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OH NO A SNAKE TORNADO: Twitter takes 5/2/20

I thought I’d start up again with my little Twitter roundups. Consider these to be open threads.

–DF

https://twitter.com/commie_cum/status/1256306355188535296

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Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
4 months ago

@Naglfar,

If they really wanted to clean a body of toxins, there’s any number of teas and herbal infusions that could be used instead for that purpose. While many of them might not work the way the woo peddlers may want, at least the majority of them won’t kill the patient when used. Heck, many of them could be sold as Old Ancient Knowledge from the Time before Time that modern science won’t acknowledge because they didn’t invent it first. Or something like that.

Or is the true goal here the desire to poison ‘undesirable’ ‘broken’ people legally and get awards for doing so?

ETA: then I catch up on the posts made while I was typing this, and I guess that they really do want want awards for killing their ‘defective’ children. >.<

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Redsilkphoenix

the majority of them won’t kill the patient when used

True, but many are still dangerous. A lot of detox teas can cause kidney failure or hyponatremia if you drink too much because of the diuretic effects. Or that a lot of herbal supplements are unregulated and contain various poisons.

Or is the true goal here the desire to poison ‘undesirable’ ‘broken’ people legally and get awards for doing so?

Exactly. There’s a reason nobody markers bleach for abled white people as a supplement (or I guess Trump did, but nobody else does).

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 months ago

@redsilkphoenix : relatedly, it’s pretty easy to characterize almost any substance as being harmful (or innocuous).

We say the MMS is bleach, and that’s technically true, but it’s exactly as valid as saying vaccines (sometime) have mercury, vinegar is a detergent, water an horribly corrosive liquid, or most chimiotherapy horribly toxic, as in, it’s true but don’t mean what one might think.

The main problem with that bleach cure is that there is 0 scientific proof it work, 0 valid reasoning that make it a good idea, and 0 observation of it improving anything. Saying “it’s bleach” have the advantage of being short and snappy, but it’s using a fallacy very often used by antivaxx.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 months ago

@redsilkphoenix : note that “clean a body of toxin” don’t mean anything. It’s similar to “open your chakra” or “califragilisticexpialidociously wring your daos”. Toxins isn’t a well defined term, cleaning a body neither. That’s important because the concept that there are harmless detox is quite wrong too.

It’s a lot easier to make people understand thoses things are harmful by explaining thoses are random herb infusions first ; it remove the concept that it could even possibly do something good. And I find easier to explain people that something is meaningless than explaining that it don’t work.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Ohlmann

Saying “it’s bleach” have the advantage of being short and snappy, but it’s using a fallacy very often used by antivaxx.

Although it is a type of bleach, since it is somewhat different than the household type (more like an industrial variant) antivaxxers will claim that it isn’t bleach since they don’t realize that bleach refers to a broader range of substances than just one. So there are other practical reasons not to just say it’s bleach in an argument.

Speaking of antivaxxers, I recall a few days ago a prominent one on Twitter was declaring that the Trump bleach thing was a plan to expose vaccines as unsafe because supposedly vaccines contain trace amounts of bleach (don’t know if this is true but doubting it) and Trump “tricked” medical experts into saying bleach is unsafe. This obviously doesn’t make sense, but none of what antivaxxers say makes much sense.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
4 months ago

@Kupo:

To see the most recent comments, remove the ‘/comment-page-1/#comment-1234567’ (actual numbers will be different) from the end of the url and load again.

The page I was having trouble getting up to date didn’t have that to begin with, so that doesn’t (always) work.

And it happened again last night. For a while I had a tab displaying a page that was an hour and 20 minutes out-of-date compared to another tab, with both having been reloaded within the past 60 seconds. An hour and 20 minutes difference!

This problem a) does not have workarounds that work 100% reliably and b) is clearly getting worse. I think it warrants the server admin taking a look under the proverbial hood. I’m just surprised that even after the noticeable worsening it’s undergone in the past few days nobody seems to agree with me.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
4 months ago

Surplus – WE CAN’T FIX THIS FOR YOU. PLEASE stop telling us that “someone has to do something”, NO ONE CAN.

