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MGTOW reddit sex sex workers

MGTOW: Sex work doesn’t count as real work because it “isn’t gonna repair a generator”

Unless you’re literally repairing this, you aren’t working

By David Futrelle

So the MGTOWs on Reddit are discussing the #SexWorkIsWork hashtag, and they have some, well, interesting takes on the subject.

One fellow uses the power of math and a lot of dubious assumptions to “prove” that if sex work is work, those doing the work should only be earning sixty cents per fuck.

I was wondering when ‘SexWorkIsWork’ and for this assumption to be true it should look like this:

1. Paying taxes

2. Minimum wage – The only requirement is legal age

3. Continuous work – with one short break in 8 hours

Example based on data from United States in 2019: 7,25 USD/h is minimum wage

The average intercourse time is little over 5min (date from google)

One hour has 60 minutes so: 60/5 = 12 number of intercourse per hour

7,25 USD / 12 = ~ 0.60 cents

So if ‘SexWorkIsRealWork’ – intercourse should cost 60 cents in such a rich country as USA

Yeah, that’s not how any of this works. Sex work involves a lot more than the literal act of intercourse, as I’m sure everyone but MGTOWs and other misogynists are aware. (Indeed, there are many varieties of sex work that involve no intercourse at all.)

Also, equally obviously, no one can fuck for eight hours. I mean, Jesus fucking Christ. I challenge this dude to peg himself with a dildo for even six hours and see how much he likes it.

But I do think this dude has accomplished a couple of things here. First, he inadvertently shows how shitty minimum wage jobs are, and why we need to immediately raise the minimum wage to $15/hour or more.

Second, he reveals how bad sex is for a lot of people. Five minutes? I hope the people bringing the average down are doing things other than intercourse as well.

Another MGTOW offers this bit of dubious wisdom:

Sex work isn’t gonna repair a generator.

Ah yes, because only mechanical work counts as real work, and everyone other than mechanics is doing fake work.

I can’t help but wonder how many MGTOWs could repair a generator, or even identify one in a room full of heavy machinery. Given how well they handle basic cooking, I can’t say I trust that any of them are very handy with their hands.

Then there’s this guy, who thinks that it’s the johns, not the sex workers, who are doing all the work.

If it’s real work, then it’s low value work. Unless she’s riding that cock like she’s riding a pissed off bison, the man, as always is doing the work. Paying a hooker too much so you do the bulk of the effort is like paying a plumber only so he can watch you unclog the toilet.

Yeah, a few desultory thrusts aren’t “work,” dude. And neither is sex work — or sex — very much like unclogging a toilet.

Well, to be fair, sex with a MGTOW would probably be equally disgusting, and there might be a similar sense of relief once it was done.

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Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
7 months ago

Fixing a generator might not take that long either; but there’s the old engineers’ adage “£1 for tapping with hammer; £99 for knowing where to tap it.”

Miri
Miri
7 months ago

Yeah, because whining and moaning about women on the internet is totally how everyone repairs generators.

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
7 months ago

Not only are they not having sex, I’m dubious now that any of them have jobs.

KindaSortaHarmless
KindaSortaHarmless
7 months ago

Complaining about women not wanting to be your slave ain’t gonna fix a generator either, so…

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

Some part of me is curious what SWERFs think of this argument.

I challenge this dude to peg himself with a dildo for even six hours and see how much he likes it.

Maybe we define pegging differently, but I thought it was the act of being penetrated by someone else with a strap-on. So how would he do it to himself? This is rather beside the point, but it stuck out to me.

intercourse should cost 60 cents in such a rich country as USA

I don’t think a lot of sex workers are having much physical intercourse right now, it seems a lot now are working remotely due to pandemic and using sites like OnlyFans.

I can’t help but wonder how many MGTOWs could repair a generator, or even identify one in a room full of heavy machinery. Given how well they handle basic cooking, I can’t say I trust that any of them are very handy with their hands.

