
1 year ago

They’re misunderstanding their own metaphor. A wall is a barrier that you cannot pass, so there can be no such thing as “post-wall”. When women hit 25, they just stop aging. They stay 25 forever.

Talonknife
Talonknife
1 year ago

Every time I read these posts about women “hitting the wall,” I always think of the beginning of Bowling For Soup’s “1985.”

“Debbie just hit the wall,
She never had it all.”

TBH, I think men generally age worse than women. I’m 21 and already look like I’m in my 40s.

LollyPop
LollyPop
1 year ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

I’m always torn on whether MGTOW are really so self deluded that they believe no men are ever attracted to women over age 25, or if they just pretend it’s so because they really want to scare young and naive women into settling for them.

I think it might be a bit of both. Some men find young women particularly attractive, but in case of MGTOWs (haha, that autocorrected to “my toes”) it’s hard to distinguish this from the power play. From what I’ve read, it’s like a comforting fairy story they tell themselves – women may not want to sleep with them now, but they’ll get their comeuppance one day, while the MGTOW will finally be rich and handsome in his middle age and get to pick his 20 year old female prize.

I also think it’s akin to when they forensically pick apart the appearance of famous women – saying they have weird ears or are too skinny or whatever. I find it hard to put into words but it’s like a strange sense of possession over the way women should look, alongside an attempt to pull them down in general. So it doesn’t matter that they get rejected, because they can sit in judgement and be the arbiter of female attractiveness.

Lainy
Lainy
1 year ago

I’m going to be turning 22 here in a few months. Side note I am older then my husband by 6 months, and yet people still assume I am 16 all the time. There has never been a time except when attending college classes does anyone assume I am a legal adult. My husband on the other hand, looks much older then 21, in fact there have been people that give him dirty looks when he kisses me in public or things like that. One time an old lady once caught him trying to squeeze my ass while we were walking down a street a night and she went off on him. In his defense neither of us saw her, she was kind of lerking in this like doorway to smoke a cigerate and she thought this was an adult man assualting or grooming a underage girl. We both thought we were alone on this street. Might just be me but I think men tend to start aging faster then women actually.

Pie
Pie
1 year ago

@epronovost

I think the mythical “wall” is a clear sign that MGTOW are skewing pretty damn young. As most men age, their taste when it comes to women usually change with it and they gain interest in older women, especially if they got style and style most often requires experience.

That seems like a weird conclusion to make, given that the alternative is that MGTOW skew old but like crafting complex justifications for why they avoid adult women (totally not because they have no tolerance for aggrieved, entitled, creepy manbaby bullshit; they’re just post wall!) and instead fantasize about physically and emotionally immature girls instead.

I mean, there’s no shortage of evidence on this very blog, right?

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
1 year ago

His next question is going to be “Where does the moon go when I stop looking out the window?”

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Kat

Okay, guy with not much social life, I’ll help you out with your question. When a woman turns 26 she drops dead. That’s because living in this world without constant male validation is just too hard. And that’s why you don’t see any woman older than 25 anywhere, including Instagram.

That finally answers the question of why there are no lesbians past 30: there are no women past 25, period.

@epronovost
I don’t think that’s evidence MGTOWs are young, lots of young men are into older women. It seems more like evidence they’re just self centered misogynists who think their taste applies universally.

@Talonknife

TBH, I think men generally age worse than women. I’m 21 and already look like I’m in my 40s.

Though everyone is a bit different, I would agree for a few reasons. First, men seem more likely to experience age related issues like balding because testosterone. Second, men are less likely to use cosmetics and/or plastic surgery to enhance their appearance. Third, society doesn’t place much weight upon a man’s appearance so men aren’t pressured to attempt to look good in old age.

This isn’t of course universal, there are older men who do look good, but in general these seem true.

@Buttercup
Object permanence is a lot to expect from the MGTOW set.

OT: This is one of the best examples of white male fragility I’ve seen lately:
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/watch-white-man-has-a-13-minute-meltdown-over-coffee-shops-black-lives-matter-sign/

Cats In Shiny Hats
Cats In Shiny Hats
1 year ago

I am forty this year and finally look like I’m in my thirties. I look older than my Someone, even though he’s older…and he’s okay with that. He’s always telling me I’m pretty, and sexy, and beautiful.