If you MUST share your frustration, share *that*. We could sympathise with you on that. (maybe, I’m pretty burnt out on you tbh, which is why I haven’t replied to your first messages.)

Here’s a script on how that could look.

“ARGH I’m having a problem getting the ‘recent comments’ to agree! That really bothers me, and I wish it didn’t happen.”

That is a statement of fact – what is happening *for you* and how *you* are feeling about it. It ISN’T freaking over the top, like

I won’t accept this any more.

and it ISN’T demanding some mystical ‘server admin’ fix the damn problem.

Who do you think the ‘server admin’ for this donation supported site is? Who do you think pays for the technical stuff? Can you kick in the extra money to have someone fix this? Can you fix it yourself?

If you can’t do either of those things, STOP DEMANDING FIXES.

Here’s a solution that will work 100% of the time: STOP USING THE RECENT COMMENTS FEATURE. We all *know* it’s broken! Just refresh the comment page you’re on!

I typically use the recent comments to see which article currently has activity on it, and to see if anyone has necro’d an old thread.

My brain remembers the number of comments, which is really weird, because I usually can’t remember anything. So that might not work for you, but you could keep a file or a little physical notepad where you write down the number of comments you read, maybe?

If the thing you are doing doesn’t work, STOP DOING IT. Find a NEW solution. Especially when you know the broken thing isn’t going to get fixed any time soon.

Also L-O-Freaking-L at this:

I was willing to put up with occasionally having to hammer reload a few dozen times (…)

No you weren’t. We’ve been here reading your demands this whole time. These “THIS MUST BE FIXED” demands happen every few months. Come on.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 months ago

@Redsilkphoenix, Naglfar:
Part of the problem is that a lot of these people are seriously treating this as some sort of Fae Changeling thing, that their ‘real’ child was stolen from them and what they actually have isn’t their child. They have quite blatantly dehumanized their own children, and then want awards for having to put up with this changeling they are ‘forced’ to help.

@Surplus:
And part of the problem, as has been explained before, is that David is using WordPress for this, and so this isn’t a problem David can fix. It’s a problem only WordPress can fix, and ‘fixing’ it could make the whole thing perform a lot worse.

What looks to you and the rest of us as one page isn’t. There are dozens of computers behind any WordPress site, each having to communicate with a database, each caching results so as to respond faster. Every single request could go to a different one of them (though requests from within the same tab will usually go to the same location due to caching within the tab), producing different results for the same request. Different parts of the page could be coming from different internal requests between the computers, which are only assembled at the front end before being sent out to you.

Take a look at the page source some time, you’ll see things like <!– Generated by https://wordpress.org/plugins/advanced-random-posts-widget/ –> that indicate the places where the side widgets are all based on separate internal requests.

This looks like one page, but that is an illusion, and the illusion occasionally shows cracks. Any attempt to fix that by actually requiring completely synchronous operation would be guaranteed to make the load time of the pages worse, as well as probably requiring more computers to handle the load and making it more expensive.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Rhuu

My brain remembers the number of comments

I do the same thing. I will note that it appears there may be a new bug with the refresh that I’ve been seeing more lately, but for me it pretty much always works to just refresh the page again.

@Jenora Feuer

They have quite blatantly dehumanized their own children, and then want awards for having to put up with this changeling they are ‘forced’ to help.

Yeah, that’s basically the business model of Autism $peaks. They even at one point published a horrible poem by Billy Mann, a celebrity and one of their board members, that explicitly talks about autism “stealing” their children.

Allandrel
Allandrel
4 months ago

@Jenora Feuer

Part of the problem is that a lot of these people are seriously treating this as some sort of Fae Changeling thing, that their ‘real’ child was stolen from them and what they actually have isn’t their child. They have quite blatantly dehumanized their own children, and then want awards for having to put up with this changeling they are ‘forced’ to help.

