By David Futrelle
So I’ve done it: I’ve found the weirdest and most delusional take on the Coronavirus yet, and it comes not from the incels or the MGTOWs or the Trump administration but rather from the “Gender Critical” subreddit, the main hangout of Reddit’s TERFs.
You may need a stiff drink to get through the whole post.
“With so many people forced to work from home,” someone called itsnotaboutewe began.
we should spare a thought for all the TIMs who are now unable to receive outside validation for their delusions.
Just remember that “TIM,” in TERF-speak, means “Trans-Identified Male,” i.e. what the rest of us know as a trans woman.
What happens to the man who calls himself a woman and who usually wears makeup, heels, and a smart pencil skirt to work when he no longer has an audience for his performance?
I’m going to go out on a limb and say “nothing.” Nothing happens to trans women that doesn’t happen to anyone else forced to work at home.
Does he sit in front of his home computer in pyjama bottoms without his wig and cry into his coffee because he hasn’t been told by co-workers how lovely he looks this morning?
If there’s any crying into coffee going on it might have to do with the fact that we’re in the midst of a horrifying and surreal global pandemic that could easily kill as many as 1.7 million Americans and millions more across the world, not to mention leaving billions in precarious financial situations. That all makes me a bit sad.
How will they cope without the constant validation they need to function as mentally ill misogynistic men in a society that no longer prioritises them?
Yes, the people who have to fight for the right to use the correct public bathrooms are truly the “prioritized” ones in contemporary society.
Does the fact that way more males than females are dying from covid-19 plunge their self identification into turmoil?
I”m going to say no.
Due to the different death rates between the sexes, and the fact that this virus doesn’t give a shit about how you self-identify, I think coronavirus has feminist leanings and is more than a bit terfy.
Yes, that’s right, a TERF has just declared that the coronavirus is also a TERF, because it kills more men than women and makes trans women sad.
Again, I’m not saying this; a TERF is saying this.
Itsnotaboutewe’s post got some 800 upvotes on the so-called Gender Critical subreddit, and inspired more than a hundred comments, many of which are as unlovely and nonsensical as the original post:
According to Artemis_Jade,
The OP’s question is very valid. Trans comes down to “I want to be TREATED as if I were the opposite sex.” So then, is it possible to be trans if you are alone on a desert island?
c1ar3 joked
If a trans falls in a forest and no one is around to hear xer, does xe make a sound?
tervacious made the same joke:
This gave me the giggles. If a tree falls in the ladies toilets, does it make a trans sound?
jennywhistle agreed
This is what I hate about transgenderism. They can’t deny it wouldn’t exist in a vacuum. All that matters is how everyone else sees you.
soundsfromoutside sounded more than a little like an incel or a MGTOW hungering for the apocalypse because they think it will return society back to its “normal” gender roles:
This pandemic and economic crash is going to wake a lot of people up to reality. We had too much time on our hands, we were comfortable, we were spoiled-all of us. We worried about shit that didn’t matter, fought over things that led up to nothing.
Now, we are right back to our primitive roots: survival. Food, medicine, our families, our safety. We are going to see a rise in deaths, a rise a crime. We aren’t going to be worried about who is wearing what when our parents and grandparents are in the hospital. Pronouns, names, clothing, these are all nonproblems now (undoubtedly, some people will still try to make this about them).
This gleeful celebration of other people’s (imagined) misery is not really a good look, Gender Crits — especially when you’re trying to pretend to be a progressive civil rights movement, much as the Men’s Rights Activists do.
I found only one comment in the thread that took serious issue with the OP. Someone called 54321_Sun wrote:
This is rude and bullying, and beneath gender critical thought, I hope.
I come to this sub to feel validated, but when I see things like this, I start to get sick to my stomach, because I know that these type of posts can be used against us, rightfully so.
Naturally, the other Gender Crits voted this comment down below zero, because that’s what happens in a hate subreddit when anyone expresses similar concerns.
Bigoted assholes don’t like to be told not to be bigoted assholes, I guess.
