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Trans women who get breast implants are “erasing flat-chested women,” Gender Critical Redditor charges

I don’t think it’s trans women who are making small-breasted cis women feel bad about their boobs

By David Futrelle

So-called “Gender Critical feminists” — aka. TERFs — are constantly coming up with new excuses to be mad at trans women. The most ingenious effort I’ve seen of late comes from a Gender Crit Redditor who has managed to convince herself that she’s being oppressed — and “erased” — by trans women getting breast implants.

“Top surgery erases women with small breasts,” Brrrontosaurus declares in a rant recently posted to the Gender Crit subreddit that so far has gotten well over 200 upvotes.

If you’re having trouble parsing that declaration — as I did at first —
Brrrontosaurus explains, sort of, what she meant:

[T]he idea that if you “identify as a woman” you need breasts in order for your body to align with that feeling implies that flat chested women are somehow less valid [as] women.

Well, not really, not any more than any cis woman getting breast implants or reconstructive surgery does. Are women — cis or trans — who grow their hair long “erasing” short-haired women? Are women who wear heels and makeup thereby declaring that women who wear neither are really men?

Somehow Brrrontosaurus never gets around to asking these sorts of questions, nor does she stop to wonder why it’s only trans women who get her “so pissed off” (as she puts it) for getting implants.

Female beauty standards are a large and complicated issue, but they weren’t created by trans women — and generally speaking it doesn’t seem terribly feminist to rage at women (cis or trans) for conforming in various ways to conventional ideas of femininity (or, in many cases, twisting them around into something empowering).

Gender critical women know this, of course, and will defend their own use of lipstick and other accoutrements of femininity — even if they often feel uneasy about it. But when it comes to trans women getting implants — or wearing lipstick, for that matter — they have no sympathy.

Trans women didn’t invent the idea that small breasts are somehow inferior or unfeminine; they’re subject to the same pressures to conform to beauty standards as cis women, thought for them the stakes are higher.

And of course the Gender Crits know this as well. The thread inspired by Brrrontosaurus is full of stories from small-breasted women describing how they were teased and bullied over their “mosquito bites” when they were teenagers.

“I was crying a lot when all of my friends in middle school were developing breasts,” reports someone called popttartopine.

I felt so disgusting and unlovable because I learned early that boys liked breasts and that you had to look a certain way to be a woman, it was horrible, I wanted to kill myself because I wasn’t like the other girls and students were talking about me and laughing, calling my breast”raisin” or “mosquito bites”.

Carmine-Warrior also had issues with bullies:

[W]hen I was growing up, I was consistently bullied by boys and girls about my small size. It started at 11 when the boys would walk up to me and ask, “Why is your chest as flat as your back??” I definitely had thoughts over the years about if augmentation would make my life easier even though I am accepting and satisfied now.

Terf_fret had a similar story:

I had no breast growth as a teen and it distressed me so much. I would literally dream of growing breasts. I spent so much effort trying to find the perfect padded bra that wouldn’t show through my clothes because I didn’t want to be harassed. Isn’t it crazy?? My distress came 100% from patriarchal messages.

None of those telling these stories report ever being bullied about their small breasts by trans women; the culprits are school bullies and the occasional rude lingerie saleswoman. But the Gender Crits take the rage they clearly and justifiably still feel about the bullying they endured (and the patriarchy itself) and direct it at trans women instead. And so the bullied become the bullies, attacking trans women regardless of whether they’re trying to live up to beauty standards or defying them.

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Lisa
Lisa
5 months ago

Gender Crits: ‘Trans women are stealing my oxygen by breathing’….

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

One would think if they had the tiniest shred of compassion they’d be able to empathize with trans* women. It seems a lot of these women have struggled with the way society disrespects small breasted women and maybe they could understand that trans* women deal with the same disrespect.

Somehow, the people who are always arguing that trans* people reinforce stereotypes like this are the same ones insisting that we must “live in gender” (read: be gender conforming in every way) to get treatment. It’s a no win situation.

Are women — cis or trans — who grow their hair long “erasing” short-haired women?

Short haired ladies, I am sorry if I have inadvertently been erasing you. I fully support other people having short hair, I just like growing my own hair long. It makes me feel less dysphoric and makes me feel better about myself.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Ugh. Even though I have huge boobs now, I was a late bloomer and pretty flat until age 15. So, I’ve experienced the teasing and the feeling like I’m never going to get womanly curves. You know what? I still am not going to begrudge trans women for doing what they need to do to get the boobs that’ll make them feel comfortable with their bodies. What the fuck does people teasing you about your body have to do with trans women getting top surgery?