When I was in my early twenties I weighed under a hundred pounds and looked like I was starving, because I was anorexic. I’m much better looking fifteen years “post wall”.

Shadowplay
1 year ago

My partner deliberately let her hair go grey – otherwise she still looks late 20s – as she got a wee bit tired of getting bullshit from colleagues younger than our youngest.

Can’t say I miss mucking about with hair dyes all that much. Those were always traumatic experiences. 😛

Nanny Oggs Bosom
Nanny Oggs Bosom
1 year ago

Two days ago I turned 37, I have only just got an Instagram account (about two months ago), and I have only just realised and accepted that I’m probably not a woman.

In MGTOW reality these things must be related.

In the real world, I got my Insta to share book and embroidery love and to keep in touch with certain people since I deleted my Facebook, and the whole ‘not being a woman’ thing is something I’ve been wrestling with for 30 years, it just took me a while to figure things out (I blame being autistic for that – alexithymia and trying to work out what’s ‘autistic questioning social stereotypes, conventions and impositions’, and what’s ‘me’ is really hard at times). I rarely take selfies, because although my home-haircut bob is fabulous, I don’t like my double chins. I have body image issues. I don’t care whether my pictures of books and crafting gets likes, it’s nice but not essential, I’m more interesting in keeping up with my friends’ adventures, things I’ve missed since I deleted my Facebook account. I happen to like pictures of clouds, plants and cats.

SO, MGTOW, this AFAB person who you would probably insist is a woman, way past ‘the wall’ has shown you are wrong, purely by existing. Get a social life, mate, it might help you understand the propaganda doesn’t equal reality.

sarah_kay_gee
sarah_kay_gee
1 year ago

Have any of these ding-dongs ever actually been on Instagram? They act like it ONLY exists, at least for women, as a selfie vehicle. There is an endless variety of categories on Instagram; to pull just three examples from my follows: people fixing up old farm properties, waves that kind of look like people, and the pomeranian owned by that huge Icelandic guy who played The Mountain on Game of Thrones. My own photos mostly consist of desserts I’ve baked, my dog, my fountain pen/ink collection, old tombstones/mausoleums, and weird things I find in antique stores. I only post selfies when I change my hairstyle.

And my brother’s biggest crush is Helen Mirren, who is 74.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

My favorite category on Instagram is the “weird musical instruments and modifications” category (for example, Kevin Monn) because I’m interested in unique musical experiments.

As for Helen Mirren, she’s also a great actress. I enjoyed her performance in The Woman In Gold.

Paireon
Paireon
1 year ago

@Robert Haynie – LOL, wanted to talk about this. And given many manospherians and alt-righters’ sometimes fetishistic obsession with Japan, I sincerely doubt it’s any kind of coincidence at all.

As for age-related appearances, I’m a now 41 cishet male, but I have such a baby face (and a full head of barely-graying hair) that people regularly think me 10-15 years younger; I was mistaken for 23 last fall when I was 40. Make of this what you will.

Oh yeah, got an Instagram account this year but I barely use it at all. Maybe due to social media glut.

Joekster
Joekster
1 year ago

@ Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation- I’m late to the party, and apologies if your question was tongue in cheek, but the superbowl halftime show was done by J lo and shakira- and J lo was the one using a stripper pole, in reference to one of her early films, I believe. I was impressed at the moves both women pulled, and highly amused by the pearl clutching from conservatives.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pILCn6VO_RU

I think my favorite prt was where J lo flips around her Stars and Stripe cloak to show the Peurto Rican flag side- USians need to be reminded occasionally that Peurto Rico is definitely part of the US.

Allandrel
Allandrel
1 year ago

I wonder how these guys explain the popularity of MILF porn? They probably insist that it is a hoax perpetuated by Da Jooz to steal their vital essence.

As for Instagram, every one that I subscribe to is pictures of animals, Lego MOCs, and Warhammer miniatures.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

I’m a 52 year old bloke, and my Instagram has twenty eight followers! It’s a tough responsibility being a social influencer. I refuse to monetise it though; I don’t want all those potential sponsors compromising my independence.

https://www.instagram.com/alan_robertshaw/

Clever4agirl
Clever4agirl
1 year ago

@alan 29, followers.