I do wonder if autism may be behind the changeling myth. Symptoms usually become apparent at about the same age that the Fair Folk supposedly kidnap children.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
4 months ago

@Naglfar, others:

The underlying problem seems to be entitlement again here: they had an idea of how their child would be, but their actual child didn’t live up to that idea. And they feel they have the right to bash that child into the shape of that idea by force, more or less, as if they’d ordered a product from Children Inc. and the manufacturer had failed to live up to the sales contract and went on to fail to live up to the warranty as well. But children aren’t a product and don’t have a warranty.

This in turn suggests they were already dehumanizing their children, and that other parents are doing so quietly whose children didn’t (yet) violate their expectations in a major way. The parents actually trying to alter/poison/kill autistic children are just the visible tip of a very large iceberg of parents who do not view their children as fully fledged human beings who don’t exist just to fulfill some agenda of the parents. What happens when one of the neurotypical children in such a relationship decides against following in Daddy’s footsteps on Career Day? And of course, we hear all the time here about what happens when one of the children of such parents approaches or enters puberty and turns out gay, or trans …

I’ll bet all of this strongly correlates with the parents’ voting habits, too. Seeing other people as objects that can either further one’s agenda, be an obstacle of some sort, or else be an irrelevancy seems to be a conservative trait, here extended to one’s own offspring.

@Jenora Feuer:

This looks like one page, but that is an illusion, and the illusion occasionally shows cracks

The problem here is that those cracks are getting wider. The desynchronization between the components was, two years ago, small enough to be undetectable (to humans). Milliseconds, maybe even whole seconds, but no larger than that. Small enough a new comment pretty much never happened to be that new when you first saw it.

Then it grew until it was a minute. Two minutes. Five minutes. Now it can be as much as AN HOUR AND TWENTY MINUTES.

I’d expect steeply diminishing marginal returns in saved server resources from reducing the synchronization frequency that much. Even every one minute would probably give decent performance, without much noticeable out-of-date-ness to end users, and with little resource usage such that changing it to every two minutes wouldn’t be worthwhile. And I can’t believe any human being would think letting things get out of step by HOURS would be a good idea at all. So I’m quite sure there are bugs/malfunctions involved here and not just intentional resource management decisions. The bugs might stem from such decisions, incorrectly implemented, though.

And another thing: that the magnitude of the desynchronization is growing and growing (and now I suspect the rate of growth is itself growing) points to a cascading failure that will keep getting worse if not attended to. At some point I expect the threshold of linear behavior will be exceeded, and instead of things just being a few more minutes out of date some times, something will just outright crash. And then there goes WHTM, if nothing has been done in the interim.

I hope David and/or the hosting company keeps good backups …

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Allandrel

I do wonder if autism may be behind the changeling myth. Symptoms usually become apparent at about the same age that the Fair Folk supposedly kidnap children.

I’ve heard autism proposed as one possible explanation, but there are numerous other things that it could be as well (I’ve heard Williams Syndrome suggested as an explanation, for example).

@Surplus

I’ll bet all of this strongly correlates with the parents’ voting habits, too. Seeing other people as objects that can either further one’s agenda, be an obstacle of some sort, or else be an irrelevancy seems to be a conservative trait, here extended to one’s own offspring.

Sadly, it’s not just a conservative trait. I know plenty of people who are more progressive who still think their children are to follow in their footsteps and be molded to their vision. Though I do think conservatives are more likely to push the stereotyped roles for their children, and are more likely to push ideas like filial piety and that children should be like their parents and continue some sort of familial trend rather than being different.

And of course, we hear all the time here about what happens when one of the children of such parents approaches or enters puberty and turns out gay, or trans …

The response of homophobic and transphobic parents to having LGBT kids is very similar to that of ableist parents to autistic children. Both talk about an “agenda” that took their child, both advocate “therapy” that is actually torture, and both spend time grieving because they think they’ve “lost” their child (when in reality they have not “lost” their child, they are just failing to accept that said child isn’t what they expected).

