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entitled babies evil sex-rejecting ladies men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny trump

Malebag: A MGTOW’s origin story

Man Crying His Own Way

By David Futrelle

I sometimes get accused of being unfair to Men Going Their Own Way, accusing them of hating women (which they do) without taking into account the incredible hatred directed their way by women. MGTOWs aren’t born; they’re made, I’m told, and it’s women who made them the way they are today.

So today I will present the origin story of one particular MGTOW — a fellow calling himself Wubba Gubba who tried to post a comment on We Hunted the Mammoth the other day, in which he offered an explanation of the terrible things women had done that had caused him to go MGTOW in the first place. I didn’t let his comment through moderation, but I’d like to share it with you today.

“What makes a MGTOW?” he began, before offering up a numbered list.

1) 1984, she-devil asks, what do you do, I say, engineer, she says, engineers are dull boring conservative and therefore completely undesirable.

So … 36 years ago a woman told him that engineers were boring and undesirable. And he’s still holding a grudge over that.

2) Trump says one particular woman is a pig, lunatic misandrists, by the millions, claim that Trump calls all women pigs.

That’s … not how that happened. There’s a truckload of evidence that Trump is a misogynist; his calling Rosie O’Donnell a pig is only one small data point.

Yes I can continue.
All women angels?
On what planet?

The MGTOW men were not born that way, the lunatic skanks they met all too often in their lives made them that way.

He then returns to his numbered list, adding one last assertion:

3) Trump says he will build a wall, with doors in it, to control immigration, lunatic women scream louder than anyone that he is trying to stop immigration.

No one says that Trump is trying to stop immigration altogether, because he isn’t; he’s trying to stop or at least drastically reduce immigration by Latinos — to the estent that he’s sending refugees back to certain death and kidnapping the children of border crossers. Women aren’t literally screaming about this, though a scream would hardly be an unreasonable response to his policies.

Conclusion, more than one flew over the cookies nest.

The “cookies” nest, you say?

Anyway, there’s your explanation for this guy’s turn to MGTOW: one solitary woman told him he was boring more than three and a half decades ago. And woman overall tend to dislike Trump.

I guess that justifies a lifetime of calling women “lunatic skanks.”

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sunnysombrera
sunnysombrera
9 months ago

more than one flew over the cookies nest.

It was probably autocorrect but I’d like to think he mangles all known figures-of-speech, Biff Tannen style.

As for the rest of his comment, either there’s something he’s not telling us or he’s one of the most sensitive, fragile souls to ever tread the earth.

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

I think it’s funny how this alternates between an incoherent numbered list and what resembles poetry in the middle.

Anyway, I love the Malebag posts where David breaks down comments that didn’t get through. I just enjoy reading David mock them even more than much of the other content.

jsrtheta
jsrtheta
9 months ago

You’re wrong about one thing: He most certainly is trying to stop immigration by Latinos, but he’s also trying to stop immigration altogether.

Seriously, this administration does not want anyone moving here from other countries. Just look at the record.

Snowberry
Snowberry
9 months ago

Well, if you take Trump at his word (which you shouldn’t, because his word keeps changing) he’s fine with immigrants from Sweden.

Castrating Harpy
Castrating Harpy
9 months ago

jsrtheta: I think 45 has been pretty clear that he approves of (and encourages!) immigration from majority white countries. That was my takeaway from the whole “shithole countries” fiasco, anyway.

Ariaflame
Ariaflame
9 months ago

Though there must be much fewer people wanting to move from Sweden to the USA. I certainly can’t think why they would.

epronovost
epronovost
9 months ago

Ironically, his defense of Trump behaviors and policies gives reason to the prejudices of the 1984 woman who told him that he was a boring conservative thus undesirable. The man can’t even make a good argument for himself. He could have went a more “reasonnable” way by talking about difficult breakups or divorce, being cheated on, being bullied by girls while he was younger or even by women coworkers, etc. These are the sort of things that can explain, if not justify, a certain level of hatred and resentment toward women and girls. Are MGTWO made? Of course they are, I don’t think anybody is born hateful, but this hatred had to be nurtured and not just by encountered with the shitty women of the world.

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

Trump would love immigration from majority white countries. Unless those immigrants are left-leaning (which many might be). Then he’d hate them…hmm, I wonder why they’re not eager to come here.

@epronovost

I don’t think anybody is born hateful, but this hatred had to be nurtured and not just by encountered with the shitty women of the world.

I think hatred comes from a culture which is chock-full of misogyny, racism, cisheteronormativity, ableism, and every other bigotry. When people grow up in this culture, especially privileged people (pretty much all the misogynists we regularly mock here are cishet white men, with maybe a few cishet white women), they see the despised groups as scapegoats and blame them for their problems, because that’s easier than actually solving problems. This is how we got to the current political situation.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I would like to live in a cookies nest.

Insert Cookie Monster gif here.

Viscaria
Viscaria
9 months ago

I must admit it. ‘Twas I who told this man in 1984 that he was boring, forcing him to hate all women forever. Sure, I wasn’t born yet, but my deep-seated anti-engineer prejudice transcends such pitiful bounds as space and time.

