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Jordan Peterson fans explain catcalling to you

Shy, unconfident men learning how to court women

By David Futrelle

Women complain a lot about catcalling, but do they really understand how important it is for young men to be able to hoot, whistle, and make gross smoochy sounds with their lips whenever an attractive woman crosses their path?

Yes, I’ve been reading the Jordan Peterson fan subreddit again, and this is one of the important really stupid questions raised in a recent discussion subject of catcalling — which, in the judgement of some of the lobsterboys, is a critical part of the “the boyhood transition to manhood” that evil feminists are trying to eliminate just because they don’t like dudes sexually harassing them all day long.

According to one JBP fan called sand313man, women

don’t even realise that all that cat calling, was just shy non confident men learning how to approach females and just failing miserably, but learning all the same.

Yes, “shy” is definitely the first word I think of when I think of men yelling “dat ass!” or “I want to lick you” at a passing woman.

Now many men are scared and Unconfident of being labelled some sort of predator.

COUNTERPOINT: If your favorite way to, er, court women is by hurling sexual remarks at them on the street, maybe you should worry about being labeled a predator.

Women now wonder why so of them are single and having a mid life crises of career without family or meaningful relationships.

Clearly it’s because they weren’t catcalled enough when they were younger.

Every man they meet is pussified by their own doing.. as they desperately look for real men, which often times they have killed.

Uh, so women out there are regularly murdering good men? I’d like to see the statistics on this.

They destroyed the boyhood transition to manhood. People need to fail to learn to be confident.

A catcall is simply a miserable attempt at approaching women. But back in the day, we were allowed to miserably fail, in order to learn.

In a followup comment, sand313man adds that:

The majority of people aren’t born as a natural Casanova. You must fail again and again to get anything right.

It’s a slow progression. Maybe starts with what some might call a ‘cat call’… to cheesy pick up lines.. to saying stupid things.. to saying even reasonable things but still not being confident.

A man always had to face the consequence of rejection over and over, and one day he actually gets good at even getting with hot beautiful girls.. one day he might even find the perfect one to marry that he clicks with.

Because most women would be thrilled to marry a man who spent years yelling sexual innuendo at other women on the street before he realized that he’d do better saying “you seem really cool, do you want to get coffee sometime?”

But how are people of today supposed to even attempt failing when they are automatically labeled a predator because they might lack game …

Woman have the right to say no. But this notion of cancelling and labelling someone predatory is a sickness. I mean really grow up, and be happy that you were even worth someone’s attention. Sometimes I think it’s the ugliest wenches who first complained about cat calling for being ignored.

Someone called RossFrom Britain wholeheartedly agrees:

its definitely the ugly ones who complain the most, probably because catcalling is a rating system which places them lower than hot women

i do sympathise with women on this though, because being approached all the time and by guys who quite often turn out to be creepers and stalkers, or people who flip out if they are rejected, must be pretty shitty. not to mention scary if the guy is physically intimidating

but as you say – how will men learn to court women?? with population density as it is, all men are now competing with like X million other men… how on earth will the inexperienced/less attractive men ever get a chance to learn?

So suck it up ladies, men need to be able to sexually harass you in order to learn how not to sexually harass you!

The idea that catcalling, however stupid and ineffective it is as a means of courtship, is simply the best idea that some dumb men have come up with to meet women may have provided the basis for an old Jerry Seinfeld routine, but it’s not actually, you know, true.

Catcalling isn’t about courtship; it’s about aggrieved entitlement — and asserting power over women. According to one of the authors of a recent study on catcalling in the Middle East and North Africa, street harassers

have high aspirations for themselves and aren’t able to meet them … So they [harass women] to put them in their place. They feel like the world owes them.

Others who have studied the subject note that harassment is, well, fun — at least for the harassers, if not their victims. Catcallers aren’t looking to learn anything; they do what they do because it makes them happy, and allows them to feel better about their lives.

The idea that the catcallers themselves are somehow the victims here, the hapless targets of mean old feminists trying to derail their transition to adulthood, is not only absurd but perverse.

So par for the course on the Jordan Peterson subreddit, I guess.

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TB Tabby
TB Tabby
8 months ago

You need to learn how to approach women? Then I can save you a step. Just follow these simple rules:

1. Don’t catcall.
2. When in doubt, refer back to Rule 1.

There. Now you can skip the catcall phase and move on to a better approach.