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
4 months ago

Has anyone been watching the Hulu/FX series Mrs. America? It’s about the fight over the Equal Rights Amendment, with Cate Blanchette as Phyllis Schlafly. Interestingly, Phyllis’s side is vociferously defending some of the very things that the manosphere blames on feminists: women being free of the draft, alimony, mothers being granted custody. The acronym of her group was STOP ERA, and the STOP stood for Stop Taking Our Privileges. Maybe these guys need to stop screeching about [random woman they’ve been harassing for years] and get post-mortemly angry at Phyllis.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@LindsayIrene
IIRC the manosphere generally likes Phyllis Schlafly (as does the dirtbag left, like Aimee Terese, because of course they do). Phyllis also started sounding a lot like the manosphere in her later years, talking about hypergamy a lot.

Of course, her whole life was hypocrisy: she thought women should stay out of politics and stay at home, yet she was a woman who traveled the country to speak about politics.

And her son is an interesting character too.

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
4 months ago

@Naglfar

Cripes, I forgot one of her offspring was responsible for Conservapedia! He really is a piece of work. I suppose she didn’t care that he says women are dumb? She seemed to think so much applied only to women who weren’t her.

I bet he hates the TV series, even though it may be a kinder portrayal of his mother than she deserves.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@LindsayIrene

I bet he hates the TV series

You are correct.

It is fake news, Hollywood-style. Its false theme is that Phyllis was trying to succeed in a man’s world and did not realize how it was discriminating against her too. Cate Blanchett portrays Phyllis as powerful but cold and condescending, unlike the real Phyllis.

He also co wrote an opinion piece and made his own series against it.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 months ago

Just to give everyone a heads up. This is Liet Kynes in the upcoming Dune film (which the buzz suggests is going to be awesome) so expect much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the usual suspects.

comment image

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw
I’ll get my teakettle ready to make incel tear tea.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I just can’t find it in me to watch Mrs America. I’d recommend Little Fires Everywhere though.

Moggie
Moggie
4 months ago

Cate Blanchett, though. I don’t stan, but, if I did, she’d be the one.

Fabe
Fabe
4 months ago

@Alan

They gender-swapped a secondary character ? OH yeah we are going to get a few “SJWs ruined the entire franchisee ! Frank Herbert is spinning his grave!” rants/

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 months ago

@ fabe

They gender-swapped a secondary character ?

Yup; although it appears Liet gets a much expanded role in this one.

As a big fan of the Dune Encyclopaedia, I’m hoping they incorporate some of the material from that.

OH yeah we are going to get a few “SJWs ruined the entire franchisee ! Frank Herbert is spinning his grave!” rants

Oh undoubtably. It will be interesting to see how many of them though had nothing to say about the Herbert/Anderson books; even though you could probably get a couple of gigawatts from Frank’s spinning there.

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
4 months ago

Mrs. America also has Margo Martindale as Belle Abzug and Uzo Aduba as Shirley Chisholm. Like, there are so many amazing female actors in it, Elizabeth Banks has a bit part.

Simon
Simon
4 months ago

I have worked with chlorine dioxide when doing water treatment. We used it because it’s a good way of stripping biofilms out of water systems when getting rid of pseudomonas, which is nasty anyway and also harbours legionella. When the abusive parents use it as an enema it has a similar stripping effect on the colon. They see lots of mystery stuff coming out and assume it’s the badness. It’s actually important gut lining stuff. These people need locking up.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
4 months ago

@simon

I have worked with chlorine dioxide when doing water treatment.

