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coronavirus empathy deficit hate misandry misogyny reddit transmisogyny transphobia

“Gender Critical” Redditors find a silver lining in the coronavirus: it might make trans women sad

By David Futrelle

So I’ve done it: I’ve found the weirdest and most delusional take on the Coronavirus yet, and it comes not from the incels or the MGTOWs or the Trump administration but rather from the “Gender Critical” subreddit, the main hangout of Reddit’s TERFs.

You may need a stiff drink to get through the whole post.

“With so many people forced to work from home,” someone called itsnotaboutewe began.

we should spare a thought for all the TIMs who are now unable to receive outside validation for their delusions.

Just remember that “TIM,” in TERF-speak, means “Trans-Identified Male,” i.e. what the rest of us know as a trans woman.

What happens to the man who calls himself a woman and who usually wears makeup, heels, and a smart pencil skirt to work when he no longer has an audience for his performance?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say “nothing.” Nothing happens to trans women that doesn’t happen to anyone else forced to work at home.

Does he sit in front of his home computer in pyjama bottoms without his wig and cry into his coffee because he hasn’t been told by co-workers how lovely he looks this morning?

If there’s any crying into coffee going on it might have to do with the fact that we’re in the midst of a horrifying and surreal global pandemic that could easily kill as many as 1.7 million Americans and millions more across the world, not to mention leaving billions in precarious financial situations. That all makes me a bit sad.

How will they cope without the constant validation they need to function as mentally ill misogynistic men in a society that no longer prioritises them?

Yes, the people who have to fight for the right to use the correct public bathrooms are truly the “prioritized” ones in contemporary society.

Does the fact that way more males than females are dying from covid-19 plunge their self identification into turmoil?

I”m going to say no.

Due to the different death rates between the sexes, and the fact that this virus doesn’t give a shit about how you self-identify, I think coronavirus has feminist leanings and is more than a bit terfy.

Yes, that’s right, a TERF has just declared that the coronavirus is also a TERF, because it kills more men than women and makes trans women sad.

Again, I’m not saying this; a TERF is saying this.

Itsnotaboutewe’s post got some 800 upvotes on the so-called Gender Critical subreddit, and inspired more than a hundred comments, many of which are as unlovely and nonsensical as the original post:

According to Artemis_Jade,

The OP’s question is very valid. Trans comes down to “I want to be TREATED as if I were the opposite sex.” So then, is it possible to be trans if you are alone on a desert island?

c1ar3 joked

If a trans falls in a forest and no one is around to hear xer, does xe make a sound?

tervacious made the same joke:

This gave me the giggles. If a tree falls in the ladies toilets, does it make a trans sound?

jennywhistle agreed

This is what I hate about transgenderism. They can’t deny it wouldn’t exist in a vacuum. All that matters is how everyone else sees you.

soundsfromoutside sounded more than a little like an incel or a MGTOW hungering for the apocalypse because they think it will return society back to its “normal” gender roles:

This pandemic and economic crash is going to wake a lot of people up to reality. We had too much time on our hands, we were comfortable, we were spoiled-all of us. We worried about shit that didn’t matter, fought over things that led up to nothing.

Now, we are right back to our primitive roots: survival. Food, medicine, our families, our safety. We are going to see a rise in deaths, a rise a crime. We aren’t going to be worried about who is wearing what when our parents and grandparents are in the hospital. Pronouns, names, clothing, these are all nonproblems now (undoubtedly, some people will still try to make this about them).

This gleeful celebration of other people’s (imagined) misery is not really a good look, Gender Crits — especially when you’re trying to pretend to be a progressive civil rights movement, much as the Men’s Rights Activists do.

I found only one comment in the thread that took serious issue with the OP. Someone called 54321_Sun wrote:

This is rude and bullying, and beneath gender critical thought, I hope.

I come to this sub to feel validated, but when I see things like this, I start to get sick to my stomach, because I know that these type of posts can be used against us, rightfully so.

Naturally, the other Gender Crits voted this comment down below zero, because that’s what happens in a hate subreddit when anyone expresses similar concerns.

Bigoted assholes don’t like to be told not to be bigoted assholes, I guess.

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epitome of incomprehensibility

We worried about shit that didn’t matter, fought over things that led up to nothing.

YOU ARE DOING THAT RIGHT NOW. AND WORSE. STOP IT. (That’s at the TERFs, by the way, not people here.)

@WWTH –

And he hasn’t even gotten to the eco-fascists yet!