Also, you can bet your ass that cis women who developed larger breasts early got teased too. It’s almost like there’s no correct way to have a female body under patriarchy. Taking out your insecurities on trans women isn’t going to do a single thing about that, ffs.

Crip Dyke
5 months ago

Also, you can bet your ass that cis women who developed larger breasts early got teased too. It’s almost like there’s no correct way to have a female body under patriarchy. Taking out your insecurities on trans women isn’t going to do a single thing about that, ffs.

All of this, but especially the bold bits.

It’s also just plain anti-feminist to blame the victim. Get a fucking analysis, TERFs.

Jarred H
5 months ago

For some reason I’m reminded of listening to various trans women talk about how the ways in which they are allowed/required to perform femininity in order to prove they were “valid” was often much more narrowly defined than it was for cis women. I feel like this might factor into this particular topic in ways I’m not qualified to comment on.

Bakunin
Bakunin
5 months ago

More cis women get “top surgery” than trans women. (Scare quotes cause I never hear cis women have it called that. They just get boob jobs or breast augmentation. When/if we do it we get a weird term)

Snowberry
Snowberry
5 months ago

I don’t know about other countries, but I’ve found it a bit odd that the only truly legal forms of body restructuring (I’m using that term instead of “modification” because I’m specifically excluding purely surface things like tattooing and piercing) are “conventional beauty standards” and “beach ball boobs”.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Bakunin

More cis women get “top surgery” than trans women.

And I don’t hear TERFs going after them (though I wouldn’t put it past them). If you ask me, people should be allowed to get their bodies modified however they want, as that’s the definition of bodily autonomy. This whole thing sounds vaguely reminiscent of that post a while ago where MGTOWs were complaining about cis women appearing to have bigger breasts than they naturally did by using special bras or padding.

Scare quotes cause I never hear cis women have it called that. They just get boob jobs or breast augmentation. When/if we do it we get a weird term

I‘ve mostly heard the term “top surgery” referring to trans* masc folx getting mastectomies. I can see how it could also apply to trans* women getting breast augmentation, but it still seems odd when there already are terms used for cis women.

@Snowberry
AFAIK in the US it’s legal to get subdermal implants in areas other than breasts/butts (for example, some people have gotten horns on their heads), it’s just not common. A few people (notably Zoë Quinn) have also gotten RFID implants.

otrame
otrame
5 months ago

Being harassed for having small breasts can be damaging. It’s not fair to load that sort of pressure on a kid. It can be very hard to get past it.

But some people do. I had a friend who was completely flat-chested except for her nipples, which were quite large. easily aroused and poked out quite a bit. She had decided by the time I met her, at 17, that anyone so shallow as to worry about how big breasts were didn’t deserve her time and attention. She proved that being flat-chested didn’t keep you from using those breasts for what nature intended. In fact, when her baby was about 2 months old, a friend had a baby but was too ill to nurse her at first, so my friend acted as wet nurse for several months, feeding both babies with her flat breasts.

Also? If you have large breasts as a young woman, you get harassed, too. It’s different harassment, but trust me, it’s harassment. It doesn’t feel better because the harassment is people liking the size of your breasts. it’s scary and humiliating.

As for trans women wanting good-sized breasts, do you really blame them?

ETA:

I want to make it plain that my friend was rather unique and that having trouble getting over the harassment and bullying doesn’t make you less of a person. We all have things we can’t get over easily and trust me, my friend had her share, just not about boobs.

Snowberry
Snowberry
5 months ago

@Naglfar: It’s not illegal to have those things, yeah. But if cosmetic surgeons are doing horn implants without losing their licenses, and it’s no longer exclusively being done by rogue medical practitioners working underground, then that’s news to me.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ snowberry

There was some controversy here back in 2000 when it was revealed a surgeon had carried out amputations on patients with apotemnophilia (had to google that).

There were queries about the ethics of such procedures; but no-one seemed to question the legality. The principle here being it’s generally for doctors to decide what’s medically necessary, not the courts.

This week the trust announced a ban on further amputations after a report from its ethics subcommittee. Mr Smith had obtained the agreement of the then chief executive and medical director, both of whom have since changed jobs, before performing the two operations.