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Hello, reptillians was invented by david ike who is an anti semite. It is antisemitic conspiracy theory. Comparing jewish people to reptiles and showing that they have green skin is something that anti semites already did for more than 100 years. It is not just a silly thing but specially anti semitic.
All of the awfullness aside.
Is there even clear gender difference in mortality rate?
I only read about that concerning china and there they assumed it was because the majority of men over 50 smoke, while most women don’t. Smoking and some of the chronic illnesses that are associated with it seem to be a big risk factor for a bad to deadly progression of the virus.
So it seems to come down to what at least in parts of Asia and the Middle East ist the difference between masculine/feminine behavoir, not your chromosomes.
@: Valentin – yeah The Reptilians are basically a way to be an oldscool Antisemite of the Elders of Zion Variety, while mixing it with biological racism and having plausible deniability.
@Naglfar
Must suck when you spend all your time telling yourself and others that something you know you have is a biological, inborn thing everyone can see from a mile away and then find that no, it is not that and you have been a jerk just for the heck of it.
Years ago I read something written by an older butch woman who disliked how there were suddenly so many transmen everywhere. She felt that because of that, she got misgendered more often because people were being “respectful” and calling her a man. I was so confused because while I understood she didn’t like it, I couldn’t make out what she wanted. Surely more rigid norms would be bad for those who are gender non-conforming?
Viscaria, on a TERF joke:
I guess it’s funny because it highlights the general TERF premise that any non-woman things are equally not-belonging in women’s toilet, be it men or trees or trans women.
It’s also riffing on the old meme about tree falling and making a sound. And alluding the stereotype that trans women’s voice sounds masculine or otherwise unusual. And alluding the general idea of a trans woman falling and hurting herself.
Re the “feminist” nature of SARS-CoV2
A virus that kills men slightly more than women and doesn’t discriminate based on anyone’s individual wrongdoings is about the least efficient imaginable agent for reducing misogyny in this world.
Sometimes I wonder if TERFs secretly hate men as much as much as they hate trans women, or if they just haven’t thought things through.
@Anonymous
I recall hearing about the adrenochrome when I was listening to the Violet Wanderers podcast a few weeks ago and one episode had one of the hosts joking about adrenochrome (that host occasionally comments here as well). It seems at this point that even many conservatives don’t believe the adrenochrome thing, as I’ve heard way more leftists joking about it than conservatives honestly believing it.
@Jenora Feuer
Some of us are also a bit scared because we have loved ones we worry about or because we could get sick. I’m not at super high risk because I’m younger and have a working immune system, but I do have older relatives who I do worry about.
@WWTH
I haven’t heard from them in a while, but I can imagine they’d be a bit excited about so many people dying.
@Romaine-la-Prophétesse
TERFs seem to believe gendered behavior is programmed into chromosomes (which isn’t very feminist), so to them this is the same thing. Since I’ve never smoked, I don’t think that particular facet will affect me.
@Masse_mysteria
I haven’t read the exact thing you speak of, but I have seen some older GNC cis people get rather worked up about the existence of trans* people. For example, Boy George had a bit of a meltdown a few months ago about the existence of trans* people. The woman you’re talking about is an interesting case because TERFs generally hate butch women (but occasionally pretend to like them to try to look better, as mocked by Ruth Hunt in this article).
@Lumipuna
TERFs love some men, at least the men who agree with them. They love Graham Linehan, and it seems a significant chunk of TERFs are men who see it as a way to be performatively feminist but really hate trans* people. OTOH, any man (or woman, for that matter) who supports trans* rights is branded a misogynist.
I wish soundsfromoutside was right that no one would care if someone uses pronouns, cause right now soundsfromoutside and TERFs are still busy getting upset at things that don’t hurt them. They’re taking the opposite lesson they should. Why waste your energy hating people who are different than you?
Well I’m a Nonsmoker myself, but half of my family is North African, where 90% of the male Population smokes and most of the people over 45 have Problems with high bloodpressure and diabetes. All three of those are big risk factors. Also there the public healthsystem was gutted by austerity. So I’m extremely worried.
