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The “Incels Without Hate” subreddit celebrates … hate

By David Futrelle

The Incels Without Hate subreddit is supposed to be the good one, free of festering resentment and calls for (or threats of) mass murder. The subreddit’s rules specifically ban expressions of hatred, as well as “blanket statements assigning blame to a particular group of people for your problems.”

So why are the denizens of the sub openly cheering on hatred?

In a post today with dozens of upvotes, an incel calling himself BeertjeBombazijn makes a case for hate:

“Why is ‘no hate’ stressed so much?” he asks.

Isn’t it a kind of ritual submission to the system which inflicted to so much pain and heaped so much aggression on us?

How is “the system” aggressing against incels? Perhaps some assholes bullied you in school; that sucks, but it’s happened to a lot of us — including me — and most of us make an effort to process it and move on. Any anger that the public feels towards incels today is the result of incels’ abhorrent and hateful beliefs — not to mention the actual massacres that have been carried out by incels and celebrated by their incel fans.

Resentment is just the appropriate emotional reaction to not getting your dues and if you let resentment simmer and stew it turns to hate and aggression. After all, they live while we rot and they are withholding what’s due to us.

Women aren’t “withholding what’s due” to you, dude. They just don’t want to have sex with you, and their right to basic bodily autonomy trumps your desire for sex.

The self-hate we feel is just an internalization of their hatred and aggression.

Dude, virtually no one knew that “incels” were a thing until Elliot Rodger launched his murder spree and you guys cheered him on. You brought whatever hatred the public feels for you on yourselves.

It’s like a garrison posted in our brain, to keep us down and depressed, so that they are relieved even of the task of bullying us. We bully ourselves for them.

Aside from a few obsessed individuals, no one is interested in bullying you or having you bully yourselves. We want you to step back from incel forums — virtually all of them cesspits of self-replicating hate and self-hatred — and try to get yourselves healthy. You’re the ones who react with bitter anger towards those who have tried to help you.

It’s about time we stopped letting our oppressors dictate what we should feel and how to express it and instead own our emotions.

Giving in to your worst impulses isn’t the same as owning your emotions. When you truly own your emotions you take responsibility for them and for whatever sorry consequences that follow from them. Trying to drum up even more hate within incel communities is a losing strategy, and will only serve to make incels feel more alienated from society than they already are.

We know you’re hurting. We don’t want you hurting. We want you to take steps to pull yourselves out of the incel morass — and are willing to help, if you only let us. So far very few of you have.

Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.

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Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

Resentment is just the appropriate emotional reaction to not getting your dues and if you let resentment simmer and stew it turns to hate and aggression.

No incel will listen to me, but for anyone who will:
Resenting an entire segment of society is not good for you. In the past I’ve held all sorts of grudges against individuals for minor slights, and it hasn’t been good for my mental health. I can only assume it’s far worse to resent a large group like “all women.”

To any incels who truly want to be “without hate” (it’s unlikely any exist, but if one or two of them are merely confused):
Incels are a hate movement and a death cult. Get out while you can. I get that dry spells are hard, I’ve had them before. But I know that this isn’t the way out. Try to work things that interest you and on being a good person.

An Impish Pepper
An Impish Pepper
6 months ago

I think what makes it hard to form a group mostly intended for cis het white men without it turning toxic is that they really have nothing in common (except I guess groups like Life After Hate where they presumably share in the horror at what they used to believe). Contrast with groups of whatever other identity who have similar experiences of oppression with other people of that identity, and can even share experiences of oppression with other identities. Dudes like this can try to apply the language of social justice to themselves, but it can only come out as appropriation and twisting of the terms to mean something else entirely.

I think it’s important to remember that people can genuinely feel resentment for actual oppression by segments of society.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
6 months ago

More from the enlightening discussion over at Incels Without Hate:

[–]Throwmeawayoffcliff -1 points 4 hours ago
Why should someone have to be in a relationship with you or have sex if they don’t want to?

[–]TheSnowglobeFromHell 4 points 4 hours ago
They should want to to begin with. I’m a wonderful person, I am smart and I have plenty of qualities. I deserve it.

Say, TheSnowglobeFromHell, did you know that there are laws against forcing someone to “love” you? Check out the laws regarding abduction. The penalties are pretty severe. The laws against rape are also severe. And it turns out that these laws apply to everyone, even those who are (self-described) wonderful people.

NOBODY
NOBODY
6 months ago

Dudes like this can try to apply the language of social justice to themselves, but it can only come out as appropriation and twisting of the terms to mean something else entirely.

One even finds this IN leftist communities, men who conflate their sympathetic outrage with the oppressed, with actual oppression they have never been the target of. The “hearing about this awful thing is just as bad or worse than being a victim of awful thing” syndrome. Then next thing you know, they’ve worked themselves into positions of leadership, displaced women and POC, and everyone wonders how that happened.

