@Kupo : okay. While you may have heard thoses arguments from closed sources apologists, they are entirely fictional and not based on reality. I don’t want to say that in a mean way ; they would be good arguments if they applied to open source software, but the term don’t mean that. (and it *is* pretty offensive to someone who have been paid to professionaly write open source stuff, but I guess you didn’t mean it)
it turn out that open source software is generally made by teams of professional, often backed by a corporation. Most of thoses accept exterior input only after vetting that it’s not, in fact, stupid or harmful. In short, the *ONLY* thing that define open software is that its source code is public. The most common other characteristic is accepting exterior contributions after checking they actually fit, but that’s not all open projects.
It also turn out that open software most definitely *isn’t* done by hobbyists. Few people, if any, contribute hundred of hours to a project without that being their jobs, and a lot of open source project just need a full time commitment.
I can’t stress it enough : most of your arguments don’t work because the situation litteraly can’t happen any more in a open source project than in a closed source project. It’s like saying a japanese house is prone to crumble because its frame is made of wood and paper.
Naglfar
4 years ago
@kupo
I once had a guest lecturer in college and he was a software engineer who built cars as a hobby and he thought agile was the best method for building a car because he could build a whole car in a weekend. He shared photos. It had a styrofoam body and he had never safety tested it and who knows what the emissions were like.
My uncle was a professor and he had the opposite happen. One of his students built an airplane and invited him for a ride; he politely declined.
A car built out of styrofoam? I’m having a hard time imagining how someone could come to the conclusion that that was a good material for a vehicle. I can only hope for his own safety and the safety of those around him he didn’t go driving with it.
Ohlmann
4 years ago
Honestly ? The anecdote about that styrofoam car have a 99.999% odds of being a fabrication. Maybe not from Kupo, but once again there is a big industry of liars against open source, just because a lot of company refuse the idea of open sourcing anything.
Then, there is the small and little part that Agile and Open Source have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER. It’s reasonably widely used for closed source project, and reasonably widely used in open source project too.
Note that chrome and android have a very large part of open source, and yet work. Google is a pretty big fan of open source, and have professional teams that do things that works, open source or not.
Sheila Crosby
4 years ago
@Allandrel, @Paireon @Naglfar
More and more I suspect that someone has a safe full of compromat on Republican politicians, either in Mar a Lago or the Kremlin. They certainly behave like it. There’s a slew of them that went from normal republican callousnes to acting like they have a secret base hollowed out of a volcano. I swear Lindsey Graham changed right about the time the RNC had their computer hacked by the Russians
kupo
4 years ago
While you may have heard thoses arguments from closed sources apologists, they are entirely fictional and not based on reality.
Mansplain much? I’m a professional software engineer, I’m describing what I have experienced. I’ve contributed to open source and closed source. Ffs.
The anecdote about that styrofoam car have a 99.999% odds of being a fabrication.
I was literally there this is my own experience this is not an anecdote I made up and when I cool off I might go find the lecture notes I still have saved in my dropbox and see if the dude’s website is still up.
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
4 years ago
Folks who make their living by DOING computer engineering tend to be more like Spock…(… a joke… is a story with a humorous colclusion…?)
those who make their living by USING it tend to be more like Dr. McCoy…. (… dammit, Jim, I’m a DOCTOR, not a computer technician….) 🙂
I’ve been in mechanical designing/engineering my whole life, using computers back when DOS was only 5.0 I’ve learned the biggest problem with computers is, the engineers do not make the decisions, the marketers do….
Naglfar
4 years ago
@Sheila Crosby
More and more I suspect that someone has a safe full of compromat on Republican politicians, either in Mar a Lago or the Kremlin.
It could be that the Russians have kompromat, but I think another explanation is simply that most of them realize that opposing Trump would lose them voters, so they go along with him to maintain stature.
But if they do have kompromat, I’d sure like to have a look at it if only to know the full extent of their awfulness.
Sheila Crosby
4 years ago
I’ve seen a kit car maybe 45 years ago. The body was some sort of plastic with (I think) glass fibre reinforcing. This was the body panels, not the subframe, obviously. Not the same thing as styrofoam, but not so enormously different.
@Kupo : if you had actual knowledge of open source, you would not say what you say.