Eco-fascists?? o_O …Ugh.

Quirks and Quarks, the CBC science show, was talking about the upsides of the responses to COVID-19 – how the social isolation measures have reduced pollution and how this could be a model for people in dealing with the climate crisis. But it seems gross to frame that as an upside of the pandemic itself.

Oh, here’s the link to this week’s radio podcast if anyone’s interested.

Raven
Raven
6 months ago

autistic trans* people can’t really understand our own genders

Erm… What?! What… the… fuck?! Seriously? I’d really like to see the “argumentation” for that one.
Would be new to me, that I don’t know or “understand” my own gender.
So, following this weird “logic” I can’t be a cis woman because I don’t “understand” my own gender and that means… I SHOULD have to transition? Although I don’t identify as trans? Or what? I’m confused, I’m so confused! Bullshit overkill!
Please, oh ye wise TERFs, come and explain to me who exactly I am! /s

Nicholas Kiddle
Nicholas Kiddle
6 months ago

Also, I get the impression (please correct me, if necessary) that trans people generally seek explicit validation not from coworkers but from friends and political allies, if anyone – and this is typically done in online communities regardless of circumstances. Workplace community (incl. customers) is actually more likely to provide the invalidation.

Can’t speak for all trans people but that’s certainly how it works for me. Obviously it’s nice when a coworker or random interaction is clearly gendering me correctly, but if I have to ask, I’m asking trusted friends on twitter. And yes, a big reason I have to ask for support is random interactions guessing wrong.

FlyByKiwi
FlyByKiwi
6 months ago

@Valentin I had no idea about the reptilian anti-Semite roots. I had just heard the silly stuff like (e.g) the Queen is a giant alien lizard etc. I just had no idea the depths of such bigotry. I thought I knew but this is eye-opening. I thought I had all the white nationalist dog-whistles on lock too until March 15 last year. The grotesqueries just keep coming.

NZ has moved to what we’re calling Alert Level 2. Some cases now community transmission cannot be ruled out.

I am extremely disappointed at the reactions of young well people. And panic buyers. And loads of people generally really. Can none of them think about others? I try to think of other humans as generally good and I am finding it harder and harder to do so.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 months ago

@ flybykiwi

Jon Ronson has written a fair bit about all this; and how the various conspiracy theorists cross fertilise each other.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/apr/07/society

He also did a documentary series where he followed Ike around for quite some time. Whilst some of his followers were definitely just using Lizards as a euphemism; the jury seemed to be out on whether Ike actually meant Lizards.

Valentin
Valentin
6 months ago

David Ike is a holocaust denier and he believes jewish people played for Hitler. He wrote it in his book

Dalillama
Dalillama
6 months ago

As Valentin notes, the while Lizard People thing is from David Icke, a man who considers The Protocols of the Elders of Zion an accurate historical document. Not just the Reptilians, but pretty much every conspiracy theory in the Christian* and Muslim* worlds is rooted in antisemitism at bottom.

*including persons who are not specifically of these faiths but embedded in a cultural matrix with them.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 months ago

@ dali

pretty much every conspiracy theory

I was wondering if Apollo might be an exception; but then I remembered the Kubrick theories.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Dalillama
And plenty of old antisemitic conspiracy theories still exist very similar to how they used to. For example, blood libel still exists in claims of a conspiracy to harvest aborted fetuses or adrenochrome, or the well-poisoning conspiracy theory became blaming the Jews for COVID-19.
David Icke is a particularly awful person, but most conservatives believe at least some of what he says.

@Alan Robertshaw
In addition to the Kubrick stuff, there’s the persistent allegation that all Jews were secret Soviet spies giving away space program secrets.

Masse_Mysteria
Masse_Mysteria
6 months ago

@Naglfar

So they’re angry at bigots for being bigoted against the wrong people?

As far as I understand, it’s not so much wrong people as it is too few people. It was like they were saying, “sure, everyone knows trans* women are horrible, but I think you’re letting trans* men off too easy”. Seriously not nice folks.

Ben Smith
Ben Smith
6 months ago

These people have no empathy.

epitome of incomprehensibility

Re conspiracy theories: what’s weird is the idea that ALL or at least most of a loosely defined group is “in” on a plan.

Like, how do “the Jews” collectively decide to, e.g., spy for the Soviets?

And it isn’t just the antisemitic theories. As a teenager I heard a few people hint that “the Muslims” as a whole planned the 9/11 attacks.