And heaven help you if you challenge these entitled brats…they will whine and gaslight like the worst MRA. It’s another symptom of male privilege….incels and MRAs are just the most extreme example.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Kat

They should want to to begin with. I’m a wonderful person, I am smart and I have plenty of qualities. I deserve it.

It also may be a good opportunity for our friend to reflect on why people don’t want to. Also, if one must start conversations by saying how smart and wonderful one is, that shines doubt on how smart and wonderful they are.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
6 months ago

@Naglfar

As for me, I would like people to give me money. Lots of it.

They should want to to begin with. I’m a wonderful person, I am smart and I have plenty of qualities. I deserve it.

Moogue
Moogue
6 months ago

@incel

“Resentment is just the appropriate emotional reaction to not getting your dues and if you let resentment simmer and stew it turns to hate and aggression.”

I would agree if you said disappointment and frustration are the natural reactions to not getting an important goal met, (such as sex or dating), but frustration and disappointment are not resentment. Resentment is what happens when you describe things as “your dues”; ie. your entitlement is the problem and the reason why you’re feeling so badly. (Nothing in life is “your dues”- even stealing food is wrong.)

I’m sure there’s someone out there who would begrudge an incel for simply having normal feelings of disappointment, and that’s a problem, but it’s really the entitlement that makes people recoil. That and the fact that “hate and aggression” are presumed to be just the natural progression if frustration, or even resentment, in anyone over the age of toddlerhood. This could also be part of the reason of why you can’t get a date/sex, dissapointment is a part of even the best relationships (and life in general), and learning how to manage it without it growing stronger is a prerequisite of having a healthy, fulfilling relationship and life.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
6 months ago

I get that “Incels without hate” is probably an oxymoron and all, but I just have to appreciate the fact that there are many incel hangouts out there, and this individual can’t handle it that one of them purports to not want you to express the emotions he wants to express.

‘Cause if you find a community “for X, no Z allowed”, the thing to do is obviously to Z all over the place, because not doing so is oppression.

@Kat & Naglfar
You’re missing the point. TheSnowGlobeFromHell has qualities. People like that are few and far between. I wish I had qualities, but I don’t.

Moogue
Moogue
6 months ago

Edit- on reading the OP’s follow up comments, it appears that his “dues” refers to being free from verbal abuse, and not to getting sex. Weird way of putting it without explanation in a sub about being involuntary celibate. Seems almost like a troll for a Gotcha.

I’ll come back to this after I sleep.

occasional reader
occasional reader
6 months ago

Resentment is just the appropriate emotional reaction to not getting your dues and if you let resentment simmer and stew it turns to hate and aggression.

Nah, there are plenty of possible reactions to that (and only if something is really due to you, not that you think is automatically due to you), but you dream there are not so you can leave your hate on. It is not self hate, just self justification for violence.

Moggie
Moggie
6 months ago

Who describes themself as “a wonderful person”? That’s a red flag right there.

Amtep
Amtep
6 months ago

If they really believed that “oppression turns to resentment turns to hate” was a natural and rightful progression, they would be fine with being told that they are quite legitimately hated by women, black people, gay people, etc. (Since nearly all of them are straight white men) (Of course, most people don’t turn to hatred, but I’m going with their argument here.)

But they apply this principle only to themselves. Other people hating them? That’s oppression! They resent that. They hate those other people.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Moogue

I’m sure there’s someone out there who would begrudge an incel for simply having normal feelings of disappointment, and that’s a problem

I think the main people who would begrudge an incel for that are other incels. If one showed up and said that “you know, I’m having a hard time getting a girlfriend, and I’m a little bit disappointed that the girl I asked out declined, but I don’t have any hard feelings and I’ll try again with someone else,” the sub would probably pile on about how he’s not a real incel and is actually a white knight mangina or something. That’s part of why it’s so toxic: they bash anyone who expresses disappointment in a safe and healthy way rather than as resentment and rage.

@Moggie
IIRC Kim Jong-Il described himself as a wonderful leader, and we all know how that worked out.

@Amtep

If they really believed that “oppression turns to resentment turns to hate” was a natural and rightful progression, they would be fine with being told that they are quite legitimately hated by women, black people, gay people, etc.

B-b-but, those groups aren’t really oppressed. They’re so much more privileged than incels, who are the most oppressed people ever. They’re just faking their oppression, incels are the real victims! /s

I just checked the sub and one of the top posts thinks that the Netflix show Too Hot To Handle will “blackpill” thousands of men because to win they have to give up sex. Uhh, this isn’t the first time men have been asked to not have sex, and most men who aren’t having sex don’t become monsters.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
6 months ago

We bully ourselves for them.

