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“Gender Critical” Redditors find a silver lining in the coronavirus: it might make trans women sad

By David Futrelle

So I’ve done it: I’ve found the weirdest and most delusional take on the Coronavirus yet, and it comes not from the incels or the MGTOWs or the Trump administration but rather from the “Gender Critical” subreddit, the main hangout of Reddit’s TERFs.

You may need a stiff drink to get through the whole post.

“With so many people forced to work from home,” someone called itsnotaboutewe began.

we should spare a thought for all the TIMs who are now unable to receive outside validation for their delusions.

Just remember that “TIM,” in TERF-speak, means “Trans-Identified Male,” i.e. what the rest of us know as a trans woman.

What happens to the man who calls himself a woman and who usually wears makeup, heels, and a smart pencil skirt to work when he no longer has an audience for his performance?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say “nothing.” Nothing happens to trans women that doesn’t happen to anyone else forced to work at home.

Does he sit in front of his home computer in pyjama bottoms without his wig and cry into his coffee because he hasn’t been told by co-workers how lovely he looks this morning?

If there’s any crying into coffee going on it might have to do with the fact that we’re in the midst of a horrifying and surreal global pandemic that could easily kill as many as 1.7 million Americans and millions more across the world, not to mention leaving billions in precarious financial situations. That all makes me a bit sad.

How will they cope without the constant validation they need to function as mentally ill misogynistic men in a society that no longer prioritises them?

Yes, the people who have to fight for the right to use the correct public bathrooms are truly the “prioritized” ones in contemporary society.

Does the fact that way more males than females are dying from covid-19 plunge their self identification into turmoil?

I”m going to say no.

Due to the different death rates between the sexes, and the fact that this virus doesn’t give a shit about how you self-identify, I think coronavirus has feminist leanings and is more than a bit terfy.

Yes, that’s right, a TERF has just declared that the coronavirus is also a TERF, because it kills more men than women and makes trans women sad.

Again, I’m not saying this; a TERF is saying this.

Itsnotaboutewe’s post got some 800 upvotes on the so-called Gender Critical subreddit, and inspired more than a hundred comments, many of which are as unlovely and nonsensical as the original post:

According to Artemis_Jade,

The OP’s question is very valid. Trans comes down to “I want to be TREATED as if I were the opposite sex.” So then, is it possible to be trans if you are alone on a desert island?

c1ar3 joked

If a trans falls in a forest and no one is around to hear xer, does xe make a sound?

tervacious made the same joke:

This gave me the giggles. If a tree falls in the ladies toilets, does it make a trans sound?

jennywhistle agreed

This is what I hate about transgenderism. They can’t deny it wouldn’t exist in a vacuum. All that matters is how everyone else sees you.

soundsfromoutside sounded more than a little like an incel or a MGTOW hungering for the apocalypse because they think it will return society back to its “normal” gender roles:

This pandemic and economic crash is going to wake a lot of people up to reality. We had too much time on our hands, we were comfortable, we were spoiled-all of us. We worried about shit that didn’t matter, fought over things that led up to nothing.

Now, we are right back to our primitive roots: survival. Food, medicine, our families, our safety. We are going to see a rise in deaths, a rise a crime. We aren’t going to be worried about who is wearing what when our parents and grandparents are in the hospital. Pronouns, names, clothing, these are all nonproblems now (undoubtedly, some people will still try to make this about them).

This gleeful celebration of other people’s (imagined) misery is not really a good look, Gender Crits — especially when you’re trying to pretend to be a progressive civil rights movement, much as the Men’s Rights Activists do.

I found only one comment in the thread that took serious issue with the OP. Someone called 54321_Sun wrote:

This is rude and bullying, and beneath gender critical thought, I hope.

I come to this sub to feel validated, but when I see things like this, I start to get sick to my stomach, because I know that these type of posts can be used against us, rightfully so.

Naturally, the other Gender Crits voted this comment down below zero, because that’s what happens in a hate subreddit when anyone expresses similar concerns.

Bigoted assholes don’t like to be told not to be bigoted assholes, I guess.

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Snowberry
Snowberry
7 months ago

So, since I posted about it moments before the appropriate thread opened up, I’m going to reiterate here: When there’s a gender-correlated health difference, it’s usually (but not always) correlated more to hormone levels than anything else. So what if trans women who are on hormones don’t end up with the higher mortality levels associated with men?

Not that we’re likely to ever know. But they could be stupidly wrong on that point, regardless, invalidating the whole thing before any of the other stupid comes into play.

