By David Futrelle
Big day. Big big day. Lots of shit going on. Discuss.
Also: VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!
I mean, if you’re in the US. If you’re not in the US, I guess don’t vote, unless maybe you’re a citizen abroad but I don’t know how the mechanics of that work exactly.
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@Diego Duarte
Vaush is a shitshow in numerous ways. In addition to being the epitome of the “one single axis of oppression” view and his misogyny, he’s also hella transphobic. There was that stream which was so transphobic even he took it down (only to then later say that the people criticizing ContraPoints were “degenerates”). Or the time he went on a Twitter tirade about how trans* people need to shut up about misgendering because “he” and “she” are spelled similarly. BreadTube has turned out to be problematic, but he is possibly the worst person in it.
I’m curious what Vaush thinks is feminism, seeing as I’ve only ever heard him criticize the movement.
O/T, but I think this is the first thread in a while to pass 300 comments.
@Naglfar
I didn’t know the guy, but he came across my feed as he criticized the manchild ranting about Parasites winning the Oscar. I thought I was before a fellow leftie, so I subscribed. Didn’t take me long to realize he wasn’t another Shaun or Hbomberguy. His videos are trash.
Not surprised to hear he’s transphobic as well.
I kind of don’t want to click that video. Why am I sociopath?
So, AOC is getting dogpiled for complimenting Warren’s appearance on SNL.
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1236533635290890240?s=20
@WWTH
Because you don’t want to switch over to Bernie, when Bernie Bros would’ve liked you to, and are hurting the progressive movement by not rallying behind the anointed one. Which means Biden and the establishment will defeat progressivism and everybody will suffer as a result.
You inhumane monster, you /s.
That’s more or less the gist of it. Obviously it’s all garbage, because quite a significant number of Warren voters are also going to Biden, so her dropping out doesn’t necessarily favor Sanders. But try to explain nuance to a member of the dirtbag left.
Concerning AOC, MY FUCKING GOD! I remember when they dragged her for opposing Nicolas Maduro down in Venezuela, as if these White ass motherfuckers could even find the country in an unlabelled map, much less speak Spanish.
I was met with similar receptions when I tried to explain the delicate situation down there. This taking into account that I’m familiar with the regional politics, have been following the situation since 1998 and, in my professional role as an immigration attorney, have spoken to many of the 1 million refugees we have received.
But hey, they’re White right? So they know better! And everyone who stands against human rights violations are fascists.
@Diego Duarte
I’m not going to Biden, but I think I know why some Warren voters favor him over Sanders. Could it maybe, just maybe, have something to do with the way Bernie Bros treated them?
@Naglfar
Oh there is definitely a lot of that. Wanton misogyny will all but kill a “progressive” movement. However, lets not kid ourselves, from the comments I’ve been reading in social media a lot of them are also White feminists and disgruntled HRC stans, who dislike the patriarchy but have absolutely no problem with racism and/or imperialism.
Those were never going to vote for Sanders in the first place, and even placed their votes for Biden thinking Warren wasn’t gonna make it. I’ve been told over and over again by these people that I should have no say in the way America picks their leaders, as if Americans hadn’t had a “say” (read here as sponsored coup d’etats) in the way us Latin Americans pick OUR leaders. Not to mention Global Warming is a world-wide affair and with America being the historical top polluter, your decisions affect us whether we want it or not.
As I said before, there is still a long way to go before the Left achieves intersectionality. This blog is one of the few places where you will find people with enough empathy and good sense to try to understand other people’s perspectives.
Which is a damn shame. Everywhere else, they seem to resort to petty tribalism.
At ths point I’ll wait to see who get the nomination. Then I’ll get to work on getting him elected and holding his feet to the fire. I have serious reservations about both of them, but that won’t stop me from working to get Drumpf the hell out.
@Diego
The flag waver is a literal nazi
https://www.abc15.com/news/region-phoenix-metro/central-phoenix/arizona-man-described-as-white-supremacist-drapes-nazi-flag-at-sanders-rally
EDIT:
https://twitter.com/YahooNews/status/1236707423458594820
You and your Coalition Lost, Hillary. You lost the Electoral College Hillary. Your staffers that any other candidate hired almost all failed this entire Nomination Hillary.
https://twitter.com/jamie_agust/status/1236541306790436864
“YOU MEAN TO TELL ME I HAVE BEEN GROVELING THIS WOMAN TO ENDORSE BERNIE SANDERS TO ENSURE MY FAMILY ISN’T DEPORTED UNDER TRUMP, AND SHE HAS BEEN PRACTICING AN SNL SKIT INSTEAD OF CAMPAIGNING IN MICHIGAN!!!“
Beyond Parody Am I right?