I mean, seriously. That’s so far from observable reality that there is a problem. You can not know what open source is, but don’t pretend you know. Alternatively, you can say you are against open source, but then you need to use real argument, not the shit “it’s done by amateur” that is demonstrably false when 100% of the web browsers and like 75% of the web sites now run on open source software. (and while it’s most common in web industry, it’s not like there isn’t a ton of open source project used in all kind of industry !
I tried to chalk that to bad knowledge because the alternative is you being malicious. Plenty of anti-open source aren’t malicious, and I tend to want to not presume maliciousness, but you are cornering yourself here. Charitably, the very best interpretation is that you looked at open source ten or fifteen year ago, had a bad experience, and never ever looked back.
What particulary sell what you say as false is A – the confusion between open source software and a caricatural view of free software and B – the fact you confuse agile method and open source. Which, you know, are entirely different and unrelated stuff. And if an agile consultant try to also sell you open source, you should probably double check he isn’t a full bullshit consultant given that he try to push entirely different, unrelated things.
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
4 years ago
@ Sheila Crosby:
There was a big(ish) market for “kit cars” in the ’60s/early ’70s… most were made to fit on a modified VW Beetle undercarriage, or at least with the engine/transaxle snatched from said bug, with bodies of “fiberglas” a DuPont trademark for glass fiber reinforced polyester resin. This is the same stuff that GM (Chevrolet) used on the Corvette, tho as with anything, the quality of the ‘glas varied somewhat.
I did several of these with friends, the lions share of the kits were designed with the “very skilled” hobbyist in mind….
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
4 years ago
@ all mammotheers…
If I am the one who started this “open source” shitshow we’re having on here now, I apologize….
It seems every time I joke about computer technology being bad, it turns into a fight….
🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁
rv97
4 years ago
I would have to agree with what Kupo said, but I’m frustrated and sad that most or even all prop software is motivated by profit. They are generally better in usability although open source software does adapt to accommodate the more pro-corporate lifestyle we have (e.g. DRM-locked streaming, designed to let culture exist only and be used for profit) or to otherwise better interface better with proprietary software as open source software becomes mainstream.
I prefer to support open-source software as a result. I do use and sometimes prefer prop software in some cases, but with the exception of gaming, generally only when an open source alternative exists already.
Mate the distance between Bernie and Pete was changing up.
kupo
4 years ago
you had actual knowledge of open source, you would not say what you say
I just said I’m a professional software engineer who has contributed to both open and closed source. You can fuck right the hell off. I know what the fuck I’m talking about. You’re going to dit there and tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about or what my experience with open source software is? FUCK. OFF.
kupo
4 years ago
@Eddie
This isn’t on you, it’s on Ohlmann. I made a lighthearted reply to Moggie and am now being attacked for being rightfully skeptical of open source as the solution to everything. It’s like blockchain (the software tech, not the Twitter tool) being held up as this amazing tool that can solve everything. It’s not and it can’t. And because my experience with the trustworthiness of open source tools is apparently different from Ohlmann’s he’s questioning my credentials and flat out calling me a liar. This is not new behavior for Ohlmann and it’s certainly not your fault.
In England kit cars used to get a special “Q” numberplate; but that was also the same for imported vehicles.
Some friends and I had a Merc 608 van we’d bought in Ireland. When people asked why that had a Q plate we’d tell them it was a kit car and watch them get puzzled.
ChloroFluoro
4 years ago
“How can the Democrats expect to run the country, when they can’t even run a caucus?”
And Trump can’t operate an umbrella. Not to mention how many businesses he ran into bankruptcy.
Back in the mid-20th century (such a long-gone, quaint era) Adelaide Stevenson couldn’t get elected to the Presidency because he was divorced.
“How can he run a country if he can’t even keep his own household in order?”
Of course, the real problem may have been that Stevenson was deemed “too smart”. Nowadays, people want a President that they can “have a beer with”.
Sure, ‘Cause your beer drinking buddy can run a country. You know damn well that your beer drinking buddy couldn’t even run a brewery. But smart people are stuck-up elites, and we don’t them in charge.
May I just add, “AAAARRRGGG!”
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago
@kupo:
I can’t think of anything worse than open source software for voting.
How about closed-source software created by a company whose CEO and board chairman was an active contributor to the Republican presidential re-election campaign and who promised to ‘help[…] Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President’ (Bush at the time)? That would have been Diebold. Being ‘accountable’ can mean something different when the person giving the orders from the top is blatantly partisan.
