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MRA: Straight men have it harder than gay men because the heterosexual “dating world is still about the subjugation of men and the elevation of women”

Woman oppressing men, one at a time

By David Futrelle

So over in the Men’s Rights subreddit, they’re discussing whether or not “LGBT men” have it better than straight men, because of course they are. (I can only wonder what they think the “L” in LGBT stands for.) And naturally, some think that straight men are the ones getting the short end of the stick, at least in the so-called sexual marketplace.

As a commenter called TC1827 puts it:

TC1827 22 points 4 days ago 
When it comes to dating yes because of norms. Men are still expected to initiate, pay, mind read, do everything "correctly" while women can act how they want. The heteronormative dating world is still about the oppression and subjugation of men and the elevation of women. Men are attacked for daring to want a fair deal while women can be straight up racist when it comes to dating and men are attacked for calling them out on it. So on that area, LGBT men have it easier, as long as they overcome homophobia and the very limited dating pool

Sure, I mean, gay guys still get beaten up for holding hands in public, but straight men are the ones who have a hard time because … they’ve convinced themselves that all women demand to have their dinners paid for. Such oppression! Such subjugation! It’s truly tragic.

Elsewhere in the discussion, another commenter adds this, er, insight:

My brother who is of that elk has told me that some gay dudes really just want to be women and will act as such in a relationship

That elk? This elk is a little confused.

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Michael S Goodman
Michael S Goodman
6 months ago

I’ve had no problems at all dating elks.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

as long as they overcome homophobia

The word “as” is doing a lot of work here.

they’ve convinced themselves that all women demand to have their dinners paid for.

I get the feeling that if a woman tried to pay for dinner on a date with one of these men, they’d melt down about how it’s emasculating them. I feel sorry for that woman.

some gay dudes really just want to be women

Is he confusing gay men with trans* women, assuming all gay men are drag queens, or am I just reading way too much into this.

Moggie
Moggie
6 months ago

Fellas, is it gay to have magnificent antlers?

Bananananana dakry: Quarantine-Haired, still Fat and Deranged
Bananananana dakry: Quarantine-Haired, still Fat and Deranged
6 months ago

@Moggie

Is it gay to envy someone else’s magnificent antlers?

epronovost
epronovost
6 months ago

The guy does have legitimate concern. It’s pretty darn sexist to expect from men to make the first move and pay for the first few dates. There shouldn’t be such expectation. People should be able to do things as they prefer. Do they prefer trying to attract potential partners? Do they prefer to try to seduce a potential partner? Your “dating habits and strategies” shouldn’t be imposed by gender roles and stupid traditions like that. Of course this idiot has a bad case of “the grass is greener somewhere else”. Traditionnal women have to contend with creepers, people who think their sexuality is a merchandise, spend a fortune on beauty products and image issues linked to the nature of the “competition”. Homosexual men will frequently copy the same dynamics and of couse have to deal with homophobia and the difficulties of finding a partner.

Cats In Shiny Hats
Cats In Shiny Hats
6 months ago

“Traditional women”? Please elaborate.

Kevin
Kevin
6 months ago

Who initiates dating and who does not can be culturally dependent too, but misogyny is usually so steeped in ethnocentricity (what we see and mock here usually brands itself as ‘white European,’ other brands are available) that misogynists usually don’t notice.
Ate told me that where she is from, the first overtures are usually on the women’s part.
I suspect it may be because, when we were first dating all those years ago, the men seemed to have done a nationwide number on everyone by convincing the women that the men were in short supply, to use a marketing term that I don’t like applying to people, but can’t think of a more suitable one at 6 AM.