Anonymous
Anonymous
7 months ago

Actually, I think this is the most delusional take so far (using imgur for the sake of not wanting to look at the comments, the first post is already refined insanity):

https://imgur.com/a/qKhJCfV

How many boxes does this check off on the conspiracy theory bingo card?

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
7 months ago

@Snowberry

Yeah, in this case it may (IIRC?) be related to 2 copies of the X chromosome resulting in more ACE2 receptors in the lungs, which would mean most of us don’t get that protection.

I’d expect many trans people are at heightened risk regardless though. There’s a really wide intersection of transness and chronic illness IME, probably in part from all the developmental trauma. I’ve been keeping a close eye on my trans + disabled friends, and checking in with them regularly.

(On which note? The way these bigots throw around “mentally ill” as a value judgment makes me almost as sick as their transphobia. They always sound like they’re just a drink or two away from calling us “degenerate” or “subhuman” – the Nazi heritage of their beliefs shows through very clearly IMO.)

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
7 months ago

https://imgur.com/a/qKhJCfV

Blank. Image Picker (a Firefox extension) says “no images found”.

🤔

numerobis
numerobis
7 months ago

So, one recently-out (to some of us, I’m honored she chose me) friend of mine posted a picture of herself to Facebook, and she looks fabulous and we told her so.

What’s this about not having validation from others because of quarantine? Have they not heard of the internet?

Snowberry
Snowberry
7 months ago

So… Trump created coronavirus to drive out the reptillians, enforce socialism, and set up Earth to be admitted into the galactic civilization. Sure. Okay. 🙄

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

Does the fact that way more males than females are dying from covid-19 plunge their self identification into turmoil?

Regardless of gender, I think most people don’t want to get sick. Even if I were a cis woman I still think I’d be taking the same precautions not to get the coronavirus.

Due to the different death rates between the sexes, and the fact that this virus doesn’t give a shit about how you self-identify, I think coronavirus has feminist leanings and is more than a bit terfy.

A couple things here:
1. If your movement finds commonality with a virus, that might be a sign you really need to re-evaluate your life.
2. I thought they were trying to claim TERF is a slur. Now it’s an honorific for viruses? So it’s not a slur?

is it possible to be trans if you are alone on a desert island?

New idea: send all the TERFs to a desert island. Just an idea.

All that matters is how everyone else sees you.

Uh, no? I don’t cease to be trans* if someone doesn’t see me.

Pronouns, names, clothing, these are all nonproblems now

Even if society collapses, I still think we’re going to use pronouns and names and clothing. It’s hard to keep track of who is being referred to without names, without pronouns sentences get quite redundant, and without clothing I’m cold and naked.

I come to this sub to feel validated

Then you are in the wrong place.

@Cyborgette

They always sound like they’re just a drink or two away from calling us “degenerate” or “subhuman” – the Nazi heritage of their beliefs shows through very clearly IMO

It’s also evident in their projection—Glinner and friends love to call us Nazis. And I’m not even sure it would take a drink: Posie Parker looked pretty sober when she appeared with Jean-François Gariépy.

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
7 months ago

Yes, there’s a global pandemic going on, and the thing these people decide is important is imagining that trans women are miserable because no one is at the office to tell them they’re pretty.

Good. God.

Hypatia's Daughter
Hypatia's Daughter
7 months ago

But, I thought that the zombie/hurricane/global warming/global pandemic end-of-civilization-as-we-know-it crisis were going to prove once and for all, the absolute natural fact that “Men were Men” and “Women were really Good at Housework”……….and at wearing make-up, aprons and push-up bras.”
Now, it seems, that a global crisis will dispense with all the artifices that society uses to define “femininity”.
MRA logic shifts more than a windsock in a tornado.

FlyByKiwi
FlyByKiwi
7 months ago

Well, I didn’t forget about the reptilians. I NEVER forget about the reptilians! But I thought that the reptilians were going to be our galactic overlords? I was quite looking forward to overlords who can lick their own eyeballs with their tongues. What a disappointment that they’re instead going to be driven out.

Dalillama
Dalillama
7 months ago

@Naglfar

Even if society collapses, I still think we’re going to use pronouns and names and clothing. It’s hard to keep track of who is being referred to without names, without pronouns sentences get quite redundant, and without clothing I’m cold and naked.

