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/pol/ 4chan anti-Semitism feminization fragile masculinity gender policing homophobia masculinity men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny transmisogyny transphobia

Scientists test whether giving men estrogen could help them survive coronavirus — and conspiracy theorists run wild

By David Futrelle

Cis woman are much more likely to survive coronavirus than their male counterparts, and we don’t know why. Could if be differences in lifestyle? (Men are more prone to smoke and less prone to wash their hands.) Or could it be something more basic — like the sex hormones estrogen and progesterone — that offer cis women special protection from the deadly virus?

The New York Times reported yesterday that scientists in New York and California are testing the latter proposition, giving (consenting) male patients with coronavirus doses of estrogen or progesterone to see if this helps them survive. In the giant game of telephone that is the internet, this news quickly turned into “doctors are giving men estrogen to protest them from coronavirus,” as if this had suddenly become some sort of widespread practice.

And the people who are already obsessed with the alleged dangers of estrogen to manly men started to lose their shit.

On 4Chan’s /pol/ board, the news quickly became “Jews are injecting you with estrogen now. They don’t even hide it any more.” One anon charged that

They want [to] trivialize HRT usage, make it a regular medicine and low key put in the mind of people that masculinity is a disease. It’s no coincidence that a jewish woman is behind this.

Responding to a photo of one of the researchers, another anon wrote:

Just look at her fce, she’s a dyke who have been fantasing about feminizing men for a while and this is just an excuse. 

On Twitter, meanwhile, assorted conspiracy theorists put forth similar, er, hypotheses.

You know, Q Jim, I would be surprised if that was the case. Very surprised.

It’s no shock that a Qanon conspiracist has glommed onto this news. I’m just waiting for the incels and MGTOWs to discover the story.

Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.

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Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
5 months ago

@the friend Alan was asking on behalf of – Yes, sorry, CT is conspiracy theory. I was having a lazy typing moment and WTAU*

There is a conspiracy theory floating around that Trump and his inner circle have been injecting themselves with antibodies from recovered patients. That seems far-fetched, but then again, we’re talking about ghoulishly selfish people with large amounts of money.

I wouldn’t doubt that at a minimum, they’re all getting tested quite frequently and have access to concierge healthcare that the rest of us can only dream of. Still, that can only do so much against a highly transmissible virus with an unpredictable course that, even in moderate cases, seems to lay a large percentage of its victims flat on their back for a few weeks. It’s just very odd.

*wanted to abbreviate unnecessarily

@Naglfar

She pointed out that it seems the default medical assumption was that immunity must lie in what women have that men don’t (more estrogen) rather than in the absence of something men do have (more testosterone), which frames women as other and as deviations, while positioning men as the norm.

Yes, that’s a great way of framing it. I’m sure the manosphere would react equally maturely to the notion of reducing their testosterone. This is literally the hill they’re willing to die on.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Buttercup

I wouldn’t doubt that at a minimum, they’re all getting tested quite frequently and have access to concierge healthcare that the rest of us can only dream of. Still, that can only do so much against a highly transmissible virus with an unpredictable course that, even in moderate cases, seems to lay a large percentage of its victims flat on their back for a few weeks. It’s just very odd.

I’d think another possible explanation is that they have simply been for the most part kept away from patients and have gotten lucky in incidents where they were in close proximity. As for Pence, we’ll see if he gets sick in a few days. I won’t have much sympathy for him.

I’m sure the manosphere would react equally maturely to the notion of reducing their testosterone.

What’s also interesting is that testosterone blockers are prescribed to men for a number of reasons, including hormonal acne, hirsutism, hair loss, edema, prostate hyperplasia, various heart conditions, and hormone-sensitive cancers, while estrogen is very rarely prescribed to men. One would think they’d try testosterone blockers first. (Disclaimer: IANAD*, so there might be some details I’m missing)
But yes, the manosphere would probably have at least the same level of histrionics, if not more.

*I am not a doctor, in case there is anyone too embarrassed to ask but wants to know what it means

Moggie
Moggie
5 months ago

The Elizabeth Báthory method?

Moggie
Moggie
5 months ago

@Naglfar, I’m sure Pence is bathed in the blood of Jesus, or at least has regular transfusions of Jesus blood, so he can’t get sick.

Andrew
Andrew
5 months ago

“doctors are giving men estrogen to protest them from coronavirus,” – maybe should be “protect” instead of “protest?”

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
5 months ago

@Moggie:
There are already multiple late church leaders in the U.S. who would have agreed with that statement before they died of the virus in question.

