Categories
daily stormer empathy deficit misogyny TERFs transmisogyny transphobia

Quiz: Who said it — A “Gender Critical” Redditor, or The Daily Stormer?

Not such strange bedfellows

By David Futrelle

One thing I’ve learned doing this blog lo these many years is that hate looks like hate, no matter what kind it is: Misogyny looks like racism; racism looks like antisemitism; antisemitism looks like homophobia. While these different forms of bigotry aren’t identical by any means, they do share many of the same tropes; a misogynist complaining we live in a “gynocracy” secretly controlled by women, for example, sounds a lot like an antisemite peddling some updated version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

I’ve also learned that these various varieties of hate sound remarkably similar even when they’re being promulgated by people who are ostensibly on the opposite ends of the political spectrum: the transphobia promoted by women who consider themselves both radical and feminist sounds a lot like the transphobia promoted by those on the far, far right.

I’d like to illustrate this last point with a little experiment in the form of a quiz.

Take a look at the quotes below. Some are from the Gender Critical subreddit, Reddit’s main forum for trans-exclusionary “radical feminists.” (All of them garnered multiple upvotes from other “Gender Critical” Redditors, with several getting well over 100 upvotes.) The rest of the quotes are from articles in the neo-Nazi internet tabloid The Daily Stormer, one of the most gleefully bigoted sites on the internet. See if you can tell which quotes come from which of these two sources.

The answers are below, or you can just click on the quotes, which are linked to their sources.

A) “The wise people in the UK government think that someone who is so mentally ill that he mutilated his body into looking like a parody of the opposite sex is fit to practice medicine.”

B) “A straight man is well within his right to beat up a trans woman who deceives him completely about their sex before having sex. That’s super fucked up.”

C) “I’ve said it before, but any man capable of fucking a wound cavity [neo-vagina] just isn’t right in the head.”

D) “Who could have predicted that cutting up a part of someone’s body to make a fake parody organ for them would very often cause the fake parody organ to not work properly?”

E) “I think trans may well be a mass social control experiment or, at least, this is one of the serious functions it serves.”

F) So out of curiosity, to get into the mind of a ‘trans girl’, I thought I’d browse some sub reddits and regretted it immediately. Most of them are toxic places full of egotistical, perverted men enforcing porn like stereo types 

G) [P]umping children with hormones is worse than any form of child molestation. There are a lot of people who get over being molested as children and move on with their lives, but no one is ever going to get over having their endocrine system completely destroyed with injections before they hit puberty.

H) Bruce Jenner’s surgeries have made him a misogynist caricature of a woman … The vanity fair image where he is dressed up in stereotypical feminine attire, with plastic surgery that has made him look like a mannequin. Good job liberal feminists, this is what you’ve spawned; a mutant man who pretends he’s a woman … .

I) “If a man cuts his dick off, he’s still just a man.”

J) “if you’re a woman athlete and you just got second place to a “fellow woman” with a bulge between “her” legs, do the bare minimum and show us that it actually bothers you.”

Answers: A) Daily Stormer; B) Gender Critical subreddit; C) GC; D) DS; E) GC; F) GC; G) DS; H) GC; I) DS; J) DS

How’d you do?

If it’s any consolation, I had to doublecheck a few of these to make sure I was correctly remembering where they originated.

Hate sounds like hate, no matter where it’s coming from.

Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.

We Hunted the Mammoth relies entirely on readers like you for its survival. If you appreciate our work, please send a few bucks our way! Thanks!

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

104 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Viscaria
Viscaria
1 year ago

Opgga

Honest question about number two; I can see how a trans person finds someone refusing to have sex with them because they’re trans shallow and transphobic, however isn’t having sex with such a person through deceit still rape?

What am I missing here?

You seem to be missing that B is about how the writer thinks it is okay to beat up trans women for being trans women, and it is not actually okay to beat up trans women for being trans women.

B does not discuss rape by deceit at all.

Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
1 year ago

Honest question about number two; I can see how a trans person finds someone refusing to have sex with them because they’re trans shallow and transphobic, however isn’t having sex with such a person through deceit still rape?

What am I missing here?

Are you fucking kidding me?

rv97
rv97
1 year ago

Unfortunately the way people seem to work is that they seem to prefer a concentrated source of power, wanting one person with the solutions. I think it’s how Trump got to power – he promised many extreme solutions and acted on many of them. I doubt people want to listen to the marginalized because they see them as a waste of time or money, or worse. “If they can’t make it on top (i.e. make money), they deserve their misfortunes” mentality, which has gripped the minds of those of my community.

I believe the left needs to be more radical if possible. Governments and companies I believe exist only to use people as tools, to make money or to make themselves look like saints.

Capitalism infuriates me and I wish it were gone, but if we get rid of it somehow, people will still see others as freaks and will want someone with power to get rid of them. What do we do with people who can only hate and fear letting go of it, fearing it personally threatens them or society, or it simply disgusts them? I feel like I could fall into such a mentality too. I probably shouldn’t even be here.

Also we should start considering transphobes terrorists.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
1 year ago

Honest question about number two; I can see how a trans person finds someone refusing to have sex with them because they’re trans shallow and transphobic, however isn’t having sex with such a person through deceit still rape?

What am I missing here?

Trans* women are women. Do people question cishet women about their gender and/or sexual orientation before sleeping with them? Is them not being entirely forthcoming with the aforementioned a form of rape?

No? Then it’s not fucking rape and the double standard here relies on the old trope that trans* women are actually men “deceiving” people into having sex with them.