Meme I saw said “They told me a mask and gloves were enough for a trip tp the grocery store, but they lied. Everyone else was wearing clothes too.” Anyway, while there are a few regions on Earth where people can go about naked all year without dying of exposure, most people don’t live in them.

Perry
Perry
7 months ago

The interesting thing about anti-trans discourse — any discourse in favor of the status quo for that matter — is how deeply it fails to examine broader society and the experiences of the transphobia in question with the same critical lens. Like, sure, even though a trans identity is a personal thing that exists whether or not it’s validated in public, most people still put stock in how they’re perceived. Just like literally everyone who participates in society, cis or trans, gender-conforming or not. Trans people wouldn’t exist if society didn’t, but neither would cis people because gender as a concept wouldn’t exist. Every single person is affected by how their gender is validated by others, including the people on that sub. The only difference is that trans and gender non-conforming people tend to be invalidated more, which makes any positive reinforcement that much more valuable relatively.

Pretty much all forms of social conservatism seem to stem from not understanding that 1) we live in a society and 2) having empathy for people improves the society you have to live in.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Perry

Every single person is affected by how their gender is validated by others, including the people on that sub.

Of course. The main difference is that most of the transphobes above are probably used to having their gender recognized and validated regularly. This might be why they don’t understand what it feels like to not be validated, and I’ve seen many transphobes online and IRL get very angry when misgendered despite deliberately misgendering trans* people themselves.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

If I, a cis woman am still a woman while I’m working from home in my pajamas looking a mess, I don’t really know why trans women can’t still be women while working from home looking a mess.

This is rude and bullying, and beneath gender critical thought, I hope.

I come to this sub to feel validated, but when I see things like this, I start to get sick to my stomach, because I know that these type of posts can be used against us, rightfully so.

So close to getting it. Yet so far away.

Allandrel
Allandrel
7 months ago

I “love” that the disagreeing commentor’s concern is not so much “this is a bad thing to say” as it is “this could be used to make us look bad.”

Really shows how morally bankrupt TERFs are, doesn’t it? Even the “don’t say that” TERFs are just concerned with saying “that” where other people can see it.

tim gueguen
7 months ago

@Anonymous I find it funny that whoever came up with that conspiracy theory thinks that superpowerful elites will somehow be stopped by travel bans between countries. The whole point about being part of the supposed superpowerful elite is that you can do whatever the hell you want.

galanx
galanx
7 months ago

AFAIK the difference between male and female cases is only reported from China, where there is a huge gap in smoking rates between the sexes. It would seem to be a behavioral difference; I haven’t seen any evidence that it is replicated where smoking levels are more equal.

Anonymous
Anonymous
7 months ago

@David Futrelle
Hi Dave! I will say the TERFS did their best, but they just can’t keep up with the really gross madness that comes from the deeply paranoid.

I almost forgot to clarify one thing since odds are nobody else here would have known it either (I sure didn’t): the “adrenochrome” that image is rambling about is basically just adrenaline that’s been oxidized. Back in the 50s-60s, a couple of Timothy Leary wannabes theorized that it had LSD-like properties (it doesn’t) and that schizophrenics had an excess of the stuff in their bodies (they don’t).Hunter S. Thompson ran with that in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, someone saw the part in the movie version where Dr. Gonzo said it could only be harvested from the adrenal glands of terrorized children, and somehow this bastard child of the blood libel myth and the Saw movies got attached to the whole QAnon clusterfuck.

You just gotta love crank magnetism some days, if only as an object of derisive laughter.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
7 months ago

Granted, they’re not entirely wrong, though what marginal claims on rightness they have are for the wrong reasons. I’ve run into at least one trans woman who is sad (actually more mad) about the coronavirus. But that’s because the current health crisis is causing non-essential health care access to be de-prioritised, and not everybody considers HRT to be essential.

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 months ago

Dave has been highlighting a lot of people lately who have found a supposed silver lining to this pandemic that has killed thousands of people and will go on to kill many more. Maybe, just maybe, there is no silver lining to a global health crisis that leaves bodies in its wake. Maybe if someone is thinking, “Hey, the virus is bad, but –” they should stop thinking that immediately and maybe take a nap or something.

If a tree falls in the ladies toilets, does it make a trans sound?

Is this funny even if you are a TERF? It’s awkward and doesn’t make any sense. If you are a TERF and you’re reading this, don’t tell me if this is funny because I don’t care to know what you think on that subject or any other.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Dave has been highlighting a lot of people lately who have found a supposed silver lining to this pandemic that has killed thousands of people and will go on to kill many more.