Moggie
Moggie
5 months ago

@Jenora Feuer, obviously those weren’t true Scotsmen.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
5 months ago

Well, I’d say it’s less ‘No True Scotsman’ for this than ‘obviously, your faith wasn’t strong enough’… basically, it’s more the whole victim-blamey thing that comes up with both religion and alternative health care, and this is both.

(The fact that it’s pretty much the same fallacy as ‘communism cannot fail, it can only be failed’ would probably make a few of their heads explode if they didn’t immediately start into a rant about how this was obviously completely different without any coherent explanations as to why.)

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Considering that the death rate is low for white people, it doesn’t surprise me that none of these chucklefuck politicians running around sans mask aren’t dead yet. But it could happen eventually. When it does, it’d be nice that would mean they finally start to take the pandemic seriously. But what will probably happen is that they’ll lock themselves down on one of their large estates and force the rest of us to go back to work.

Snowberry
Snowberry
5 months ago

Related to the title: A pet peeve of mine is when people just say “scientist(s)” in the headlines. It’s lazy, nebulous, and there are people who rarely read more than the headlines. There is a certain type of person who knee-jerk distrusts something just because “scientists” say so. It also makes a difference whether, say, a geologist is talking about climate change (note: that happens) or a climatologist. And while the latter could be clarified within the text itself, it isn’t always.

Saying that “medical researchers” or whoever is performing this study wouldn’t fix everything – for example, people might still knee-jerk distrust certain types of scientists, and some people might think anything with a fancy-sounding name is a legitimate field of study – but it would add clarity and make it harder to believe that “science” is a monolithic, and possibly sinister, institution.

Same goes with doctors, I suppose, but most people don’t know the names most medical specailties, so unless one used common terms like “heart surgeon” that wouldn’t add as much clarity as one would hope.

Moggie
Moggie
5 months ago

Incidentally, what does it take to kill that fucker Kissinger?

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Moggie

at least has regular transfusions of Jesus blood

Would that mean injecting communion wine? Probably not as bad as injecting bleach.

@WWTH

When it does, it’d be nice that would mean they finally start to take the pandemic seriously.

I feel like they still won’t. Evangelical Christian preachers have died and others are still telling people to go to church. I’d guess they’ll see anyone who dies as a sort of martyr, so long as it’s not them.

@Snowberry
What annoys me is when it says “top [insert body part] doctor” as part of a clickbait headline. It has no mention of what makes them the top doctor (I doubt there is really a ranking system of “gut” doctors (also that’s not really what they’re called), and it’s almost always part of some clickbait fake wellness headline.

Allandrel
Allandrel
5 months ago

The Evangelicals declaring that they can ignore safety measures because Jesus will protect them from the virus always makes me think of Matthew 4: 5-7:

Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 saying to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written,

‘He will command his angels concerning you,’
and ‘On their hands they will bear you up,
so that you will not dash your foot against a stone.’”

7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

But that’s par for the course, isn’t it?

WMDKitty
WMDKitty
5 months ago

@Moggie — You’d have to find whoever is holding Kissinger’s contract. You know he sold his soul somewhere along the line.

Kevin
Kevin
5 months ago

Re: The ‘antibodies conspiracy theory.’

In fact, convalescent antibody therapy does work for some diseases, though I understand it’s no ‘magic bullet.’ The essence is that a recent survivor of the disease donates some blood, which is either given directly to a still-symptomatic patient, or has the appropriate antibodies extracted (less bother with blood group matching) which are then administered to the still-symptomatic as before. And it is under trial for Covid-19.

I also understand it was used during the ‘Spanish Flu’ pandemic around a hundred years ago.

Thing is, nobody knows If it would prevent somebody falling ill in the first place. Or even if surviving Covid-19 confers any immunity. Something similar (can’t remember the full details) can be done with hepatitis, which quickly confers some passive immunity.

Covid-19 is a different disease though. And BoJo the Clown’s brush with death rather undermines the conspiracy theory. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

As an aside, immunotherapy techniques related to this gave rise to a ‘blood libel’ put forward by Chinese insurgents during the Boxer Rebellion.

House point for being able to say what it was.

Seth S
Seth S
5 months ago

I think the medical community have some awareness that reducing testosterone isn’t the way to go. That is, after all, one of the ways to control one of the most common problems facing cis men in the higher age bracket…. prostate issues. They get T-blockers. And this thing is hitting older cis men (who are the most likely to have already been receiving that treatment prior to infection, in relatively large numbers because a large majority of cis men over 70 has some degree of prostate enlargement) HARD.

