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cis-splaining gender policing transmisogyny transphobia

Ex-pro-wrestler Val Venis loses it on Twitter after trans wrestler Nyla Rose is crowned women’s champion

You might consider sitting this one out, Val

By David Futrelle

On Wednesday night, pro wrestler Nyla Rose was crowned All Elite Wrestling Women’s World Champion after defeating rival Riho in a scripted match. What made this an especially dramatic moment in the already plenty dramatic world of pro wrestling was that Rose is a trans woman.

Rose’s win, not surprisingly, triggered a transphobic backlash, with some of wrestling’s more backwards fans attacking Rose on social media. But no one seems to be quite as mad about her win as retired pro wrestler Val Venis, who has been loudly broadcasting his displeasure on Twitter for several days straight now.

Here’s a little sampling of his, er, work. As you’ll see, his ALL-CAPS key has been getting quite the workout.

Naturally, he’s trying to present himself as the champion of “REAL WOMEN” against evil soyboy SJWs and “the male species” in general.


He’s also trying his hand at humor, but he’s basically only got the one joke.

Or maybe two jokes?

I would offer some sort of rebuttal to all of these but I’m not sure I have anything to add to this tweet from Twitter MuFo and self-designated “wrestlebitch” Rivka Gheist, describing VEnis, fairly accurately, as a “fucking haggard old pissbaby” and declaring that

Trans women are women, I would happily have them in my locker rooms and face them in the ring. Wrestling is for everyone, including those gender-expansive identities. … Congratulations Nyla Rose, on your historic win!

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

H/T — Thanks to Lizuka, who alerted me to Venis’ meltdown

Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.

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Croi
Croi
8 months ago

I’m really disappointed by this, David. I used to be a big fan. You were great against MRAs. Now you’re supporting males in women’s sport?

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Croi
Please don’t be transphobic. Comments policy and basic human decency.

Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
8 months ago

I’m really disappointed by this, David. I used to be a big fan.

I’m sure you used to be a feminist too. Oh and the manager is a close personal friend and always gives you a huge discount, no need to call him though. And I bet you’re never shopping here again!

Dude, the messes my cats leave in the litter box are more original than you.

I’d suggest giving your life some thought, but atrophied muscles don’t work very well.

kupo
kupo
8 months ago

@Croi
TERFs aren’t welcome here.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
8 months ago

@Croi – weird how the ‘feminist’ who think like you seem weirdly cosy with policing femininity, conversion therapy, more conversion therapy, the christian right wing, filing SLAPP suits, the idea of ‘trans panic’ as an a eptable defense – an shitty cousin of ‘gay panic’, and a laughibly poor understanding of science. (Example of one recentish, high profile event.)

Essence of Thought has a good video about the most recent Graham Linehan bullshit (trying to build a conversion therapist database), which is what prompted the SLAPP suit.

This is all off the top of my head. TERFs and transphobes are so transparently evil that it isn’t hard to show them doing awful things.

Blockers don’t cause sterility, and in fact save lives.

No one gets surgeries as a child.

The republicans sure hate blockers, because they know their transphobic base hates trans people. Why would you align yourself with the republicans?

‘Gender critical’ is bullshit as well, since it is freaking married to the binary, as well as traditional gender roles. Weird how some ‘feminists’ insist that, as an example, no woman has a deep voice, right?

Basically, you should do some reading and have a think, @Croi. While you might feel very connected with your gender, others don’t, or aren’t. (It’s different for everyone, though, because humans are freaking complicated.)

And if your transphobia boils down to the disgust at having to have sex with a trans woman… Great news! You don’t have to!

(Also, you are forgetting that there are more than trans *women* in the world, just saiyan.)

Let me pray to the mammoth gods that this post goes through, so many liiinks…

vaiyt
vaiyt
8 months ago

about TERFs:

Reactionaries are always reactionaries first and whatever ideology they claim to profess a distant second. That is as true now as it was in 1930s Germany.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
8 months ago

I wrote out a longer post with a buncha links (got snagged, nuts, i’ll email David tomorrow) but i realised i forgot to point out – if @Croi is sad or mad because people are dismissing their concerns out of hand, please remember: this isn’t anyone here’s first rodeo.