Some scary stuff used in water treatment. One of the few inquests I took part in taught me that!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelford_water_pollution_incident

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 months ago

@Simon : the even more ironic part is that apparently gut flora is linked to mental well being, and more speculatively personality and preventing some mental disorders. So they could foster actually dangerous disorder like depression and whatnot doing that, in addition of all the poisoning, child abuse, and everything.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Ohlmann

So they could foster actually dangerous disorder like depression and whatnot doing that

I highly doubt that the parents doing this care about their children’s mental health if they are giving them bleach enemas.
They’re also extremely difficult to argue with. If you try to point out that what they’re doing is harmful, they’ll say something like “you can’t judge us, you don’t know what it’s like to suffer the effects of a family member with autism.” And when I point out I am autistic they either become extremely condescending or say that I can’t really be autistic because I can pass for neurotypical, or that I don’t know about “severe autism” (which is not a medical diagnosis or an actual dichotomy).

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 months ago

@Ohlmann, Naglfar:
Regarding ‘can’t really be autistic’…

Never mind that one of the comments I’ve heard on this is ‘developmental delay is not developmental stasis’.

Never mind that I’ve known several autistic people with whom you wouldn’t notice unless they were under stress at the time; from what I understand, the two biggest issues for people with autism growing up boil down to:
– information overload
– much of the social processing for ‘what might that other person be thinking’ doesn’t happen subconsciously
How to deal with these can be taught, it just requires somebody who knows what they’re talking about doing the teaching, and a constant extra bit of mental effort from the person in question. So people with autism are likely going to go through life with somewhat fewer ‘spoons’ than other people as a result, because they have to actively think about social interactions other people take for granted.

(Feel free to tell me I’m out to lunch, or if I’m using the wrong terminology; this is hardly my field of expertise.)

The problem then becomes that these parents not only aren’t giving their children the tools they need to actually cope with the outside world, they’re torturing their kids, and the ‘information overload’ part of it makes that even worse. Sure, the torture will make them ‘behave’ a lot of the time… that’s the point of torture, anyway, to make someone too scared to ever do again what prompted the torture in the first place.

Their own actions are making their children less able to cope with the outside world, and therefore actively making it harder on themselves, feeding into the martyr complex all the more.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Jenora Feuer

How to deal with these can be taught, it just requires somebody who knows what they’re talking about doing the teaching, and a constant extra bit of mental effort from the person in question. So people with autism are likely going to go through life with somewhat fewer ‘spoons’ than other people as a result, because they have to actively think about social interactions other people take for granted.

I can’t speak for others, but for me it takes conscious effort to do a lot of social cues that allistic people do without thinking about it. The biggest effect I’ve noticed from this has to do with eye contact: I can either hear what someone says and process it or I can make eye contact. I can generally fake eye contact now, but growing up teachers would constantly yell at me despite the fact that I was a straight-A student because they thought I wasn’t paying attention when I wasn’t making eye contact with them.

Sure, the torture will make them ‘behave’ a lot of the time… that’s the point of torture, anyway, to make someone too scared to ever do again what prompted the torture in the first place.

This is basically what ABA does. It tortures children into behaving, and now that the original generation of kids who suffered it are adults, we have a lot of autistic adults with PTSD from it.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 months ago

@Naglfar:
That about matches what I understood from others, with regards to reading social cues.

I knew one person in University who couldn’t hold eye contact with anybody… though in his case it wasn’t autism, it was albinism which resulted in a significant blind spot in his eyes. In order to really see people, he pretty much had to look at them from an angle. I will admit I found it vaguely disconcerting at first, but got over that fairly quickly. (And, later on as I learned more about psychology and sociology, I started poking at why it was disconcerting to me in the first place. Actually examining previously unexamined assumptions can be good for you. The sorts of people we usually talk about on this site need to do it more.)

I will admit I didn’t know that about ABA. It’s not something that I’d ever had to know about.

Doing a quick bit of research, I can see both why ABA took off in the first place (it was a lot better than institutionalizing folks, which isn’t saying much) and why it’s a problem now (originally a one-size-fits-all approach for vastly different people, active punishment of anything not ‘normal’, and enough free reign that some therapists are going to be far worse than others). It also looks like a lot of what is called ABA these days is rather different from the original ABA, partly due to these concerns. Which was probably done because medical insurance would pay for ABA but not other approaches, but which also causes problems in that the family has less idea of what they will actually get if it’s all called the same thing.