They might also have been able to glean some data from any victims who were cis women with inoperable metastatic breast cancer and are getting testosterone to treat that, since they’re apparently bound and determined to do anything needed to keep from treating trans people like legitimate human beings in hospitals. Heaven forbid…

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
5 months ago

Buttercup:

Why is it that approximately zero of these rich white politicians who mingle with carriers at SuperPAC events and walk around maskless in COVID-19 wards ever seem to succumb to the virus?

I understand most networking events have been canceled since before the US epidemic really got going. I suppose rich white people are generally relatively well protected (socially, medically etc.), despite occasional shows of personal recklessness.

As of now, apparently most Americans haven’t been infected yet. Confirmed cases are 0.3 % of the population; I’d guesstimate the real rate is probably less than 10 %. The epidemic will likely continue to be mismanaged for many months, infecting potentially more than half the population, including quite a many rich white people.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 months ago

@WWTH : for what it’s worth, there have been at least one white male politician of importance that died from COVID in France. Still not a lot of them compared to the risk they take.

Moggie
Moggie
5 months ago

@Naglfar:

I feel like they still won’t. Evangelical Christian preachers have died and others are still telling people to go to church. I’d guess they’ll see anyone who dies as a sort of martyr, so long as it’s not them.

I’m not a Christian, so I’ll just point to the advice from America’s best Christian:

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Kevin

Or even if surviving Covid-19 confers any immunity.

AFAIK it doesn’t seem to, so I’m not sure how well antibody therapy would prevent infection in others.

@Seth S

And this thing is hitting older cis men (who are the most likely to have already been receiving that treatment prior to infection, in relatively large numbers because a large majority of cis men over 70 has some degree of prostate enlargement) HARD.

It’s possible that the low coronavirus survival rates for older men are related to lower testosterone, but it could also be another effect of aging, seeing as older women aren’t doing as well as younger women (but better than old men) and children seem to be much less affected despite prepubescent children having very low testosterone.
The reason I think it’s unlikely to be estrogen or progesterone that helps is because postmenopausal cis women seem to have a better prognosis than cis men of the same age range, and postmenopausal cis women would have much lower estrogen levels than their younger counterparts.

jefrir
jefrir
5 months ago

@Naglfar

AFAIK it doesn’t seem to, so I’m not sure how well antibody therapy would prevent infection in others.

We don’t have definitive proof that it does, which has led to potentially misleading headlines from the likes of the WHO, but we also don’t have good reason to think it doesn’t, and at least some immunity would be the default assumption.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 months ago

@Nagflar : not quite. Apparently, there’s a permanent immunity on most recovered cases (like usual), but we aren’t 100% sure, and there’s some sign it might not be alway true. It’s not really that scientists think there is no immunity.

Dunno where the previous post have gone, but just in case : in France there have been one somewhat important white male politician casualty. Still a lot less than expected given how stupid risky they tend to be with the COVID.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Ohlmann
Ah, that makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago
Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw
I don’t want to speculate about conspiracies, but if I was, I would wonder if Trump created the virus or was at least connected to its creation. He seems to strongly be helping it spread.

Universal Kami
Universal Kami
5 months ago

Re: adrenochrome

Isn’t that basically what some cultures do to non-human animals so the meat “tastes better”?

Why is this being applied to humans now?

Well, it’s been applied to humans for a few years now, but c’mon.

Although I could be wrong about what adrenochrome actually is, I know I’m not wrong that some people honestly think torturing an animal will make it “taste better”.

I’m not a vegan by diet, and I know humans are naturally omnivorous, but I advocate for the less harm done to our food the better.

I know humans are animals, too, but I mean usually every society has some taboo against cannibalism.

Anti-Semites and their ilk never fail to disappoint me.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 months ago

@naglfar : then you are speculating :p

More seriously, that don’t look like a plan Trump could come up with. Similarly, I don’t think he intend to spread the virus. If he intended that, I believe he would accidentaly create a serum against it TBH.

@Universal Kami : I am not aware of any culture where “beast that suffered” would taste better, so that look like speculation. I would also like to point out that plants can completely suffer too. The good thing is that because it’s less noticeable, less people wound tress and plants out of sheer cruelty.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ universal kami

I mean usually every society has some taboo against cannibalism.