Transphobes say these things alllllll the time, and it has *direct repercussions* on the both the nebulous ‘people in the world’, but also actual commenters here.

Sometimes the people who have been hurt and know they will continue to be hurt by the opinions and actions of transphobes, can’t spare the energy to be *nice* to the people who hurt them. The have to save their energy so they can keep on fighting to be safe.

Requiring niceness from people who are victimised by the diatribes that people who say the same things you say is a super shitty thing.

That is basically the tired old “so much for the tolerant left!!!!!” refrain. It doesn’t work for people yelling about ‘white pride’, it doesn’t work for homophobes, it doesn’t work for any right wing group one would care to name… and yet, TERFs/transphobes seem to think it’ll work for them.

No.

We can’t tolerate intolerance. This is the paradox of intolerance.

From that link:

The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly paradoxical idea that, “In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance.” The paradox of tolerance is an important concept for thinking about which boundaries can or should be set.

The boundary here is ‘trans rights are human rights’.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

Thanks for your replies.

I know trying to debate with TRAs on a TRA forum is as hopeless as engaging with MRAs on ‘A Voice for Men’, but I wanted to explain one thing.

Feminist theory has concepts of ‘sex’ and ‘gender’. ‘Sex’ means whether someone is biologically male or female. Yes intersex exists, but there is no such thing as a human hermaphrodite. Everyone is either male or female. Also, intersex is irrelevant to trans, and many intersex activists resent TRAs co-opting their own struggle.

‘Gender’ means the social and cultural expectations around a biological sex. For example, that people belonging to the female sex are more focused on their appearance, take on nurturing careers, are less assertive etc.

Feminism maintains that gender upholds patriarchy. It gives males an active, dominant role and females a passive, inferior one.

Until recently, no feminists believed in an innate gender identity that might conflict with the physical body, and might switch between male and female (genderfluid) or have a bit of both (non-binary). This idea of gender as something imprinted in the brain rather than socialised is new to feminism.

In fact, gender critical feminists believe in the central feminist idea that gender should be challenged. Neither women nor men have to behave in ways that conform to gender stereotypes.

‘Woman’ is not a feeling or a set of social stereotypes. It’s a basic biological reality. But that doesn’t mean a woman should be constricted by gender stereotypes, quite the opposite. GC feminists believe that women should be able to take on traditional male roles and vice versa.

However, women don’t become men by taking on this gender role or rejecting the gender role associated with their sex. That is quite a conservative idea.

The biological reality remains. That’s why GC feminists, along with the vast majority of people from all across the political spectrum, don’t support male-bodied people competing in women’s sport – regardless of what is going on inside that person’s head. All you guys care about is the male who identifies as female. True feminists support women and girls.

I know you’re not going to listen and this post will probably be deleted. All I can say is that you one day read up on GC feminism and understand that it’s quite different from what you believe. It doesn’t support ‘gender’. The ones enforcing gender are conservatives, MRAs and TRAs.

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Croi

I know trying to debate with TRAs on a TRA forum is as hopeless as engaging with MRAs on ‘A Voice for Men’, but I wanted to explain one thing.

TERF confirmed. Fuck you.

many intersex activists resent TRAs co-opting their own struggle.

About 20% of intersex people are trans*. I don’t know who you’ve been talking to, but I haven’t seen any such reaction.

Until recently, no feminists believed in an innate gender identity that might conflict with the physical body

Well, Andrea Dworkin supported trans* rights, so this is nothing new in feminism. And there is anthropological precedent of trans* people (binary and non-binary) going back millennia worldwide. Trans* people have existed as long as humans have, this is not a new concept.

In fact, gender critical feminists believe in the central feminist idea that gender should be challenged.

If gender should be challenged, why have you all declared yourselves enforcers of gender? If gender should be challenged as a concept, what better evidence is there than people who identify outside the binary? If gender is to be challenged, you should support trans* people, we’re the ones challenging it.

However, women don’t become men by taking on this gender role or rejecting the gender role associated with their sex.