I also find it absolutely not surprising that the person who developed it in the first place was of the Skinnerian school of psychology.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Jenora Feuer
I haven’t experienced ABA fortunately, but from what I’ve heard the problem stems from it’s repression of stimming, which is generally harmless and repressing it can cause a lot of stress. As well, often times it has involved corporal punishments. IIRC it is also promoted by Autism Speaks.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
4 months ago

@ Naglfar & re: eye contact
I knew a guy who had strabismus and usually didn’t look people in the eye, because he said no one could ever really tell he was looking them in the eye anyway, since his eyes were looking in different directions. I don’t remember how it came up in conversation, but I don’t remember it feeling weird even before that. Thinking back, I’m sure he’d learned to give other cues to tell you he was listening.

So it seems especially cruel that someone would yell at a child about something that can have so many different reasons and doesn’t really matter that much.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
4 months ago

@Masse_Mysteria:
I had a friend who had been like that; he got it corrected by surgery when he was young, but he never did ‘properly’ develop stereoscopic vision. Needless to say, he absolutely hated having things thrown at him, as he could never judge how far away something was.

One of my high school physics teachers actually had an ‘evil eye’: one of her eyes was enlarged and stuck in the socket so it didn’t move. She was also one of the better physics teachers I ever had.

So much of bigotry just seems to be a combination of ‘sheltered upbringing’ and ‘disgust’. Getting exposed to a wide variety of different types of people early on can help break the first, at least… of course, that’s part of why so many bigoted parents hate the idea exposing their children to people who are different, because they might grow up to not be bigots.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Jenora Feuer

he absolutely hated having things thrown at him, as he could never judge how far away something was.

That’s another thing. I have absolutely horrible catching and throwing ability (which I think is related to autism) so I hate it when people throw things at me and expect me to catch.

that’s part of why so many bigoted parents hate the idea exposing their children to people who are different, because they might grow up to not be bigots.

I see a lot of transphobes say that trans* people need to stay away from children because that might make the children trans* (and the same has been said about gay people and children becoming gay). I don’t think parents legitimately think that exposure to gay or trans* people can make their children become LGBTQIPA+, but I think the real fear is, like you said, that the children would learn that LGBTQIPA+ people are people and deserving of the same respect as cis straight people.

Snowberry
Snowberry
4 months ago

Not autistic, but I find eyes to be kind of creepy, so I sort of subconsciously edit them out. I don’t actually remember what color anyone’s eyes are.

People have, however, praised me in a few times in the past for being someone who will always look at them in the eyes. That’s not what I’m actually doing. I’m watching their face, because I’m good at reading micro-expressions and can get a feel whether their apparent mood/attitude is sincere. Their eyes just happen to be in the general area. Don’t know if that counts, because I’m not actually sure why anyone would want to look at someone in the eyes. I don’t particularly care where someone’s looking as long as I can get at least a halfway decent read on their face.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 months ago

I personally tend to avoid looking at the eye, especially of pretty people, because generally it’s the most attractive part of a person and gazing at the attractive part is creepy.

@Nagflar : I do believe thoses bigots sincerely think it’s a way to avoid being [whatever characteristic they hate]. You give them too much self-consciousness by thinking they have a plan greater than that.

Also, for homosexuality and transsexuality, seeing models help get out of the closets, so functionaly for bigot exposition “create” more of what they hate.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
4 months ago

@Ohlmann

Also, for homosexuality and transsexuality, seeing models help get out of the closets, so functionaly for bigot exposition “create” more of what they hate.

I think it’s sometimes even just having to acknowledge that people who are not heterosexual and cisgender exist.

Back when we were having the whole marriage equality discussion here in Finland, an actual member of the parliament said (in the parliament, though I don’t remember if it was question time or a plenary session or what) that we can’t legalise gay marriage because if we do that, gay men can come into the men’s locker rooms and look at men.