Mrs. Obed Marsh
Mrs. Obed Marsh
8 months ago

I remember being a teenager and wondering how catcallers expected women to respond. Did they really expect women to turn around and start seriously flirting with them? I can’t imagine any woman doing that in real life. So the idea that men catcall to put women in their place makes perfect sense to me.

Leum
Leum
8 months ago

@Mrs. Obed Marsh:

I’ve read anecdotes from women who did respond to catcalling by flirting back to see what would happen and the men were universally baffled and put off by it. They aren’t expecting a positive response and don’t actually want one.

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

O/T, but I have a question that someone here might be able to answer:

Is there a non-gendered term that is equivalent to “sir” or “ma’am” (that is, an honorific)?

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
8 months ago

@Naglfar

I’ve been telling folks to go with “comrade” when it’s earned.

Joke aside though, I am also curious about this, speaking as an enby person living in a country where language is very binary.

Mrs Morley
Mrs Morley
8 months ago

@Naglfar:
“Gentles” or “gentles all” might work.

Or if you are feeling cute “Gentle folk”

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I remember being a teenager and wondering how catcallers expected women to respond. Did they really expect women to turn around and start seriously flirting with them?

I asked a catcaller this once and he just denied he was hitting on me and my friends. He didn’t explain what he was actually trying to do, but I think it embarrassed him because he scuttled off. It must not feel too good for a grown man to be scolded by a teenage girl.

Prith kDar
Prith kDar
8 months ago

Felton wrote:

deep down they’re tender budding flowers of boyhood just learning the mystery that is woman

You win the internets today! Lol indeed!

Prith kDar
Prith kDar
8 months ago

^ Of course I meant Fenton. I had intended to go back to check the spelling, but since it was on the previous page, I forgot. :/

Mrs Morley wrote:

“Gentles” or “gentles all” might work.

I think too many people will hear that as “Gentiles.”

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
8 months ago
Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

Thank you for the suggestions. I think I’ll go with “gentles” and make sure to enunciate clearly.

FlyByKiwi
FlyByKiwi
8 months ago

@Daniel – that had always been my take on this type of behaviour – chest beating and hooting among young apes.

I recall at high school one lunchtime I was walking across the quad and heard just such a whopping and hollering from an upstairs window. It was boys from my class leaning out the windows and giving girls who walked past a score out of ten (they’d pre-prepared signs with 1 – 10 on them). Being terrible at ‘judging a room’ I had missed the fact that the usually busy quad was empty, and that girls were clustered, angry and crying, under the walkways out of sight.

The boys got in trouble. But I didn’t really feel it was for disrespecting girls? This was about 1990.

I felt humiliated cos I got a low score and everyone saw it. That was what bothered me at the time. I was embarrassed and felt worthless. Because I was already inculcated by that time to KNOW that my worth was judged only by my appearance.

I have never felt more worthless than I have after that (and other) incidents.

@kupo EXACTLY on the subject of “ugly” women don’t get assaulted. I know I PERSONALLY don’t judge on appearance whether an assault happened, but I’m also very very aware of what people at large think, as I work in the justice system, (nowhere near criminal law thank goodness, I couldn’t cope with dealing with these cases) but I know how it goes in practice. I am sick of telling idiots sexual assault is usually about power and dominance not sex and getting blank stares. And I think that’s a fairly tame thing to say. And when the POTUS can just outright say someone’s too ugly to assault? It’s not changing soon. It makes the people prepared to report sexual assault and proceed all the way to a court hearing, knowing how they’ll be judged and treated, the BRAVEST people ever. And if people didn’t expose themselves like this we wouldn’t even have made the small gains we have. And it shouldn’t be necessary. It’s so wrong.

Whoops long post! I edited I promise!

Crip Dyke
8 months ago

1. Don’t catcall.
2. When in doubt, refer back to Rule 1.

3. When you’re convinced that one of the earlier two rules is wrong or bad, refer back to Rule 1.

Snowberry
Snowberry
8 months ago

I’ve heard “enbies and gentlefolk”, or at least that’s what I think the announcer said, though that was at an entertainment event which specifically messed around with gender.

Universal Kami
Universal Kami
8 months ago

@kupo

Umm, excuse me?

I AM considered an “ugly woman”.

I was talking from my OWN experiences and those of people I know.

I KNOW people considered “ugly” aren’t actually ugly.

That’s why it was in quotation marks.

I KNOW they have relationships and are stereotyped.

rvr97
rvr97
8 months ago

@Eddie

I think they wanted to look “impartial” by having the algorithm recommend you that book, same shit as what NaziCapitalistTube are pulling off. Either way they’re still gonna make money from it.