And now trans* people are apparently plotting together to ruin the concept of biological sex and the very fabric of reality!

All I have to say is, great coordination!!

…OK, seriously, what it suggests is people dehumanizing “the other” into a sort of faceless blob. But that goes without saying, perhaps.

Edit: if there’s one religious group that’s plotting something, it’s the Presbyterians. They’re always having meetings. My dad’s like, “[epitome], I need the Internet, the church is having a meeting to plan our upcoming meetings.” 🙂

Snowberry
Snowberry
6 months ago

@Ben Smith: Not generally true. The problem is that when you live in a tight little box, all which exists outside the box is chaos and madness. Your empathy is going to be focused on keeping people inside that box, and maybe occasionally “rescue” someone outside of it, because only evil people would let someone fall prey to the devouring void.

What they lack, generally, is the ability to understand things outside the box they’ve fallen into… or were forced into. Of course, there are cases where people fall into a box precisely because they lack empathy (see: most incels) in which case keeping people there is more about narcissistic validation.

That being said, the best thing you can do for dangerously misguided people is to not let them have their way, even if it hurts them in the short term. Things tend to go badly for them and the people around them when they get their way.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Raven

So, following this weird “logic” I can’t be a cis woman because I don’t “understand” my own gender and that means… I SHOULD have to transition? Although I don’t identify as trans? Or what? I’m confused, I’m so confused! Bullshit overkill!

I’ve mostly seen TERFs use that particular argument against AMAB non-binary people and trans* women (though I’m sure they could twist it for use against AFAB autistic trans* people as well). It seems to stem from Simon Baron-Cohen’s “extreme male brain” BS (which also implicitly denies the existence of autistic cis women). TERFs have also pushed a claim that autistic children are more susceptible to “gender ideology” (which has the added feature of infantilizing autistic adults). So TERFs just suck all around, basically.

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

@Raven

The argument (such as it is) is basically that being autistic is a guy thing™ — you know because autistic people lack empathy and thus are not considered capable of being nice to others so that individuals in the spectrum who can avoid the attention (a lot of them identifying with caring andor feminine genders or being coerced to do so) go by unnoticed until they decide to be nonconforming out of their own free will. Then people generally loose their shit as it where because the suddenly-free spirits used to be such nice and well behaved conformists until they decided not too for a change. Also a lot of them suddenly find it a good idea to express a gender they feel comfortable with — You can find a good primer on that phenomenon here: rationalwiki but a lot of this is also hype about a neuro-sexist hype that hasn’t quite died down yet.

I’m not a hundred percent sure if I am part of this group or just a similar one but some of my friend have a diagnosis for basically doing the whole girlhoodthing way to good and suffering for it. I also met some of the odd lovely gender traitors who wisely decide that their gender is their choice and sometimes shatter binaries to get there.

All of this is well..quite a burden for people who where raised by a different set of game rules where there was a some sort of understanding that sexism was a thing everyone simultaneously joked about and took serious and whose memories of that time have maybe become a little foggy by the brain slowly getting more optimistic about the past.

I hope some of that helps.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Lisa

you know because autistic people lack empathy and thus are not considered capable of being nice to others so that individuals in the spectrum who can avoid the attention (a lot of them identifying with caring andor feminine genders or being coerced to do so)

Just to be clear, autistic people are not incapable of empathy. I feel much empathy for many people. And I’m definitely capable of being polite and try to do so as much as possible. Some autistic people have some difficulty reading emotions and regulation tone and body language, so this may come across as lacking empathy or being intentionally rude even though it isn’t.

Allandrel
Allandrel
6 months ago

The “autistic people lack empathy” myth enrages me to no end, as it is not just false but also a form of demonization, as they compare us to psychopaths. In truth, we’re the opposite.

Now, it is true that many autistic people have difficulties with cognitive empathy: the ability to recognize other people’s emotions. What we usually do not have trouble with is affective empathy: the ability to feel what other are feeling.

So we may have great difficulty knowing what you are feeling, but we absolutely care. This is why so many of us have social anxiety. We are always afraid of upsetting people because we cannot tell if we are unless they tell us.

We’re also often so bad at emotional regulation that we can’t turn our empathy off. My job in pharmacy benefits gave me a breakdown because I couldn’t not care when our profit-driven plans meant someone could not get the medication they needed.

