By David Futrelle
Men’s Rights Redditors are getting their boxer briefs in a twist over news that Wikipedia is now including the Men’s Rights subreddit on their list of “controversial Reddit communities” alongside such names as r/TheRedPill and the toxic pro-Trump subreddit The_Donald.
“Why the fuck is a site like Wikipedia so against us?” a Men’s Rights Redditor called youhavebeenwobbled asks plaintively.
We contain no hate speech or “misogyny,” so why are we painted so poorly in the public eye?
In fact, Wikipedia includes considerable evidence to back up the charge that r/Men’s Rights is controversial, citing in particular the time that the subreddit mods encouraged subreddit readers to dox a random woman they’d mixed up with a troll posting inflammatory material, and the time that Men’s Rights Redditors, in league with 4chan, decided to spam an Occidental College rape reporting website with some 400 false accusations to render the site useless and make some point about false accusations or something.
And anyone who doubts that the Men’s Rights subreddit is lousy with misogyny is invited to scroll their way through the We Hunted the Mammoth archives for countless examples.
Or you could simply look through the r/MensRights thread devoted to this particular controversy itself, filled as it is with denunciations of feminist “cunts,” defenses of the maliciously antifeminist and anti-woman harassment campaign known as GamerGate, and at least one (sarcastic, I hope) call for women to lose the right to vote. Oh, and for some reason there’s also an extended discussion of “white pride” and why it’s not a bad thing, really, if you think about it.
“THE major reason why this sub will never be treated fairly is that feminism seems to be inherently opposed to the idea of men having rights,” complains one MR Redditor called Peter_Principle_.
Feminists attacked an MRA meeting (angry protests, fire alarm pulls, etc.) that was purely about men as survivors of rape. Despicable hatred made real. Feminists are to MRAs as Klan members are to African Americans. You could wave a magic wand and entirely eradicate from current and former existence whatever male (ostensibly) sexist movements you would care to, and the feminists would still hate MRAs and call the movement a hate movemen. The fundamental idea of feminism is that women are universal victims. The MRA as a movement contradicts this ideology, and so it will be attacked by whatever means necessary.
None of that is true, but you go on.
“Wikipedia appointed a board of feminists for curating their pages so as to bring pro women face to wikipedia articles,” asserts perplexedm.
They should’ve opted for a neutral role, but women appeasement identity politics is part of many technical divisions these days.
Now, you see the result.
Youhavebeenwobbled puts his complaint a bit more succinctly: “wiki is full of non free speech soyboys”
And then there are the white prideites.
“If women can have pride … And wear a shirt… men should have pride and get to wear a shirt without any blowback,” says TommySawyer. “Same with black pride and white pride.”
“[W]hite people should be allowed to be proud of their race the same EVERY SINGLE OTHER RACE is,” kahuna55555 declares. “White pride isn’t white supremacy.”
Alas, meanpride adds,
Being proud of your white skin is viewed “negatively” by some, the same way being proud of your masculinity is.
Truly amazing that anyone would consider this subreddit “controversial,” huh?
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@Weird Eddie: That, plus the men are barely profitable yet get paid 5 times as much. (Or used to, I haven’t followed how it went after they protested wage inequality.) Just “economics”.
And let’s not forget that there’s a lot of footage out there of men’s soccer players getting all dramatic about minor injuries while the women’s teams keep playing no matter what. It’s a classic case of women pushing through pain on a regular basis (periods, childbirth, fatigue, overwork, etc.) because they know they have no choice but to get things done.
@Weird Eddie:
@Fishy Goat:
Ooh–can we make the burnt penis a big ol’ Roman Candle while we’re at it?
To be entirely clear, faking an injury in football give your team a non negligible advantage, so I would say it have a lot to do with how referees believe men more than women about pain.
Similar to how an uphill battle it is to get painkillers as a women, at least compared to men.
I keep telling myself I know what this means. Nevertheless I can’t not picture a dystopian world where men envy women for the right to wear shirts. At the age of thirteen or whatever parents telling their children, “Sorry hon, no more shirts for you – you are a man now.” Defiant punk type guys wearing shirts just to scandalise people. Men wearing shirts in the privacy of their own homes, shirts they sewed themselves because you can’t just buy a shirt that’s tailored to fit a man.
Also makes me wonder about capes and ponchos and such. Court cases settling what constitutes a shirt. Maybe that’s where I should stop.
@Masse_Mysteria
You should write a short story about that. About the secret network of anarchist tailors who sew together shirts while the clothing police officers in each home are asleep. About the resistance that wears shirts to protest the government.
Out of curiosity, what would the men be wearing instead? Dresses? Robes? Nothing? If they wear nothing, they would be awfully cold in the winter.
