By David Futrelle
So over in the Men’s Rights subreddit, they’re discussing whether or not “LGBT men” have it better than straight men, because of course they are. (I can only wonder what they think the “L” in LGBT stands for.) And naturally, some think that straight men are the ones getting the short end of the stick, at least in the so-called sexual marketplace.
As a commenter called TC1827 puts it:
Sure, I mean, gay guys still get beaten up for holding hands in public, but straight men are the ones who have a hard time because … they’ve convinced themselves that all women demand to have their dinners paid for. Such oppression! Such subjugation! It’s truly tragic.
Elsewhere in the discussion, another commenter adds this, er, insight:
That elk? This elk is a little confused.
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I’ve had no problems at all dating elks.
The word “as” is doing a lot of work here.
I get the feeling that if a woman tried to pay for dinner on a date with one of these men, they’d melt down about how it’s emasculating them. I feel sorry for that woman.
Is he confusing gay men with trans* women, assuming all gay men are drag queens, or am I just reading way too much into this.
Fellas, is it gay to have magnificent antlers?
@Moggie
Is it gay to envy someone else’s magnificent antlers?
The guy does have legitimate concern. It’s pretty darn sexist to expect from men to make the first move and pay for the first few dates. There shouldn’t be such expectation. People should be able to do things as they prefer. Do they prefer trying to attract potential partners? Do they prefer to try to seduce a potential partner? Your “dating habits and strategies” shouldn’t be imposed by gender roles and stupid traditions like that. Of course this idiot has a bad case of “the grass is greener somewhere else”. Traditionnal women have to contend with creepers, people who think their sexuality is a merchandise, spend a fortune on beauty products and image issues linked to the nature of the “competition”. Homosexual men will frequently copy the same dynamics and of couse have to deal with homophobia and the difficulties of finding a partner.
“Traditional women”? Please elaborate.
Who initiates dating and who does not can be culturally dependent too, but misogyny is usually so steeped in ethnocentricity (what we see and mock here usually brands itself as ‘white European,’ other brands are available) that misogynists usually don’t notice.
Ate told me that where she is from, the first overtures are usually on the women’s part.
I suspect it may be because, when we were first dating all those years ago, the men seemed to have done a nationwide number on everyone by convincing the women that the men were in short supply, to use a marketing term that I don’t like applying to people, but can’t think of a more suitable one at 6 AM.
I dislike it intensely when men insist on paying and then act like they own me because they paid for my food. Of course I then have enough information to know I don´t want to see them again but I still have to deal with their indigence.
@Cats In Shiny Hats
By “traditionnal women” I mean women who have accepted or even embraced traditionnal gender roles and expectations of their particular culture.
I
Well maybe. But the the misogyny of manospherians is multilayered and complicated. Let’s not forget that women are gold-diggers and their only purpose of dating you is to empty your wallet. Some of the vilest of these dudes would often say that you should try to make her pay at first. That would be a good lesson to the ‘materialistic bitch’. I wonder if they claim to be so good and generous, why do they even date a ‘materialiatic woman’? If I see a person values me only for money I would not stay a second with them. Anyway, manospherians often contradict themselves because they have one bug in their stomach, in their head, everywhere: MISOGYNY.
@Naglfar
Also, (like LaMaria said) then that woman would not “owe” them anything, and how would that be fair? They couldn’t even complain about it online!
Ha, I wonder what “traditional roles” would those be for me in Poland. Those from 200 years ago? (Women are supposed to stay at home, mourn their male family members who died while rebelling against Russia/Prussia/Austria, and plan for insurrection with what is at hand) Those from 50 years ago? (Women should go out and work! Women engineers! Women truck drivers!) Those espoused by right-wing politicians now? (Women in the kitchen?) Who knows.
@Masse_mysteria
And they couldn’t even use the whole thing to guilt women about sex, because these men seem to believe that buying dinner entitles them to sex. This is clearly an untenable situation.
The list of people who can be straight-up racist when it comes to dating includes:
– Women
– Men
– Non-binary people
– Everyone
I’m sorry for everyone who has experienced racism in the dating world, but it’s certainly not a straight-male-exclusive experience.
Question: are MRAs convinced that it is always men who have to ask the women out because (a) it’s actually true (b) there is a distinct shortage of women ill-judged enough to ask them out (c) it’s relatively rare for anyone, regardless of gender – except self-proclaimed “pick up artists” – to ask someone out before having even talked to them like a normal human being first, and MRAs don’t talk to women like normal human beings (d) a woman taking control and asking an MRA out would cause them to wet their imperfectly-cleaned pants in any event; or (e) all of the above except (a)?
I choose (e)
@Not Edward
I think it’s (e) all of the above except (a), though especially (d). They have stated before that they want women to do more asking out, but I can almost guarantee that this would result in meltdowns about how supposedly emasculating that is.
@Naglfar
And, if the woman doing the asking was not up to the MRA’s completely normal and understandable standards, endless rants about how women are so conceited that some uggo dared to ask out a man.
@Masse_mysteria
And even if the woman was up to his standards, he’d complain about how uppity she was to think she could ask him out rather than waiting for some pickup “game” crap.
I am aware that female MRAs and other conservative women do exist. Could it maybe just be that MRAs are so repulsive that even people with similar views don’t want to date them?
Bit O/T (ok, a lot o/t) but this may be of use to Brit Mammotheers. It’s the guidance for the police as to what you can and can’t be out and about for under the Coronavirus Act.
https://www.college.police.uk/What-we-do/COVID-19/Documents/What-constitutes-a-reasonable-excuse.pdf
“I can only wonder what they think the ‘L’ in LGBT stands for.”
Lucky?
Thank you, @Allan. It’s good for the information to be as clear as possible.
@Alan, I’ve been looking forlornly out my window at my car, parked in the street and getting dirtier and dirtier. Maybe washing it would count as exercise.
@ moggie
I believe it’s still the law that you have to write “Also available in white” in the dirt.
@ opposable thumbs
Bitteschon!
Y’know, I think the core of the MRA complaint is just this:
1. When I go about my day, I never think about other people. It’s all me me me all the time.
2. When I date someone, I’m expected to think about the other person. Since I’m used to thinking of only myself, this is something I equate to oppression.
3. All the other people I date are women.
4. Given this, all the people who make me think of other people are women.
5. This cannot possibly be an artifact of my gender bias in choosing people to date, but rather women engaging in a gender conspiracy against me.
6. Since I am white/normal, my perspective must be universal among men.
7. Zod Ergo Dilettantism, heterosexual dating is oppression of all men by all women.
… if they weren’t so self-centered as to think their own experience universal and to believe that thinking of others is oppression (for them, women thinking of their needs is simply a command issued to women by the universe itself), I don’t think they could possibly arrive at their conclusion.