Yes. Going on SNL will not impact whether or not she endorses Bernie, nor will it have any kind of negative impact on the campaign.
However, the flood of vicious attacks on Warren for going on SNL might just drive off people who were still on the fence about who to vote for. I mean, AOC was perhaps trying to do outreach for Bernie by liking that video of Warren and a bunch of stans just couldn’t help themselves. They had to completely undo that outreach.
So yeah, this mess is something that you would normally find in a parody and should not be real.
Also, Sanders stans can miss me with takes about how Warren isn’t doing anything to help the cause now that she’s out of the race. Her offices in Illinois are currently still open and her organizers redirected to assist with a progressive congressional candidate. Because, politics are not just about the presidential race and the progressive movement is not just about Bernie Sanders.
Okay, so I’m a day or so late and a dollar short, but: I’ve gone over the thread, and honestly? Y’all have been really damn rude to Perry. Perry has done their damndest to explain themselves and Axe and WWTH especially have been really awful to them. I honestly expected better from you two than shouts of “sea lion” and “troll” because someone disagreed with you.
And WWTH: This post (and all the other similar accusations afterwards) was uncalled for as hell. No one here denies sexism exists on the left, or that it played a massive role in Warren’s campaign. But to try and subpost and guilt trip and imply that people aren’t feminist enough, even though NO ONE actually denied anything (but instead pointed out that there are other reasons people might be upset with Warren’s campaign while saying that yes, sexism had a hand in it) is gross as hell.
Oh, and the comparisons between the Sanders base and GG was hella uncalled for, and absolutely inaccurate.
Dial it back. And, for clarification: this isn’t me being sexist and trying to tell a woman she’s being “hysterical”, this is one nonbinary feminist telling another feminist that she’s swinging the wrong damn way.
Heat and kitchens. Life is too short to coddle the delicate feelings of trolls.
@Hippodameia
Yet long enough for you to unironically go “be nice or fuck you.”
@Hippo: Thanks for providing another example of the EXACT SHIT I was talking about. Apparently life is also long enough for you to go “be nice to me and coddle my feelings or else you’re a troll and you can go fuck yourself”.
Because that’s not an argument we hear from actual trolls all the time, right? “Feminists are big nasty meanies and that’s why I don’t support women boo hoo.”
You are swinging in the wrong damn direction. You are labeling people who are actively here in good faith who are trying to discuss things with you as a “troll” with “delicate feelings” because they disagreed with you slightly. And y’all want to come out swinging about how mean Burnie Bros are?
Cool your goddamn jets and take a fucking breather. This isn’t a goddamn MMA fight, it’s a blog for fuck’s sake.
Go take one yourself. WWTH and Axe pushed back on Perry’s bullshit and you didn’t like it, so you attacked them. Swinging the wrong damn way? Go look in the mirror.
Ah yes, me daring to state why I thought Axe and WWTH were in the wrong and were taking a wrong swing is TOTALLY bad and I’m so in the wrong for daring to call them out for it because y’all declared that Perry was talking bullshit and thus I’ve broken the law!
You’re so right, Hippo! I’ve been a bad, bad feminist for daring to agree with someone that you didn’t like, and even worse, pointing out when you’ve all been unnecessarily shitty to someone who didn’t deserve your anger! I mean, it’s not like this has been an issue before where y’all chased off other people who were absolutely in good faith and circled the wagons to protect yourselves from people who have called you out for it!
Won’t you all pwease forgive me? uwu [/sarcasm]
Now you’re just making me laugh.
Why are you so defensive of Perry?
I’ve skimmed back over the thread and don’t really think I was out of line. But I’ll stop posting in this thread as the discussion hasn’t been productive.
@Hippodemia
Why have you spent the entire threading egging people to act worse?
WWTH, you weren’t out of line at all. Perry was trolling. But, yeah, this isn’t a productive discussion.
Oogly, perhaps you should take a breather too.
Woah, woah. Let’s simmer down here. I never called Perry a troll, or anything like that. Didn’t think I was speaking outta turn either. But I get it, emotions run high on occasion. Came in a lil hot? Sure, sorry, Perry
Also, can we not speak for me?