Trans* women are people, not fucking leanan sidhe or succubi out for your blood.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Opgga
Beating someone up is assault. That includes beating someone up for being trans*, which depending on jurisdictions may be considered a hate crime as well (it should be considered a hate crime but isn’t in some places). One shouldn’t call themself a feminist if they support violence against women.

I’ve also heard other TERFs argue that trans* women who have sex with transphobic lesbians who don’t know at the time should be prosecuted for rape. In both cases, it seems TERFs massively overestimate how much people want to fuck people who hate them. I think I speak for all my trans* siblings in saying we don’t want to have sex with transphobes.

Sorta O/T: You may remember a TERF called Posie Parker from when she appeared on a white supremacist podcast. Well, here’s what she’s up to now (TW: discussion of domestic violence, victim blaming).

Viscaria
Viscaria
1 year ago

I’m a bit worried that my absolute disdain might not have carried through the medium of text, so to be clearer, Oppga, I find your attempt to normalize transmisogynistic violence by sexual partners or would-be sexual partners by pretending not to even notice that’s what the statement was about to be disgusting and obvious.

Lainy
Lainy
1 year ago

@rv97

For possibly the final time we do not have to convince these people that they are wrong or to be on our side in order to have value. There will always be those who will disagree. Do you think my rapist would ever admit that he did wrong or think he was wrong for how he attacked me? Do you think he would even consider it an attack? No he most certainly will not. But I don’t need that.

I don’t need his apology or pain to fight against rape culture and rapist. What i need to get at is the people who do care. The people who are vulnerable and the people who have been hurt. I need to be involved on my government and help those who are victims to get justice. We don’t need to turn misogynist into feminist. They are stuck on that path but that doesn’t mean we stop teaching feminism to those who haven’t learned it yet, or want to learn it, or need to learn it.

You want religion to disappear but it won’t. You want the concept of gender to disappear but it won’t because like it or not these are key parts and important to society. I believe God is with me everyday and try to live my life in a way Jesus would want me too that involves helping and loving others. There isn’t anything you could really say to convince me god isn’t with me and i wouldn’t want you to because it gives me great peace in life. It means something to a lot of people and that’s why it will stay. You really need to get off the hang up about convincing bad people to be good. They teach you in kindergarden you can’t control what other people think or do. You can only worry about yourself.

Lainy
Lainy
1 year ago

@opgga

That is very disrespectful what you just said to actual rape survivors. No it’s not rape by deception. They aren’t removing a condom without the others consent in the middle of the act. Really if I want to have sex with a woman even if I was assuming she was cis and we got nude and she has a penis instead of a vagina. She did not just sexual assault me anymore then if i got naked with someone and found out they had tattoos or scars or birth marks. And if I’m the type of person who doesn’t want to have sex with someone with a penis or any penis at all I can just say that I’ve changed my mind and I’m not actually feeling it anymore. The same you could be with a partner if you got naked with them and discovered unpleasant body oder. You are well with in your rights to just simply say you changed your mind and leave. Now of the person assaults or threatens you after you draw a boundary that is not the same thing. Now say this trans woman has a vagina instead of a penis and you have sex with them and find out they once had a penis. They did not just rape you because you don’t like penises. Because she did not have a penis she had a vagina and you signed up for sex with some with a vagina.

Katamount
1 year ago

RE: Contrapoints

I’ve…done my best to stay out of that whole thing. I’m not trans, let alone NB, but just observing all the sniping that was essentially going in one direction in the wake of just a couple of tweets about her personal experiences… it’s a little difficult to accept that the professed hurt on the part of the countless anime-avatared enby-identifying Twitter accounts may not be quite as good-faith as they want the rest of us to believe.

Cuz seriously, you don’t like a content creator, you just don’t watch them. But the sheer vehemence and the essentializing going on with Natalie was just so over-the-top that it struck me as less “we want this person to adjust their behaviour” and more “I want this person destroyed.” It didn’t help when those same Twitter dogpilers started going after Natalie’s friends, guilt-by-association style.

*sigh* I’m glad I just use Twitter for porn.

James Hutchings
1 year ago

I was sure that B would be the Daily Stormer, if only because I couldn’t see feminists being OK with angry, sexually frustrated or panicked men beating someone up.

Nope.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 year ago

@Oppga : more importantly than what other people have said : IT’S NOT SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

It’s similar to the fantasy of having mexican gangs rove through the frontier to pillage farms and who is used by gun owners to re-ensure that yes, they need guns. It’s similar to the “gangs of negroes” some say will enslave white girls into prostitution if you don’t defend them. It’s similar to the fantasm that there is a council of jews that oversee all porno production. It’s similar to the people that say that trans* go in toilets to harass and/or rape people. It’s physically possible, but it don’t happen.

It don’t happen because that’s fucking stupid and dangerous to do that. There’s very little if any gain in doing that, it’s dangerous, and it’s not something that most people are interested in even doing to begin with.

The role of thoses fantasy is to justify violence against a discriminated group. That’s why they never point to actual incidents or anything ; they just want to make a vaguely realistic point to justify themselves. The fact it’s stupid and don’t happen isn’t instantly visible, and if you don’t make an effort thinking about it you could be tricked into thinking that it’s a real problem.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 year ago

@James Hutchings

These are people who are happy to hide behind the police when other feminists try to shut down their hate speech, so it does kind of follow.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Cyborgette
In general, most of the alt-right is happy to hide behind the police and play the victim whenever anyone opposes them on any grounds. Ergo, TERFs do the same. I’m not sure if TERFs are part of the alt-right, but they certainly would fit right in over there.

Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
1 year ago

RE: Contrapoints

I’ve…done my best to stay out of that whole thing. I’m not trans, let alone NB, but just observing all the sniping that was essentially going in one direction in the wake of just a couple of tweets about her personal experiences… it’s a little difficult to accept that the professed hurt on the part of the countless anime-avatared enby-identifying Twitter accounts may not be quite as good-faith as they want the rest of us to believe.

I read that as: I’m not trans/enby, but I’m 100% going to judge that those who are complaining about this person are lying about being enby.

You’re right, you should stay out of it.

rv97
rv97
1 year ago

@Lainy

I’m starting to think I’m one of those bad people. I don’t think I deserve to have a good life because of some of my beliefs and fucked up urges that aren’t just related to gender and religion.

The only reason I believe I’m still here is because I feel like anywhere else, especially those that find joy in leftists’ misery, would be really shitty regarding gender, the main issue that’s particularly bugging me.

Allandrel
Allandrel
1 year ago

The TERF claims about trans* women committing “rape by fraud” are along the same lines as many other radfem arguments that I have seen. Some years ago there was an article where the writer set about to explain to women who believed they had consented to sex with a man that they had, in fact, been raped – if they checked off anything on a list, which included, I kid you not:

– He has ever been to a strip club and hasn’t told you.

This is also one of the main angles used by Professional Liar Gail Dines in her SWERF presentations, where she declares herself the arbiter of sex workers’ consent in porn. Female performers only THINK their consent was genuine, but Dines knows better. (She never even addresses male performers’ consent, because like other radfems she embraces and promotes the patriarchal “any man will have sex with any woman at the drop of a hat” myth.)

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

Out of curiosity, are there still any self-identified “radical feminists” that aren’t TERFs/SWERFs? These days it seems the only people who call themselves radfems are TERFs and the like, but IIRC the definition of the term doesn’t necessitate bigotry, so are there any that aren’t bigoted?

Lumipuna
Lumipuna
1 year ago

Out of curiosity, are there still any self-identified “radical feminists” that aren’t TERFs/SWERFs?

IIRC, some have identified themselves in this community in recent years.

Opgga
Opgga
1 year ago

@Ohlmann

Ok, that makes sense.

For some background; I’m nonbinary. I understand that straight cis people (male and female) have some very harmful ideas that queer folks want to “trap” them into sex- I get that shit for both my gender and my sexual orientation. And it’s not that I find violence ever ok either, I don’t think that I could ever really hurt anyone that’s hurt me like was suggested in that quote.

It’s just that I find it deceitful not to disclose major stuff before sex. It’s not just the gender stuff, a lot of people stop being interested in me when they find out I’m bisexual. Still think it’s necessary to disclose all that first.

Aaron
Aaron
1 year ago

@Naglfar:

I’ve noticed that as well, and it does seem to be a recent phenomenon. I could be totally off base… but here are few potential reasons, in my opinion:

1. Most simply, “radical feminism” is associated with the Second Wave, which was in aggregate fairly transphobic. The reason that the term is only recently becoming associated with transphobia may simply be because trans politics have become more central to mainstream feminism. Hence, people are noticing (and criticizing) the connection more, and the term is taking on more negative connotation.

2. While I don’t think radical feminism is intrinsically anti-trans, I would argue that it provides a pretty congenial ideological framework for people who are. Radical feminists tend to argue that the gender binary is completely artificial, and one can see how trans people could be seen as implicitly reaffirming the binary. (I don’t agree, to be clear, but I can understand the thinking.)

3. Radical feminists (again, largely due to associations with the Second Wave) are identified with a a viewpoint that more or less takes gendered oppression as a kind of ur-prejudice, a model and for all others and basically the fundamental injustice of human civilization. (In that, they’re like Marx.) Modern feminists, on the other hand, take a more “intersectional” approach, which is somewhat at odds with the “ultimate prejudice” idea. So the term has basically fallen into some disuse, except in TERFland.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

Out of curiosity, are there still any self-identified “radical feminists” that aren’t TERFs/SWERFs?

If I recall correctly, I think Dallillama identifies as a radical feminist? Not one of the shitty exclusionary ones, but the ones who think that sexism can’t be fixed with incremental changes to a horribly messed up system.

Or I could be misremembering, because I believe she also identifies as a libertarian but no not that kind of libertarian. The anarchocommunist kind (which, if I recall correctly, was the original meaning of the word libertarian before the capitalist chuds took it over).

Don’t take my word for it, though, unless she confirms my half-remembered notions.

Crip Dyke
1 year ago

Does nobody get that if you call someone a TERF and then say that they’re not a feminist then you’re literally contradicting yourself?

“This person is a TERFeminist” cannot coexist with “This person is not a feminist”.

All the other stuff is just to say that saying that if someone acts out oppression they can’t be a feminist is both a no-true-scotsman and also not helpful. It makes it harder to call out other oppressions in feminist spaces if providing feedback that some action or statement was oppressive always simultaneously implies that the person doesn’t belong in feminist space.

Emma Goldman was not mentioned for cissexism, btw, she was mentioned primarily for her ableism and her willingness to use violence. Steinem I mentioned primarily for racism and heterosexism. She supported the lavender purge and was known to try to keep issues of racism from being discussed in feminist spaces in the early 70s – though she did get better – because she thought that eliminating any discussion of racism would make the movement more unified and effective and welcoming.