Psychopaths, to whom we are often likened (THANKS, Dr. Asperger) are often the opposite. They have little to no affective empathy, leaving them completely unaffected by how others feel, but their functioning cognitive empathy allows them to fake it. (See the psychology text The Mask of Sanity.)

Paireon
Paireon
6 months ago

@Allandrel – Huh, thanks for that bit about empathy – clarifies things about my own experiences. Also explains why while I felt that I didn’t possess empathy originally, I was able to develop it so well (didn’t know the difference between cognitive and affective empathy). In any case, what helped a lot in my case is that I approached empathy analytically an “rationally” – as in, “How would I feel if I was in this person’s place? What characteristics do I have that could make me respond differently from them?” – etc., etc. Made it a lot easier since I’m quite good at cogitating if I do say so myself.

Also, yeah, fuck TERFs. Really, if this is their response to a health crisis threatening millions then they’re the same kind of rancid trash as the manosphere, whose responses we’ve already seen here.

Also also, yeah, David Icke is an assclown, although with his utter lack of self-awareness and grip on reality I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t even notice at first that his reptilians theory cribbed from old antisemitic canards. Of course this absolves him of nothing, especially since even after being made to notice he keeps the same company; methinks the Holocaust denial is them rubbing off on him, because AFAIK it wasn’t part of his original screeds. Then again you can never be too sure with cranks of that level.

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

@Naglfar

You are right of course. I always feel horrible when I feel I have to quote those theories and manage to screw up the necessary contextualization leading to me feeling guilty/ weirdly happy for trying to do good again and being a brat while doying it — but I guess that’s part of the role…

Valentin
Valentin
6 months ago

Paireon- it’s not an accident. He specifically said he likes the book protocols of the elders of Zion and in his own book he wrote things about jewish conspiracy and that the holocaust didnt happen in the way everyone says it happened.

I think it is dangerous to say that he is “just” someone silly or even abelist things like other people say that he is “crazy” or “insane”. He’s not. He is a very creative anti semitic who realises he can get attention with his unusual ideas.

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

Also I hate smart software on blogs. I really should get an improved virtual emacs in my setup *sigh*
Sorry everyone.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Lisa

Asperger might have been part of the Nazi party and talked the talk (and surely helped to do triage on the likes of me -it’s anyones guess how that would have turned out) but some of the science — especially science done to honor his work..is still sound. You can’t just disagree with facts just because someone who found them used to be on the wrong side of a genocide at the time — if you cannot indeed prove bias. Considering we are in a pandemic right now, this is very important to keep in mind.

He also sent children to be euthanized and much of his work has been criticized in the years following. There does seem to have been a bias seeing as he worked for a eugenics program, part of which included attempting to eradicate the very people he was studying.

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

@Naglfar

True enough but a huge part of the suffering of people like me is due to the artificial #TrueAutistic / autistic spectrum / neurodiverse / neurorebel / ………… shizms due to this very conflict. Yes a mass murderer is biased and needs to be examined closely but…Americas claim to be the eternal good guys is sort of fragile at the moment and critics of ABA or similar programs have been very vocal about this for years. It appears that I sound like pro-nazi girl at the moment and this feels horrible. I’m strictly anti-fascist, anti-imperalist, pro-left and stuff.. *sigh*.

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

Still…in the interrest of a fairer two-sided perspective: What do you think would have happened to him if he had not done the unspeakable and told himself that it was triage? If he hadn’t divided them into usable savants and unusable automata? The very thing that a lot of psychologists now imitate in a hypercapitalist system? Yes he probably lied to himself to justify it, to profit from his hypocrisy and his violation of the oath/code (if he ever swore it) but … he was also a victim and his story needs to be heard. After a certain point in a far-right fascist org you are part of them and you know exactly what happens to traitors. That’s when people finally come to terms with the coward choices they have made … and often fail to do the honorable thing: to plant bombs inside the system. Instead they adapt and continue rationalization into deep despair. Still, I think that some of the science is sound and we owe it to the victims to look at it — lest we have to replicate the study some way or another.

Allandrel
Allandrel
6 months ago

@Lisa

I’m reminded of the long-running debate about the ethics of using the scientific data from the Nazis human experiments on unwilling subjects. Lots of “maybe we can make some good out of this tragedy” versus “there is no moral way to use data obtained through immoral methods.”

The thing that strikes me as odd is that no one ever seems to bring up a very important question: Why do they think that the data is any good? The Nazis were infamously corrupt and their scientists were under constant pressure to back up the ideology rather than be scientifically sound (consider their rejection of “Jewish physics”).