Come on, y’all. I don’t feel attacked, I don’t think PI is attacking. And even if they were, don’t need anyone to defend me On Here. They’re right about one thing at least, it’s a blog, wagon circling unnecessary. Least of all if I’m one of the wagons. I’ll feel claustrophobic 😛
Because I feel like they’ve been wrongfully portrayed as a troll by you and others and were treated like shit because of it?
Because you and WWTH are taking out your anger on someone who was legitimately trying to have a conversation and who will likely never come back to this blog because you egged on this behavior?
Because that kind of behavior makes you a hypocrite when you engaged in discussion upthread talking about the harassment and shitty behavior of Bernie Bros?
Because this isn’t the first time shit like this has happened on this very blog?
Because I personally got pissed off when WWTH tried to pull a “no true scotsman” on everyone reading and tried to make a false claim that people were “denying sexism” and thus implied that we weren’t being proper feminists when Perry in particular bent over backwards to agree with WWTH on that but also provide other reasons why Warren’s campaign wasn’t doing so well?
Who knows, really. It’s a goddamn enigma.
Well, thank you for completely ignoring my criticism of you upthread! It feels so nice to know that you think you’ve done nothing wrong and that the rest of us aren’t having a “productive” discussion when it comes around to pointing out that you’ve been dishing out unfair amounts of asshole behavior to someone.
I was mostly directing my comments towards WWTH, since they were the one who had the most to say about things. I lumped you in since you did seem to also get a little heated with Perry.
I apologize for that Axe, and thank you for your comment.
All I can say about Perry is I really did not agree with how they handled the points that they wanted to address. They did in fact respond to a comment about most people having sexist biases with a comment denying overt sexism. As far as I can tell, it all went downhill from there. I don’t consider them a troll, more like they were bad at reading the room.
Frankly, I do have certain feelings about some of the posts characterizing Sanders supporters, and in a less clearly heated environment I might have said more about that. However, it’s evident to me that it’s pointless to do that and it would only inflame tensions further. A large chunk of the regular commenters here are leftists who probably support Sanders. It hasn’t escaped my notice that few of them have even bothered to weigh in on any of this. I suppose it could always be a coincidence, but still.
I guess I want to end with what I think is the most pressing issue at the end of the day: Biden is just so fucked up. Every time I read anything about him, somehow he manages to gross me out even further. With his past record, his present statements (a lot of which are blatant lies about his record), and his creepiness toward women, I don’t think it’s too much of an exaggeration to say that the Democratic nomination contest is the real left-right battle. In any other democracy, progressives would gladly unite to at least hold their noses voting for Sanders because it would be just that important to them for Biden to lose. On top of that, I highly doubt that Biden would even beat Trump. I suspect he’d lose to Trump worse than Clinton did. Clinton could at least say she won the popular vote, and without all the voter suppression, she might have gotten the electoral votes, too. With Biden, not only is the voter suppression still a thing, but also… eugh. Not exactly Obama 2. Buttigieg at least supported a public option.
Please don’t let Biden win, because holy shit…
Okay everybody chill, what the fuck is even going on here?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the gist of what I got from the argument with Perry was that Sanders trolls were as prominent or obnoxious as the media and others make them out to be, correct?
If that was indeed the message behind the posts, allow me to disagree: it is particularly prevalent and toxic in the Sanders camp. And I’m speaking from the perspective of someone who supports him. I don’t think we can minimize what the way his base conducts organized harassment.
And just to say it out loud, I don’t think Sanders condones this sort of behavior, but I do see it online all the time. Is it on par with GG or Nazis? No, no way in hell. But it is seriously obnoxious seeing a lot of them band together and attack others based on perceived slights.
Just look at the recent twitter thread posted by WWTH where they are harassing AOC over a SNL skit.
I believe Sanders is the candidate with the better policies, but fucking hell can some of his fans get obnoxious. It is possible to support him and the fight against fascism whilst being critical of the idiots trying to hijack the movement to use it as moral grandstanding. And being dismissive of the harassment only serves to divide the Left further.
@Diego Duarte
In fact, for any political movement to endure and succeed it is necessary to be self-critical and to respond to said criticism. Otherwise these movements are easy to hijack (i.e. reactionaries on the left) and will fail. By doubling down on stances rather than responding, the movement fails to address internal issues and so those issues grow out of control when they could have been nipped in the bud.