I’ve never fixed a generator but I’ve fixed problems with my car engine before. I doubt many MGTOWs have. But anyway, TIL that most people I know aren’t working because their jobs don’t involve fixing generators.

the man, as always is doing the work.

And I can only imagine sex with this man is delightful.

And neither is sex work — or sex — very much like unclogging a toilet.

If your sex is like unclogging a toilet, you are doing one (or both) of those very wrong.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

These dudes always pretend to love the free market so much. By free market principles, if people are willing to pay hundreds of dollars per hour for sex worker’s services, then don’t sex workers have every right and reason to charge that much?

Tyko
Tyko
7 months ago

Do these dopes know how freelancing works?

Allandrel
Allandrel
7 months ago

I’m reminded of a post that made its way around social media a bit ago. It was a photo of a micrometer labeled “If you don’t know how to use this, you don’t deserve $15 an hour.”

I didn’t even know where to start with how wrong and awful that was.

Dalillama
Dalillama
7 months ago

I didn’t even know where to start with how wrong and awful that was.

Especially since these are usually the very same people who insist that people like Trump, Romney, and Bloomberg deserve their obscene wealth, despite the fact that none of them would know a micrometer if you hit them with one.

Crip Dyke
7 months ago

Notary service for a single signature can cost as much as CAN $40. At minimum it’s $20 up here, though it’s not always per signature. So if you’re doing a bunch of signatures in a collection of documents all at once, you might get $20 + a rate per sig or per hour. If you’re organized when you go in, it takes less than 15 minutes, easy, and probably less than 10 min, to get your group of documents done, even if its 6 or 10 signatures.

So… at a batch rate of $20 + $10/sig, with 10 sigs in 15 minutes, it’s 1.5 minutes per signature and $12/signature.

So assuming the sex worker is doing something for which training is required and doesn’t put too much effort into it, $36 for 4.5 minutes is apparently the going rate, which translates into $40 for 5 minutes.

Hm. That USD $0.60 is seeming a bit low just now.

CriticalDragon1177 (@CriticalDragon1)

Even if sex work isn’t “real work” whatever that means, how on Earth would that be an argument against it? One could make the case that being an actor or a singer, or a super star athlete is not “real work” but look how much we pay people in those professions. Yeah sure, we don’t need them to survive, but they’ve been an important part of almost every civilization that can think of.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
7 months ago

I’m sure that when a MGTOW is the customer, sex work is horribly, painfully real work. A sex worker would have to contend with the MGTOW’s nonexistent civility, homicidal hatred of women, lack of hygiene, and cheapness. She’d probably be happy to escape with her life. It’s only later on that she’d worry about whether she’d picked up a disease from the hateful man with the unwashed ass who wanted to argue about the price of sex work.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
7 months ago

Speaking of real work, a few weeks ago a troll was claiming that men were doing all the labor during this pandemic:


Women Are Keeping America Running

Garrett Schlichte

[A]ccording to a report from The New York Times, women are the people currently keeping the United States running, and not only that, they are on the front lines.

This doesn’t mean women’s work is suddenly valuable, it highlights the fact that it has always been, and that their work has long been the invisible infrastructure that allows society to function. According to the Times analysis, 1 in 3 jobs held by women has been deemed essential, and non-white women are more likely to hold these positions than anyone else. As written in the Times:

“Women make up nearly nine out of 10 nurses and nursing assistants, most respiratory therapists, a majority of pharmacists and an overwhelming majority of pharmacy aides and technicians. More than two-thirds of the workers at grocery store checkouts and fast food counters are women.”

In other words, the people who are allowing us to live a life as close to normal as possible right now, and those who are supporting and caring for the people in need, are more likely the be women than they are not to be.

https://jezebel.com/women-are-keeping-america-running-1842936043

jone (social justice cleric)
jone (social justice cleric)
7 months ago

Well I work as a sex worker AND an engineer…but it’s just too damn difficult to do both at the same time (not to mention the safety process violations! Wouldn’t I also need to wear a hard-hat on my ass…a hardass-hat?)