“Oh, Nazi scientists may have been monsters who performed horrific, fatal, and often pointless experiments on unwilling captives, many of them children, but they would never have fudged the data to get the results that their superiors wanted. That would have been unethical!”

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

@Allandrel

I’m reminded of the long-running debate about the ethics of using the scientific data from the Nazis human experiments on unwilling subjects. Lots of “maybe we can make some good out of this tragedy” versus “there is no moral way to use data obtained through immoral methods.”

Yes it is exactly that debate. Except that we are currently in a timeline where there will likely be the same discussions prefaced with a lot of other country leaders names. The Trumpist bioterrorists or the great britain immunity herders or the german storytellers could probably be such names.

The thing that strikes me as odd is that no one ever seems to bring up a very important question: Why do they think that the data is any good?

You either read the wrong sources or are trying to trip me up. That question is elementary.

The Nazis were infamously corrupt and their scientists were under constant pressure to back up the ideology rather than be scientifically sound (consider their rejection of “Jewish physics”).

True, they failed to see the obvious warlike and civil application of nuclear power, imported medicine and lost the race on communication technology, which is why, if I remember correctly, the US of A has nukes and Germany only has american nukes and some civil reactors. But please don’t forget that German scientists helped build the stuff, so you know…at least the ex-nazis saw the errors of their ways.

“Oh, Nazi scientists may have been monsters who performed horrific, fatal, and often pointless experiments on unwilling captives, many of them children, but they would never have fudged the data to get the results that their superiors wanted. That would have been unethical!”

The key word here is inefficient. Even their beloved Führer who was very much into magic and … well as one argument goes some very problematic art that required constant human sacrifice….did not look too kindly on war technology that failed to deliver. Yes, many of those experiments where cruel, unneccesary and shoddiliy done from any serious ethical perspective but they did not produce zero data, they just thought us a few horrible ways in which a human body can decay and die — and decided to do so in a pre-university format with lots of data points missing or drawn with metaphorical cryon. Still some of it was horribly efficient. Ze Germanz may have loved their Wunderwaffen and many sacrificed their lives for it and a lot of favoritsm happened, but in war time, bad ideas have a habit of disappearing along with their creator. If it was any different, we would not find any medical, engineering or communication technology to come out of a war — when in reality, the opposite is the case. Bellum omnium pater as Heraklit famously said still sorta holds true and only gets ignored when one believes history to have ended, as some americans do, thanks in part to to this book book and adaption in popular media.

Of course we have culturalized wars nowadays and weaponized memes are just another fine technology that will have to be studied. Let’s hope by someone else than Dawinks or some talkshow figureheads.

Your argument is purely cultural here. As the t-shirt slogan goes: Science..it works — and sadly, so does engineering.

A rock and physics in general do not care if you use it to make the most sustainable fire to cook the most sustainable and vegan dish presumably for a free-spirit community of mammotheers — or if you use it to bash a poor childs skull in to feast on it — or set up a cruel experiment to have a bunch of unfortunate kids canibalize each other in order to prove some weird hypothesis. The question (apart from the relative Merit of scenario A if you want to get data fast) is how to deal with data obtained from scenario B.

Even a nazi scientist can’t fail to get some data points right if he murders enough people to get that data. This is also how the US archieved a lot of it’s superior weaponry in regards to biological and psychological weapons that today have been demilitarized and helped create a spiraling pharmaceutical sector. A lot of todays drugs where yesterdays super weapons, a lot of “really cool medical tools” are ripped from some super soldiers kit on either side of a war and rebranded to taste. I’m sorry if that upsets you, but it’s how the world works.

The question thus becomes how those afflicted by non-conformity with neurotypicals can best become their free people in their own right, especially when they have intersecting issues with racism, (cis)sexism, classism…etc. I propose that those daring enough to have some milder scenario B techniques tried on them should be able to do so and be allowed to share data, while those that are very afraid of that help should be allowed to stick with type A data or, if that is prefered, the option of no treatment. Freedom is important but if you don’t even know why someone is different and just how to find ways to turn conflicts in the real world into opportunities for mutually benefical cooperation — the real thing, not corpspeak for partly coercive partly abusive synergy/cooperation — the situation stagnates and non-autistic persons will probably continue to be their obnoxious normal selves and make a lot of people in the spectrum suffer and mask. So unless you are proposing autism-supremacy (I have met people who do), I see no good way out of this dilemma of incomplete and dirty data and the need to have good data. I hope I have not implied that one should embrace the pain this problem brings but rather that it requires a solution.