He also discussed the procedure with his defence body and with the ethics committee of the General Medical Council. The patients, who had failed to respond to conventional treatment, were assessed and counselled beforehand by psychiatrists and a psychologist.

The trust’s chairman, Ian Mullen, said such operations were not ruled out for the future, but a strict procedure would have to be followed.

Snowberry
Snowberry
5 months ago

… Mostly off topic, but do you know what I think would be really great? Spinal augmentation. Make spines near unbreakable, more flexible, maybe add some prominent spinal ridges for those who are into that (I would be, I find it weirdly sexy), and maybe better at supporting more weight up top if that’s reasonable in terms of physics (not actually certain) and someone’s into that as well. Hell, replacing the whole thing with something lighter than bone could maybe change the center of balance just enough could make it easier to float on one’s back, reducing drownings (not sure about that either). While we’re at it maybe put minor brain function augmentations there instead of in the skull… I’m on a bit of a sci-fi kick right now I guess.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ snowberry

maybe add some prominent spinal ridges

I’ve always thought I’d rock a sagittal crest. I do have a bit of a one. Maybe everyone does and it’s just more obvious on me because I shave my head?

But something like this would suit me nicely. It’s like a permanent mohawk.

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put minor brain function augmentations there

As I’m sure you know it appears we do process a few things in our spine. The flinch from hot reflex I believe is one. And don’t some other animals have nerve clusters that act as mini brains? Something about brontosauruses?

For things where timing isn’t urgent then the spine would be a pretty good place for ancillary cognition/info storage.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
5 months ago

“Top surgery erases women with small breasts.”

Do my 100 percent organic, completely natural average-size breasts erase women with small breasts?

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
5 months ago

Didn’t we just hear that trans women are single-handedly responsible for cramming flat-chested representation into female video game characters?

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
5 months ago

@Lumipuna
Clearly transwomen are the heads of the Titty Committee.

Snowberry
Snowberry
5 months ago

Oops, I goofed. You want the back to be slightly heavier, not lighter, to help insure that it stays downward in water, but that wouldn’t help much with not drowning unless you also lightened the front a little, or just did that instead. I was thinking average density reduction = more floaty and kind of jumped into that without fully thinking it through.

@Alan Robertshaw:

I’ve always thought I’d rock a sagittal crest.

Depending on the design of the crest, one could look like a Next-Generation era Klingon. That would be something to see. or someone could design one in such a way to make it easy and comfortable to attach head decorations to it that wouldn’t work well on a regular head. Lots of possibilities there.

And don’t some other animals have nerve clusters that act as mini brains? Something about brontosauruses?

Yes, some kinds of ornisthrichian dinos had that, but I was mostly thinking frogs, which offload their most basic reflexes and psychosomatic functions to their spinal cords. They can survive and sort-but-not-really of function for weeks without a brain.

At the very minimum, one could probably dump most of the physical-oriented rote memory (I’m blanking on the technical term, but I’m not referring to muscle memory) down there, making it slightly faster to access in some cases, possibly improving reflexes (?) while freeing up brain space for more intellectual uses. With the caveat that, assuming spines are easily reparable by that point, if your harder-to-break augmented spine breaks anyway, you’ll have more skills to relearn than if a natural one broke. Or… depending on how it works, one could maybe add a port and make occasional backups just in case, though if enough people are doing that it comes with the risk of bodyjacking.

Though getting it slightly back on topic, I wonder if there’s any research going on with the concept of ultra-lightweight breast/body implants. That would obviate the need for spine and/or back enhancement in the case of the larger-sized ones, and allow people to be more creative with their appearance in general without having to deal with weight issues. Again, incidentally reducing average body density could help with reducing drownings, depending on how they shift the center of gravity. Not “center of balance”, which was another case of slight oopsy above.

NautaliaC
NautaliaC
5 months ago

“Look at all these trans* women with these breast augmentations that I totally see every single day and are a fair portion of them, probably”
– TERF

In reality, many of us don’t have the money, opportunity, health, time to recover or in general, or a myriad of other factors that prevent us from changing our bodies to the way we want. It would be nice to look exactly the way we’d like with a flick of a finger, though I think we can all assume that’s a universal desire not limited to just us trans* folk.