Scifi idea: Turns out that the relatively high testosterone level typical of men, associated with toxic masculinity, is not a part of natural male endocrine balance, but rather a disruption of said system caused by (post)pubescent males wearing T shirts.
After that, banning T shirts for men provides theoretically an easy political solution to toxic masculinity. However, bitter resistance persists among those men who happen to be particularly fond of T shirts.
@Lumipuna
I’d rather like to live in that society: instead of having to take HRT, I’d be able to transition simply by wearing dresses. Presumably then I’d start producing estrogen on my own.
I hope you currently produce estrogens 😡
Biological nitpicking apart*, a society where gender switching is quick and easy would have my preference too. Heck, why can’t we be like the fishs that change sex based on their environment ?
* the definition of someone not producing estrogen is “a corpse”, not “a man”.
@Ohlmann
I know I produce some. What I mean is that in this hypothetical world I’d produce more due to wearing a dress. Because I have testicles instead of ovaries, I don’t produce feminizing levels on my own.
Also, presumably someone with ovaries or testes removed doesn’t produce any estrogen.
@Naglfar, @Lumipuna:
Since part of the purpose of the modern-day t-shirt is as a medium for statements or logos, would men in a shirtless world wear pendants bearing jokes or the name of their favourite band or sports team? I have a fond memory of a guy I once saw at a New Year’s Eve party in a bling-y pendant that read, simply:
@Moon Custafer
They could maybe paint logos on their chests. Or they could wear pants with logos.
@Naglfar:
(hope picture loads)
@Weird Eddie, Snowberry:
I mentioned a couple of months ago that at least some sports are taking this seriously:
Pay equity comes to curling: Scotties and Brier winners to cash in same amount (@CBC)
Really, all it requires is someone in charge who does take the idea seriously. That was easier in curling than a lot of other sports because, let’s be frank, curling isn’t seen as ‘manly’ enough to acquire a whole lot of toxic masculinity.
@Masse_Mysteria
Also maybe men could wear plaid shirts, but only on special occasions in Scotland. Then it’s manly.
@Jenora:
Curling’s one of those sports where people who aren’t involved have no idea how difficult it really is—my bosses insisted on booking a curling rink for our Xmas party one year, despite my mutterings that the sport was invented by the Scots to troll people when they realized golf hadn’t gone far enough.
My team actually ended up winning a bottle of Bailey’s each after I (purely by accident) scored the only goal of the day.
TL DR: I’m terrible at curling, but my co-workers are even worse, so I won booze by default. Still wouldn’t do it again, I don’t like cold and slippery surfaces.
Of course I didn’t stop thinking about it…
@Naglfar:
My initial take was that while men wouldn’t wear anything in place of a shirt, jackets would be okay, though you’d be the manlier the longer you went without one in the autumn (plus that takes it back to the what counts as a shirt thingie). Maybe overalls would also be acceptable, particularly since there are a lot of situations where going bare-chested might be hazardous.
@Moon Custafer:
Maybe there could be a rise in minimalism and any sort of embellishments would be deemed unmanly? Then there’d be a whole underground industry making and passing around rubber stamps or something so that you could make yourself really fancy really quickly with impermanent tattoos without the risk of someone raiding your home and finding incriminating clothing items.
@Lumipuna:
Plot twist: not wearing a shirt doesn’t actually do anything to your hormone levels, but the whole thing works because of a placebo effect. Our hero finds this out and can’t decide whether to share the information, since that might lead to things reverting back to the way they were.
O/T but this may be of interest to art fans.
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/jordan-casteel-interview-1781658
It’s about Jordan Casteel; and she’s an up and coming artist well worth keeping an eye on. Also some vaguely gender related themes.
@Alan:
Nice! I like that the article shows pictures of her studio and tools as well. Too few artist profiles get into the nuts and bolts.
This kind of reminds me of how Yinka Shonibare, CBE, was apparently told as a student his art ought to be “more African.” (In his case he responded by buying up a lot of wax-print fabrics and incorporating them into works that referenced famous European paintings. Also he never misses an opportunity to point out that those fabrics were originally English and Dutch and were exported to the West African market, where they became popular.)
@ mooncustafer
Yeah, I love the behind the scenes aspect of art. I love seeing studios as much if not moreso than galleries.
I really like her work though. I’m not particularly moved by anything non-abstract; but I can appreciate how good she is. And there’s something in her paintings beyond the mere capturing of the image. Like the hidden metaphor stuff in Holbein’s work.
@Moon Custafer
Shonibare is a great artist. I took an art history course some years ago and we discussed that aspect of his work and his use of wax fabrics. Plus, I’ve gotten to see some of his work in person because a museum near me has some of his art.
@Moon Custafer:
So this thing exists
In the Simpsons universe:
Haiku sports fandom?
@Naglfar:
(is envious)