Allandrel
Allandrel
6 months ago

@Lisa

You’re not addressing my point: I never denied that the scientists were competent, or that the experiments produced data. I’m questioning whether the scientists were honest, and whether the experiments produced the data that they claimed it did.

Nazi Germany is infamous for not being a model of valuing results over politics. Much of the high command structure was set up with overlapping duties, so that they would be working against each other instead of trying to unseat Hitler, for example. They had all manner of problems due to the pressure to take actions that pleased superiors, rather than actions that served one’s assigned duties. They were, quite simply, Stupid Evil.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Lisa

I propose that those daring enough to have some milder scenario B techniques tried on them should be able to do so and be allowed to share data, while those that are very afraid of that help should be allowed to stick with type A data or, if that is prefered, the option of no treatment.

I don’t quite understand what you mean. I think people should be allowed to seek therapies or other treatments if they so desire as consenting adults. I do not support the use of unsupported therapies on children as forced by parents, as is the case with some treatments.

So unless you are proposing autism-supremacy (I have met people who do), I see no good way out of this dilemma of incomplete and dirty data and the need to have good data.

I am not proposing any sort of autistic supremacy. I am merely proposing that I be treated as an equal by allistic individuals and that our voices be respected.

I hope I have not implied that one should embrace the pain this problem brings but rather that it requires a solution.

I might be misreading this, but to me this reads like you are saying that autistic people are a problem in need of a solution. This is a deeply ableist view and is that held by groups like Autism Speaks. We are not a problem to be solved. Some of us may struggle with certain things, but that does not mean we are a problem.

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

@Allandrel

You’re not addressing my point:

Because I concur on that point.

I never denied that the scientists were competent, or that the experiments produced data. I’m questioning whether the scientists were honest, and whether the experiments produced the data that they claimed it did.

I tried hard to say the data was both produced unethically and not accurate…i.e..dirty.

Nazi Germany is infamous for not being a model of valuing results over politics.

Yes and our infamy is legendary. Still…other nation states commit warcrimes too and also do unethical research .. and other bussiness.

Much of the high command structure was set up with overlapping duties, so that they would be working against each other instead of trying to unseat Hitler, for example. They had all manner of problems due to the pressure to take actions that pleased superiors, rather than actions that served one’s assigned duties. They were, quite simply, Stupid Evil.

If they indeed were stupid evil they did quite a good job of keeping up fighting for so long, did they not? Also they managed to slaughter a lot of soldiers and civilians with their stupidity which linked up great with the stupidity of the rest of the axis……..or, if you want to get geopolitical, with the stupidity that is nation states and artificial borders. Please do not underestimate the power of a lot of stupid ideas, communication technology and easily influenced people — not while Trump remains the god king of bad memes. In your minds eye you can turn me into some sort of Deutsches Blitzmädel with a medic bag who is confused about her cause, and you probably should if you must in order to take my argument seriously…but please oh please stop lying to yourself about the brutal efficiency of that ideology you dismiss as stupid. We have not won yet.

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

@Naglfar

First things first..

might be misreading this, but to me this reads like you are saying that autistic people are a problem in need of a solution. This is a deeply ableist view and is that held by groups like Autism Speaks. We are not a problem to be solved. Some of us may struggle with certain things, but that does not mean we are a problem.

You are and I am sorry. Also your avatar looks like a dog and I like dogs so…your criticism is quite powerfull, in case you did not realize.

I was trying to say that the conflicts betwen autistic and allistic people were a painfull problem to be solved and tried my best to say that I was a bit biased against allistics / neurotypicals…yet….

I don’t quite understand what you mean.

Sorry for that.

I think people should be allowed to seek therapies or other treatments if they so desire as consenting adults.

I agree.

I do not support the use of unsupported therapies on children as forced by parents, as is the case with some treatments.

I agree. Therapies must be founded in good science, especially when consent is even more of a concern than for adults with only minor psychosocial, financial and other issues.

I am not proposing any sort of autistic supremacy. I am merely proposing that I be treated as an equal by allistic individuals and that our voices be respected.

Good, then we probably have the same oppinion and only vary in details. Sorry for messing up a post and causing this much stress but a group discussion over a hard-to-use-interface while preparing for an important appointment and a tendency to feel seems to cause me to make stupid mistakes.