And he hasn’t even gotten to the eco-fascists yet!

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
7 months ago

Here’s an article about how one particular trans woman and her husband are going through a hard time because of Covid-19. The writing is lovely and sad, and because I too live in San Francisco, I understand all too well the economics of their situation and their love for our beautiful city.

The Week the Dream Sank
Joan Summers

On Monday, my husband trudged into his former chef job at a somewhat swanky restaurant to pick up his last check, possibly ever. The two years he spent there on the line were the happiest of his life—stressful, but satisfying. He’d regale me each morning with all the recipes he’d tested, customers he’d served, bonds he’d formed. That’s all over now, of course. He likely won’t find another restaurant to work in for some time.

After he left, I sat on our porch, hoping that he’d call me and tell me they’d changed their mind or found some way to keep their doors open without laying off the entire staff. That didn’t happen. Eventually, he appeared on our now-empty street and we walked inside quietly. I took his hand, and he asked what I’d like for dinner. I could tell he’d been crying. . . .

https://jezebel.com/the-week-the-dream-sank-1842381638

WMDKitty
WMDKitty
7 months ago

How will they cope without the constant validation they need to function as mentally ill misogynistic men in a society that no longer prioritises them?

So. Much. Projection.

Butcherbird
Butcherbird
7 months ago

I’m a trans guy currently in isolation in a fairly remote cabin. (This is a result of being immunocompromised and having access to a cabin.)

I haven’t seen anyone for days. I am currently wearing “women’s” clothes (as much as pyjamas and a hoodie can be considered gendered). Right now I have zero external validation of my gender. I could be on a desert island.

Yeah, I’m still trans. I still live in a body, one that is now fairly congruent with my internal sense of self, and which only produces background dysphoria. My being transgender would exist in a vacuum. I know other trans* people for whom social dysphoria is much worse than it is for me, and perhaps away from society it’s easier to deal with. But we’re still trans.

Valentin
Valentin
7 months ago

Hello, reptillians was invented by david ike who is an anti semite. It is antisemitic conspiracy theory. Comparing jewish people to reptiles and showing that they have green skin is something that anti semites already did for more than 100 years. It is not just a silly thing but specially anti semitic.

Romaine-la-Prophétesse
Romaine-la-Prophétesse
7 months ago

All of the awfullness aside.

Is there even clear gender difference in mortality rate?
I only read about that concerning china and there they assumed it was because the majority of men over 50 smoke, while most women don’t. Smoking and some of the chronic illnesses that are associated with it seem to be a big risk factor for a bad to deadly progression of the virus.

So it seems to come down to what at least in parts of Asia and the Middle East ist the difference between masculine/feminine behavoir, not your chromosomes.

@: Valentin – yeah The Reptilians are basically a way to be an oldscool Antisemite of the Elders of Zion Variety, while mixing it with biological racism and having plausible deniability.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
7 months ago

@Naglfar

This might be why they don’t understand what it feels like to not be validated, and I’ve seen many transphobes online and IRL get very angry when misgendered despite deliberately misgendering trans* people themselves.

Must suck when you spend all your time telling yourself and others that something you know you have is a biological, inborn thing everyone can see from a mile away and then find that no, it is not that and you have been a jerk just for the heck of it.

Years ago I read something written by an older butch woman who disliked how there were suddenly so many transmen everywhere. She felt that because of that, she got misgendered more often because people were being “respectful” and calling her a man. I was so confused because while I understood she didn’t like it, I couldn’t make out what she wanted. Surely more rigid norms would be bad for those who are gender non-conforming?

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
7 months ago

Viscaria, on a TERF joke:

Is this funny even if you are a TERF? It’s awkward and doesn’t make any sense.

I guess it’s funny because it highlights the general TERF premise that any non-woman things are equally not-belonging in women’s toilet, be it men or trees or trans women.

It’s also riffing on the old meme about tree falling and making a sound. And alluding the stereotype that trans women’s voice sounds masculine or otherwise unusual. And alluding the general idea of a trans woman falling and hurting herself.

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
7 months ago

Re the “feminist” nature of SARS-CoV2

A virus that kills men slightly more than women and doesn’t discriminate based on anyone’s individual wrongdoings is about the least efficient imaginable agent for reducing misogyny in this world.