This is just hatred, plain and simple. It’s the same kind of churlish attitude that comes from the rando incel that ‘remembers that time a mean girl called him smelly’ and stoked that bitterness, looking for reasons to hate large swathes of people with no intent on growing beyond the negative experience.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
5 months ago

Snowberry:

Though getting it slightly back on topic, I wonder if there’s any research going on with the concept of ultra-lightweight breast/body implants. That would obviate the need for spine and/or back enhancement in the case of the larger-sized ones, and allow people to be more creative with their appearance in general without having to deal with weight issues. Again, incidentally reducing average body density could help with reducing drownings, depending on how they shift the center of gravity. Not “center of balance”, which was another case of slight oopsy above.

Presumably, having air-filled implants in both your breasts and braincase would help both float the body and orient it face up. Wood would also be lighter than water.

(I’m reminded of a certain comical line in Finnish literature, which involves a tough guy talking random shit, parodying biblical language: “Blessed are the blockheads, for they shall not drown”)

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 months ago

Note that, as far as I can tell, flat chests are considered attractive by a lot of people, but saying that is widely reproved by a mix of toxic masculinity and fear of looking like a pedophile.

Generally speaking, beauty standards seem significantly more used for bullying and standard masculinity signaling than for choosing mates. Which explain why in my experience there is much more women who are bullied on their appareance but still find love than women who are considered okay but don’t find love.

Snowberry
Snowberry
5 months ago

…Well, that was a bust (pun intended). Some research and quick calculations suggests that while there are some significant physical benefits to lightweight implants, the difference in average body density would be trivial unless they were excessively large and filled with something like aerogel… and you could get similar results just by gaining whole a lot of body fat. There might still be a center-of-gravity thing, but that would take too much work to figure out.

Note that conventional implants have a density of anywhere from 0.99-1.08, breast tissue has a density of 0.97, and lightweight implants (invented in 2014) have a density of around 0.75 (specific figures were hard to find), if anyone’s curious. I wasn’t able to find any indication of current research towards even lighter designs, but I didn’t spend much time looking.

Also, I will now abandon this line of thinking to avoid derailing the conversation any further and nerd-sniping myself, so… who cares if it undermines the basis of the gender-crits’ identity politics, bodily self-determination for everyone!

Ginger
Ginger
5 months ago

Here in the US, as long as you are a legally competent adult, give your informed consent, and have the money to pay, you can get any plastic surgery you want. Surgeons in a capitalist for-profit fee-for-service system simply see themselves making money by satisfying their customers. As long as your desired procedure is surgically feasible, you can find someone to do it if you look hard enough.

I saw a TV documentary a while ago about incels and plastic surgery. Apparently a lot of European incels have difficulty obtaining multiple surgeries because many European surgeons realize these guys have seriously unhealthy body image issues and refuse to operate. So these incels come to the US for surgery for the reasons listed above.

The program followed a couple incels coming to the US. One was from the Netherlands; this young man lived with his parents who were rather wealthy. After a few surgeries in Europe, he couldn’t find a surgeon because this guy is obviously screwed up. So he goes to an Iowa surgeon who is well-known in the incel world as someone who will perform any surgery as long as he is paid.

Dutch guy eventually has about 25 plastic surgeries in total, most of which by the Iowa doctor. Dutch guy can afford multiple trips to the US, multiple hotel stays, and of course all the procedures and aftercare. The procedures were ridiculous – getting a chin implant, then having it removed a few months later, then a nose job, then another nose job, facelifts, eyelifts – all of which he claimed would make him into a Chad. The program showed his before photo. Prior to his self-mutilations he was an average-looking guy; nothing was wrong with his appearance. However, his after photos were terrible. He no longer looked like a real person.

The program interviewed the Iowa surgeon about why he repeatedly operated on Dutch guy. Didn’t doc realize that the incel is mentally unhealthy, and that he might have some body dysmorphia? Iowa doc said that he doesn’t judge any of his patients and doesn’t really care why they want these surgeries. His job is providing a service, period.

So these gender crits complain about trans people getting plastic surgery, but not incels?

Smh

kiva
kiva
5 months ago

i wonder whether i, a trans woman with natural and fairly large breasts, am also erasing small breasted cis women. hmmmm.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
5 months ago

I sarcastically like the fact that if you don’t have breasts, you are automatically flat-chested, like bodies don’t come in all shapes and so on. That and the apparent interchangeability of “small breasts” and “flat-chested”.

@Ginger

So these gender crits complain about trans people getting plastic surgery, but not incels?