Allandrel
Allandrel
6 months ago

@Lisa

I tried hard to say the data was both produced unethically and not accurate…i.e..dirty.

If you agree that the data is not accurate, and therefore useless, then what are you even arguing about? Other than going on about how Nazis and other warring regimes do produce scientific advances, which no one was arguing against, or that the Nazis were Super Effective despite their evil, which sounds like apologetics.

And if you feel like I’m attacking Germans and German science… I’m not. I have repeatedly referred to Nazis and Nazi Germany. As an American who currently has fascists in power, it’s not like I think one group represents a country in its entirety for all time.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Lisa

You are and I am sorry. Also your avatar looks like a dog and I like dogs so…your criticism is quite powerfull, in case you did not realize.

I was trying to say that the conflicts betwen autistic and allistic people were a painfull problem to be solved and tried my best to say that I was a bit biased against allistics / neurotypicals…yet….

My apologies if I have misread you. The avatar image is my Siberian Husky. I now understand a bit better what you mean, so I apologize if I was overly critical of you.

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

@Allandrel

If you agree that the data is not accurate, and therefore useless, then what are you even arguing about?

Nuance, scientific and non-binary thinking from a leftist perspective which abhors facism but also the evils of ((post)modern)capitalism. In a thread about trans people, possible (disen)abling co-morbidities , some of them affecting youth and a lot of people who like to be nasty while everyone is stressed oh and proper arseholes at the last we are angry at.

Other than going on about hw Nazis and other warring regimes do produce scientific advances, which no one was arguing against, or that the Nazis were Super Effective despite their evil, which sounds like apologetics.

If defending desperate attempts to learn from bad and unethical science is apologetics, I hope you have fun siding with another ideology because you are afraid of science and will not indulge you further.

And if you feel like I’m attacking Germans and German science… I’m not.

You appear to do. I understand. If not please don’t and explain this to me. You sound incredibly angry. I might be to blame for that and am sorry.

I have repeatedly referred to Nazis and Nazi Germany. As an American who currently has fascists in power, it’s not like I think one group represents a country in its entirety for all time.

Yeah…just hope your country keeps the death toll lower than my country did or consider moving / living with the problem. Sorry again but…that’s sorta how it works….

Lainy
Lainy
6 months ago

@lisa

He’s mad at Nazi. You know the ones who raped,murdered,slaughters, experimented on abd work to death millions of people. When i was in middle school i read an account about a Nazi officer who took a woman toddler away from her ahd threw it at an electric fences until he died. That left me having nightmares for a long time and that is something to be angry about.

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

@Lainy

Completly understandable, what a horrible story. My personal trauma was a couple of shoa movies so I can relate..guess I’ll just shut up for now.

Allandrel
Allandrel
6 months ago

@Lisa

As Lainy said, I am angry at Nazis. My own country is well on the path to repeating their crimes, and a lot of this comes from those who are, if not Neo-Nazis, at least fans.

And a LOT of Nazi apologetics starts off with “the Nazis were actually super awesome at doing stuff despite being evil” and “looking for silver linings in their unethical science” before moving on to justifications, then praise.

So it’s a red flag to me.

And the Nazis human experiments were not just “unethical.” They were monstrous. Many of them were sadistic torture for no scientific purpose. The only thing we can learn from this is how people will justify atrocities. There’s certainly no honest scientific data there, and more than there is from the “work” of Unit 731.

As for my condemnation of Nazis feeling like condemnation of Germans, what can I do besides constantly include caveats that “I recognize that ‘German’ does not equal ‘Nazi’ any more than ‘American’ equals ‘Trumpist?'” You can tell I’m talking about Nazis rather than Germans in general because I keep referring to Nazis rather than Germans.

Yeah…just hope your country keeps the death toll lower than my country did or consider moving / living with the problem. Sorry again but…that’s sorta how it works….

I can’t. I’m a disabled dialysis patient who is at severe risk from the coronavirus, and dependent on what little social programs the US has for basically everything. I’m one of the “Undesirables,” and one who is at their mercy.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Allandrel
Am I the only one who found the repeated phrase “sorry but that’s sorta how it works” or similar to be awfully similar to the conservative refrain “facts don’t care about your feelings?”