Aaron
Aaron
8 months ago

I think this is referring to a larger issue of men finding their voice and being allowed to do it without being labeled a predator when they fail. It’s pretty simple fact demonstrated by this generation having the least sex/marriage/kids of previous ones. Of course if you just follow the narrative of “there are bad men who do it therefore all men who try to do it are evil” it won’t make sense to you. Nuance doesnt apply to outraged idiots.

Viscaria
Viscaria
8 months ago

Oh, Aaron. So many things to say to all of that, but I’m going to go with this: Which generation is “this” generation, exactly?

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Viscaria
I’m guessing he’s referring to millennials, because that’s the generation older generations usually are complaining about. It seems the main reason millennials aren’t having as many marriages has mostly to do with the economy, not with catcalling.

kupo
kupo
8 months ago

@Universal Kami
Sounds like we’re in agreement, then? Not sure why you’re angry at me for stating something you claim to believe as well?

kupo
kupo
8 months ago

@Universal Kami
Sorry for the double-post, it won’t give me an edit. Just to clarify I was addressing the concept that if ugly women get catcalled that means it’s not about courtship. It sounded like you were serious about that part, so I responded to it.

Lainy
Lainy
8 months ago

Aaron

I make 20 dollars an hour and work part time. My husband has a marines salary and is thousands of miles away from me. If your talking about generation z where the oldest people in it are 21 years old, we are broke, we are spread thin, a lot of us are actual children and millennials are only doing slightly better then generation z. That is why people aren’t getting married and having children. Most of us can’t even feed, house and clothed ourselves all at once.

I also want to point out I make a lot more then other 21 year olds do, that’s why I can have my tiny one bedroom apartment. And the only reason I make that much is the 15 years of experience I have with ballet dancing. That alone came from a well off family that had the privilege to get me the education in that dancing to be able to be a teacher for it. That is not something that was accessible to many people. That is my privilege I had greatly checked, why don’t you do yours now mr. Manly catcalling man.

Universal Kami
Universal Kami
8 months ago

@kupo

I meant catcalling at all isn’t about courtship.

It’s about a lot of things, but attracting someone isn’t one if them.

I don’t know anyone who was catcalled that actually dated the person who did it.

I tried to make it sound like that so-called “ugly” women get catcalled a lot more than believed, but nobody believes us because we’re considered “ugly” and not worthy of catcalling.

Which makes absolutely no sense, but manosphereans and unfortunately a lot of cis men I know don’t seem to understand the problem.

I don’t know, I’m probably not making any more sense.

I apologise for being hostile earlier.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
8 months ago

@Aaron, if you haven’t noticed by now that cat-calling has absolutely nothing to do with attracting someone – not even in the most incompetent fashion – there is no hope for your observational or analytical skills. Cat-calling is an act of aggression, and very often a performative display of socially acceptable (to them) aggression which men put on for the ‘benefit’ of other men.

occasional reader
occasional reader
8 months ago

So, they think catcalling is also a dogwhistle for feminists ?
Trying to get the attention of women on a hand, calling them “attention whore” on the other. They should have a sticker “We brake for noparadox” on their back.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
8 months ago

@ Aaron – you said

I think this is referring to a larger issue of men finding their voice and being allowed to do it without being labeled a predator when they fail.

When this is about catcalling.

OP said that

[women] don’t even realise that all that cat calling, was just shy non confident men learning how to approach females and just failing miserably, but learning all the same.

So OP states that this is about all cat calling. Not sure where you’re getting your reach there, but good try on moving the goal posts!

It’s pretty simple fact demonstrated by this generation having the least sex/marriage/kids of previous ones.

HOLY SHIT, you’ve been able to weed out all the other factors, and determine that this is solely down to men being told that cat calling is creepy AF, and makes you a creep?????

I mean, I thought it had to do with the fact that buying a house is permanently out of reach, the rise of the gig economy (low pay, no benefits), what people are paid hasn’t kept up with what they produce, uncertainty with the climate (do we want to bring more humans into a world that is a hurricane on fire?), etc etc etc etc.

But you’ve managed to cancel out all of those other, probably more pertinent, factors, to narrow it down to the One True Cause?

Friend, you must be a freaking genius.

Of course if you just follow the narrative of “there are bad men who do it therefore all men who try to do it are evil” it won’t make sense to you.