There are also cis women who have a lot of plastic surgery. I suppose that wouldn’t chime with the “trans* women are the worst ever” narrative.

Thoug, in the name of equal-opportunity bigotry, I’ve also seen a lot of transphobes go on and on about how binding your chest will just about kill you because it’s so horrible and binders are modern-day corsets (because apparently corsets no longer exist?) that are trying to erase and/or modify the female body out of existence, so I guess you can’t win.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw
You could get some transdermal steel implants for a crest-like effect, though I feel like that might make shaving a bit harder and would make hat shopping much harder.
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And don’t some other animals have nerve clusters that act as mini brains? Something about brontosauruses?

IIRC the secondary brain thing was disproven, we used to think that but not anymore.

@Snowberry
One difficulty with replacing the spine would be somehow removing the vertebrae without damaging the spinal cord itself, seeing as we don’t have the level of cybernetic technology to replace that. Any replacement would also need to be flexible enough to allow people to bend it like a natural spine but firm enough to be able to stand still. For now, it’s probably best to stick with what we’ve got.

@Ginger

So these gender crits complain about trans people getting plastic surgery, but not incels?

Probably because incels are cis and TERFs could find a lot of common ground with them.

@Masse_mysteria

binders are modern-day corsets (because apparently corsets no longer exist?)

This also shows that TERFs don’t know much about corsets. Most corsets are made to compress the waist, not the breasts (note: I am not an expert in corsetry, please correct me if I’m leaving anything out).

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
5 months ago

I suspect the more dedicated transphobes on Reddit and elsewhere are consciously working to build the double narrative that

“trans women are artificial constructs performing stereotypic femininity more eagerly than actual women, to the detriment of women’s liberation”

and

“trans women look distinctly, unavoidably masculine and often don’t even try that hard to be convincing as women, inasmuch it would be possible”

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 months ago

It’s almost like cis women and trans women are all reacting to the same performative beauty standards in contemporary society. I guess trans women who wear makeup are erasing cis women who don’t? But cis women also commonly wear makeup. Probably a lot of TERFs do. So maybe that’s why they don’t use that as an example.

You know what would be truly radical feminism? Affirming that all women (and there’s no reason to exclude trans women from this) are valuable human beings regardless of how they look. Packed into this is a simultaneous affirmation that small-breasted women are valuable people, and large-breasted women are also valuable people. That your choices are valid, whether you’ve chosen to have surgery or not. That you shouldn’t feel obligated to have surgery, but if you make that choice, you did it for reasons that felt valid to you and that should be acknowledged.

Radical feminists have mostly made peace with the makeup question (mostly) and they need to make peace with the surgery question, too.

re: too much surgery

There’s a subreddit dedicated to goggling at people (mostly women of course) who have gone overboard with surgery. It’s allegedly focused on botched surgeries, but it’s clear that most of the surgeries featured went exactly how the recipient wanted, but that the recipient wanted something that slingshots them way beyond conventional beauty standards. Think huuuuuuuge lips full of filler, or giant breast or butt implants. This subreddit used to feature on the “popular” feed a lot, but I reckon someone complained and reddit removed it, because I haven’t seen it for a while. It’s pretty grotesque, the way they feel entitled to comment on other people’s bodies.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@PoM
Re: going overboard
I think people should have the right to have extreme body modifications if they want (including extremely large breast/butt implants), but I think it’s wrong to mock and give unsolicited opinions on people’s bodies, as a general rule.

Sheila Crosby
5 months ago

I have a bunch of thoughts.

1) I recently saw a TERF on Twitter who apparently believed that transwomen’s breasts were entirely silicone, not the normal result of hormones. She was quite sure a transwoman couldn’t breastfeed because DNA. Another TERF living down to the TERF science standard. So maybe they’re assuming that all transwomens breasts are the result of surgery?

[For those who aren’t sciencey*: your DNA doesn’t change at puberty. My cis-woman breasts and those of my transwomen friends’ are the result of hormones. I’ve heard of women who are havng trouble breastfeeding getting hormone injections (prolactin was it?) and without being an expert I’d have thought it more likely than not that it would work for transwomen too.]
*Not being sciencey is fine, but I do think you should check facts before you attack people.

2) A woman’s healthcare is a matter for her and her doctor and everyone else should BUTT OUT. I wonder what percentage of people complaining about transwomen’s breasts agree with the above when it’s about abortion?

