By David Futrelle
One thing I’ve learned doing this blog lo these many years is that hate looks like hate, no matter what kind it is: Misogyny looks like racism; racism looks like antisemitism; antisemitism looks like homophobia. While these different forms of bigotry aren’t identical by any means, they do share many of the same tropes; a misogynist complaining we live in a “gynocracy” secretly controlled by women, for example, sounds a lot like an antisemite peddling some updated version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
I’ve also learned that these various varieties of hate sound remarkably similar even when they’re being promulgated by people who are ostensibly on the opposite ends of the political spectrum: the transphobia promoted by women who consider themselves both radical and feminist sounds a lot like the transphobia promoted by those on the far, far right.
I’d like to illustrate this last point with a little experiment in the form of a quiz.
Take a look at the quotes below. Some are from the Gender Critical subreddit, Reddit’s main forum for trans-exclusionary “radical feminists.” (All of them garnered multiple upvotes from other “Gender Critical” Redditors, with several getting well over 100 upvotes.) The rest of the quotes are from articles in the neo-Nazi internet tabloid The Daily Stormer, one of the most gleefully bigoted sites on the internet. See if you can tell which quotes come from which of these two sources.
The answers are below, or you can just click on the quotes, which are linked to their sources.
I) “If a man cuts his dick off, he’s still just a man.”
Answers: A) Daily Stormer; B) Gender Critical subreddit; C) GC; D) DS; E) GC; F) GC; G) DS; H) GC; I) DS; J) DS
How’d you do?
If it’s any consolation, I had to doublecheck a few of these to make sure I was correctly remembering where they originated.
Hate sounds like hate, no matter where it’s coming from.
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Opgga
You seem to be missing that B is about how the writer thinks it is okay to beat up trans women for being trans women, and it is not actually okay to beat up trans women for being trans women.
B does not discuss rape by deceit at all.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Unfortunately the way people seem to work is that they seem to prefer a concentrated source of power, wanting one person with the solutions. I think it’s how Trump got to power – he promised many extreme solutions and acted on many of them. I doubt people want to listen to the marginalized because they see them as a waste of time or money, or worse. “If they can’t make it on top (i.e. make money), they deserve their misfortunes” mentality, which has gripped the minds of those of my community.
I believe the left needs to be more radical if possible. Governments and companies I believe exist only to use people as tools, to make money or to make themselves look like saints.
Capitalism infuriates me and I wish it were gone, but if we get rid of it somehow, people will still see others as freaks and will want someone with power to get rid of them. What do we do with people who can only hate and fear letting go of it, fearing it personally threatens them or society, or it simply disgusts them? I feel like I could fall into such a mentality too. I probably shouldn’t even be here.
Also we should start considering transphobes terrorists.
Trans* women are women. Do people question cishet women about their gender and/or sexual orientation before sleeping with them? Is them not being entirely forthcoming with the aforementioned a form of rape?
No? Then it’s not fucking rape and the double standard here relies on the old trope that trans* women are actually men “deceiving” people into having sex with them.
Trans* women are people, not fucking leanan sidhe or succubi out for your blood.
@Opgga
Beating someone up is assault. That includes beating someone up for being trans*, which depending on jurisdictions may be considered a hate crime as well (it should be considered a hate crime but isn’t in some places). One shouldn’t call themself a feminist if they support violence against women.
I’ve also heard other TERFs argue that trans* women who have sex with transphobic lesbians who don’t know at the time should be prosecuted for rape. In both cases, it seems TERFs massively overestimate how much people want to fuck people who hate them. I think I speak for all my trans* siblings in saying we don’t want to have sex with transphobes.
Sorta O/T: You may remember a TERF called Posie Parker from when she appeared on a white supremacist podcast. Well, here’s what she’s up to now (TW: discussion of domestic violence, victim blaming).
I’m a bit worried that my absolute disdain might not have carried through the medium of text, so to be clearer, Oppga, I find your attempt to normalize transmisogynistic violence by sexual partners or would-be sexual partners by pretending not to even notice that’s what the statement was about to be disgusting and obvious.