To this day, I still can’t figure out where he though gay men had been changing their clothes and how marriage had anything to do with it. Maybe bachelors aren’t allowed in locker rooms?

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Masse_mysteria
A couple years ago in Massachusetts an anti-LGBT group managed to get a question onto the ballot about whether to overturn trans* rights in Massachusetts (it was very deceptively worded). It didn’t pass, thankfully, but one common trend in the advertising was that it would allow trans* women into bathrooms with young girls. Thing is, trans* women have been using women’s restrooms for decades (sort of like how gay men had been using men’s restrooms). This wouldn’t be something new. And we’re seeing similar arguments out of Britain with the GRA reform.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
4 months ago

@Naglfar
When I was younger, I thought that people thinking like this were clueless, but nowadays I really think they’re just willfully ignoring the existence of anyone who doesn’t fit into their worldview. That’s the only explanation I can think of for people getting upset for Pride stuff or a rainbow flag or queer character in a TV show. No matter how many times these things happen, there’s just no accumulation. Every time LGBTQ+ things are brought up, they’re novel and need to be justified all over again.

It’s like:
1: Gay people exist.
2: No they don’t actually.
1: Well, that kid in your kid’s class has two moms, I’m pretty sure they’re gay.
2: You’ve misunderstood something. Even if gay people exist, they do it somewhere where I never get in contact with them.

After enough repeats and time, maybe:
1: We’ve been over this. Gay people exist. That kid in your kid’s class has two moms, they are gay.
2: Yeah, but that’s just them. They are the only ones. Other gay people don’t exist, and even if they do, they’re not like those two, those two are normal. They’re the only normal gay people in the world.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
4 months ago

In my experience, the biggest bigots are not ignoring that gay people exist, they just want gay people to cease to be gay. They think gayness is a choice, and gay people could choose to be heterosexual if they wanted to. So gay people don’t really deserve “special” rights; they have the same rights as heterosexuals, to love and marry someone of the opposite sex, something they absolutely could choose to do if they just wanted to. That’s the position the bigots take, in my life at least.

Exposure to gay people doesn’t necessarily change this, either. There is a gay person in my near family, and my parents think it’s just a phase and that person will “grow out of it” sooner or later.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
4 months ago

It’s exactly what you say, but I would also add that they are in contact with pretty few homosexuals and trans. Half because even now a lot of thoses hide it, half because in the end there isn’t *that* many non-straight cisgender people. So something like 70% of the people they know would be straight cisgender even before selection bias kick in.

No surprise they easily brush off thoses few they know.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@PoM

They think gayness is a choice, and gay people could choose to be heterosexual if they wanted to.

I’ve heard bigots say this, and I’ve also heard a similar position where they acknowledge that people don’t choose to be gay but still think that they could (and should) just be celibate and closeted for their whole lives. This seems to be the position of some fundamentalist Christians. For trans* people, they put up a similar argument that someone should just stay closeted and not transition in any way. They then claim to be tolerant because they say they don’t hate the people, they’re just opposed to the act of gay sex or transitioning (though obviously they do hate the people).

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
4 months ago

I was being silly, but I was mostly speaking of my experience with people who seem to think that LGBTQ+ people exist out there but that their own workplace or such shouldn’t need to take “those people” into account. “Those people” are something strange and unusual, something you see in a Pride parade, and if someone is one of “those people” but is not strange and unusual, they must be some sort of a fluke.

I’ve mostly encountered this second hand, but I’m still at a loss for words for that one time when I was told that a girl I went to school with can’t be a lesbian (even though she apparently is) since she always seemed so “mainstream”.

I’m not saying exposure to minorities will eventually fix bigotry, I meant that if you hate people you’ve never met and then for some reason meet them and have to interact them, realising they’re just people like everyone else will probably not make you realise you’ve been wrong but think that these people you’ve been in contact with are some sort of an exception.