Sometimes I wonder if TERFs secretly hate men as much as much as they hate trans women, or if they just haven’t thought things through.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Anonymous
I recall hearing about the adrenochrome when I was listening to the Violet Wanderers podcast a few weeks ago and one episode had one of the hosts joking about adrenochrome (that host occasionally comments here as well). It seems at this point that even many conservatives don’t believe the adrenochrome thing, as I’ve heard way more leftists joking about it than conservatives honestly believing it.

@Jenora Feuer

I’ve run into at least one trans woman who is sad (actually more mad) about the coronavirus. But that’s because the current health crisis is causing non-essential health care access to be de-prioritised, and not everybody considers HRT to be essential.

Some of us are also a bit scared because we have loved ones we worry about or because we could get sick. I’m not at super high risk because I’m younger and have a working immune system, but I do have older relatives who I do worry about.

@WWTH

And he hasn’t even gotten to the eco-fascists yet!

I haven’t heard from them in a while, but I can imagine they’d be a bit excited about so many people dying.

@Romaine-la-Prophétesse

So it seems to come down to what at least in parts of Asia and the Middle East ist the difference between masculine/feminine behavoir, not your chromosomes.

TERFs seem to believe gendered behavior is programmed into chromosomes (which isn’t very feminist), so to them this is the same thing. Since I’ve never smoked, I don’t think that particular facet will affect me.

@Masse_mysteria

Years ago I read something written by an older butch woman who disliked how there were suddenly so many transmen everywhere. She felt that because of that, she got misgendered more often because people were being “respectful” and calling her a man. I was so confused because while I understood she didn’t like it, I couldn’t make out what she wanted. Surely more rigid norms would be bad for those who are gender non-conforming?

I haven’t read the exact thing you speak of, but I have seen some older GNC cis people get rather worked up about the existence of trans* people. For example, Boy George had a bit of a meltdown a few months ago about the existence of trans* people. The woman you’re talking about is an interesting case because TERFs generally hate butch women (but occasionally pretend to like them to try to look better, as mocked by Ruth Hunt in this article).

@Lumipuna
TERFs love some men, at least the men who agree with them. They love Graham Linehan, and it seems a significant chunk of TERFs are men who see it as a way to be performatively feminist but really hate trans* people. OTOH, any man (or woman, for that matter) who supports trans* rights is branded a misogynist.

Chrisb
Chrisb
7 months ago

I wish soundsfromoutside was right that no one would care if someone uses pronouns, cause right now soundsfromoutside and TERFs are still busy getting upset at things that don’t hurt them. They’re taking the opposite lesson they should. Why waste your energy hating people who are different than you?

Romaine-la-Prophétesse
Romaine-la-Prophétesse
7 months ago

Since I’ve never smoked, I don’t think that particular facet will affect me.

Well I’m a Nonsmoker myself, but half of my family is North African, where 90% of the male Population smokes and most of the people over 45 have Problems with high bloodpressure and diabetes. All three of those are big risk factors. Also there the public healthsystem was gutted by austerity. So I’m extremely worried.
Also there the population has good reason to distrust the police and government, so most won’t heed the offical warnings.

Allandrel
Allandrel
7 months ago

To me, one of the most telling things about TERFs, that reveals them as nothing but reactionary bigots, is how frequently they use “mentally ill” as a pejorative, to deny people’s value or the legitimacy of their words.

Those cis women that you’re claiming to protect? A lot of them are mentally ill, and they hear you. So do the rest of us.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Allandrel

one of the most telling things about TERFs, that reveals them as nothing but reactionary bigots, is how frequently they use “mentally ill” as a pejorative, to deny people’s value or the legitimacy of their words.

They also love to harass autistic people. I may have mentioned this before, but I’ve seen quite a bit lately of TERFs (and truscum) claiming that autistic trans* people can’t really understand our own genders so we shouldn’t be allowed to transition. And since there are a fair number of autistic trans* people out there, we’re getting a bit fed up.

Those cis women that you’re claiming to protect? A lot of them are mentally ill, and they hear you.

I’m sure TERFs will just ignore them the same way they do butch women, other GNC women, intersex women, trans*-inclusive cis lesbians and bi women, cis women who support trans* women, infertile women, women who have had hysterectomies/oophorectomies, women with PCOS, women with vaginal dryness, and every other kind of woman that doesn’t conform to their expectation of what women should be like.

bekabot
bekabot
7 months ago

“What happens to the man who calls himself a woman and who usually wears makeup, heels, and a smart pencil skirt to work when he no longer has an audience for his performance?”