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

@Allandrel
@Nagflfar

Writes something on a piece of cardboard paper to hold up for you to read

I can either shut up or let you goat me into discussing with the two of you who have decided to side against me in this discussion in endless circles until we have both wasted a lot of time and seen the other one in the worst possible light. Either each of us is stable and has no problem discussing politics like an adult, or I we each have to contextualize every phrase in here because we are all suffering. I have tried the middleground (being hurt and still trying for candor) between this false dilemma long enough and look where it got us. Please take your pick. I would very much prefer if we each cooled down and took a long pause from discussing genocide since we are all so obviously biased.

Lisa
Lisa
6 months ago

*writes a small addendum and tapes it on*

@Allandrel

Why the hell would I care what you thought about good vs. bad Germany, or modern Germans specifically in a global pandemic. How did you arrive at the conclusion that I liked my country? What’s next, you rationalizing that I am a die-hard marxist? Or can you just accept a non-hostile difference of opinion in an high-intensity thread like this one?

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
6 months ago

Not to interrupt the current Nazi discussion, but I have a question about the so-called trans bathroom bills. And since this is still technically a thread about trans issues….

Speaking as someone who’s worked in the food/retail industries for years, just how strictly are those businesses supposed to enforce who’s allowed in which bathroom, and under what circumstances? I’ve had situations crop up where the line to the Women’s Room was several people long while the Men’s Room was empty. Would a bathroom law mean i couldn’t give permission to the waiting women to go ahead and use the other bathroom (with the understanding than any guy who shows up gets to ‘jump the line’)?

Would the elderly gentleman who wants to accompany his wheelchair-bound wife into the ladies room to help her out be forced to stay outside while a worker who has NO medical training helps his wife ‘take care of her needs’? Would the cashier on duty not be allowed to advise a little old lady whose stroke left her with zero bladder control that she has permission to use the men’s room if the ladies room is occupied?

Just how much policing are retail and restaurant workers/managers supposed to do to enforce such a bill, on top of everything else that has to get done, and done yesterday? Because most places just won’t have a person to spare whose sole job on a shift is ‘monitor and make sure the right people go into the right bathrooms’. So how is that supposed to work out in the Real World(tm)?

Anonymous
Anonymous
6 months ago

@Naglfar

Icke’s a strange one there. Sure he did say that about the Protocols, but then claimed “Jew” was a code word for “reptilian” and has essentially stuck to that bizarre interpretation. If he is anti-Semitic, he’s become so invested in his specific flavoring of it that he can’t even remember who it was supposed to refer to. Plus, it wouldn’t be the first time his brand of cuckoo drew in other kinds of craziness to it. This is a man who believes most of reality is a hologram being beamed down from aliens inside the hollow moon, after all.

Naglfar
Naglfar
6 months ago

@Anonymous

then claimed “Jew” was a code word for “reptilian” and has essentially stuck to that bizarre interpretation

That’s the issue. He is claiming Jews are reptilians bent on world domination, which is obviously antisemitic.

he can’t even remember who it was supposed to refer to

I think it might more be that either a) he thinks Jews are reptilians as mentioned above or b) he knows it’s frowned upon in many contexts to openly recite antisemitic conspiracy theories is he tries to make it more palatable by replacing Jews with lizard people.

Comparisons of Jews to lizards and snakes have been around for a long time. This isn’t new.

NeedMoreFood
NeedMoreFood
5 months ago

The OP’s question is very valid. Trans comes down to “I want to be TREATED as if I were the opposite sex.” So then, is it possible to be trans if you are alone on a desert island?

For one, the COVID-19 pandemic isn’t the same as a desert island scenario. Social interactions are still happening all of the time. But it also shows how little they understand transness: Most trans and nonbinary people suffer dysphoria over physical sex characteristics. You know, those things that are with you 24/7. That is why most trans and nonbinary people take hormones and many undergo surgery. There is a social component to gender dysphoria/incongruence/euphoria, but it isn’t the only aspect.

Does the fact that way more males than females are dying from covid-19 plunge their self identification into turmoil?

Being trans or nonbinary isn’t a choice and can’t be altered by world events in this way. But even with that mind, it isn’t known why there is a gender disparity between men and women. I have seen some speculation that estrogens might play a role. You know, that thing most trans women take. Also, handwashing habits might play a role. Now, I am not sure if there is a consensus on why the gender disparity exists, but it shouldn’t be taken as a given that trans women’s risk is identical to cis men’s risk. Also, it is just that: Risk. Plenty of cis women are getting COVID-19 and dying of it. Likelihoods aren’t solid predictions.