I’m sure some of the machine operators I’ve worked with would love to make it possible though, based on the occasional sexist comment.

And of the two jobs: the repair of big, sticky, oily, filthy machines is the easier, less potentially gross, and more entertaining one. (Men act like women can’t do the “hard jobs” because they don’t want us stealing all the fun work away from them. Truth).

heidi o'nuanain
heidi o'nuanain
7 months ago

It’s a challenge to keep remembering that a handful of women actually gave birth to these guys and that these guys are human, albeit deeply flawed.
clinging onto all that hatred, misogyny and desperately hoarded stupidity must be exhausting. How sad and tired they must constantly feel….*sigh*

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
7 months ago

@ Jone

Is that where the epithet ‘asshat’ comes from?

@ critical dragon

super star athlete is not “real work”

It used to be considered vulgar here for athletes to be paid. The Olympic spirit and all that. It’s why we have two types of rugby. There was quite a lot of politics involved. But it’s also one of the reasons rugby (union) is still seen as a ‘posh’ game and football has working class roots.

Same in cricket. Hence there used to be ‘Gentlemen vs Players’ games.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
7 months ago

This reminds me of all the people who think office workers don’t work, because they visited an office once, and people were talking to each other. And all those who think that librarians just read all day at the library, because they’ve been to a library once and seen a librarian reading a book. If they’ve seen something with their own eyes, that has to be all there is to it.

I don’t know much about sex work, but since it’s a customer service job, I imagine some amount of being nice and presentable is involved, and that takes effort. But I suppose MGTOWs think that that’s something women just do, so they probably don’t realise it’s something you should be compensated for.

Sheila Crosby
7 months ago

I concluded some time ago that every single job is harder than it looks. Since then I’ve wondered whether being a professional bullshitter might be an exception, but not hairdressers, grocery clerks, street sweepers, TV presenters …

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
7 months ago

The average intercourse time is little over 5min (date from google)

The singular for data is not “date”.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
7 months ago

I never have unclogged a toilet. If it’s like consensual sex, then I actually look forward to it. If it’s like sex work, I guess I will sell my apartment and go somewhere else if the toilets are clogged.

rv97
rv97
7 months ago

I can name a woman by her handle who makes a six figure income and she does sex work part time – she isn’t even into men, too. These miggots simply want to make men look even more pathetic – I don’t know if I could say they’re envious of these women but I guess I’m tempted to entertain the notion.

As for men who are sex workers I imagine they’re a bit few and far between.

Amtep
Amtep
7 months ago

But but… sex workers aren’t minimum-wage employees. They’re small business owners, and therefore conservatives should worship them.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@CriticalDragon1177

One could make the case that being an actor or a singer, or a super star athlete is not “real work” but look how much we pay people in those professions.

And being a corrupt politician is definitely not “work” by this definition, but I feel like every MGTOW in America probably voted for Trump.

@Lumipuna

The singular for data is not “date”.

Nor is it “anecdote” (a mistake many manospherians seem to make).

@Amtep
Ah, but the small business is question isn’t one that repairs generators or does mining or construction, so it’s not “real work” to them.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
7 months ago

@Lumipuna:

The singular for data is not “date”.

Tell that to the redpillers who routinely extrapolate AWALT based on one (heavily fictionalized) “field report” encounter.

the man, as always is doing the work. Paying a hooker too much so you do the bulk of the effort is like paying a plumber only so he can watch you unclog the toilet.

This guy is confusing effort with service. In therapy, the patient does most of the talking and puts in the effort required to get better, but that doesn’t mean the therapist isn’t working.

If he thinks sex workers truly don’t provide any valuable services above and beyond, say, a sock, then why do people pay large sums of money to engage a real live human being?

for this assumption to be true it should look like this:

1. Paying taxes

2. Minimum wage – The only requirement is legal age

3. Continuous work – with one short break in 8 hours

“For this assumption that I disagree with to be true, then my own unrealistic assumptions also need to be true.”