That’s one of the things I’ve always found so strange about incels. Many of them were/are being bullied, so for support they…turn to a group that reinforces and amplifies the bullying? All those -cel groups are like 3 a.m. jerk brain on steroids.

Yet for some reason, verbal abuse from other incels doesn’t cause resentment or hatred. It’s OK for incels to tell each other “you’re ugly and worthless”, but God forbid a woman on Tinder doesn’t match with them.

It’s a cult that attracts narcissists with a strong external locus of control. Women are just a handy target.

TB Tabby
TB Tabby
6 months ago

Look around you, incels. Look at the messages telling you to stop fretting about not getting laid and actually find something you can enjoy. They’re coming from the “normies,” the “simps,” the “cucks.” Any negative messages you get from them are a direct response to the negativity you express towards them. Meanwhile, the messages telling you that your life is worthless, that you’ll never amount to anything because of the shape of your chin (bullshit), and that you should kill yourself come from your fellow incels, the ones that are supposed to be “helping” you. The “bullies” are trying to ease your suffering, while your “support group” is doing the bullying.

You can stop this any time you wish. Just stop going to those hateful echo chambers and do something, anything else. Your cage not only isn’t locked, but the cell door is wide open.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@TB Tabby

You can stop this any time you wish. Just stop going to those hateful echo chambers and do something, anything else. Your cage not only isn’t locked, but the cell door is wide open.

I wonder on some level if it could be like Stockholm Syndrome, that after being bullied so long, they become dependent on it and would miss it if they left. They may have so thoroughly internalized this that they need constant reinforcement or else they feel weird. I’m not sure how one gets out of that frame of mind, but there must be a way. Problem is, any time anyone suggests that incels get therapy, they whole-heartedly reject the idea as a thing for “normies.”

Victorious Parasol
6 months ago

OTish, ‘cos I could use an antidote to the incel hatred:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-52303859

Captain Tom Moore is originally from West Yorkshire, which Alan has informed us is the best part of Yorkshire.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 months ago

@ Vicky P

Indeed; and we also produced the (current) best Doctor Who, and the best Star Trek captain!

Someone recently bumped into God in Yorkshire and asked what he was doing. “Same as everyone.” he replied “Working from home.” 😉

Victorious Parasol
6 months ago

@ Alan

HA!

bridgies_burning
bridgies_burning
6 months ago

I learnt about incels for the first time here on this blog. Then I surfed in their forums for a bit and while being disgusted by their far-right tendencies, their vast use of a thesaurus with ridiculous words and names (stacy, chad, normie) and those borrowed form toxic alt-right circles Redpillers, PUAs (alpha beta, redpill, bluepill, mangina, white knight) I couldn’t but notice cases they described a bit similar to my situation.

Feelings of loneliness, anxiety, misery, extreme sadness intensified by the lack of friends and romance, self pity and self hate, an existence full of fears, a life with no risk and no confidence are things all familiar to me. Often I would stand in front of a mirror and call myself a coward and a loser, then laugh hysterically.

I knew about the classical “stop hating yourself and be confident”. I mean, seriously confident for what? Or with what? It’s not me, it’s not in my nature. If I suddenly become “confident”, I’ll be only delusional. But sometimes I would fake confidence and it would work for a moment or two, next time all that facade would disappear and there would stand the same poor creature, in all its powerless and helpless glory. That’s why I found their (incels’) dismissive behaviour towards those that would come up with helpful advice quite similar to mine. But I never ended up hating the opposite sex or anyone else for that. Never. Loneliness isn’t an excuse for hatred or resentment. I even found soulmates. And they are all women. With similar (if not worse) condition.
Anyway, I don’t want to speak of them form a certain moral high ground, in a patronizing tone, to show that I am above them. But I know one thing for sure: they should stop reading PUA content or Jordan Peterson style stuff and take them for granted. It doesn’t help, only intensifies their helplnessness and hate.

Moggie
Moggie
6 months ago

I hope it’s not too disrespectful to Captain Moore, but when he said “I’m surrounded by the right sort of people”, I immediately thought “please don’t do a Milkshake Duck on us, sir”.

An Impish Pepper
An Impish Pepper
6 months ago

Not sure that not getting sex should be compared to stealing food, the most famous Ethics 101 problem.

Sheila Crosby
6 months ago

Capt Tom Moore is wonderful. Of course he is. But it shouldn’t be necessary. It’s necessary because the tories have starved the NHS of funds for the last 9 years. And they STILL don’t have PPE
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/led-by-donkeys-nhs-message-houses-of-parliament-boris-johnson-1-6611341

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 months ago

@ Shiela

Indeed. I’m always wary of feel good stories that are actually dire examples of what’s wrong with societies.