@rv97
For possibly the final time we do not have to convince these people that they are wrong or to be on our side in order to have value. There will always be those who will disagree. Do you think my rapist would ever admit that he did wrong or think he was wrong for how he attacked me? Do you think he would even consider it an attack? No he most certainly will not. But I don’t need that.
I don’t need his apology or pain to fight against rape culture and rapist. What i need to get at is the people who do care. The people who are vulnerable and the people who have been hurt. I need to be involved on my government and help those who are victims to get justice. We don’t need to turn misogynist into feminist. They are stuck on that path but that doesn’t mean we stop teaching feminism to those who haven’t learned it yet, or want to learn it, or need to learn it.
You want religion to disappear but it won’t. You want the concept of gender to disappear but it won’t because like it or not these are key parts and important to society. I believe God is with me everyday and try to live my life in a way Jesus would want me too that involves helping and loving others. There isn’t anything you could really say to convince me god isn’t with me and i wouldn’t want you to because it gives me great peace in life. It means something to a lot of people and that’s why it will stay. You really need to get off the hang up about convincing bad people to be good. They teach you in kindergarden you can’t control what other people think or do. You can only worry about yourself.
@opgga
That is very disrespectful what you just said to actual rape survivors. No it’s not rape by deception. They aren’t removing a condom without the others consent in the middle of the act. Really if I want to have sex with a woman even if I was assuming she was cis and we got nude and she has a penis instead of a vagina. She did not just sexual assault me anymore then if i got naked with someone and found out they had tattoos or scars or birth marks. And if I’m the type of person who doesn’t want to have sex with someone with a penis or any penis at all I can just say that I’ve changed my mind and I’m not actually feeling it anymore. The same you could be with a partner if you got naked with them and discovered unpleasant body oder. You are well with in your rights to just simply say you changed your mind and leave. Now of the person assaults or threatens you after you draw a boundary that is not the same thing. Now say this trans woman has a vagina instead of a penis and you have sex with them and find out they once had a penis. They did not just rape you because you don’t like penises. Because she did not have a penis she had a vagina and you signed up for sex with some with a vagina.
RE: Contrapoints
I’ve…done my best to stay out of that whole thing. I’m not trans, let alone NB, but just observing all the sniping that was essentially going in one direction in the wake of just a couple of tweets about her personal experiences… it’s a little difficult to accept that the professed hurt on the part of the countless anime-avatared enby-identifying Twitter accounts may not be quite as good-faith as they want the rest of us to believe.
Cuz seriously, you don’t like a content creator, you just don’t watch them. But the sheer vehemence and the essentializing going on with Natalie was just so over-the-top that it struck me as less “we want this person to adjust their behaviour” and more “I want this person destroyed.” It didn’t help when those same Twitter dogpilers started going after Natalie’s friends, guilt-by-association style.
*sigh* I’m glad I just use Twitter for porn.
I was sure that B would be the Daily Stormer, if only because I couldn’t see feminists being OK with angry, sexually frustrated or panicked men beating someone up.
Nope.
@Oppga : more importantly than what other people have said : IT’S NOT SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY HAPPEN.
It’s similar to the fantasy of having mexican gangs rove through the frontier to pillage farms and who is used by gun owners to re-ensure that yes, they need guns. It’s similar to the “gangs of negroes” some say will enslave white girls into prostitution if you don’t defend them. It’s similar to the fantasm that there is a council of jews that oversee all porno production. It’s similar to the people that say that trans* go in toilets to harass and/or rape people. It’s physically possible, but it don’t happen.
It don’t happen because that’s fucking stupid and dangerous to do that. There’s very little if any gain in doing that, it’s dangerous, and it’s not something that most people are interested in even doing to begin with.
The role of thoses fantasy is to justify violence against a discriminated group. That’s why they never point to actual incidents or anything ; they just want to make a vaguely realistic point to justify themselves. The fact it’s stupid and don’t happen isn’t instantly visible, and if you don’t make an effort thinking about it you could be tricked into thinking that it’s a real problem.
@James Hutchings
These are people who are happy to hide behind the police when other feminists try to shut down their hate speech, so it does kind of follow.