1. A lot of “under the table” work doesn’t get taxed. A lot of billionaires pay little or no tax on income, and a much lower capital gains rate.

2. Any work that isn’t compensated at exactly minimum wage doesn’t count as work? That rules out about 90% of the workforce (in the US), including their beloved plumbers, miners, and generator repair technicians.

3. Continuous work – so now only illegal sweatshop conditions count as work? And most of those workers don’t pay taxes or make anywhere near minimum wage.

In conclusion, no one anywhere is actually doing any work. That still doesn’t prove his argument that sex work is fundamentally different from any other type of work.

@Kat – Anecdatally, the limited interactions I’ve had with essential workers during the pandemic (groceries, pharmacy, doctor’s office) have all been with women. Men are working alongside them too, of course, but after the experiences of the last few months, MGTOWs can’t keep pretending that men are 100% responsible for running society.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Buttercup

In therapy, the patient does most of the talking and puts in the effort required to get better, but that doesn’t mean the therapist isn’t working.

Maybe that’s another part of why incels are so opposed to therapy: they think it’s a waste of money because they think they’re the ones doing the work.

Moggie
Moggie
7 months ago

@Allandrel:

I’m reminded of a post that made its way around social media a bit ago. It was a photo of a micrometer labeled “If you don’t know how to use this, you don’t deserve $15 an hour.”

I didn’t even know where to start with how wrong and awful that was.

I guess I don’t get it. My work never required me to use a micrometer, but I have one in my toolkit. When you buy a micrometer, it will come with brief instructions, and you’ll be using it like a pro within minutes, regardless of what your job is. It seems like a strange thing to pick to play the “my job is harder than yours” game. I bet the responses were a riot!

Angiportus Librarysaver
Angiportus Librarysaver
7 months ago

I have repaired generators, and I have used micrometers, and neither of them got me (or anyone else in the building) off. So, not like sex work.
Seriously, good and educational points like always.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
7 months ago

@Amtep : if only. Remember most sex workers aren’t independant, and proxenetism is a thing. In fact, I would argue that the specificity of sex work is that a lot of sex workers are forced into it because while most can do it, few want to do it.

@Buttercup : it’s not like their claim of only men doing work was credible in any sense beforehand. If a MGTOW was the last man on earth, I am pretty sure he would say nobody else do any work because the others are feeeeeemale.

@Moggie : they could take log tables and slide rules as items that do require at least minimum knowledge to use, are iconic for engineers (or at least to me), and fill a useful purpose (even if a computer is probably easier to use for that). I guess it would make entirely too much sense for them tho.

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
7 months ago

Does this doofus think that giving a blowjob is a passive act?

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
7 months ago

I was initially confused by “micrometer”. Now I get it’s some technical measuring tool, but here it probably has a different name because here, micrometer is a unit of distance.

Naglfar wrote:

Maybe we define pegging differently, but I thought it was the act of being penetrated by someone else with a strap-on. So how would he do it to himself? This is rather beside the point, but it stuck out to me.

There needs to be a proper technical definition for pegging. For example, the following issues need to be clarified:

Does it require an assisting partner, or just the one person to be penetrated?

Does the penetrated person need to be a man and/or AMAB?

Does the assisting partner need to be a woman and/or AFAB?

Does the penetration tool need to be pelvis-mounted (as opposed to, say, handheld or forehead-mounted)?

Does the penetration need to be anal?

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Lumipuna

Now I get it’s some technical measuring tool, but here it probably has a different name because here, micrometer is a unit of distance.

Micrometer is usually a unit of measure, but it appears that it is also the name of the measuring device. I usually refer to the tool as a “caliper” but I’ve heard both names.