And people were commenting back then that the software on slot machines was far better controlled than the software on voting machines.
Honestly, I don’t trust any software for voting. You use software when you need things to be flexible and to be able to change them quickly. That’s exactly what you don’t need for vote counting. You need simplicity and general reliability. (Meaning that some degree of error is generally acceptable as long as you have some way of re-checking when things are close.)
Moggie
4 years ago
@ChloroFluoro, did you mean Adlai Stevenson?
Jenora Feuer
4 years ago
Really, voting machines in the U.S. are the search for a solution to a self-inflicted problem. Not only are the procedures for voting on a national office decided at the state level, leading to inconsistency in methods; but then you’re voting for potentially dozens of things at once, including things that aren’t elected positions in any other country as far as I know. (Who thought voting for a judge was a good idea? See also Roy Moore.) The former may not be changeable short of a constitutional amendment, but the latter can and should be fixed at the state level.
In Canada, national and provincial elections are just ‘put an X in the circle next to the candidate and then put the slip of paper in the box’. No electronics at all. The most complicated elections are municipal, where in Toronto you’re voting for mayor, local councillor, and school board member (for one of four different school boards). That gets a sheet with arrows that you fill in the middle to vote for a particular candidate, and the sheet gets run through a scanner to verify it (pretty much what Specialfrog said). In that case, the scanner can verify the ballot is filled out correctly and keep a basic tally, but the original paper sheets are still the official results.
rv97
4 years ago
I see a simple solution to all the bullshit in the world:
– Ban capitalism.
– Force a climate emergency even if it conflicts with what everything else the US (and the world) stands for.
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Jeez. Am I imagining things or is there a whole alien language in people’s twitter handles nowadays? Looks like flames or a rose indicates a Bernie supporter? Obvious blue wave is obvious (Dem support) and snowflake is likely ironic/reclamation after the insults the right wing have slung for the past few years. Rainbow presumably means LGBTQ solidarity, since that’s been true since the stone age (c. 1990 anyway). But why would a Yangbot be using a telephone symbol, etc.?
Don’t suppose anyone’s published a comprehensive guide or anything?
ChloroFluoro
4 years ago
“@ChloroFluoro, did you mean Adlai Stevenson?”
Probably. I could have sworn that I looked it up and used the spelling that I found.
Just more proof that drinking beverages doesn’t necessarily qualify one for other tasks. ; )
kupo
4 years ago
@Jenora Feuer
Agreed, that would be worse. I was being a bit hyperbolic.
We Hunted The Mammoth
@Kupo : okay. While you may have heard thoses arguments from closed sources apologists, they are entirely fictional and not based on reality. I don’t want to say that in a mean way ; they would be good arguments if they applied to open source software, but the term don’t mean that. (and it *is* pretty offensive to someone who have been paid to professionaly write open source stuff, but I guess you didn’t mean it)
it turn out that open source software is generally made by teams of professional, often backed by a corporation. Most of thoses accept exterior input only after vetting that it’s not, in fact, stupid or harmful. In short, the *ONLY* thing that define open software is that its source code is public. The most common other characteristic is accepting exterior contributions after checking they actually fit, but that’s not all open projects.
It also turn out that open software most definitely *isn’t* done by hobbyists. Few people, if any, contribute hundred of hours to a project without that being their jobs, and a lot of open source project just need a full time commitment.
I can’t stress it enough : most of your arguments don’t work because the situation litteraly can’t happen any more in a open source project than in a closed source project. It’s like saying a japanese house is prone to crumble because its frame is made of wood and paper.
@kupo
My uncle was a professor and he had the opposite happen. One of his students built an airplane and invited him for a ride; he politely declined.
A car built out of styrofoam? I’m having a hard time imagining how someone could come to the conclusion that that was a good material for a vehicle. I can only hope for his own safety and the safety of those around him he didn’t go driving with it.
Honestly ? The anecdote about that styrofoam car have a 99.999% odds of being a fabrication. Maybe not from Kupo, but once again there is a big industry of liars against open source, just because a lot of company refuse the idea of open sourcing anything.
Then, there is the small and little part that Agile and Open Source have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER. It’s reasonably widely used for closed source project, and reasonably widely used in open source project too.