True. I, as a trans* person, fully support gender non-conforming cis people and their right to be so. I’ve never heard a trans* person say otherwise, but I’ve seen a hell of a lot of TERFs oppose GNC men and women.

True feminists support women and girls.

Indeed. And trans* women and girls are a subset of that, so true feminists should support trans* women.

All I can say is that you one day read up on GC feminism and understand that it’s quite different from what you believe.

Well, the more I’ve learned about “gender critical” feminism, the more I’ve realized it bears little resemblance to feminism, hangs out with literal Nazis, and actively harms cis folks as well as trans* folx. So no, I doubt I’ll ever join your side.

The ones enforcing gender are conservatives, MRAs and TRAs.

Well, I’m sure the conservatives that fund TERF groups are happy to know they have your help in that mission. Me? I’m very much in support of people of all genders (more than 2) doing whatever they want and being who they are. You clearly aren’t.

Makroth
Makroth
8 months ago

@Croi

Attitudes change. They become updated according to new information. They become more inclusive. And feminism is not a monolith.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

I agree feminism is not a monolith and you are free to think what you want, as are we. You’ll notice that although I strongly disagree with you, I’m not calling you evil or a Nazi. That’s how MRAs talk.

“If gender should be challenged, why have you all declared yourselves enforcers of gender?”

We haven’t. Read my post again. Gender means the stereotypes associated with sex. If a male person says he thinks he’s a woman because he finds himself drawn to feminine gender stereotypes, or because he ‘feels like he’s a woman’ (actually the same thing), then he is enforcing gender. If he said he wanted to wear feminine clothes while acknowledging that he is male, that would be challenging gender.

As the saying goes:

Conservatives tell you to change your mind to match your body.

TRAs tell you to change your body to match your mind.

Feminists tell you: you’re fine the way you are.

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Croi

I’m not calling you evil or a Nazi.

I didn’t call you personally a Nazi. I said TERFs hang out with Nazis, something for which I have numerous examples.

If he said he wanted to wear feminine clothes while acknowledging that he is male, that would be challenging gender.

Yet I recall a number of TERFs calling it out when men or women start doing gender non-conforming activities (i.e. M.K. Fain getting angry at Sam Smith for wearing a dress). If you want to challenge gender, start by supporting people who don’t conform.

TRAs tell you to change your body to match your mind.

I’ve actually never heard a trans* person say that. I have never seen a trans* person tell a GNC cis person to transition, yet TERFs repeat this empty claim.

Feminists tell you: you’re fine the way you are.

Ideally, feminists should tell people that. But if you think people are fine as they are, why can’t you and your TERFy ilk just let trans* folx live our lives?

Makroth
Makroth
8 months ago

There is a difference between gender expression and gender identity.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

The problem with Sam Smith was that he thought wearing a dress made him ‘non-binary’, e.g. not male or female. That could be taken to mean that one of the defining characteristics of a man is what he does (or doesn’t) wear. And THAT is enforcing gender.

Gender critical feminists support trans people living their lives. We have no animus against trans people. We just don’t believe that gender is innate or a costume. Gender is a social construct. Biology is real. Usually feminists would say this difference in biology shouldn’t play any role. But sometimes it does. And sports (going back to my first post) is one of the places where the difference between the sexes is important. If all sports were mixed, then women (biological women) wouldn’t do very well at all, especially at advanced levels.

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Croi

The problem with Sam Smith was that he thought wearing a dress made him ‘non-binary’, e.g. not male or female. That could be taken to mean that one of the defining characteristics of a man is what he does (or doesn’t) wear. And THAT is enforcing gender.

Sam didn’t say wearing a dress made them non-binary. They said it was a way to present themself. They never said it was what made them their gender. Sam could wear any clothing and would still be non-binary. Just like how I can wear any clothing and still have my identity. I don’t know how that is enforcing gender, they never said anyone else should or shouldn’t wear dresses. Your interpretation is reading into what isn’t there.

We have no animus against trans people.

Then it would be nice if you and your friends would stop making laws that get us killed and raped, and endorsing policies that promote violence against us. And would stop working with anti-LGBTQIPA+ hate groups like the Heritage Foundation.