@Cyborgette
In general, most of the alt-right is happy to hide behind the police and play the victim whenever anyone opposes them on any grounds. Ergo, TERFs do the same. I’m not sure if TERFs are part of the alt-right, but they certainly would fit right in over there.
I read that as: I’m not trans/enby, but I’m 100% going to judge that those who are complaining about this person are lying about being enby.
You’re right, you should stay out of it.
@Lainy
I’m starting to think I’m one of those bad people. I don’t think I deserve to have a good life because of some of my beliefs and fucked up urges that aren’t just related to gender and religion.
The only reason I believe I’m still here is because I feel like anywhere else, especially those that find joy in leftists’ misery, would be really shitty regarding gender, the main issue that’s particularly bugging me.
The TERF claims about trans* women committing “rape by fraud” are along the same lines as many other radfem arguments that I have seen. Some years ago there was an article where the writer set about to explain to women who believed they had consented to sex with a man that they had, in fact, been raped – if they checked off anything on a list, which included, I kid you not:
– He has ever been to a strip club and hasn’t told you.
This is also one of the main angles used by Professional Liar Gail Dines in her SWERF presentations, where she declares herself the arbiter of sex workers’ consent in porn. Female performers only THINK their consent was genuine, but Dines knows better. (She never even addresses male performers’ consent, because like other radfems she embraces and promotes the patriarchal “any man will have sex with any woman at the drop of a hat” myth.)
Out of curiosity, are there still any self-identified “radical feminists” that aren’t TERFs/SWERFs? These days it seems the only people who call themselves radfems are TERFs and the like, but IIRC the definition of the term doesn’t necessitate bigotry, so are there any that aren’t bigoted?
IIRC, some have identified themselves in this community in recent years.
@Ohlmann
Ok, that makes sense.
For some background; I’m nonbinary. I understand that straight cis people (male and female) have some very harmful ideas that queer folks want to “trap” them into sex- I get that shit for both my gender and my sexual orientation. And it’s not that I find violence ever ok either, I don’t think that I could ever really hurt anyone that’s hurt me like was suggested in that quote.
It’s just that I find it deceitful not to disclose major stuff before sex. It’s not just the gender stuff, a lot of people stop being interested in me when they find out I’m bisexual. Still think it’s necessary to disclose all that first.
@Naglfar:
I’ve noticed that as well, and it does seem to be a recent phenomenon. I could be totally off base… but here are few potential reasons, in my opinion:
1. Most simply, “radical feminism” is associated with the Second Wave, which was in aggregate fairly transphobic. The reason that the term is only recently becoming associated with transphobia may simply be because trans politics have become more central to mainstream feminism. Hence, people are noticing (and criticizing) the connection more, and the term is taking on more negative connotation.
2. While I don’t think radical feminism is intrinsically anti-trans, I would argue that it provides a pretty congenial ideological framework for people who are. Radical feminists tend to argue that the gender binary is completely artificial, and one can see how trans people could be seen as implicitly reaffirming the binary. (I don’t agree, to be clear, but I can understand the thinking.)
3. Radical feminists (again, largely due to associations with the Second Wave) are identified with a a viewpoint that more or less takes gendered oppression as a kind of ur-prejudice, a model and for all others and basically the fundamental injustice of human civilization. (In that, they’re like Marx.) Modern feminists, on the other hand, take a more “intersectional” approach, which is somewhat at odds with the “ultimate prejudice” idea. So the term has basically fallen into some disuse, except in TERFland.
If I recall correctly, I think Dallillama identifies as a radical feminist? Not one of the shitty exclusionary ones, but the ones who think that sexism can’t be fixed with incremental changes to a horribly messed up system.
Or I could be misremembering, because I believe she also identifies as a libertarian but no not that kind of libertarian. The anarchocommunist kind (which, if I recall correctly, was the original meaning of the word libertarian before the capitalist chuds took it over).
Don’t take my word for it, though, unless she confirms my half-remembered notions.
Does nobody get that if you call someone a TERF and then say that they’re not a feminist then you’re literally contradicting yourself?
“This person is a TERFeminist” cannot coexist with “This person is not a feminist”.