@Naglfar
Back when I was hanging on an Internet forum for asexuals, I read someone had been told their asexuality is not a sin in the eyes of god unless they “act on it”. It’s all very confusing.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Masse_mysteria

Back when I was hanging on an Internet forum for asexuals, I read someone had been told their asexuality is not a sin in the eyes of god unless they “act on it”. It’s all very confusing.

Wait, so that means it’s a sin if they don’t have sex? I’m not asexual, but if not having sex at any given moment is a sin, I’ve done a lot of sinning. And since I’m currently quarantined without a sexual partner, will continue to sin by not having sex until it is safe to go on dates again. It must be very hard to live a sin-free life, I think I’d get sore, never mind refractory periods.

Snowberry
Snowberry
4 months ago

@Masse_Mysteria:

someone had been told their asexuality is not a sin in the eyes of god unless they “act on it”. It’s all very confusing.

I don’t know if whoever originally said it was thinking along these lines, but a legitimate take on that is: Pre-internet, it wasn’t unheard of for asexuals to be all “abstinence before marriage”, marry non-aces, and then refuse to have sex with them, under the idea that “love conquers all” (in this case, that if they really loved them, non-aces should be able to put aside getting their sexual needs fulfilled… and if they can’t, it’s not love). This of course almost never works, leading to divorce, cheating, rape, or worst of all (in the eyes of religious fundamentalists) not producing children.

Catalpa
Catalpa
4 months ago

@Snowberry

I don’t believe this is how you intended it, but it feels like your post is implying that ace people are somehow victimizing allo people by not having sex with them after being married. And that’s… Not great.

Obviously people should have a frank discussion about what their expectations are before getting married, and you can’t expect love to “fix” allo people and make them ace, any more than you can expect love to “fix” ace people and make them allo (though in my experience, the latter concept is incredibly more common than the former.) But hearing what sounds like “well, some ace people selfishly refused to fulfill their spouses needs!” here feels pretty shitty, not gonna lie.

Snowberry
Snowberry
4 months ago

@Catalpa: Ergh, no. Re-reading it, I can see how it can be easily interpreted that way. I didn’t mean to put it all on ace people, just that lack of communication on both sides about relationship expectations pre-marriage and then expecting the other person to conform to them post-marriage is a serious problem, and it is especially likely to go wrong if one person is ace and the other has a high sex drive. Of course the ace person is much more likely to be blamed in that case because they’re not the presumed default, which wasn’t entirely unfair… but on the other hand, the social (and in some cases, economic) pressure to get married wasn’t really fair to most ace people either, so… it’s a mess. Now that people are actually talking about that sort of thing, that kind of mess is much less likely to happen.

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
4 months ago

@snowberry,

…what Catalpa said. I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean to be hurtful, but that kinda felt like a kick in the teeth.

I think you meant to convey that what fundamentalists were thinking, and weren’t expressing your own thoughts.

Still, ow.

I’m already incredibly paranoid about accidentally leading people on after one of my good friends caught feelings and the “I’m sorry but I don’t want to date you” conversation put our friendship in an incredibly awkward and sucky place for YEARS.

So… yeah.

It sucks when people don’t figure out they have an intrinsic incompatibility of needs until after marriage.

It also sucks to be constantly reminded that I’m incredibly unlikely to ever be married, and if I do and my partner cheats on/rapes/divorces me it’s OBVIOUSLY because I’m ace and frigid and garbage.

Again, I don’t think that was your intent. I think you were saying what they thought ‘acting on ace-ness” was.

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
4 months ago

Ack! Ninja’d by a reply and my response is in the mod-buffer of “haha can’t edit this” purgatory.

@snowberry, ignore the long reply of mine. You already got the message and I did not mean to keep poking at you with a stick.

Naglfar
Naglfar
4 months ago

@Catalpa, contrapangloss, others
Just to be clear, my comment was in no way meant to be aphobic. I was trying to mock what the aphobes said by ridiculing the idea of sin and “acting on it”. If my comment was aphobic or otherwise hurtful to anyone here, I apologize.