The point is not that everyone we carelessly label as a TERF must be a feminist, but rather that just because someone is a feminist doesn’t prove that they aren’t acting out racism or cissexism, etc.

For those transphobia that aren’t actually feminist, just don’t call them TERFs (there are plenty of other good terms, like FART): they can’t be a TERF if they aren’t a feminist.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 year ago

@Crip Dyke : we don’t get that because it’s not contradicting oneself.

It’s similar to say that national-socialists aren’t, you know, socialists. They are jsut nazis. TERF was at first their descriptors, and even when some refute the label since it have become toxic, the ideas are the same.

And, sorry, but it’s not like there is a detectable amount of TERF who are feminist. TERF is a bunch of at best conservative people who are somewhat aware of what feminism is, but don’t actually follow up.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

Out of curiosity, are there still any self-identified “radical feminists” that aren’t TERFs/SWERFs?

I am a radical feminist but fuck if I’ll say that to anyone who doesn’t already know my values/politics because I don’t want to be associated with these fucks. It’s usually not worth the effort to add a bunch of disclaimers or definitions of the meaning of radical, and how often is the distinction important?

Re: whether TERFs are feminists, I agree with Crip Dyke that we can’t just no-true-scotsman away their feminism. Just like we have to fucking acknowledge the White Feminism problem, we have to acknowledge the anti-trans (ant anti-sex work) problem. And we also shouldn’t use TERF when we mean transphobe. Those are two different things, and using feminism to further trans hatred is different from other ways of spreading trans hatred.

TacticalProgressive
TacticalProgressive
1 year ago

@kupo

Well that’s the question: can TERF’s and by extension SWERF’s; actually remotely meet even the basic, minimum modicum standard of being categorized and identified definitively as feminism, wither it be in practice or even in theory.

To be honest I have highly strong doubts they would NOT meet those criteria even in the slightest capacity as TERF’s and SWERF’s, for whatever little lip service they bother to pay to advocating for women’s rights and equality between sexes and genders (which as I have seen is pretty much scantly slim to pretty much none): they don’t seem to actually make any effort of actually bringing any sort of effort to reform society and harmful systemic, institutional problems women (and even men) face, don’t appear to be doing anything to actually try and help women and often seem to actively attack women and demonize them for trying to reclaim and define for themselves their own degrees of sexual liberation and autonomy and their general extents of presentation.

To be honest it more feels like they (TERF’s and SWERF’s) are both just Right Wing, Neo-reactionary, gate keeping normative puritans pushing the same Conservative Normative, Regressive agendas and ideology but stealing left wing sounding rhetoric and identity language and than contorting it to push said agendas and ideology.

Kind of in the same way that in the 60’s “Black Power” social justice advocacy groups for Black Americans was appropriated and distorted by White Racists to create “White Power” movements to push the same racist, white supremacist nonsense that Conservative Neo-Reactionaries have always used; but under heavily distorted and corrupted left wing sounding rhetoric since left wing rhetoric is generally flatly more popular.

As I see it, in essence: the only thing that appears to be even remotely and in a token fashion that is ‘feminist’ about them; is maybe a sliver of the feminist rhetoric and the majority of feminist identity language; but I don’t have the feeling that this itself is sufficient to make them ‘feminist’ in any way save maybe by a highly stretched technicality.

I kind of see it the same way how people claim that Nazi’s are some how socialists (and yes I’m aware this is probably Goodwin’s Law, but I believe it’s justifiably applicable in this instance), given that despite the “Socialist” in “National Socialist Workers Party”: hated, expressed ideological incompatibility with, and even killed socialist and was generally, and frankly, not very socialist. The “socialist” in it’s name was a red herring to appear more palpable than it otherwise would have been….

And I suspect with TERF’s and SWERF’s; it’s a similar thing…

Lainy
Lainy
1 year ago

@rv97

No one really is a bad person. Just bad actions and bad choices but you get to choose to be better then that. You get to choose to do better. No one is born with this evilness inside them that makes them do bad things or hurt others. Those are choices we make. You can choose to do better.

Universal Kami
Universal Kami
1 year ago

I got 6/10.

I’m disappointed in myself.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

So there are still radical feminists who aren’t TERFs/SWERFs. That’s a relief. I still would be reluctant to label myself as such because of the association with TERFism, but it’s good to know that there are still people under it who aren’t TERFs.

Allandrel
Allandrel
1 year ago

@Aaron

Radical feminists (again, largely due to associations with the Second Wave) are identified with a a viewpoint that more or less takes gendered oppression as a kind of ur-prejudice, a model and for all others and basically the fundamental injustice of human civilization. (In that, they’re like Marx.) Modern feminists, on the other hand, take a more “intersectional” approach, which is somewhat at odds with the “ultimate prejudice” idea. So the term has basically fallen into some disuse, except in TERFland.

That’s been my observation about a lot of “radical” ideologies: They share the idea that there is One True Axis Of Oppression, and that all other forms of oppression either don’t exist or are just a symptom of the One True Oppression.

Therefore trying to fix anything other than the One True Oppression is either a waste of time at best, or makes you one of The Enemy at worst.

I can understand the appeal – it makes everything very simple. If you have declared that every problem is a nail, then there’s no need to look for anything but hammers. You never have to worry about pesky complications. And best of all, you can always be The Righteous One who knows the solution.