All the other stuff is just to say that saying that if someone acts out oppression they can’t be a feminist is both a no-true-scotsman and also not helpful. It makes it harder to call out other oppressions in feminist spaces if providing feedback that some action or statement was oppressive always simultaneously implies that the person doesn’t belong in feminist space.
Emma Goldman was not mentioned for cissexism, btw, she was mentioned primarily for her ableism and her willingness to use violence. Steinem I mentioned primarily for racism and heterosexism. She supported the lavender purge and was known to try to keep issues of racism from being discussed in feminist spaces in the early 70s – though she did get better – because she thought that eliminating any discussion of racism would make the movement more unified and effective and welcoming.
The point is not that everyone we carelessly label as a TERF must be a feminist, but rather that just because someone is a feminist doesn’t prove that they aren’t acting out racism or cissexism, etc.
For those transphobia that aren’t actually feminist, just don’t call them TERFs (there are plenty of other good terms, like FART): they can’t be a TERF if they aren’t a feminist.
@Crip Dyke : we don’t get that because it’s not contradicting oneself.
It’s similar to say that national-socialists aren’t, you know, socialists. They are jsut nazis. TERF was at first their descriptors, and even when some refute the label since it have become toxic, the ideas are the same.
And, sorry, but it’s not like there is a detectable amount of TERF who are feminist. TERF is a bunch of at best conservative people who are somewhat aware of what feminism is, but don’t actually follow up.
I am a radical feminist but fuck if I’ll say that to anyone who doesn’t already know my values/politics because I don’t want to be associated with these fucks. It’s usually not worth the effort to add a bunch of disclaimers or definitions of the meaning of radical, and how often is the distinction important?
Re: whether TERFs are feminists, I agree with Crip Dyke that we can’t just no-true-scotsman away their feminism. Just like we have to fucking acknowledge the White Feminism problem, we have to acknowledge the anti-trans (ant anti-sex work) problem. And we also shouldn’t use TERF when we mean transphobe. Those are two different things, and using feminism to further trans hatred is different from other ways of spreading trans hatred.
@kupo
Well that’s the question: can TERF’s and by extension SWERF’s; actually remotely meet even the basic, minimum modicum standard of being categorized and identified definitively as feminism, wither it be in practice or even in theory.
To be honest I have highly strong doubts they would NOT meet those criteria even in the slightest capacity as TERF’s and SWERF’s, for whatever little lip service they bother to pay to advocating for women’s rights and equality between sexes and genders (which as I have seen is pretty much scantly slim to pretty much none): they don’t seem to actually make any effort of actually bringing any sort of effort to reform society and harmful systemic, institutional problems women (and even men) face, don’t appear to be doing anything to actually try and help women and often seem to actively attack women and demonize them for trying to reclaim and define for themselves their own degrees of sexual liberation and autonomy and their general extents of presentation.
To be honest it more feels like they (TERF’s and SWERF’s) are both just Right Wing, Neo-reactionary, gate keeping normative puritans pushing the same Conservative Normative, Regressive agendas and ideology but stealing left wing sounding rhetoric and identity language and than contorting it to push said agendas and ideology.
Kind of in the same way that in the 60’s “Black Power” social justice advocacy groups for Black Americans was appropriated and distorted by White Racists to create “White Power” movements to push the same racist, white supremacist nonsense that Conservative Neo-Reactionaries have always used; but under heavily distorted and corrupted left wing sounding rhetoric since left wing rhetoric is generally flatly more popular.
As I see it, in essence: the only thing that appears to be even remotely and in a token fashion that is ‘feminist’ about them; is maybe a sliver of the feminist rhetoric and the majority of feminist identity language; but I don’t have the feeling that this itself is sufficient to make them ‘feminist’ in any way save maybe by a highly stretched technicality.
I kind of see it the same way how people claim that Nazi’s are some how socialists (and yes I’m aware this is probably Goodwin’s Law, but I believe it’s justifiably applicable in this instance), given that despite the “Socialist” in “National Socialist Workers Party”: hated, expressed ideological incompatibility with, and even killed socialist and was generally, and frankly, not very socialist. The “socialist” in it’s name was a red herring to appear more palpable than it otherwise would have been….
And I suspect with TERF’s and SWERF’s; it’s a similar thing…