LaMaria
LaMaria
6 months ago

I dislike it intensely when men insist on paying and then act like they own me because they paid for my food. Of course I then have enough information to know I don´t want to see them again but I still have to deal with their indigence.

epronovost
epronovost
6 months ago

@Cats In Shiny Hats

By “traditionnal women” I mean women who have accepted or even embraced traditionnal gender roles and expectations of their particular culture.

bridges_burning
bridges_burning
6 months ago

I

Well maybe. But the the misogyny of manospherians is multilayered and complicated. Let’s not forget that women are gold-diggers and their only purpose of dating you is to empty your wallet. Some of the vilest of these dudes would often say that you should try to make her pay at first. That would be a good lesson to the ‘materialistic bitch’. I wonder if they claim to be so good and generous, why do they even date a ‘materialiatic woman’? If I see a person values me only for money I would not stay a second with them. Anyway, manospherians often contradict themselves because they have one bug in their stomach, in their head, everywhere: MISOGYNY.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
6 months ago

@Naglfar

I get the feeling that if a woman tried to pay for dinner on a date with one of these men, they’d melt down about how it’s emasculating them.

Also, (like LaMaria said) then that woman would not “owe” them anything, and how would that be fair? They couldn’t even complain about it online!

ziroonderel
ziroonderel
6 months ago

Ha, I wonder what “traditional roles” would those be for me in Poland. Those from 200 years ago? (Women are supposed to stay at home, mourn their male family members who died while rebelling against Russia/Prussia/Austria, and plan for insurrection with what is at hand) Those from 50 years ago? (Women should go out and work! Women engineers! Women truck drivers!) Those espoused by right-wing politicians now? (Women in the kitchen?) Who knows.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Masse_mysteria
And they couldn’t even use the whole thing to guilt women about sex, because these men seem to believe that buying dinner entitles them to sex. This is clearly an untenable situation.

Viscaria
Viscaria
6 months ago

Women can be straight up racist when it comes to dating and men are attacked for calling them out on it.

The list of people who can be straight-up racist when it comes to dating includes:

– Women
– Men
– Non-binary people
– Everyone

I’m sorry for everyone who has experienced racism in the dating world, but it’s certainly not a straight-male-exclusive experience.

Not Edward
Not Edward
6 months ago

Question: are MRAs convinced that it is always men who have to ask the women out because (a) it’s actually true (b) there is a distinct shortage of women ill-judged enough to ask them out (c) it’s relatively rare for anyone, regardless of gender – except self-proclaimed “pick up artists” – to ask someone out before having even talked to them like a normal human being first, and MRAs don’t talk to women like normal human beings (d) a woman taking control and asking an MRA out would cause them to wet their imperfectly-cleaned pants in any event; or (e) all of the above except (a)?

EyeHeartSpiders
EyeHeartSpiders
6 months ago

I choose (e)

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Not Edward
I think it’s (e) all of the above except (a), though especially (d). They have stated before that they want women to do more asking out, but I can almost guarantee that this would result in meltdowns about how supposedly emasculating that is.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
6 months ago

@Naglfar

I can almost guarantee that this would result in meltdowns about how supposedly emasculating that is.

And, if the woman doing the asking was not up to the MRA’s completely normal and understandable standards, endless rants about how women are so conceited that some uggo dared to ask out a man.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Masse_mysteria
And even if the woman was up to his standards, he’d complain about how uppity she was to think she could ask him out rather than waiting for some pickup “game” crap.

I am aware that female MRAs and other conservative women do exist. Could it maybe just be that MRAs are so repulsive that even people with similar views don’t want to date them?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 months ago

Bit O/T (ok, a lot o/t) but this may be of use to Brit Mammotheers. It’s the guidance for the police as to what you can and can’t be out and about for under the Coronavirus Act.

https://www.college.police.uk/What-we-do/COVID-19/Documents/What-constitutes-a-reasonable-excuse.pdf

bekabot
bekabot
6 months ago

“I can only wonder what they think the ‘L’ in LGBT stands for.”

Lucky?

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
6 months ago

Thank you, @Allan. It’s good for the information to be as clear as possible.