Allandrel
Allandrel
1 year ago

On the No True Scotsman thing…

I’m a Quaker. I’m non-Creedal, non-Trinitarian, and a panentheist.*

I have had people insist that I am “Not a Real Christian” for decades as a result.**

And so I am very hesitant to claim that others are No True Scotsmen for not believing or acting as I do. I will call them bad at being Scotsmen, I will call them bad people, but I will not claim they are not Scotsmen.

This is my choice, obviously, and I’m not going to insist that others follow it.

*The last one is not typical for Quakers, but I found it a natural extension of the Quaker concept of “that of God in all of us.”

**Christian jerks claim that I am lying about being Christian, because I don’t believe exactly what they do. Atheist jerks claim that I am lying about not believing exactly what their preferred stereotype of Christians do, because every religious person in the world is exactly like their parents.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

@TacticalProgressive

they don’t seem to actually make any effort of actually bringing any sort of effort to reform society and harmful systemic, institutional problems women (and even men) face, don’t appear to be doing anything to actually try and help women and often seem to actively attack women

From what available data are you drawing this conclusion from? Do you know a lot of TERFs IRL? (It’s entirely possible that you do, and if so, you have my sympathy.)

But if your primary exposure to TERFs is for example, people being shitty on Twitter, how do you know that their tweets are the extent of their activism?

There can be women who are deeply invested in reproductive rights and abortion access who are still super fucking transphobic. There can be women working at women’s shelters who are still super fucking transphobic. And so on and so forth.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that we’re being too mean to the TERFs for not acknowledging their contributions to feminism. I’m saying that assuming TERF=never feminist runs the risk of people assuming that if someone actively supports a feminist cause, then they can’t really be transphobic and people who are saying as much are just trying to smear their good name.

Katamount
1 year ago

@Jesalin

I read that as: I’m not trans/enby, but I’m 100% going to judge that those who are complaining about this person are lying about being enby.

You’re right, you should stay out of it.

That’s not what I wrote, but in the interest of keeping the peace, I shall take your advice and say no more on the subject.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Catalpa
I know that some TERFs have done real world feminist stuff (IIRC Meghan Murphy has done some stuff). That doesn’t excuse their transphobia, of course, but a few of them do seem to put some effort into some things that aren’t evil.
However, a caveat is that this seems to be the minority. The majority of vocal internet TERFs don’t seem to do any real world feminist advocacy (at least, none that I can find evidence of) and seem to mostly deal in hate. So I agree with your statements, but I think TacticalProgressive has somewhat of a point.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

@Katamount
It read the same to me as it did to Jes, just so you know. I’m not telling you this to dogpile or anything, but so that you can see that your tone came across as dismissive and judgmental of people who identify as enbies and/or have anime avatars on Twitter as well as of everyone who took issue with Natalie’s words and actions.

(Yes, I know about the anime avatars that argue on Twitter in bad faith and no, it didn’t make your comment any less harmful to have that context.)

Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
1 year ago

That’s not what I wrote, but in the interest of keeping the peace, I shall take your advice and say no more on the subject.

I never said that was what you wrote, I was giving my read on what you wrote, not quoting you.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 year ago

@Crip Dyke

Mmm fair. And I agree that differentiating TERFism from other forms of transphobia is important.

@Katamount

I’m in agreement with Jesalin and kupo, and FWIW I block anime avatars by default on Mastodon. Contra being trouble was a long time coming – Black trans folks were warning us about her views and attitudes way before white enbys were. Yeah a lot of people are shitty about it, but.

@Naglfar

I thought for a long time that TERF/SWERFs were very effective vs. stuff like human trafficking, but some recent experiences have made me a bit more skeptical. I don’t really know a lot about organizations like Polaris Project, and TBH I don’t know the extent to which they’re anti-trans and not only blanket anti-sex-work.

@All

As far as radical feminism, I don’t consider myself one but my thinking is definitely influenced by radical feminism – the idea of misogyny and sexism as ur-bigotries is a good one I think, even if the modern forms are historically recent.

And also, you can see the underlying truths in a lot of the things that some radfems take to broken conclusions.

e.g. The sweeping definition of rape? Well yeah, seems absurd, but there is a reality of consent being less solid between people of very different social privilege levels. White supremacy, patriarchy, capitalism etc. create a level of implicit coercion in a lot of cases, or at least implicit pressure. And speaking frankly and from personal experience, that implicit pressure does not have to rise to the level where a relationship is literally rape to cause some level of lasting trauma.

I see it as a bit like the thing where there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism. There are more and less ethical forms of relationships under patriarchy, but the power structures poison all of them on some level.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Cyborgette

Black trans folks were warning us about her views and attitudes way before white enbys were.

Every time this kind of thing breaks, it turns out that minorities (POC, LGBTQIPA+, etc) were talking and warning about it long before white cishets noticed. Listening to their voices is important.

TBH I don’t know the extent to which they’re anti-trans and not only blanket anti-sex-work.

I don’t specifically know that organization, but I can see how anti sex work stuff could spill over into transphobia. This is why it seems there’s a lot of overlap between TERFs and SWERFs. In some cases, people are more willing to publicly be anti sex work even if in private they’re also anti trans*.

TacticalProgressive
TacticalProgressive
1 year ago

@Catalpa

Admittedly most of the data I was able to glean was mostly second hand from other pro-feminist groups, from friends and acquaintances who are either themselves Trans or Non-Gender conforming and who are politically active feminists who have had unpleasant experience with TERF’s and SWERF’s, and for myself personally; having to deal with a special needs support staff who was shockingly, disgustingly and militantly homophobic and trans-bigoted.