Note that chrome and android have a very large part of open source, and yet work. Google is a pretty big fan of open source, and have professional teams that do things that works, open source or not.
@Allandrel, @Paireon @Naglfar
More and more I suspect that someone has a safe full of compromat on Republican politicians, either in Mar a Lago or the Kremlin. They certainly behave like it. There’s a slew of them that went from normal republican callousnes to acting like they have a secret base hollowed out of a volcano. I swear Lindsey Graham changed right about the time the RNC had their computer hacked by the Russians
Mansplain much? I’m a professional software engineer, I’m describing what I have experienced. I’ve contributed to open source and closed source. Ffs.
I was literally there this is my own experience this is not an anecdote I made up and when I cool off I might go find the lecture notes I still have saved in my dropbox and see if the dude’s website is still up.
Folks who make their living by DOING computer engineering tend to be more like Spock…(… a joke… is a story with a humorous colclusion…?)
those who make their living by USING it tend to be more like Dr. McCoy…. (… dammit, Jim, I’m a DOCTOR, not a computer technician….) 🙂
I’ve been in mechanical designing/engineering my whole life, using computers back when DOS was only 5.0 I’ve learned the biggest problem with computers is, the engineers do not make the decisions, the marketers do….
@Sheila Crosby
It could be that the Russians have kompromat, but I think another explanation is simply that most of them realize that opposing Trump would lose them voters, so they go along with him to maintain stature.
But if they do have kompromat, I’d sure like to have a look at it if only to know the full extent of their awfulness.
I’ve seen a kit car maybe 45 years ago. The body was some sort of plastic with (I think) glass fibre reinforcing. This was the body panels, not the subframe, obviously. Not the same thing as styrofoam, but not so enormously different.
There are a few companies doing styrofoam cars now. The idea being they’re more eco-friendly and safer for pedestrians.
http://spira4u.com
@Kupo : if you had actual knowledge of open source, you would not say what you say.
I mean, seriously. That’s so far from observable reality that there is a problem. You can not know what open source is, but don’t pretend you know. Alternatively, you can say you are against open source, but then you need to use real argument, not the shit “it’s done by amateur” that is demonstrably false when 100% of the web browsers and like 75% of the web sites now run on open source software. (and while it’s most common in web industry, it’s not like there isn’t a ton of open source project used in all kind of industry !
I tried to chalk that to bad knowledge because the alternative is you being malicious. Plenty of anti-open source aren’t malicious, and I tend to want to not presume maliciousness, but you are cornering yourself here. Charitably, the very best interpretation is that you looked at open source ten or fifteen year ago, had a bad experience, and never ever looked back.
What particulary sell what you say as false is A – the confusion between open source software and a caricatural view of free software and B – the fact you confuse agile method and open source. Which, you know, are entirely different and unrelated stuff. And if an agile consultant try to also sell you open source, you should probably double check he isn’t a full bullshit consultant given that he try to push entirely different, unrelated things.
@ Sheila Crosby:
There was a big(ish) market for “kit cars” in the ’60s/early ’70s… most were made to fit on a modified VW Beetle undercarriage, or at least with the engine/transaxle snatched from said bug, with bodies of “fiberglas” a DuPont trademark for glass fiber reinforced polyester resin. This is the same stuff that GM (Chevrolet) used on the Corvette, tho as with anything, the quality of the ‘glas varied somewhat.
I did several of these with friends, the lions share of the kits were designed with the “very skilled” hobbyist in mind….
@ all mammotheers…
If I am the one who started this “open source” shitshow we’re having on here now, I apologize….
It seems every time I joke about computer technology being bad, it turns into a fight….
🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁
I would have to agree with what Kupo said, but I’m frustrated and sad that most or even all prop software is motivated by profit. They are generally better in usability although open source software does adapt to accommodate the more pro-corporate lifestyle we have (e.g. DRM-locked streaming, designed to let culture exist only and be used for profit) or to otherwise better interface better with proprietary software as open source software becomes mainstream.
I prefer to support open-source software as a result. I do use and sometimes prefer prop software in some cases, but with the exception of gaming, generally only when an open source alternative exists already.
And now Tom Perez is taking the nuclear option.
https://twitter.com/TomPerez/status/1225468833458245632
Mate the distance between Bernie and Pete was changing up.