Re: pegging
I’m not the expert, but Dan Savage originally had a vote that resulted in this term specifically to refer to a cis woman penetrating a cis man with a strap-on. He didn’t say anything at the time about mounting location or trans* people, but from what he did say at the time, it seems the answers to your questions are:
1. Yes, it requires an assisting partner, otherwise it’s just masturbation.
2. He originally said it needs to be a man, with no mention of AMAB people who aren’t men or of trans* men.
3. He said the penetrating partner did need to be a woman, so I’m not sure if non-women using a strap-on count, or about women who have penises.
4. He didn’t say anything limiting location but only mentioned cases of pelvic mounted strap-ons, possibly because that is usually where penises are.
5. He said it must be anal, but that could be because he was only thinking of cis men, who usually don’t have vaginas.

Since language is free to be used how people want, I guess it’s up to individuals how they want to use the term.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
7 months ago

@Naglfar
I was super confused when I came across that original context for the word pegging, IIRC in something on Savage Love concerning “the lesbian equivalent of pegging” (meaning one woman penetrating another with a strap-on dildo), since from context, I’d always assumed pegging just meant penetrating someone with a strap-on dildo.

I guess it’s just not one of those words you’ll learn in English class, whatever the official definition is.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Masse_mysteria

I guess it’s just not one of those words you’ll learn in English class, whatever the official definition is.

Yeah, I doubt many English classes teach the slang terms for somewhat uncommon sex acts.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
7 months ago

@Naglfar
That’s probably for the best. I seem to remember a classmate of mine trying to teach me some sex-related slang. I can’t remember what they said, but I’m guessing they meant something like “getting head” but said it like it meant sex in general.

I ended up getting most of the sex terms from fanfiction.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
7 months ago

If sex is nonessential work (or at least less important than generators), then incels can hardly argue that sex is a non-negotiable physical need like food or air.

I have a feeling, though, that MGTOWs still secretly think sex is essential. They just don’t want women being compensated in any way for it.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Buttercup
Of course, the real question is that if sex was so essential to MGTOWs and incels and they really wanted to avoid paying for it, they could have sex with each other. Though I doubt they can tolerate even each other for long enough.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
7 months ago

Thanks, Naglfar.

So I gather that, according to Savage, “pegging” should signify not just certain physical type of sexual play, but specifically such play in the social context of subverting the concept of cisheteronormative intercourse.

In the spirit of this purpose, it seems relevant that the penetration should be anal, in a practice that is iconic for providing a comparable (if not quite similar) substitute for vaginal penetration in (cis) men. If the penetrated partner does in fact have a vagina, that should not lessen the subversive effect of using the anus instead.

Likewise, the penetrating object should be a reasonably close substitute for the penis, but without actually involving one, in case the penetrating partner does in fact have a penis. Using a finger or hand would be organic (and thus directly involve the partner’s body), but a prosthetic penis is mechanically a closer susbstitute, especially since it can be mounted on the partner’s crotch. We should probably prescribe a fairly strictly defined configuration of a realistic dildo mounted approximately where a penis would be. Thus, pegging becomes physically strictly defined, paralleling penile-vaginal intercourse and parodying sexual normativity.

Notably (based on what I’ve heard), penile-anal intercourse can be very similar to penile-vaginal intercourse on the side of penile sensation, and conversely, dildo-vaginal can be very similar on the side of vaginal sensation. In dildo-anal intercourse, this similarity is more or less compromised for both actual partners, while the dildo and anus ironically unite in attempt to provide a fully realistic approximation of a penis and vagina for each other.

Ultimately, I don’t see a reason to limit the gender or genital anatomy of the partners involved in pegging. A cis man pegging a cis woman in abovementioned method would be (more) unusual and not subversive in the same way as a cis woman pegging a cis man, but it would be still definitely subversive, in a related way.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Lumipuna

So I gather that, according to Savage, “pegging” should signify not just certain physical type of sexual play, but specifically such play in the social context of subverting the concept of cisheteronormative intercourse.

a practice that is iconic for providing a comparable (if not quite similar) substitute for vaginal penetration in (cis) men.

It seems that’s a part of it. Savage has said that he thinks all straight men should do it to get a perspective for what it feels like to be penetrated.

Another reason to do it could be prostate stimulation; cis men have prostate glands that can be stimulated this way (though there are more efficient ways).