For the cases of More active Feminist advocates and the friends and acquaintances I know in such categories: they have shared their experience and interactions with such groups, given that while I am pro-feminist; I am admittedly low activity as one so my personal experience is lower than average, but given the experiences of those who are much more active in feminist advocacy and women’s rights moments and LGBT activism: the overall impression they seem to convey, and it’s a consistent one: is that the average TERF and SWERF typically at best; doesn’t really, usually, work towards any sort of women’s rights or systemic reformation of problematic systemic issues in society or systems that operate within it, or actively engage in actions and movements that run directly counter and in antithesis of actual feminist thought, ideology, and even operational actions.

Though, and admittedly this is a bit of a tangent, (and also a warning due to a lot of experience of bigotry, religious fundamentalism and emotional distress in the following) in the case of the problematic support staff I had: while he wasn’t actually a TERF or SWERF, but a good deal of his notions and ideas regarding Trans people seemed to be near identical to the arguments of TERFS, so my initial impressions are telling me that TERF rhetoric was able to proliferate beyond TERF circles into general Conservative circles where this particular staff was able to ingest it and take it as verified fact despite it not even meeting the basic criteria as such.

This particular support staff was frankly the most bigoted fundamentalist I have even had misfortune to have interact with me in person at a face to face level. My old special needs support staff was a kind and worldly bisexual man who was happily married to his husband; and I owe a lot of my personal grown of self confidence and direction in my life to him over the course of over 7 years; sadly due to health issues he was unable to continue supporting me or any other individuals so I had to have a new support staff to assist me work out some of my more challenging day to day activities (mostly emotional and anxiety issues).

This support staff however, despite my attempt to give him a shot; was the worst support assistant I have ever had. Over the course of 8 months, he had revealed himself to be not merely just a Conservative Christian, but an admitted Creationist and Christian apologist, and a staunchly, militantly Homophobic and Transphobic bigot. So much so that he believed that the psudohistorical lie that was “The Pink Swastika” as actual factual truth (which needless to say; it’s ain’t). He also shown himself to be a White Chauvinist who bought into racist lies regarding crime statistics and Black Americans (I imagine everyone here would be familiar with such ad nauseam racist propaganda) and saying that I, as an Italian-Canadian Cis Gendered Male, should “stick to my own” (which was a major red flag of racism and other bigotries he held despite his weak claims otherwise), a Western Chauvinist, a Male Chauvinist, a Christian Chauvinist along side his fundamentalism and apologist position, Puritanically sex negative, deeply gender normative, and fiercely psudorational and psudoscientific (heck he even thought that “Science is a religion”; a stance that my kindly, Liberal Christian home-share providers find to be an absurd claim and they are rather pro-science in contrast) and who believed that only the religious have morals and that such religious morals and the only ones that matter (which he liked to assert and rub in my face since I was a “apathetic agnostic with atheist leanings”). And frankly most of the conversations I had with him felt mostly like arguments made in intentionally bad faith, or were so divorced from reality that they may as well have been. It got to the point where frankly I grew to loathing my time meeting up with him.

My experience with this particular support staff was beyond frustrating, exhausting and repulsive, although it did give me insight into the mindset, reasoning and POV of such folk that is shared between TERF’s and SWERF’s and general Conservative bigots and Neo-reactionaries. Despite all this 8 month period of emotional and mental toll on myself, I did make a report to the special needs assistance organization I’m supported by and whom I am also a Board of Directors “Supported Individual Liaison” to and explained the situation, and expressed concerns that this support worker, due to his bigotries; would not be a good fit for the program given it supports individuals who are within the demographics of individuals that he holds bigotry towards; which frankly I felt would come into conflict with the values and duties required by the organization and frankly the risk of negative impact on the individuals being supported by the program who his bigotries were directed towards and would adversely effect.

My family and I had no idea how such a person managed to find work in an otherwise Liberal and progressive and generally accepting organization helping a diverse demographic of special needs individuals; but the consensus of myself, my family and the organization members, is that this individual, with the values he held; was not in the right line of work given what the organization was supposed to fulfill and carry out for all demographics of special needs individuals.

My new support staff I not currently have; is a much better fit.

TacticalProgressive
TacticalProgressive
1 year ago

Also I’m sorry for an earlier SNAFU in my last inital post: I meant to say: “I strongly doubt that TERF’s and SWERF’s WOULD meet the definitions of feminism, wither in practice or in theory.

I hate it when I make flubs like that.

epitome of incomprehensibility

@Allandrel –

(She never even addresses male performers’ consent, because like other radfems she embraces and promotes the patriarchal “any man will have sex with any woman at the drop of a hat” myth.)

Yuck, that myth SO does not fit with the aims of working against sexual violence. :/

@Opgga –

It’s just that I find it deceitful not to disclose major stuff before sex. It’s not just the gender stuff, a lot of people stop being interested in me when they find out I’m bisexual. Still think it’s necessary to disclose all that first.

I think I understand where you’re coming from, but I also see why the wording put people on edge.

For example, I don’t know what, if anything, would be “deceitful” not to disclose. To me, it seems to be a conversation that should go both ways. E.g. if someone finds X thing an absolute no-no for a future sex partner, it seems up to them to ask. Of course, there might be things someone doesn’t think of that might be harmful, e.g. if the other person has a communicable STD, but I can’t see how being trans* would fall under that category.

About disclosing things, it also depends on the relationship the people want. For me, I told my boyfriend about my past instances of violence (hitting people in my family when I was younger and a classmate during an argument in my early 20s) before I kissed him, because I could imagine someone not wanting to kiss someone who’d done things like that.