I just said I’m a professional software engineer who has contributed to both open and closed source. You can fuck right the hell off. I know what the fuck I’m talking about. You’re going to dit there and tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about or what my experience with open source software is? FUCK. OFF.
@Eddie
This isn’t on you, it’s on Ohlmann. I made a lighthearted reply to Moggie and am now being attacked for being rightfully skeptical of open source as the solution to everything. It’s like blockchain (the software tech, not the Twitter tool) being held up as this amazing tool that can solve everything. It’s not and it can’t. And because my experience with the trustworthiness of open source tools is apparently different from Ohlmann’s he’s questioning my credentials and flat out calling me a liar. This is not new behavior for Ohlmann and it’s certainly not your fault.
@ weird eddie
In England kit cars used to get a special “Q” numberplate; but that was also the same for imported vehicles.
Some friends and I had a Merc 608 van we’d bought in Ireland. When people asked why that had a Q plate we’d tell them it was a kit car and watch them get puzzled.
“How can the Democrats expect to run the country, when they can’t even run a caucus?”
And Trump can’t operate an umbrella. Not to mention how many businesses he ran into bankruptcy.
Back in the mid-20th century (such a long-gone, quaint era) Adelaide Stevenson couldn’t get elected to the Presidency because he was divorced.
“How can he run a country if he can’t even keep his own household in order?”
Of course, the real problem may have been that Stevenson was deemed “too smart”. Nowadays, people want a President that they can “have a beer with”.
Sure, ‘Cause your beer drinking buddy can run a country. You know damn well that your beer drinking buddy couldn’t even run a brewery. But smart people are stuck-up elites, and we don’t them in charge.
May I just add, “AAAARRRGGG!”
@kupo:
How about closed-source software created by a company whose CEO and board chairman was an active contributor to the Republican presidential re-election campaign and who promised to ‘help[…] Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President’ (Bush at the time)? That would have been Diebold. Being ‘accountable’ can mean something different when the person giving the orders from the top is blatantly partisan.
And people were commenting back then that the software on slot machines was far better controlled than the software on voting machines.
Honestly, I don’t trust any software for voting. You use software when you need things to be flexible and to be able to change them quickly. That’s exactly what you don’t need for vote counting. You need simplicity and general reliability. (Meaning that some degree of error is generally acceptable as long as you have some way of re-checking when things are close.)
@ChloroFluoro, did you mean Adlai Stevenson?
Really, voting machines in the U.S. are the search for a solution to a self-inflicted problem. Not only are the procedures for voting on a national office decided at the state level, leading to inconsistency in methods; but then you’re voting for potentially dozens of things at once, including things that aren’t elected positions in any other country as far as I know. (Who thought voting for a judge was a good idea? See also Roy Moore.) The former may not be changeable short of a constitutional amendment, but the latter can and should be fixed at the state level.
In Canada, national and provincial elections are just ‘put an X in the circle next to the candidate and then put the slip of paper in the box’. No electronics at all. The most complicated elections are municipal, where in Toronto you’re voting for mayor, local councillor, and school board member (for one of four different school boards). That gets a sheet with arrows that you fill in the middle to vote for a particular candidate, and the sheet gets run through a scanner to verify it (pretty much what Specialfrog said). In that case, the scanner can verify the ballot is filled out correctly and keep a basic tally, but the original paper sheets are still the official results.
I see a simple solution to all the bullshit in the world:
– Ban capitalism.
– Force a climate emergency even if it conflicts with what everything else the US (and the world) stands for.
@Ooglyboggles:
Looks at latest vote tallies
Sees Bernie in the lead
Hits scram switch
Jeez. Am I imagining things or is there a whole alien language in people’s twitter handles nowadays? Looks like flames or a rose indicates a Bernie supporter? Obvious blue wave is obvious (Dem support) and snowflake is likely ironic/reclamation after the insults the right wing have slung for the past few years. Rainbow presumably means LGBTQ solidarity, since that’s been true since the stone age (c. 1990 anyway). But why would a Yangbot be using a telephone symbol, etc.?
Don’t suppose anyone’s published a comprehensive guide or anything?
“@ChloroFluoro, did you mean Adlai Stevenson?”
Probably. I could have sworn that I looked it up and used the spelling that I found.
Just more proof that drinking beverages doesn’t necessarily qualify one for other tasks. ; )
@Jenora Feuer
Agreed, that would be worse. I was being a bit hyperbolic.