What happens to the trans-exclusionary ‘feminist’ who makes a fetish out her X chromosomes and/or her femininity when she realizes that the people (especially the reactionary ones) whom she’s grown used to impressing with her meanness aren’t paying attention to her anymore because they’ve been caught up perforce in something else? I think that’s the real question here.

Viscaria
Viscaria
7 months ago

Does [she] sit in front of [her] home computer in pyjama bottoms without [her] wig and cry into [her] coffee because [she] hasn’t been told by co-workers how lovely [she] looks this morning?

I am not going to perpetuate itsnotaboutewe’s misgendering of all trans women while quoting them because they can go to hell tbh!

I keep thinking about this because it’s so revealing. Lots of women wear wigs, obviously. Some women who wear wigs are trans women. But the assumption that every single trans woman wears a wig… it’s like itsnotaboutewe believes that trans women are stereotypical gender-conforming men under their clothes, and as stereotypical gender-conforming men, they would never let their hair grow beyond a stereotypical gender-conforming male haircut. Like, trans women can have their natural hair at various lengths and in various styles, just like all women. Just like all people. I think itsnotaboutewe believes that under every trans woman’s outfit is a grey mid-century business suit and a shiny pair of loafers. This is a belief someone could only maintain if they absolutely refused to ever listen to a single trans person speak.

Allandrel
Allandrel
7 months ago

@Naglfar

They also love to harass autistic people. I may have mentioned this before, but I’ve seen quite a bit lately of TERFs (and truscum) claiming that autistic trans* people can’t really understand our own genders so we shouldn’t be allowed to transition. And since there are a fair number of autistic trans* people out there, we’re getting a bit fed up.

Awful but not surprising. Bigots rarely confine themselves to one or two bigotries.

I’m sure TERFs will just ignore them the same way they do butch women, other GNC women, intersex women, trans*-inclusive cis lesbians and bi women, cis women who support trans* women, infertile women, women who have had hysterectomies/oophorectomies, women with PCOS, women with vaginal dryness, and every other kind of woman that doesn’t conform to their expectation of what women should be like.

TERFs really are just as gender essentialist as any right-winger, with just as bad an understanding of science.

Tyko
Tyko
7 months ago

You cover a lot of awful people and some of them are definitely worse than these horrors, but terfs are particularly heinous to me personally. They prey on vulnerable, lonely people and they do it with a smug sense of glee. It is really sick.

Dalillama
Dalillama
7 months ago

@Anonymous

Hunter S. Thompson ran with that in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas,

I have always assumed that Thompson was sold something billed as adrenochrome that did in fact get him high as a kite. God only knows what he was actually taking.

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Viscaria

But the assumption that every single trans woman wears a wig… it’s like itsnotaboutewe believes that trans women are stereotypical gender-conforming men under their clothes, and as stereotypical gender-conforming men, they would never let their hair grow beyond a stereotypical gender-conforming male haircut.

I think it has to do with this transphobic stereotype of trans* women as men with male pattern baldness. Yes, some trans* women have hair loss, but so do some cis women. I personally don’t wear a wig and I have natural long hair, but I can understand why someone with hair loss would choose to wear a wig, and most cis women with hair loss wear wigs because of the stigma around hair loss in women. A stigma any actual feminist would oppose.
TERFs have a similar obsession with breast implants, despite the fact that many cis women have breast implants as well.

Even before I cracked the egg and realized I was trans* I grew my hair out. It made me less dysphoric and it was a way of owning my own body. As a kid, I was forced to have short hair, which I hated. When I was 16, I convinced my mother to let me grow my hair out, and, convinced it was a phase, she acquiesced. I haven’t cut my hair since then. TERFs can look upon my brunette locks and weep.

Nina
Nina
7 months ago

@Romaine-la-Prophétesse

Is there even clear gender difference in mortality rate?

Data out of Italy showed that 70% of the people who died there were men (although that was last week, there might be a different percentage already). But the study also showed that almost everyone who died had other health issues like diabetes, heart problems, high blood pressure, etc. These are all more common in (cis) men, which is probably why the mortality is higher among them.