But would this matter for casual sex (however that’s defined)? Again, I think it depends on the people and what level of emotional intimacy they want.

And about prejudice against bisexual folks – I just want to say it really sucks that this has been a problem for you and I hope it stops being one. Going back to the above, I also asked the said person if he was cool with me being bi (we’d been in the same creative writing group and it came up before, but I hadn’t asked him explicitly). Thankfully, that was fine. I’m lucky! He doesn’t seem to have weird stereotypes about bi women like some straight men do AND he isn’t grossed out. This seems like a low bar to clear, but…

Anyway, as for my past, he understood that it was something I regretted. And I’m sorry for going on for so long, but I hope you see something here that’s useful.

Crip Dyke
1 year ago

I think that what Aaron said is both accurate and a pretty good summary of why seeing people explicitly identifying as “radical feminists” has become less common lately than it was in the past.

I want to stress that Aaron was talking about perceptions rather than inherent truths though. When Aaron said that RFs “are idenitified” with an ur-oppression model of sexism, that’s very true. But of course, the definition of radical feminism doesn’t include the necessity of treating sexism as an ur-oppression.

I’ve identified as a radical feminist in the past, and I still think that the minimal definition of radical feminist describes me. But it’s a bit like saying that one is an orange fruit while being a mango. Yes, you’re a fruit, and yes, you’re orange (and yes, oddly able to speak english), so of course you’re an orange fruit. But because there’s an orange fruit whose name is actually “orange” it’s going to be really hard to communicate what you are by calling yourself an “orange fruit” when you’re a mango, because people are just naturally going to think of a medium-size citrus fruit first, and then you’re going to have to explain – “Yes, but I’m not round, and my skin is smooth, and my internal structure is not lobed, and….”

Sure, I’m a radical feminist – I was one decades ago and still am one today. But saying I’m a radical feminist out loud frequently makes it more difficult to communicate who I am and what I believe. So why bother saying it? There are really few contexts in which announcing that I’m a radical feminist is productive even though the statement is true.

=========
On a separate topic, I can understand the transition described by Ohlmann:

It’s similar to say that national-socialists aren’t, you know, socialists. They are jsut nazis. TERF was at first their descriptors, and even when some refute the label since it have become toxic, the ideas are the same.

But understanding how it happened is different from endorsing it. My problem with this is that I and others have argued that twitter shouldn’t ban use of the term “TERF” in reference to specific individuals since it’s just a neutral, accurate description. But if we accept that TERF does not accurately describe those individuals and instead is a toxic label, then we’ve bought into the very argument that TERFs are using to prevent us from being allowed to use the term on the internet: that it’s just a slur (“toxic label”).

For people that aren’t actually feminist, I’d prefer something like FART (Feminism-Appropriating, Reactionary Transphobe). For people that are actually feminist, TERF remains a good and valid description.

Of course, I do have another concern as well: when we say that X isn’t feminist therefore people who do X aren’t feminists, we make a false promise that feminist spaces will be free of X.

Feminists have been shitting on trans* people for 50 years, and they’re going to go on shitting on trans* people for a long time to come. Yes, it’s less common now, yes, trans* positive space does exist now. But I’ve been in enough trans*-shitty feminist spaces over the years that when someone says that cissexism isn’t feminist I laugh the laugh of great despair.

Cissexism has been feminist since the beginning of feminism. Just because we’ve been getting better lately doesn’t mean that’s not true. I feel the history of anti-trans* feminism is being whitewashed by the casual assumption that doing cissexism must mean someone isn’t feminist.

And, of course as always, none of this is my wisdom. I get it from feminists of color who point out similar arguments against whitewashing feminism’s racism away, or giving the appearance of promising anti-racist space at feminist gatherings only for WoC to show up and get turned off to feminism because that promise was a lie.

I don’t want trans* people to get turned off to feminism because of a false promise. Feminism is what it is, and it’s had a lot of fuck ups. It’s had a lot of racism and ableism and classism and heterosexism along the way, and yes, cissexism too. I’d prefer people embracing feminism with open eyes.

Viscaria
Viscaria
1 year ago

@Oppga

I made the wrong assumption about your intentions, and I apologize for that.

We disagree about the what one should feel obligated to disclose before having sex with someone. In a vacuum, maybe we could have discussed that disagreement calmly.

However, in this case you brought it up specifically in relation to statement B, a statement in favour of straight cis men who feel a threat to their sexuality handling the resulting fear by violently attacking trans women. You linked the two concepts; therefore, you created the implication (though evidently not deliberately) that disclosure or nondisclosure of trans status is relevant to whether or not it’s okay for men to beat up women for the crime of being trans and attractive to them. I can’t have that conversation calmly because it’s fucking evil.

I would maybe suggest that you question what relevance your beliefs about disclosure to would-be sexual partners had to statement B.

Paireon
Paireon
1 year ago

Welp, I learned a whole lot about feminism reading this comments thread. To badly translate a Québécois expression, I’m gonna go to sleep less stupid tonight, which coming from me is definitely a great compliment.

Thanks, all you wonderful people, and have a nice day!

Oppga
Oppga
1 year ago

@Viscaria

I made the wrong assumption about your intentions, and I apologize for that.