I’m not sure that’s the case. There have been plenty of cultures where cannibalism, whether for survival or just ritual purposes, has been perfectly acceptable. After all, apart from the disease risks, there’s no logical reason not to engage.

I think Kryten expressed it best.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Ohlmann
I know, I was trying to make a joke about Trump’s very poor management.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
5 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw : I am not aware of a culture where survival cannibalism is perfectly acceptable. All the one I know have religious or superstious meaning attached. One where it’s accepted would be an interesting sight to me.

Moggie
Moggie
5 months ago

Huh, looks like I picked the wrong thread to post Alex Jones’s cannibal fantasy.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Two threads where cannibalism is being discussed?

2020 sure is swell.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

Re: cannibalism
Parker Malloy gave us a jazz version of Alex Jones’s cannibalism rant.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ ohlmann

I think this is a book I’d like to read.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/02/cannibalism-common-natural-history-bill-schutt/

I used to have a great book called Cannibalism and the Common Law. Annoyingly I lent it to someone and now it’s out of print.

One spooky bit of cannibal trivia is that here, the key case on necessity as a defence to murder involves four adrift sailors who drew lots and then killed and ate the cabin boy, one Richard Parker.

There’s an Edgar Allen Poe novel, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym that’s about four adrift sailors who draw lots and then kill and eat the cabin boy Richard Parker. But that novel was written in 1838 and the real case didn’t happen until 1884!

Kevin
Kevin
5 months ago

@ Alan

‘The Wreck of the Whale Ship ‘Essex” is a first hand account of a similar shipwreck incident.

It involved survival cannibalism and had a terrible long term psychological effect on at least one survivor, who I understand spent the rest of his days under treatment for a severe eating disorder in consequence.

The author gave Herman Melville permission to adapt some of the book’s passages for use in ‘Moby Dick.’

On a more general note.
Pertaining to ‘animal that suffered’ my maternal grandmother, who had been a cook/housekeeper to minor gentry, would not buy meat she believed had come from any animal she believed had been unduly stressed at slaughter, as she considered it unsafe to eat. She always decided this on inspecting the cut or carcass, and would advise the local butcher accordingly, advice the butcher would act on. I’ve no idea what signs she was looking for though.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Ohlmann
I don’t know how one could tell by looking, but it appears that meat from tortured animals does taste worse.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

@ Kevin

‘The Wreck of the Whale Ship ‘Essex” is a first hand account of a similar shipwreck incident.

It was a not uncommon situation. There was even a “custom of the sea” protocol for dealing with it.

At the trial of Dudley and Stephens a barrister offered to represent them because he’d been involved in a similar incident a few years previously and, like the public at large, couldn’t see what the fuss was about. Parker’s brother later went into business with Stephens.

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Helena
Helena
5 months ago

These conspiracy theories are so stupid. In interest of facts though… the hand washing thing is dubious studies. Interestingly studies have found women have dirtier hands than mens (possibly due to moisturiser use, difference in skin and sweat), although won’t do anything for Corona.

Also after bathroom for men and women is apples and oranges. Not to get too graphic but a man can be in and out in 30 seconds without touching anything, not even his button or fly need to be touched, which makes me quite jealous… women will have to touch all sorts, seats, doors, buttons, zips, and of course the area and even inside potentially depending on what’s going on in the month… so on a large sample size (negligible difference person to person but large sample size) it would make sense more women wash their hands… and actually more worrying that so many women don’t!

Everyone needs to wash their hands though!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 months ago

Trump has invoked the Defence Production Act to compel meat producers to stay open as “an essential industry”. That seems fine with the owners of course.

Not so good for the employees though. The act provides protection to employers from prosecution for breaches of health and safety. The OSHA have issued the following guidance.

Additionally, because of the President’s invocation of the DPA, no part of the Joint Meat Processing Guidance should be construed to indicate that state and local authorities may direct a meat and poultry processing facility to close, to remain closed, or to operate in accordance with procedures other than those provided for in this Guidance.

So States and local authorities can’t force a factory to close, or comply with normal safety precautions.

The unions say they have 20+ confirmed deaths in the industry and 5,000+ confirmed cases of COVID-19. Those people are now allowed/obliged to return to work.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
5 months ago

@Helen
Interesting to think about moisturiser use and hand clealiness, especially since washing your hands a lot can lead to having to use more hand cream.

Also,

Not to get too graphic but a man can be in and out in 30 seconds without touching anything, not even his button or fly need to be touched,

Um, a friend of mine would like to know how to go to the bathroom without touching his fly. I’m not curious at all.