Moggie
Moggie
6 months ago

@Alan, I’ve been looking forlornly out my window at my car, parked in the street and getting dirtier and dirtier. Maybe washing it would count as exercise.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 months ago

@ moggie

I believe it’s still the law that you have to write “Also available in white” in the dirt.

@ opposable thumbs

Bitteschon!

Crip Dyke
6 months ago

Y’know, I think the core of the MRA complaint is just this:

1. When I go about my day, I never think about other people. It’s all me me me all the time.

2. When I date someone, I’m expected to think about the other person. Since I’m used to thinking of only myself, this is something I equate to oppression.

3. All the other people I date are women.

4. Given this, all the people who make me think of other people are women.

5. This cannot possibly be an artifact of my gender bias in choosing people to date, but rather women engaging in a gender conspiracy against me.

6. Since I am white/normal, my perspective must be universal among men.

7. Zod Ergo Dilettantism, heterosexual dating is oppression of all men by all women.

… if they weren’t so self-centered as to think their own experience universal and to believe that thinking of others is oppression (for them, women thinking of their needs is simply a command issued to women by the universe itself), I don’t think they could possibly arrive at their conclusion.

Kevin
Kevin
6 months ago

@ Alan

Thanks for the advice. Good to know where we stand, especially after an overly officious copper told someone off just for taking the air in their own front garden.

Right-Wing Femboy
Right-Wing Femboy
5 months ago

More proof that feminism hates gender nonconforming men. The amount of leftists on Twitter confused about why there’s so many right-wing GNC men will never cease to be hilarious.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
5 months ago

What is this alleged “proof”? Because I’m not seeing it.

Naglfar
Naglfar
5 months ago

@Right-Wing Femboy

More proof that feminism hates gender nonconforming men.

[citation needed]

I and most feminists I know fully support GNC people. A lot of my friends are GNC, and I’m rather different from stereotypes myself (though I’m a woman, not a man). I have yet to see feminists hate GNC men (with the exception of TERFs, but most feminists hate TERFs and TERFs hate everyone who isn’t white cishet and conforming).

The amount of leftists on Twitter confused about why there’s so many right-wing GNC men will never cease to be hilarious.

I haven’t seen this confusion, mainly because I haven’t seen many right wing GNC men. I’m sure there are some, but almost all the right wing men I know of are stereotypically masculine.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

MRA’s aren’t GNC though. At least not as a group. I’m sure there are individuals who are. Typically, MRA dudes are more likely to mock men who don’t embrace masculine gender roles and they like to accuse feminists of trying to keep men from being traditionally male. Hating women isn’t exactly non-conformist for men either.

Facts
Facts
5 months ago

Yeah the mainstream MRA movement certainly isn’t tolerate to GNC males, the closest ‘non-feminist’ groups that exist are ‘Pro-Male Collective’ or ‘LeftWingMaleAdvocates’.

They aggressively ban anybody that even remotely espouses manosphere, MGTOW, ‘redpill’, and ‘right wing mra’ ideas or shame men for being ‘feminine’ from entering their spaces, but its a shame they have so much bad experiences with TERFs to not be open minded to Feminism.

They hate gender roles but call them ‘anti-male’ instead of patriarchal because they ‘oppress men from being able to be free’, and alot of people are generally very left leaning on everything including worker’s rights but not exactly on ‘Feminism’.

They are radical on some things because they feel threatened by forces from ‘both the right and left that are not sincere about abolishing gender roles’ they claim but themselves seem genuinely very sincere on providing a space where men can break gender norms and express their emotions including if they cry.

Oh well, at the very least they could be open minded to liberal feminist perspectives in constructive debates hopefully?

I’m sure if their channels get big enough there could be one in the future. Idk what I think, but gender role based oppression seems to come from both genders for some reason. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Who are the people on r/FemaleDatingStrategy or ‘the white feather movement’ of the 1910s seen as by liberal feminists?