3) Some of us got bullied for having big breasts. And assaulted.

4) Transwomen did not create the current beauty standards and they get the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” treatment even worse.

5) When are we going to get retractable breasts? Crank them out for sexy fun times and wind them back in for professional setting, sport etc.

6) Who the hell decided that breasts aren’t professional?

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
5 months ago

Early developers with big breasts got made fun of too. It’s not fun to be woman shaped when everyone else is still kid shaped, and it’s also not fun to have to wear a bra before anyone or dread phy ed because now running means flopping, because sports bras aren’t really a thing yet.

I still envy women with small chests, and most of my RP characters are small-chested.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Sheila Crosby

I recently saw a TERF on Twitter who apparently believed that transwomen’s breasts were entirely silicone, not the normal result of hormones.

I’ve seen that, and I’ve also seen TERFs say that if a trans* woman produces milk it would be poisonous to babies.

I’d have thought it more likely than not that it would work for transwomen too.

There are a few cases in the last few years, although the women did need exogenous medication to induce it. Cis men can breastfeed as well if it’s induced (although it occasionally occurs naturally at random, it’s rare), but don’t produce much milk because they don’t have as much breast development.
I’d like to lactate one day. It would be very gender-affirming to produce milk.

A woman’s healthcare is a matter for her and her doctor and everyone else should BUTT OUT. I wonder what percentage of people complaining about transwomen’s breasts agree with the above when it’s about abortion?

I don’t know how TERFs feel about abortion, but I do know that a bunch of them protested Planned Parenthood because of informed consent HRT being available from them. So it’s possible that at least some are anti-abortion or at least don’t see abortion access as being as important as hurting trans* people.

When are we going to get retractable breasts? Crank them out for sexy fun times and wind them back in for professional setting, sport etc.

If this were real, that would be awesome. ObSidJag mentioned something like this as part of a comedy routine she was describing in a previous thread.

One sort of related breast question: Do big breasts produce more milk?

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 months ago

One sort of related breast question: Do big breasts produce more milk?

Potentially? Breast milk is produced by glandular tissue, while most breast mass is fatty tissue. So a large breast might have more glandular tissue and produce more milk. It’s common for breasts to enlarge during the last stages of pregnancy as the glandular tissue expands.

But it’s also possible for a smaller breast to have more glandular tissue than fatty tissue and produce a ton of milk despite not having the same kind of total mass. So it’s possible to go either way.

Sheila Crosby
5 months ago

It’s my non-expert understanding that big breasts don’t usualy produce more milk, but it can be harder for baby to latch on and still breathe.

One famously big-boobed British comedian said she ocassionally had to ask perfect strangers in the bathrooms of motorway service stations, “Would you mind holding this nipple for a second while I get him latched on?”

Lucky me, I could take a long maternity leave so breastfeeding almost always happened at home.

Sheila Crosby
5 months ago

It’s my non-expert understanding that big breasts don’t usualy produce more milk, but it can be harder for baby to latch on and still breathe.

One famously big-boobed British comedian said she ocassionally had to ask perfect strangers in the bathrooms of motorway service stations, “Would you mind holding this nipple for a second while I get him latched on?”

Lucky me, I could take a long maternity leave so breastfeeding almost always happened at home.

@Naglfar Poisonous to babies? I’m 99.9% sure that any human milk is human milk.
I hope you do get the chance to lactate. There were some bad moments when he was teething but mostly it was precious cuddle time, plus way more convenient than messing about with bottles. Definitely right for us. Of course my memories are a bit hazy by now since my “baby” is now 6ft 3″ tall.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
5 months ago

AFAIK most mammals produce substantial amounts of milk (in proportion to their body size) with rather inconspicuous mammaries (esp. before glandular swelling). This applies to the closest human relatives, while human breasts tend to have varying amounts of “extra” fat tissue.

Apparently, women with unusually mall breasts can produce at least typical amounts of milk – sufficient to feed one child? Though I don’t know if they could produce unusually large amounts of milk? OTOH modern dairy cows, which are bred to produce humongous amounts of milk, seem to have much larger udders than wild cattle. They probably need that space just for the glandular tissue.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Lumipuna

OTOH modern dairy cows, which are bred to produce humongous amounts of milk, seem to have much larger udders than wild cattle. They probably need that space just for the glandular tissue.