I’ll be 40 in the fall, I switched from selfies to mostly gardening and cats bc gross dudes wouldn’t leave my old, post-wall fat ass alone.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Allandrel
I would guess they feel the same way as they do about anal porn: they think it’s white genocide by Jews. If pressed, I’m sure their justification would be something about how older women are less likely to get pregnant than their younger counterparts (nevermind that most “MILFs” in porn are in their late 20s or 30s i.e. not that old) and they’d say it “indoctrinates” men to want sex with older women.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

@ clever4agirl

Hey; lovely to see you again; missed you!

And thank you for that. Kim Karadashian must be panicking now!

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 year ago

Obligatory summary of my sexual history: Virgin until 26, didn’t really start “slutting around” until my 30s, even now in my 40s I have no issue finding partners, to the point where I can be kind of lazy about it… and the only reason why I don’t have a very active sex life right now is because of the damn virus. Okay, admittedly it helps that I’m fairly attractive and in good shape (though not to the point where someone would mistake me for a model or anything), and was rather overweight in my teens and early 20s. If my life had been a planned, deliberate defiance of that nonsense, it would be hard to have done it better.

On one hand, I’m grateful that my age generally acts as a manosperian repellent. On the other hand, it probably *would* be better if they bothered me rather than someone much younger and less experienced with dealing with the likes of them. On third hand, it would be better still if they bothered no one at all.

Perry
Perry
1 year ago

Not directly related to the point of the post, but one thing I find strange is the implication that social media use/attention is the domain of women.

It would be interesting if someone did an analysis of Instagram to find out the relative quantity and size of male and female accounts. While it’s certainly plausible that women have a greater presence, there are definitely a ton of men on there, many of them sex symbols. There are also of course women who aren’t there in a sexual capacity.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 year ago

AMAB and another 40-who-looks-20-something here. Maybe a dozen actually active followers.

@Allandrel:

As for Instagram, every one that I subscribe to is pictures of animals, Lego MOCs, and Warhammer miniatures.

MOCs?

@Snowberry:

… and the only reason why I don’t have a very active sex life right now is because of the damn virus.

Right now I’d settle for a cheeseburger. I haven’t had one since late February! No affordable food place here seems to have bothered to set up patio tables; it’s all still drive-through and take-out only, which is completely and utterly useless to anyone who doesn’t own a car.

Karalora
Karalora
1 year ago

MOCs?

Original designs, as opposed to models built according to published instructions. It stands for My Original Creation.

Shadowplay
1 year ago

Off topic – while I trust polls about as much as I trust tabasco as a spermicide, this did cheer me up some:

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/xg8wya/trumps-poll-numbers-are-so-bad-the-gop-is-starting-to-panic-about-a-wipeout

@Surplus – it’s really missing chocolate trifle for me. Used to buy one as a reward for doing the supermarket run every couple weeks. Not had one in months now. Hell, car doesn’t even start, battery is totally flat.

rv97
rv97
1 year ago

If these maggots knew about this cis lesbian on Reddit who makes $100k doing sex work online I bet they’d lose their minds.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Perry

one thing I find strange is the implication that social media use/attention is the domain of women.

I think this is related to the stereotype that women are more phone addicted, which in turn is from the stereotype that women talk more than men. I don’t think either of those are true, but they are popular stereotypes.

@Shadowplay
I’m still nervous, but let’s hope the polls are accurate. We need Trump to lose by a landslide, and it would be great to have the Senate too.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

It’s also that selfies = vanity in the minds of a lot of people. Therefore, social media is a woman thing because vanity is a woman thing.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

selfies = vanity

The Bar Council here have introduced a new app; so you can just flash your phone and by-pass security going into court. To set it up you have to upload a photo. Rather than wait for someone competent to call round I decided I could take one myself. After about 43 attempts I got one that looked vaguely presentable. I logged onto the relevant webpage to upload the pic. I accidentally though uploaded one of the terrible ones. But before I could cancel and replace I got an auto-generated email saying “You’re all set up”. So now my pass looks like I’m coming to rob the place.

I wish I could have had a nice vain one.

Allandrel
Allandrel
1 year ago

Worries of an electoral wipeout are just one more reason for Republicans to double down on election rigging or even support Trump’s inevitable attempt to prevent the election entirely.