Also there the population has good reason to distrust the police and government, so most won’t heed the offical warnings.
To me, one of the most telling things about TERFs, that reveals them as nothing but reactionary bigots, is how frequently they use “mentally ill” as a pejorative, to deny people’s value or the legitimacy of their words.
Those cis women that you’re claiming to protect? A lot of them are mentally ill, and they hear you. So do the rest of us.
@Allandrel
They also love to harass autistic people. I may have mentioned this before, but I’ve seen quite a bit lately of TERFs (and truscum) claiming that autistic trans* people can’t really understand our own genders so we shouldn’t be allowed to transition. And since there are a fair number of autistic trans* people out there, we’re getting a bit fed up.
I’m sure TERFs will just ignore them the same way they do butch women, other GNC women, intersex women, trans*-inclusive cis lesbians and bi women, cis women who support trans* women, infertile women, women who have had hysterectomies/oophorectomies, women with PCOS, women with vaginal dryness, and every other kind of woman that doesn’t conform to their expectation of what women should be like.
“What happens to the man who calls himself a woman and who usually wears makeup, heels, and a smart pencil skirt to work when he no longer has an audience for his performance?”
What happens to the trans-exclusionary ‘feminist’ who makes a fetish out her X chromosomes and/or her femininity when she realizes that the people (especially the reactionary ones) whom she’s grown used to impressing with her meanness aren’t paying attention to her anymore because they’ve been caught up perforce in something else? I think that’s the real question here.
I am not going to perpetuate itsnotaboutewe’s misgendering of all trans women while quoting them because they can go to hell tbh!
I keep thinking about this because it’s so revealing. Lots of women wear wigs, obviously. Some women who wear wigs are trans women. But the assumption that every single trans woman wears a wig… it’s like itsnotaboutewe believes that trans women are stereotypical gender-conforming men under their clothes, and as stereotypical gender-conforming men, they would never let their hair grow beyond a stereotypical gender-conforming male haircut. Like, trans women can have their natural hair at various lengths and in various styles, just like all women. Just like all people. I think itsnotaboutewe believes that under every trans woman’s outfit is a grey mid-century business suit and a shiny pair of loafers. This is a belief someone could only maintain if they absolutely refused to ever listen to a single trans person speak.
@Naglfar
Awful but not surprising. Bigots rarely confine themselves to one or two bigotries.
TERFs really are just as gender essentialist as any right-winger, with just as bad an understanding of science.
You cover a lot of awful people and some of them are definitely worse than these horrors, but terfs are particularly heinous to me personally. They prey on vulnerable, lonely people and they do it with a smug sense of glee. It is really sick.
@Anonymous
I have always assumed that Thompson was sold something billed as adrenochrome that did in fact get him high as a kite. God only knows what he was actually taking.
@Viscaria
I think it has to do with this transphobic stereotype of trans* women as men with male pattern baldness. Yes, some trans* women have hair loss, but so do some cis women. I personally don’t wear a wig and I have natural long hair, but I can understand why someone with hair loss would choose to wear a wig, and most cis women with hair loss wear wigs because of the stigma around hair loss in women. A stigma any actual feminist would oppose.
TERFs have a similar obsession with breast implants, despite the fact that many cis women have breast implants as well.
Even before I cracked the egg and realized I was trans* I grew my hair out. It made me less dysphoric and it was a way of owning my own body. As a kid, I was forced to have short hair, which I hated. When I was 16, I convinced my mother to let me grow my hair out, and, convinced it was a phase, she acquiesced. I haven’t cut my hair since then. TERFs can look upon my brunette locks and weep.
@Romaine-la-Prophétesse
Data out of Italy showed that 70% of the people who died there were men (although that was last week, there might be a different percentage already). But the study also showed that almost everyone who died had other health issues like diabetes, heart problems, high blood pressure, etc. These are all more common in (cis) men, which is probably why the mortality is higher among them.