Like those social media things of children setting up lemon aid stalls. You never see the headline “Kid forced into child labour to fund medical treatment…”

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
6 months ago

@Alan:
Or worse, when what you should be hearing is ‘Kid forced into child labour to fund bogus medical treatment’, since a number of those ‘feel good’ fund raising stories end up being for quack clinics that promise miracle cancer cures with coffee enemas or something similar, and the NHS was actually quite right not to fund that treatment but is still getting dragged through the mud in the media for being ‘heartless’ because of it.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw, Jenora Feuer
I also am annoyed by the “feel good” stories about disabled people that belittle them and their achievements in favor of lamenting things they struggle with. Or the ones about neurodiverse people that do what Jenora mentioned and promote quack cures or fake charities, like Autism $peaks or MMS (aka bleach).

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 months ago

@ jenora

Oh yeah. I was having a discussion recently about supposed ‘death panels’ us poor socialised medicine victims have to put up with. I pointed out all the legal hoops hospitals have to jump through just to withdraw treatment for hopeless cases.

There was also “I can chose what treatment I want!”. I tried to explain the NHS only does science based stuff.

Although…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Centre_for_Integrative_Care,_Glasgow

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw
That’s a thing? I’m a bit surprised the NHS funds that center, one would think that in a time of a pandemic they’d be moving to more proven methods of care.

There was also “I can chose what treatment I want!”. I tried to explain the NHS only does science based stuff.

Can we try to treat my various dermatological issues by giving me a million dollars? I think that would help, so I choose that treatment.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 months ago

@ Naglfar

That’s a thing?

The NHS stopped providing homeopathic treatments generally in 2018; and most of their homeopathic hospitals transitioned to conventional medicine.

The NHS had been very candid that they knew the treatments were rubbish; but they stopped the ‘worried well’ cluttering up doctors’ surgeries, and the placebo effect could assist standard treatment.

Finally though the danger of people seeing homeopathy and related as alternative medicine rather than complimentary medicine outweighed the benefits.

The Glasgow centre appears to have a niche function, but it will be interesting to see how long it can stick around in its current form.

Victorious Parasol
6 months ago

There was also “I can choose what treatment I want!”. I tried to explain the NHS only does science based stuff.

I’ve heard this argument, too … and I don’t hesitate to point out that if your insurance company declines to pay for certain treatments, you aren’t getting much of a choice. If it weren’t a HIPAA violation, I could tell hundreds of stories of doctors fighting for the right to treat their patients in accordance with the current standards of treatment (whatever that may mean for a given diagnosis). As a diabetic, I can say that my own treatment options are not governed solely by my physician, but that he continues to do his best, and luckily we’ve hit on a combination that works to keep my diabetes under control.

Heck, most Americans at one point have struggled with keeping their doctor when their insurance changes (either due to a job change or an employer moving to a different plan). That certainly affects one’s choice in treatment.

In an emergency, you don’t have time to weigh the options. Back when Mr. Parasol was rushing me to the ER, we didn’t know that the nearest hospital was in my insurance network. It was sheer luck that it was, just as we were lucky enough to pick the hospital that was the local leader in stroke treatment.

It’s nice to be lucky, but I’d rather not depend on luck.

If the feel-good stories serve any purpose beyond the “oh, isn’t that sweet?” reaction, it’s to give us an opportunity to look at our current system and make whatever changes are necessary.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 months ago

Re: medical choice

I was once selected as a bone marrow donor. There are two ways they can collect.

“We can give you drugs for a week to boost the stemcell count; then we filter your blood. The side effects can be nausea, fatigue, soreness, stiffness, and restricted movement…or we can drill a hole in your pelvis.”

“What’s the downside of that?”

“We drill a hole in your pelvis”

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Alan Robertshaw
Which did you end up doing?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 months ago

@ Naglfar

I went for the drilling. It has a better chance of success for younger recipients. They also offered me all the free diamorphine I wanted (not a fan of general anaesthesia)

In the end though I was stood down. I must confess I still hope to this day that was because they found a better match.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
6 months ago

@Alan:
Hasn’t been helped by the fact that Prince Charles was a big supporter of homeopathy, I presume.

Of course, you want a rant about people doing fundraising for bogus treatments and credulous media reports, Orac at Respectful Insolence has done those rants multiple times. Then again, he’s actually an oncological surgeon, so he generally knows what he’s talking about on cancer treatment.

Yeah, for bone marrow donation, drilling a hole into the bone is usually the best way of getting a sample. It’s not a pleasant experience, but it’s generally over with quickly.

(A friend in Montreal needed a bone marrow donation at one point, but I and most of the people I knew weren’t eligible donors anyway; Emru sadly had some pretty specific immunological requirements.)