Anyway, if someone’s first instinct during a pandemic is to gloat at others’ suffering, they’re a horrible person. Not that that’s news with respect to TERFs. They’re beyond vile. TERFs, MRAs, literal nazis.. it’s getting increasingly harder to distinguish them.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
7 months ago

@Naglfar
The woman you’re talking about is an interesting case because TERFs generally hate butch women

As far as I can remember, I came across this in a blog comment discussion where these self-described radical feminists were miffed that all the ire against trans* people was towards trans* men, while they held the view that trans* men were actually women with internalised misogyny and all that had to be nibbed in the bud because testosterone is a feel good hormone that makes bad ideas seem good, so once they start HRT there’s no saving them. I might still find it somewhere on the Internet if I tried, but frankly I don’t want to.

@Lumipuna

Sometimes I wonder if TERFs secretly hate men as much as much as they hate trans women, or if they just haven’t thought things through.

I’d be surprised to hear TERFs had thought anything through.

NOBODY
NOBODY
7 months ago

She felt that because of that, she got misgendered more often because people were being “respectful” and calling her a man. I was so confused because while I understood she didn’t like it, I couldn’t make out what she wanted. Surely more rigid norms would be bad for those who are gender non-conforming?

She probably was sick of the tired assumption there is only one way to be a real woman (stereotypical feminine) and these people are reinforcing it.

It is unfortunately a not uncommon assumption even among feminists and transpeople. And if you literally fought all your life to be living proof that is a lie, only to have people assume you’re a man(because being a physically powerful woman…in my case a straight woman… without bullshit socialization is apparently not possible …that’s sarcasm) , you might find it a bit annoying.

I OTOH don’t blame trans people. Why would I? They’re just trying to navigate the bullshit like the rest of us.

Actually it really doesn’t bother me when people I don’t know (and am not interested in dating) think I’m a guy. Good. They know the most important thing a perfect stranger should know about me: it will be dangerous to fuck with me.

A few idiots have found out the hard way.

rv97
rv97
7 months ago

@Masse_Mysteria

It’s pretty much no secret sometimes that TERFs hate men – they just happen to see trans women as men. They’re being allies with the manosphere since they see no one else will fight whom they see as monsters that they believe are worse than those who tell the truth about their manhood.

I admit I find myself rather sympathetic of radical feminism but I’m trying to change that for various reasons – I’ve seen from a few LGBT discourse posts that radical feminism at least at its present state lacks, intersectionality in addition to it being more increasingly appropriated by transphobes.

I’ve seen that if one searches “radical feminism” on Tumblr, TERFs seem to have a very strong presence within the search term. However, Tumblr isn’t known to be filled with people like the MRA crowd though. Otherwise, Tumblr tends to be a lot better towards trans and gnc individuals (hence why it’s earned a reputation for “kinning” or something).

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
7 months ago

@NOBODY
I’m not surprised she was tired of the assumptions, because those suck, but I still can’t understand why she felt the need to take it out on trans men.

Then again I feel that I’m notoriously bad at understanding these things. Back when I was a kid and knew nothing about nonbinary people, much less that I was one, I was always flummoxed when adults got my gender “wrong” and then bent over backwards to apologise, when I hadn’t even noticed it.

(I have no idea how I messed up the quote thing so badly in my last message. Oh, well.)

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
7 months ago

Perry wrote:

Every single person is affected by how their gender is validated by others, including the people on that sub. The only difference is that trans and gender non-conforming people tend to be invalidated more, which makes any positive reinforcement that much more valuable relatively.

Also, I get the impression (please correct me, if necessary) that trans people generally seek explicit validation not from coworkers but from friends and political allies, if anyone – and this is typically done in online communities regardless of circumstances. Workplace community (incl. customers) is actually more likely to provide the invalidation.

Of course, TERFs would claim that merely being treated as woman is some sort of special emotional service when it’s granted for trans women. This ties with the stereotype that a typical trans woman gives out an unmistakeably masculine impression (and that without her excessively feminine dressing style, you wouldn’t even guess her gender identity).

Naglfar
Naglfar
7 months ago

@Masse_Mysteria

these self-described radical feminists were miffed that all the ire against trans* people was towards trans* men,

So they’re angry at bigots for being bigoted against the wrong people?

while they held the view that trans* men were actually women with internalised misogyny

I’ve seen TERFs argue that line before and have a patronizing view towards trans* men (which is also often extended towards AFAB non-binary people as well). They also seem to think all trans* men are adolescents or children, they infantilize them and are unable to see them as adults.

I still can’t understand why she felt the need to take it out on trans men.

Probably because they’re a convenient scapegoat.