And sports (going back to my first post) is one of the places where the difference between the sexes is important.

I’m not an expert on sports medicine, but all the studies conducted on trans* women athletes show that trans* women on HRT have lower bone density and lower muscle mass than cis women. So it doesn’t appear that they have any inherent advantage insofar as research shows.

ETA: has anyone else noticed the countdown timer being longer than it used to be?

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

TERFs always say they’re all for challenging gender roles, yet I constantly see them say that trans women aren’t women because they can’t give birth.

Because equating womanhood with having babies is such a feminist position.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

Because equating womanhood with having babies is such a feminist position.

GC feminists don’t believe women should (or indeed can) be having babies. We do believe that women have female biology. What we do with it is our business.

Then it would be nice if you and your friends would stop making laws that get us killed and raped, and endorsing policies that promote violence against us.

GC feminists aren’t doing that. All the violent talk is coming from the TRA side.

I’m not an expert on sports medicine, but all the studies conducted on trans* women athletes show that trans* women on HRT have lower bone density and lower muscle mass than cis women. 

That’s extremely counter-intuitive. Look at the size and strength of Laurel Hubbard and Rachel McKinnon when compared to their female opponents. And this is assuming that trans athletes are on treatment. Not all are. I believe this was the case with the Connecticut athletes who are controversially winning races and taking college grants away from girls. 

This article is from the British Medical Journal, a credible source:

https://jme.bmj.com/content/45/6/395 

The inclusion of elite transwomen athletes in sport is controversial. The recent International Olympic Committee (IOC) (2015) guidelines allow transwomen to compete in the women’s division if (amongst other things) their testosterone is held below 10 nmol/L. This is significantly higher than that of cis-women. Science demonstrates that high testosterone and other male physiology provides a performance advantage in sport suggesting that transwomen retain some of that advantage. To determine whether the advantage is unfair necessitates an ethical analysis of the principles of inclusion and fairness. Particularly important is whether the advantage held by transwomen is a tolerable or intolerable unfairness. We conclude that the advantage to transwomen afforded by the IOC guidelines is an intolerable unfairness. 

Consider Rachel McKinnon:

1) Was a mediocre athlete before transition, when racing against men. Now racing against women, is winning titles.

2) When compared physically to female opponents, is clearly much larger and stronger.

3) Is middle-aged, which would normally mean being disadvantaged by younger opponents, but this isn’t happening.

Catalpa
Catalpa
8 months ago

GC feminists aren’t doing that. All the violent talk is coming from the TRA side.

Did you look at any of the links that Rhuu provided?

Catalpa
Catalpa
8 months ago

@Croi

Out of curiosity, do you support the ruling that Caster Semenya is required to take testosterone blockers in order to compete? Why or why not?

https://www.wired.com/story/caster-semenya-and-the-twisted-politics-of-testosterone/

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Croi

GC feminists don’t believe women should (or indeed can) be having babies.

Take that up amongst yourselves. These TERFs certainly think so.

GC feminists aren’t doing that. All the violent talk is coming from the TRA side.

Can you name me a single cis person who was assaulted in a bathroom by a trans* woman? I could name you some trans* women assaulted in men’s restrooms. I could name you some trans* women assaulted by cis women, some trans* women murdered by cis women and men. Trans* people don’t endorse laws that get cis women killed. No, TERFs push laws that would have trans* women killed, that would have trans* and cis women subject to genital inspection (a form of state sponsored sexual assault). I don’t see my side as being dangerous to anyone. Yet you clearly value my life and others like me less than cis lives.

And while you’re at it, please explain why your side hangs with anti-LGBT conservatives and literal Nazis. I’m interested to know.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

‘These TERFs’ boil down to one person called GCMAdamXX who believes being able to give birth is brilliant. Some feminists do emphasise women’s role as mothers – not in the sense that women should be compelled to be mothers, but more celebrating motherhood, an experience that still forms a big part of most women’s lives. You will be hard put to find any GC feminist who believes women must have babies in order to be women. I’ve never heard of a GC feminist who thinks that way.