A difference is that the cows are selectively bred to produce more milk. To the best of my knowledge this has never occurred in humans (as it would be horribly unethical), although it is probably a result of sexual selection that humans are the only mammals with enlarged breasts when not lactating or pregnant.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ lumipuna

modern dairy cows, which are bred to produce humongous amounts of milk, seem to have much larger udders than wild cattle.

It’s a mix of selective breeding but mainly hormone supplementation. For dairy farming you want as much of the cow as possible devoted to milk production. Calories used to maintain the rest of the cow are just wasted expenditure. This article explains it well if you can track down a hard copy.

Lyons DT, Freeman AE and Kuck AL. 1991. Genetics of health traits in Holstein cattle. Journal of Dairy Science 74 (3): 1092-100

Farmed cows produce up to 12 times the amount of milk than their unmodified sisters.

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Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw, Lumipuna
Here’s a link to the article.
IIRC farmers did a similar thing to egg-laying hens to make them lay more eggs.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ naglfar

Ah thank you ever so much for that! Your google-fu is strong! (and certainly better than mine).

There is a suggestion of a link between cattle hormone supplementation and early menarche; but whether that also leads to increased breast size is still undetermined.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3038976/

Monsanto went to great lengths to keep this quiet; but they lost an ag-gag court case.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/monsanto-forced-fox-tv-to_b_186428?

As it happens their products are banned in the EU. One of our post Brexit concerns is that the UK will have to allow their use as part of any UK-US trade deal.

IIRC farmers did a similar thing to egg-laying hens to make them lay more eggs.

Indeed. The Red Jungle Fowl, from which all domestic hens are bred, lays around 12 eggs per year. Farmed hens produce around 300. Again that’s a mix of selective breeding and supplementation. They’re also given supplements to make egg yolks a more appealing colour.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
5 months ago

@Naglfar

This also shows that TERFs don’t know much about corsets. Most corsets are made to compress the waist, not the breasts (note: I am not an expert in corsetry, please correct me if I’m leaving anything out).

I also don’t know all of the things corsets have been used for, but AFAIK the argument about binders being the “modern day corset” was that it’s a garment meant to alter the shape of a woman’s body, and that in olden times, women had to wear corsets to get the desired shape for their body, and now they have to wear binders.

I know that early breast development can lead to kids (or their mothers) doing drastic things trying to hide said breasts, but I’ve never heard of anyone trying to get all the women to wear binders, and actual corsets still exist, so the comparison is just nonsensical.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Masse_mysteria

it’s a garment meant to alter the shape of a woman’s body, and that in olden times, women had to wear corsets to get the desired shape for their body, and now they have to wear binders.

Although it would certainly be possible for cis women to use binders, the only people I know who use them are trans* men or AFAB non-binary folx. I see way more of the opposite: women’s bras being designed to increase display of breasts and cleavage rather than decrease them.

The main TERF objection to binders seems to be that they could help trans* mascs have less dysphoria and feel better about their bodies. Which is rather the parallel to how they don’t like breast implants that could make trans* femmes feel better.

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
5 months ago

It’s not fun to be woman shaped when everyone else is still kid shaped

Yup. My sister and I got attention from grown-ass men when we were far too young due to getting boobs early. And then we both got big ones, which led to bullying, harassment, and assault. I was groped by gangs of boys every single day of middle school. Every day. Consequently, I have never once enjoyed having my boobs touched in any way. They are a completely non-sexual body part to me.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
5 months ago

Naglfar:

A difference is that the cows are selectively bred to produce more milk … humans are the only mammals with enlarged breasts when not lactating or pregnant.

As I said, both humans and dairy cattle tend to have unusually large mammaries, but for different reasons. Cow udders are presumably more filled with swollen gland tissue (as opposed to fat), allowing more production per apparent size. Even then, is it possible to have super high production with small, er, udders? If it were, we’d likely select for cows with smaller udders for practical reasons.

Otrame wrote, on a friend:

She proved that being flat-chested didn’t keep you from using those breasts for what nature intended. In fact, when her baby was about 2 months old, a friend had a baby but was too ill to nurse her at first, so my friend acted as wet nurse for several months, feeding both babies with her flat breasts.

I’ve understood humans tend to also have mammary gland swelling during lactation, resulting in additional breast growth. Presumably this would be more noticeable if you have initially small breasts, with little fat but lots of gland tissue (a little like, er, the cows discussed above). That’s why I’m mildly curious about otrame’s anecdote – does it disprove my assumption?.