Examples of good men catcalling in a way that is positive, or GTFO. YOU brought this unbelievable ‘fact’ up, YOU need to prove it.

Nuance doesnt apply to outraged idiots.

Mind the comments policy.

I mean, you’re a troll who’s probably not got the guts to reply to anyone pointing out the obvious failures in your post, but still. Mind it.

And I wonder who’s missed out on nuanced explanations here, us or you?

Final Grade: F for this sounding like a long fart. :/ Do the reading, talk to some primary sources, and resubmit.

Naglfar
Naglfar
8 months ago

@Rhuu

talk to some primary sources

It shouldn’t be that hard for him to do; literally any woman could serve as a primary source here. Though really, I feel sorry for any woman that has to put up with these kinds of men, so maybe that’s not the best idea.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
8 months ago

@Naglfar – yeah, that’s definitely fair. I don’t know how to have people like this see ‘women’ as ‘human’ without them interacting with women, but do the women they interact with deserve to deal with someone who doesn’t think they are human???

It’s a conundrum.

Catalpa
Catalpa
8 months ago

It’s pretty simple fact demonstrated by this generation having the least sex/marriage/kids of previous ones.

Honestly, even if this was the case and no economic or environmental factors were contributing to this, if having previous levels of sex/marriage/kids is entirely dependent on men being able to harass women and ignore their consent, then society should be having less sex/marriage/kids.

kupo
kupo
8 months ago

@Universal Kami
I apologize for being a bit snarky and also for not addressing that in my earlier replies to you.

I agree 1000% it has nothing to do with courtship.

Paireon
Paireon
8 months ago

Wow. Now I guess I know why I’m a 40-year-old virgin then, I never catcalled any girl or woman in my entire life. Guess I’ll start whooping at females and commenting loudly about their secondary and tertiary sexual characteristics, even though they tend to largely be completely hidden from view by the bulky winterwear that’s customary in Canada. I am certain that I will be on my way to marriage by the time spring comes, and not wind up being looked at in disgust and fear by my victi…um, potential conquests/wives.

Also, something something lobsters and Bible, I guess.

masque d'etoiles
masque d'etoiles
8 months ago

@weirwoodtreehugger:

It must not feel too good for a grown man to be scolded by a teenage girl.

You mean like a 73-year-old leader of the free world being so put out by a 16-year-old girl challenging his absolute authoritay, not to mention his great and unmatched wisdom, that he takes to Twitter to troll her, to the approval of millions of other grown-ass men? (and women?)

Catcalling, whether in the street or at school or online, is simply a variant of bullying. It’s about intimidation, humiliation, and othering of the target – the antithesis of socialization, learning, or (deity forbid) courtship. Those who seek to justify or excuse it simply want to be permitted to willfully suck at human interaction and still get the relational rewards decent people enjoy on account of being considerate of others.

No one is obliged to cater to the whims of spoilt, emotively stunted social infants. I therefore propose a remedial virtual preschool for maladapted little boys, where they can relearn whatever muddled social lessons they insufficiently absorbed in their first go-round at childhood. (Surely Siri or Alexa can be modified to perform this service.) Once they graduate to remedial virtual kindergarten, having learned the fundamentals of sharing and empathy, maybe they can be permitted introductory interactions with real live human ladyfolks.

Supervision might be advisable for their initial forays.

Sand313man
Sand313man
7 months ago

Wow, a run of the mill comment I spent half a minute typing on a cell phone on reddit, got published by a wannabe journalist.

I’m highly impressed that he managed to make an entire feature piece based on a single reddit comment done on the fly.

I could have checked my grammar a bit more, but honestly I was speaking on the fly on reddit. This comment was left the same way. You would have thought however that an aspiring journalist would have proper sentence structure, grammar and maybe an ounce of original intellectual thought.

The obvious mistake you all make is automatically assuming every cat caller is a stalker or nefarious, rather than shy, non-confident or socially awkward. Men don’t cat call.. boys do.

But the way you’ve combined more sinister behaviours as a consequence of cat calling, is everything wrong with your postmodern thought processes. Ever thought, that just because a malevolent stalker with insidious behaviour.. could actually be a predator? And some boy too young, and inexperienced to have learnt a proper way of approaching woman might neither be insidious or mean any ill harm? Did you ever think that by painting your brush further from where it is intended causes you to completely disregard motive? Intent? Purpose? Or even a boy just learning to be a man?

Come at me. Express your dissatisfaction. Good faith debate.
https://www.reddit.com/user/sand313man/