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Mass shooting in Nova Scotia. The killer was a rich white man, so it’ll be interesting to see if motive is ever covered in the media, or if we’re just never mentioning this crime again.

Man. The one silver lining of Covid-19 has been that there isn’t so many mass shootings anymore. But I’ve been fearing that mass violence would ramp back up again as people get increasingly stressed and see all sorts of online conspiracy theories about the virus.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@WWTH

Mass shooting in Nova Scotia. The killer was a rich white man, so it’ll be interesting to see if motive is ever covered in the media, or if we’re just never mentioning this crime again.

I’m guessing the latter. At the very least if it’s brought up it will be with sympathetic quotes from his family or trying to blame mental illness.

But I’ve been fearing that mass violence would ramp back up again as people get increasingly stressed and see all sorts of online conspiracy theories about the virus.

I’m rather worried about armed uprisings on a large scale, seeing as there have been armed protests at statehouses and Trump is literally calling for civil war on Twitter. Unlikely it will be an issue where I live, but I worry for Ohio and Michigan and the other states with protests.

Dalillama
Dalillama
7 months ago

@Naglfar

I’m rather worried about armed uprisings on a large scale, seeing as there have been armed protests at statehouses and Trump is literally calling for civil war on Twitter.

Fortunately these chuds have typically got the logistical organization capacity of a glue-huffing mayfly, and any such effort would instantly founder because nobody remembered to bring any food or gas, just a buncha guns and bullets. See the Malheur Maladroits a few years back for an example.

Robert
Robert
7 months ago

I replaced the toilet tank at our house a few years ago. It was hard work and the filthiest job I’ve ever done.

I’d rather do it again than be paid to have sex with the men in the OP.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Dalillama
The issue is, they’re backed by more powerful people, who might have better organization skills. For example, the DeVos organization.

Moggie
Moggie
7 months ago

@Dalillama:

Fortunately these chuds have typically got the logistical organization capacity of a glue-huffing mayfly, and any such effort would instantly founder because nobody remembered to bring any food or gas, just a buncha guns and bullets. See the Malheur Maladroits a few years back for an example.

What’s the betting that the various “reopen” protests are in fact centrally coordinated? Sure, the individuals you see protesting are not exactly impressive… but people said the same thing about the tea party, and look where that went.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Moggie
I’m almost certain they are. Seeing as virtually everything conservatives accuse left-wing groups of turns out to be something that right-wingers are actually doing is projection, I’ll bet at least some of the protestors are paid.

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
7 months ago

Oh, yeah, the protests are definitely are being centrally coordinated. It’s the Tea Party all over again.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
7 months ago

I’ve been expecting for a while that by 2040 or so they’d be needing to redraw the maps of North America, and that it would not turn out to be Quebec’s fault.

As of a week or so ago, I’m no longer the only one:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/14/1937064/-Trump-declares-himself-a-dictator-Blue-state-governors-organize-A-breakup-is-now-on-the-table

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Surplus
Doesn’t seem beyond reality. I’m fortunate to live in a blue state which is unlikely to be seeing as much direct conflict as some others, but this still sounds unpleasant.
I mostly worry about minority people stuck in red states. LGBTQIPA+, PoC, disabled people, etc who are stuck in red states. They will be in far more danger.

The worst part is, I think Trump might actually like this for a while (at least until he realizes what resources he’s lost).

Dalillama
Dalillama
7 months ago

@Naglfar

The issue is, they’re backed by more powerful people, who might have better organization skills. For example, the DeVos organization.

That’s why I specified logistics. Getting a few dozen, or even a few hundred, people to show up for a couple hours to shout and wave signs isn’t even in the same ballpark as running a military campaign. Here, we’re talking about people who had to cancel their DC rally because nobody actually gave the charter bus company a valid credit card number. That wasn’t the current round, it was a couple years back and I forget what they were supposedly protesting.

Amtep
Amtep
7 months ago

Yeah, I think we’re seeing the outlines of the successor states. There’s now a Midwestern pact around Michigan too.