Alan:

It’s a mix of selective breeding but mainly hormone supplementation. For dairy farming you want as much of the cow as possible devoted to milk production.

I’m passingly familiar with Finnish dairy farming system and I’m pretty sure hormone supplements are not allowed here. A cow might still very well exceed 100 tons during lifetime or 10 tons in a peak year. (For human body size, that’d be about 1500-2000 kg per year.)

The limits are indeed metabolic – I know that even with humans, there are jokes about having to eat all the time when lactating.

Otrame
Otrame
5 months ago

@Lumipuna

My friend’s breasts did swell slightly during her pregnancy and stayed slightly larger while she nursed her baby. But even with that hormone-produced increase in mammary tissue she still had barely noticeable breasts. I’ve seen lots of men, even relatively slender men, with bigger breasts than my friend had even while nursing two babies.

Fact is, there is a lot of variation in how women’s breasts react to pregnancy and nursing. My already large breasts didn’t get bigger, but did get much firmer. My average-sized sister had to buy a bigger bra size during her pregnancy and then went back to her original size once the baby was weaned.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
5 months ago

Thanks for clarification, Otrame.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
5 months ago

@Naglfar

Although it would certainly be possible for cis women to use binders, the only people I know who use them are trans* men or AFAB non-binary folx.

From what I’ve heard, cis women use binders for cosplay or cross-dressing purposes.

The main TERF objection to binders seems to be that they could help trans* mascs have less dysphoria and feel better about their bodies.

It’s really counterproductive, too, especially as a health trolling thing. AFAIK, those horror stories about what damage binding can do to breasts are about people who’ve used improvised or otherwise unsafe methods. I feel like I’ve seen so many Internet discussions where women vow that they’d destroy any binder they find in their kid’s possession, like that’s going to stop anyone from binding if they want to.

Shadowplay
5 months ago

Although it would certainly be possible for cis women to use binders, the only people I know who use them are trans* men or AFAB non-binary folx.

Quite a number of my cis colleagues do – enough that the Army has a small arrangement with one of the manufacturers. They’re not trying to flatten completely, mind, but they want way more support and “get these bloody things out of the way, I’m trying to break his neck” than a sports bra gives.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Masse_mysteria

It’s really counterproductive, too, especially as a health trolling thing. AFAIK, those horror stories about what damage binding can do to breasts are about people who’ve used improvised or otherwise unsafe methods. I feel like I’ve seen so many Internet discussions where women vow that they’d destroy any binder they find in their kid’s possession, like that’s going to stop anyone from binding if they want to.

I recall one particularly awful GC post (I’m not going to dig it up again) where they relentlessly mocked a non-binary person who bound their breasts using something homemade and was injured in the process. I’ve seen similar fearmongering about hormones and puberty blockers, yet similarly when people aren’t given what they need medically they will seek out other means which may be less safe.

@Shadowplay
I didn’t know that women in the army used binders. Come to think of it, I hadn’t really thought about that.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
5 months ago

@Lumipuna:

Any moment now a flat-chested woman (cis or trans) will exist and thereby reverse the balance by erasing all the busty ones. Or is it only women known or suspected to be trans who have this power to bend everything to their own image?

@Snowberry:

and you could get similar results just by gaining whole a lot of body fat.

Lynne Cox ftw!

@Masse_Mysteria:

From what I’ve heard, cis women use binders for cosplay or cross-dressing purposes.

They’d probably be good for 1920s reenactors.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

I found some statistics estimating what percent of cis women have breast implants, and it looks like about 4% of women in the US do (though the article says this could be off by quite a bit, as it’s just a rough estimate from limited data). I did not find statistics for trans* women in particular. However, going off of the fact that about 0.6% of the population is trans*, if we assume that about 0.6% of women are trans* women, that means that even if every trans* woman in America were to get breast implants (which is obviously not the case), there would still be over 6 times as many cis women with implants.

Another interesting takeaway from the article is that while breast implants have been rather stable in popularity over the last few years, the number of butt augmentation procedures performed has increased significantly (though since multiple procedures on the same women are counted separately it’s still hard to tell how many women are doing it, and this also includes fat transfer or other non-implant procedures). I’m curious if, since some trans* women might get butt implants as well, if TERFs think that erases flat-bottomed cis women.