Raven
Raven
7 months ago

Wow. Even my homophobic mom, who afaik thinks trans people are some kind of weirdos and unnatural and that bisexuals are either undecided, nonexistent or invent their sexual identity for “adolescent bravado” – and specifically in my case, to embarrass her – (the two latter were her verbatim reaction to my coming out) thinks this is such a bullshit one doesn’t know where to begin with.

There’s nothing to add to what Naglfar said about this: “If your movement finds commonality with a virus, that might be a sign you really need to re-evaluate your life.“

Lisa
7 months ago

CN: Hard transphobic and anti-christian arguments pertaining to fur, drugs, violence and sexual violence, especially against minors from an unregretting trans person in an effort to rehumanize trans femme (and masculine?) people. Basically an attempt at being a good student of philosophy and writing an anti-church, pro-drugs, pro-fur, pro-anime, anti-pedophilia stance to discuss with trans critical feminists

Sorry in advance for not having fully understood all your validating and nice answers before posting my usual problematic takes and please criticize / moderate to your hearts content if I offend anyone…, but:

I’m a trans femme and I still can’t bash trans critical feminists with just the same rage you folks seem to be capable of…I guess. It does not help that I have a Helfersyndrom (a condition where you feel a deep need to help even your enemies when they actively try to harm you and later feel guilty because you let them hurt you) and currently feel guilty of just about anything that happens because I could not personally stop it from happening or because I am addicted to a lot of pharmaceutical substances my body has developed a taste for, one of them being nicotine (ain’t the effort of being nice a nice thing for your mind when your self-confidence is just a little bit stressed by constant dehumanisation? That’s a rhetorical question, the answer is: meow!) or that I have read some books by and about and probably over-identified with Simone Weil who pretty much tried to live a feminine exemplary life and struggled with her religious upbringing while being a modern feminist. Truth is I find it hard to really hate everyone and find this mode of hating people on the internet weird and frightening. But that’s a personal preference. I curse a lot more in real life, must be my male side acting up.

Anyway most of what our dear critical feminist who seem to be mostly critical of trans women while being ambivalent about trans men and only hate them on weird-numbered days of the week think: Most of this is old hat and not at all strange questions to ask. They just happen to already have an answer to anyone who cares to look.

About being trans on a dessert island:

That’s an old question taken straight from cogiati (here’s a german version ) and shows only a superficial reading of the source material instead of say…Conell’s Masculinities which should be like…standard lecture for any serious scholar who goes as far as accepting the dehumanization of a part of the population, because that’s normally a bad thing to do. Or any feminist by the way since Conell also writes about the trouble with educating men to feminism and all the damage that was done because this has to be tried again and again until we are one humanity with one voice instead of people divided by socially constructed lines of racism, sexism, classism, ableism, ageism and general nastyness (I hope I don’t get in trouble for choosing exactly this order…but yeah). My point is that any attempt at all to try and solve the problems of this world during a pandemic where friends, foes (if one insists on that distinction in the face of a pandemic) and neutrals fall left and right due to a variety of illnesses should make one very humble and that I take issue with the tone these feminists choose to discuss a vulnerable minority. Dehumanizing people who already feel isolated is a dangerous thing — and I might have something to do with that because I recently provoked the usual ban from the gender critical reddit for daring to suggest that trans femme people should have human rights – it was about sexual violence which occurs when one is trans – both as a victim (more often) and as a perp (sadly, these things happen even to women intending to leave behind the violence associated with mainstream feminism. So I’m sorry if I caused this post to happen and am now being a brat about it. I swear on my reputation that I have good intentions and try to be as calm as possible, but this feels personal on a deeply hurtful level — knowing…entirely too many trans girls who have experienced rape in some way or another and have issues in this regard myself. I am currently healing but also raw with anger and it’s a weird feeling and I originally wanted to write something else somewhere else, but…oh well: There is a frigging chickt tract (hard-right christian propaganda) with my name on it (written before I was born) that basically says that pedophilia is ok is forgiveable in the eyes of god if the perpetrator just prays enough afterwards and regrets it a bit. It’s no longer in stock (gee, I wonder why) but you can find it with an moderate advanced search — try Rationalwiki about Jack Chick as a starting point. I know that we are tolerant against people of all creeds here, but this cannot stand and churches who preach this sort of gospel are inhuman and cruel. I am an agnostic or atheist by the way but I often get confused for a good christian girl. It feels like an insult.

Ok, I’ve said my part for the moment. Back to writing cyberpunk literature, dreaming of tabacco, alcohol and estrogen and working on my computer infrastructure. Thanks for putting yourself trough the ordeal of reading this.