There are many examples of transwomen attacking women, including an incident that took place in a public toilet in Scotland against a child. Here:
https://www.scotsman.com/news-2-15012/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-on-girl-say-campaigners-1-4868945 I’m uncomfortable giving the link. But you did ask.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

@Naglfar Caster is intersex and I don’t know much about the case. It’s a different thing to trans. Less clear cut.

Catalpa
Catalpa
8 months ago

@Croi

So when it comes to the “biological truth” of sex, intersex people don’t count and can’t be used as an example of things being complicated, but when it comes to what level of testosterone people can or can’t have in order to compete, then things aren’t so clear cut?

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Croi

You will be hard put to find any GC feminist who believes women must have babies in order to be women.

I just found you one. The blog archives here provide many other examples of bigoted TERFs. These are the people you are allying with as a “gender critical.” Take a good hard look at whose company you are in.

Anyway, “many examples of transwomen attacking women” boils down to one person named Katie Dolatowksi. What she did was wrong, but she is not representative of all trans* people. In fact, I can find many more instances of cis women committing sexual assault or murder. The existence of Aileen Wuornos does not make all cis women dangerous, and the existence of Dolatowski does not make all trans* people dangerous. However, your transphobia is quite harmful when hundreds of trans* people are murdered annually because of transphobia. By supporting “gender critical” views you are supporting the policies that enable these murders.

And answer me: why are you ok allying with Nazis, a group known for misogyny? Read the links in my last few posts and get back to me on that.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

Naglfar, you asked me for one example and I gave it. There are loads of examples of transwomen attacking women. Google Karen White for instance. Do you really want me to keep going? There are websites devoted to keeping track. But I’m not comfortable with it because I don’t think all transwomen are violent any more than all men are. You challenged me to find one example and I did. Proportionately, transwomen are more violent than women because men are more violent than women. Did you know that one in 50 inmates in male prisons in Britain now claim to be trans? If transwomen had the same offending patterns as women, that number would be far lower.

GC feminists don’t ally with Nazis. Thing is, not believing in the doctrine of the female penis is a very broad church. It’s like believing water is wet. Nazis and feminists might happen to share that belief but that doesn’t mean they agree on anything else.

Catalpa
Catalpa
8 months ago

Proportionately, transwomen are more violent than women because men are more violent than women.

First thing, fuck you.

Did you know that one in 50 inmates in male prisons in Britain now claim to be trans? If transwomen had the same offending patterns as women, that number would be far lower.

This is incredibly disingenuous. You are conflating crime with violence, when it very much is not the same thing. There are huge numbers of nonviolent crimes that land people in jail, such as drug charges and sex work charges.

And since trans women are disproportionately marginalized and therefore more likely to be in poverty, exposed to drugs, and limited to sex work in order to support themselves, it would be reasonable to assume that trans women would make up a larger portion of the population targeted by the police than cis women.

Hey, did you know that black people are incarcerated at a higher rate than white people? Are you going to argue that black people are innately more violent than white people, too?

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Croi

GC feminists don’t ally with Nazis.

Take that up with your own. You can’t just No True Scotsman it all away.

Did you know that one in 50 inmates in male prisons in Britain now claim to be trans?

Actually, that’s less than the percentage of trans* people in general society (about 1 in 25 people is trans* IIRC). So no, I’m not surprised nor do I see trans* women prisoners as a threat. They are in fact more likely to be abused by other prisoners than cishet prisoners.

Thing is, not believing in the doctrine of the female penis is a very broad church.

Indeed, bigotry is popular. Though generally I would hope that when someone holds a belief, they’d take a good look around at who shares in that view. I know I’d have second thoughts if I found myself sharing talking points with Nazis.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
8 months ago

I would also like to know why TERFs are a-ok taking money from conservative groups? I notice that you completely ignored all my links.

Possibly because you couldn’t argue against specifics…?

Also, hey, AFAB here who is like… 75% sure they are a trans dude. I notice you also didn’t pick up on my very subtle “not all the transes are woman transes” sentence.

Why is there such a huge focus on policing one type of trans people, i wonder?

Re: femininity is innate with female biology – LOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLL

*Takes a breath*

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLL

*wipes tears from eyes*

Friend. No.