Anyway, if someone’s first instinct during a pandemic is to gloat at others’ suffering, they’re a horrible person. Not that that’s news with respect to TERFs. They’re beyond vile. TERFs, MRAs, literal nazis.. it’s getting increasingly harder to distinguish them.
@Naglfar
The woman you’re talking about is an interesting case because TERFs generally hate butch women
Sometimes I wonder if TERFs secretly hate men as much as much as they hate trans women, or if they just haven’t thought things through.
She probably was sick of the tired assumption there is only one way to be a real woman (stereotypical feminine) and these people are reinforcing it.
It is unfortunately a not uncommon assumption even among feminists and transpeople. And if you literally fought all your life to be living proof that is a lie, only to have people assume you’re a man(because being a physically powerful woman…in my case a straight woman… without bullshit socialization is apparently not possible …that’s sarcasm) , you might find it a bit annoying.
I OTOH don’t blame trans people. Why would I? They’re just trying to navigate the bullshit like the rest of us.
Actually it really doesn’t bother me when people I don’t know (and am not interested in dating) think I’m a guy. Good. They know the most important thing a perfect stranger should know about me: it will be dangerous to fuck with me.
A few idiots have found out the hard way.
@Masse_Mysteria
It’s pretty much no secret sometimes that TERFs hate men – they just happen to see trans women as men. They’re being allies with the manosphere since they see no one else will fight whom they see as monsters that they believe are worse than those who tell the truth about their manhood.
I admit I find myself rather sympathetic of radical feminism but I’m trying to change that for various reasons – I’ve seen from a few LGBT discourse posts that radical feminism at least at its present state lacks, intersectionality in addition to it being more increasingly appropriated by transphobes.
I’ve seen that if one searches “radical feminism” on Tumblr, TERFs seem to have a very strong presence within the search term. However, Tumblr isn’t known to be filled with people like the MRA crowd though. Otherwise, Tumblr tends to be a lot better towards trans and gnc individuals (hence why it’s earned a reputation for “kinning” or something).
@NOBODY
I’m not surprised she was tired of the assumptions, because those suck, but I still can’t understand why she felt the need to take it out on trans men.
Then again I feel that I’m notoriously bad at understanding these things. Back when I was a kid and knew nothing about nonbinary people, much less that I was one, I was always flummoxed when adults got my gender “wrong” and then bent over backwards to apologise, when I hadn’t even noticed it.
(I have no idea how I messed up the quote thing so badly in my last message. Oh, well.)
Perry wrote:
Also, I get the impression (please correct me, if necessary) that trans people generally seek explicit validation not from coworkers but from friends and political allies, if anyone – and this is typically done in online communities regardless of circumstances. Workplace community (incl. customers) is actually more likely to provide the invalidation.
Of course, TERFs would claim that merely being treated as woman is some sort of special emotional service when it’s granted for trans women. This ties with the stereotype that a typical trans woman gives out an unmistakeably masculine impression (and that without her excessively feminine dressing style, you wouldn’t even guess her gender identity).
@Masse_Mysteria
So they’re angry at bigots for being bigoted against the wrong people?
I’ve seen TERFs argue that line before and have a patronizing view towards trans* men (which is also often extended towards AFAB non-binary people as well). They also seem to think all trans* men are adolescents or children, they infantilize them and are unable to see them as adults.
Probably because they’re a convenient scapegoat.
Wow. Even my homophobic mom, who afaik thinks trans people are some kind of weirdos and unnatural and that bisexuals are either undecided, nonexistent or invent their sexual identity for “adolescent bravado” – and specifically in my case, to embarrass her – (the two latter were her verbatim reaction to my coming out) thinks this is such a bullshit one doesn’t know where to begin with.