No need to apologize, I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear about my meaning, and that I upset you. Please accept my sincere regret! 🙁

FWIW, after some thought I think we’re interpreting B differently. I clicked through to the original thread (warnings about doing that‐ the OP is somehow even more gross and triggering), and the full text of B is;

A straight man is well within his right to beat up a trans woman who deceives him completely about their sex before having sex. That’s super fucked up. It’s no different than raping a woman by pretending to be her boyfriend and crawling into bed with her when she thinks it’s someone else.

It’s still a gross statement filled with A LOT of wrong things, but given the context of the thread, I do think it’s referring to finding out the partner is trans after having sex, not before. Which is what I think what we may be reading differently?

@epitome

To me, it seems to be a conversation that should go both ways. E.g. if someone finds X thing an absolute no-no for a future sex partner, it seems up to them to ask.

Yes, you are 100% right!

However, I think some people would be offended at being asked if they were trans, (or gay, or whatever), so I think that some people hesitate to ask their partner about certain topics. Not that they shouldn’t ask it somehow if it is a dealbreaker for them! But sometimes it’s just easier for everyone if a person brings up a topic about themselves themself, if you know what I mean. 🙂

I’m doing this for myself as much as the other person anyway. I don’t want to sleep with a bigot as much as I never want someone to actually regret sleeping with me, casual one night stand or not.

Maybe “rape” is a strong word, and it does get murky because people don’t always know their gender or sexual orientation either. But this “rape by deceit” thing has been prosecuted in some countries for as little as one partner lying about their career.

>Anyway, as for my past, he understood that it was something I regretted. And I’m sorry for going on for so long, but I hope you see something here that’s useful.

Yes that was a interesting and wonderful post to read, thank you for sharing! 😊

Grace Annam
Grace Annam
1 year ago

Oppga:

However, I think some people would be offended at being asked if they were trans, (or gay, or whatever), so I think that some people hesitate to ask their partner about certain topics. Not that they shouldn’t ask it somehow if it is a dealbreaker for them! But sometimes it’s just easier for everyone if a person brings up a topic about themselves themself, if you know what I mean. [1f642.svg]

In part of my professional life, I do not work with clients who fit certain criteria. For instance, I don’t work with someone who is a supervisor or a subordinate of mine at work, or who is or has been involved in a legal process with one of my current or former employers. However, in this context I have no right to ask people to disclose their private legal dealings to me.

So, what I do on my intake form is name the categories of people I don’t work with, and require a signature under a statement which says that the person does not fall into any of those categories. They can decide not to work with me for any reason, and they can decline without saying why.

In the context of the current discussion, it would be easy enough for people to own their preferences and ask the prospective partner if any of those apply. The partner could then say, “I don’t think we’re a good match, thanks” without having to disclose why.

The preference could be related to what trips your trigger (for instance, some people can’t get excited about hairless genitals), or it could be related to a conflict of interest (you might not want to inadvertently get involved with someone who is in an exclusive relationship), or it could be related to political principle (I’m not interested in any way in someone sufficiently bigoted, short-sighted or confused that they voted for Trump), or it could be straight-up bigotry (some people have issues with the thought of trans people, even if this particular trans person could body-double for someone who would otherwise rev their motor).

A further advantage to this system: if bigotry is the reason behind the preference, the bigot has to display their bigotry, and if such bigotry is a hard pass for the other person, they get to pass.

Grace

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

I do think it’s referring to finding out the partner is trans after having sex, not before

By your reckoning, how much is one expected to disclose about their life before having sex, in order to not be guilty of “rape by deceit”?

If I used to live in a different country, does that need to be put on the table before my partner can give informed consent? What if I changed careers? If I dye my hair? Do I need to tell people my full legal name beforehand; would only providing a nickname be considered “deceit”?

The information I would expect to be required to be provided for informed consent to be that which is directly relevant to the sex acts being performed. So impersonation of another known person, lack of agreed-upon protection, unagreed upon additional acts, and exposing of one’s partner to unknown STIs would all fall under violation of informed consent. The genitals being involved not having always been the same shape in the past? That isn’t directly applicable to the acts happening at the present.

vaiyt
vaiyt
1 year ago

Mt explanation to why hatemongers seem to blur into each other is thus: reactionaries, no matter their political stripe, are more interested in reactionary politics than whatever ideology they use to justify them. This is evidenced by the fact that, time and again, they will readily team up with each other against their other political equals. It was true in 1930s Germany, when reactionary socialists joined the Nazis to fight the other leftists, and it’s true now when TERFs and fundies shake hands to attack trans people.

Oppga
Oppga
1 year ago

By your reckoning, how much is one expected to disclose about their life before having sex, in order to not be guilty of “rape by deceit”?

Anything that has a liklihood of effecting the decision making of the person involved, whether ot not I would care about the same thing, whether or not I remotely agree with caring about that thing, or whether or not I deem such person an ass for caring.

If, I don’t know, dying your hair , or singing Kpop, or whatever is commonly a big enough deal in your neck of the woods that it had a realistic potential to sway someone’s decision to sleep with you, then yes, it should be disclosed.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 year ago

@Oppga

So, how many women would you say are guilty of this for e.g. failing to announce their clinical depression to a cute guy before taking him to bed? Even if it’s been managed successfully for years?

What about women with eating disorders? An STD that was successfully treated years ago and is long gone? Surgery to correct a hare lip? Silicone boob implants? PCOS and other intersex conditions? Straight men are as picky as they are horny, if you hadn’t noticed.

You’ve barely even started here and you’re already arguing yourself into a corner.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

@Oppga

If a bi woman in an area like, say, Saudi Arabia, doesn’t announce to her husband that she is bi and risk being murdered for it, is she considered to be raping her husband, then?