No, i can confidently, 100% tell you that it is not. I am an older person (when does middle age technically start?) And i could count the amount of times in my life i’ve called myself a ‘woman’ on one hand.

What does it mean, i would wonder? Everyone sees me as a woman, but what does that mean?

I have a period, and that ‘makes me a woman’. I could have children, again, that’s a woman thing.

This, of course, means that anyone without these markers have now lost their woman card. Can’t have children? Not a biological woman. Lost your breasts/ovaries/whatever to an illness? Not a woman any more.

I don’t think you would say an infertile woman isn’t a woman. Or that a woman on hormonal birth control is no longer a woman.

I mean, *I* wouldn’t, but i doubt you’ll answer me, since you completely ignored me before.

I don’t like pink or dresses, but i do enjoy baking and sewing. I will suffer through a rom com, but love true crime. I enjoy being around kids, but the thought of being pregnant is enough for me to feel a wave of dread sweep over me.

I don’t like fight scenes, and i couldn’t care less about car chases. I don’t like to drink hard, and i get upset when people are needlessly mean. I try to be a good listener.

So, at the end, what am i?

Gender roles are bullshit and can go die in a fire.

They are like horoscopes, just because you’re born into something doesn’t mean that it applies to you. After all, there are huge numbers of gemini in the population, surely their traits aren’t predetermined at birth by an artificially created concept like the relationships stars have to *our* relationships?

I don’t know what, exactly, masculinity is. I struggle to define both it as well as femininity. How do you define it, without leaning on either artificially constructed gender roles, or biology?

I just know that when people use ‘she’ to refer to me, it hurts. I know that i wish i’d learned about binding when i was a teen, i always hated that all freaking bras had padding to make a small chest look bigger. I know the thought of having to go a day without binding makes me want to cry.

I know i spent most of my life living only behind my eyes, never connected to my body. Every so often, i would hear my voice recorded (oh my god, it’s so high!) Or catch a glimpse of myself in a mirror, and be thrown… not out of my body, i didn’t dissociate, but close. Because how did i expect people to see *me*, to know *me*, if that was what i looked like?

The first time i connected to my body was when i was in my mid thirties, and got my hair cut off. If i had been alone, i would have broken down.

The first time i wore a binder i had made (safely, i don’t want to hurt myself. I can sew, it was the same pattern as GC2B. I HIGHLY recommend those for anyone else with a small chest, all i can personally attest to.) i did cry.

Once, i was talking to this fella trying to buy something off of kijiji, and he thought i was a man. He was a scoundrel who was trying to cheat me, but that memory is a fond one.

Anyway, now i’ve shared more details than i intended. You didn’t ask me to bleed all over the page, but the only way you might understand requires people to bare their pain and their souls again and again, so that maybe people will stop believing things that hurt us.

I also know that, if you think of trans men at all, usually a transphobe will declare that they are just confused butch lesbians, eliminating gay trans men all together.

I don’t know what i expect from you. I’m sure you’re too far down the transphobe rabbit hole to see that your connection to your innate gender identity is not something that everyone shares, and is in fact what makes you a cis person.

Maybe a lurker will see themselves in what i wrote. If you do, i offer you tissues and a fist bump, if you’d like. Navigating this stuff us hellish.

Unknown lurker, you’re doing awesome, no matter how you present, or how people read you.

You are you, and you’re great.

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Rhuu

Why is there such a huge focus on policing one type of trans people, i wonder?

Probably because of sexism. Transphobes think trans* women are men, and that men are more violent than women (and that women are weaker, how very feminist of them). They also believe the inverse about trans* men.

Catalpa
Catalpa
8 months ago

@Naglfar

I believe some TERFs have the thought process that, since women are oppressed under the current system, trans men are just trying to grab some of that male privilege for themselves, and that’s why they transition.

Alternatively, since being a woman is a downgrade in our society when it comes to power and oppression, then the only reason why trans women would want to transition is so they can gain access to women-only spaces (and assault “real” women). Hence why they claim all trans women are predators.