There’s nothing to add to what Naglfar said about this: “If your movement finds commonality with a virus, that might be a sign you really need to re-evaluate your life.“
CN: Hard transphobic and anti-christian arguments pertaining to fur, drugs, violence and sexual violence, especially against minors from an unregretting trans person in an effort to rehumanize trans femme (and masculine?) people. Basically an attempt at being a good student of philosophy and writing an anti-church, pro-drugs, pro-fur, pro-anime, anti-pedophilia stance to discuss with trans critical feminists
Sorry in advance for not having fully understood all your validating and nice answers before posting my usual problematic takes and please criticize / moderate to your hearts content if I offend anyone…, but:
I’m a trans femme and I still can’t bash trans critical feminists with just the same rage you folks seem to be capable of…I guess. It does not help that I have a Helfersyndrom (a condition where you feel a deep need to help even your enemies when they actively try to harm you and later feel guilty because you let them hurt you) and currently feel guilty of just about anything that happens because I could not personally stop it from happening or because I am addicted to a lot of pharmaceutical substances my body has developed a taste for, one of them being nicotine (ain’t the effort of being nice a nice thing for your mind when your self-confidence is just a little bit stressed by constant dehumanisation? That’s a rhetorical question, the answer is: meow!) or that I have read some books by and about and probably over-identified with Simone Weil who pretty much tried to live a feminine exemplary life and struggled with her religious upbringing while being a modern feminist. Truth is I find it hard to really hate everyone and find this mode of hating people on the internet weird and frightening. But that’s a personal preference. I curse a lot more in real life, must be my male side acting up.
Anyway most of what our dear critical feminist who seem to be mostly critical of trans women while being ambivalent about trans men and only hate them on weird-numbered days of the week think: Most of this is old hat and not at all strange questions to ask. They just happen to already have an answer to anyone who cares to look.
About being trans on a dessert island:
That’s an old question taken straight from cogiati (here’s a german version ) and shows only a superficial reading of the source material instead of say…Conell’s Masculinities which should be like…standard lecture for any serious scholar who goes as far as accepting the dehumanization of a part of the population, because that’s normally a bad thing to do. Or any feminist by the way since Conell also writes about the trouble with educating men to feminism and all the damage that was done because this has to be tried again and again until we are one humanity with one voice instead of people divided by socially constructed lines of racism, sexism, classism, ableism, ageism and general nastyness (I hope I don’t get in trouble for choosing exactly this order…but yeah). My point is that any attempt at all to try and solve the problems of this world during a pandemic where friends, foes (if one insists on that distinction in the face of a pandemic) and neutrals fall left and right due to a variety of illnesses should make one very humble and that I take issue with the tone these feminists choose to discuss a vulnerable minority. Dehumanizing people who already feel isolated is a dangerous thing — and I might have something to do with that because I recently provoked the usual ban from the gender critical reddit for daring to suggest that trans femme people should have human rights – it was about sexual violence which occurs when one is trans – both as a victim (more often) and as a perp (sadly, these things happen even to women intending to leave behind the violence associated with mainstream feminism. So I’m sorry if I caused this post to happen and am now being a brat about it. I swear on my reputation that I have good intentions and try to be as calm as possible, but this feels personal on a deeply hurtful level — knowing…entirely too many trans girls who have experienced rape in some way or another and have issues in this regard myself. I am currently healing but also raw with anger and it’s a weird feeling and I originally wanted to write something else somewhere else, but…oh well: There is a frigging chickt tract (hard-right christian propaganda) with my name on it (written before I was born) that basically says that pedophilia is ok is forgiveable in the eyes of god if the perpetrator just prays enough afterwards and regrets it a bit. It’s no longer in stock (gee, I wonder why) but you can find it with an moderate advanced search — try Rationalwiki about Jack Chick as a starting point. I know that we are tolerant against people of all creeds here, but this cannot stand and churches who preach this sort of gospel are inhuman and cruel. I am an agnostic or atheist by the way but I often get confused for a good christian girl. It feels like an insult.
Ok, I’ve said my part for the moment. Back to writing cyberpunk literature, dreaming of tabacco, alcohol and estrogen and working on my computer infrastructure. Thanks for putting yourself trough the ordeal of reading this.