It’s a intensely gross argument and it completely ignores how important identity is to people, but TERFs are gonna TERF.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
8 months ago

Here’s the twitter thread I linked earlier, about your laughably poor understanding of science. Since, again, you clearly didn’t read it – here it is in image format.

comment image

comment image

comment image

The XX/XY thing you learned in high school science? Hate to break it to you, but that was heckin’ simplified, to be able to explain genetics to young adults.

Here’s a link to the thread again.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

Ok, a lot to answer. Here goes:

This is incredibly disingenuous. You are conflating crime with violence, when it very much is not the same thing

To go to prison in Britain you have to do something pretty serious. And there are many examples of serious criminals claiming to be trans. Including the most violent criminal in Scotland! https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-prisoner-branded-one-scotlands-11837767

Actually, that’s less than the percentage of trans* people in general society (about 1 in 25 people is trans* IIRC).

Hahaha rubbish! Only a tiny proportion of people believe they’re in the wrong bodies. Even most TRAs agree on that. If it was 4% of the population how come it wasn’t noticed until now?

bigotry is popular

The definition of bigotry is actually refusing to tolerate other people’s views. You are the bigot. I tolerate your views, I just don’t agree with them.

Got to go… Back soon (I hope).

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Croi

The definition of bigotry is actually refusing to tolerate other people’s views. You are the bigot. I tolerate your views, I just don’t agree with them.

Callback to what Rhuu said about the paradox of intolerance. I’m not tolerating your ideas because you belong to a movement that wishes to strip me of my rights. Think about it this way: if a synagogue doesn’t want to give a platform to a Nazi, are they bigoted?

Hahaha rubbish! Only a tiny proportion of people believe they’re in the wrong bodies. Even most TRAs agree on that. If it was 4% of the population how come it wasn’t noticed until now?

We have been noticed in various cultures worldwide which recognized trans* people centuries ago. It is mostly in the aftermath of colonialism that binary gender systems have been imposed.

Also, upon further research it appears that I was wrong about that figure, it’s 0.6%. My apologies. Still doesn’t excuse transphobia.

Also, the majority of trans* people don’t believe they are in the “wrong body,” or at least wouldn’t use that phrasing. That seems to be a simplification to explain to cis people and neglects much nuance of the trans* experience.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

Refusing to share a belief is not bigotry.

I don’t believe in the Qur’an. Am I an anti-Muslim bigot? Far from it.

The belief of a male person that he’s a woman is a belief, nothing more. We can be compassionate to such people without sharing the delusion.

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Croi

The belief of a male person that he’s a woman is a belief, nothing more. We can be compassionate to such people without sharing the delusion.

Seeing as the DSM-5, the American Psychological Association, the AAP, and most of the medical establishment support this “belief”, it’s a bit further grounded than a mere “belief.”

And yes, you could have compassion, but you have made it clear you do not.

AnnieS
AnnieS
8 months ago

Sorry, just a lurker, but why even debate TERFs? I mean, the clown just went back to “it’s just a belief” and ignores internationality, and every single thing that prove them wrong.

Also,

@Rhuu thanks for sharing your experience

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
8 months ago

@Croi – Not going to be brave enough to answer any of my questions, eh? Just going to fall back on your talking points?

Telling.

You’re intolerant, and you fall into the paradox of tolerance quite neatly.

Lainy
Lainy
8 months ago

@Croi

You could not be an ass but here you are being an ass, You’re intolerant. You might as well say ” oh I don’t believe in gay people, what? why are you being intolerant of that belief.” because your wrong and your denying that real people exists. Not only is it wrong it’s pretty stupid on your part.

Catalpa
Catalpa
8 months ago

@Croi

Pretty serious =/= violent. Drug charges do lead to prison time in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/penalties-drug-possession-dealing

I find it… Interesting that a trans woman convicted of multiple assaults (which is really bad, don’t get me wrong) is classified as the most violent prisoner in Scotland, and not, you know, someone who committed murder. What metric are you using to measure “most violent”?

And “many examples” is not a statistic. If you want to claim you’re using data that proves trans women are more violent, then you need to use statistics that actually measure violence, not just assorted convictions.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

Hi Rhuu, sorry, I’ve been overwhelmed by the content on here, and I’m using my phone which makes typing awkward (and frustrating when posts don’t go through!)

I’m also sorry to hear about your illness. In the eyes of GC people, yes, you are a woman. It doesn’t matter if you have a womb or whatever, you were born female, and nothing that happens after can change this biological reality. You are right to think that feminists often see transmen as victims. Look at the soaring rates of teenage girls identifying as trans. What they’re actually doing is rejecting the social ideal of women, or they’re reacting against early abuse. I don’t know your situation, but at least look at possible causes, like internalized homophobia. I wish you all the best.

Lainy
Lainy
8 months ago

Croi

Wow you really need to go fuck your self and leave Rhuu alone. What kind of piece of shit says that to someone after they just shared their history to you. And no, transmen are not teenage girls are girls. Get fucked and go away.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

TRAs are so aggressive. You don’t see GC feminists behaving like that. You sound like an MRA.

Rhuu wanted an honest answer and I gave one. Would it have been better if I’d ignored Rhuu?

Catalpa
Catalpa
8 months ago

@Croi

That’s it, you should have been banned for your transphobic rhetoric a long time ago, and targeting Rhuu with your condescending bullshit is completely out of fucking line. I’m contacting David, and I hope your path in the future is littered with Legos.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
8 months ago

WOW

W O W

Not sure where you’re getting internalised homophobia, but WOW.

I mean, honestly, it’s more of a this
comment image

With a side of this
comment image

Also, you DO see TERFs and transphobes being aggressive, you can’t no true scotsman your way out of this.

I wanted an honest answer that included your definition of femininity.

I wanted an honest answer about how your super terrible understanding of biology actually works, when confronted with new information. Have you had your chromosomes typed?

I wanted you to *think*, but I guess I knew you wouldn’t.

You know, people are always like “you need to be nice to the various ‘phobes around there! If you’re mean, you’ll just push them away!”

Well, I was nice to you, and then you broke the site rules about armchair diagnosing.

Now, in comparison with our other recent troll… Hmm… I’d be hard pressed to decide who argued their case worse.

And he was arguing that Mt. Penis was the most beautiful part of… all nature? Honestly it was just confusing.

(loving this longer edit timer, lol)

<3 to people who stood up for me, that was really wonderful.

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

Rhuu was upset I hadn’t answered. So I did. Now you’re all outraged at my answer? I was trying to be honest and kind. Apparently that’s not good enough. You expect me to say what you want to hear. Same old power dynamic… a woman can only say what the men want her to say. And I suspect men are in the majority here.

Rhuu just saw your question ‘re femininity. Femininity is a way of behaving. It tends to mean gentleness, caring, attention to appearances, softness, delicacy, emotion. As opposed to masculinity which is seen as ruggedness, assertiveness, dominance, callousness, self-reliance, logic etc. These are social constructs that form part of the construct that is gender. Does that answer your question?

Catalpa
Catalpa
8 months ago

Lainy, Naglfar, and I are all women. Rhuu’s a guy. So by your laughable understanding of statistics, I assume that you’ll somehow come to the conclusion that men are in the majority here. Not that the proportion of gendered folks here makes a difference in how wrong you are. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

And, yes, if you can’t give an answer that abides by the comments policy, then you shouldn’t give that damn answer. I don’t care how “politely” you cloak your bigotry.

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Croi
According to a survey a few years ago, the majority of the commentariat is female. Plus, as Catalpa mentioned, the majority in this thread is female.

@everyone else
Here is an interesting and somewhat relevant twitter thread on how the concept of “male anger” is used to hurt trans* people (mostly talks about trans* femme folx but also could pertain to trans* masc people).

Lainy
Lainy
8 months ago

@croi

I’m a cis gender womab and last time i delt with your kind i was asked if i was sure if the guy who raped me in a public bathroom was really a man and not a trans woman when I talked about being for trans woman in women spaces. All you terfs are fucking dicks who go for low blows and I hope you get banned soon

Croi
Croi
8 months ago

Lainy, Naglfar, and I are all women. Rhuu’s a guy.

Wait I thought Rhuu was a transman and Naglfar was a transwoman? What about you, Lainy?