Had I known engineers had nests filled with cookies, I might have revised my opinion.

Definitely not Steve
Definitely not Steve
9 months ago

2) Trump says one particular woman is a pig, lunatic misandrists, by the millions, claim that Trump calls all women pigs.

Person recognizes that identifying an isolated occurrence does not justify extrapolating to an entire population.

[Is a MGTOW because] 1) 1984, she-devil asks, what do you do, I say, engineer, she says, engineers are dull boring conservative and therefore completely undesirable.

Does it anyway.

Not an ounce of self-reflection to be seen.

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

@WWTH

I would like to live in a cookies nest.

As would I, though I don’t think I’d like living in one with a MGTOW. That would ruin it for me.

Amtep
Amtep
9 months ago

All women angels?

This is an important question. If it turns out that not *all* women are angels — for example, if there’s one she-devil lurking among the harps and haloes — then women should be written off as a group. It’s just logic.

On what planet?

I, too, would like to know the name of the planet where all women are angels. It sounds kinda awesome. I’m thinking some combination of Wonder Woman and valkyries.

Demonhype
9 months ago

I….wasn’t aware that immigration, illegal or otherwise, was The Big Hotbutton Feminist Issue. Maybe I need to renew my subscription to the Global Feminist Newsletter and get up to date?

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
9 months ago

Saying that engineering is boring isn’t all that mean. On a scale of 1 to Melania, it barely even registers.

Maybe it’s because we see women being threatened, harassed, demeaned and insulted, every second of the day. You get inured to it, especially if you’re a regular reader of this blog. Yet here’s this broflake waging a lifelong vendetta on women because three decades ago one of them didn’t fall down and worship his career choice.

If all it took to make people GTOW was a single rude comment, nobody in the human race would be speaking to anybody else.

Anyway…

1) 1984, she-devil asks, what do you do, I say, engineer, she says, engineers are dull boring conservative and therefore completely undesirable.

…I feel like there’s a scene or two or ten hundred missing here. Obviously the she-devil was a stranger, or she wouldn’t have been asking him what he did. Was this a blind date that went wrong? A casual cocktail party conversation? A corporate recruiter who wouldn’t give him her phone number?

It’s a weird convo, and a weird overreaction. Only someone already in the grip of full-blown misogyny would burn down his entire life over some offhand remark by a stranger, and then blame the stranger for it.

one flew over the cookies nest.

Oh yeah, I remember that book. By Ken Keebler.

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

@Buttercup

…I feel like there’s a scene or two or ten hundred missing here. Obviously the she-devil was a stranger, or she wouldn’t have been asking him what he did. Was this a blind date that went wrong? A casual cocktail party conversation? A corporate recruiter who wouldn’t give him her phone number?

I’m guessing the lack of context is because he made the whole thing up. That would explain the lack of context, details, and the vague nature of it. But even if this did happen to him, I agree that it’s not all that mean.

Amtep
Amtep
9 months ago

The lack of detail about the incident reminds me of issendai’s “The missing missing reasons”

http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

(Content note: abusive relationships)

kupo
kupo
9 months ago

Had I known engineers had nests filled with cookies, I might have revised my opinion.

Come to the dork side. We have cookies. Offers plate of star wars cutout cookies

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

You know, I really thought engineers would prefer pi over cookies.

kupo
kupo
9 months ago

@Naglfar
You’re not wrong. We even have office pie competitions on pi day.

Lainy
Lainy
9 months ago

Wow one women made a mean comment to him and now he’s damaged for life. Sure does makes my complex ptsd from the year of abuse both mental, physical and sexual seem like nothing now. Could these guys be any more fragile?

Another Laura
Another Laura
9 months ago

Just a note – I married an engineer almost 35 years ago. He’s not dull, boring, or conservative. I’d keep him around even if he wasn’t the sexiest man I ever met, because he Knows How to Fix Things. I wouldn’t have kept him just for that, but he really loves the dogs. And the kids.
tl:dr – Engineers can be really good husbands.
Just saying.

QuantumInc
QuantumInc
9 months ago

I agree with Naglfar above, he probably made it up. There is a variety of women out there, and a lot have internalized toxic ideas about men and women and thus judge men according to those toxic ideas; however there obviously a lot of men who are the same. Imagine a man who feels ashamed because he doesn’t live up to the ridiculous, toxic version of masculinity he has internalized. Ideally he would reject that model of masculinity for something better, but that requires a lot of critical thinking and introspection, you might even have to talk about FEELINGS. So the easier path is to blame something external, namely women. Of course there are judgemental, shallow, manipulative, sexist women for the same reason there are judgemental, shallow, manipulative, sexist men. Thanks to confirmation bias MGTOW only see one of those groups.

Kevin
Kevin
9 months ago

Wow, I’ve far more reason to be wary of women than this miggy has, but there’s no way I’d embrace his toxic worldview just because in my younger days my social ineptitude put me in the path of some dangerous b*****s. In my younger days at various times I was violently mugged at the instigation of a female gang leader, slashed by a would – be girlfriend whose advances I’d been blind to, and even arrested on suspicion of attempted murder (released with no further action) due to a spurious allegation of violence. If that had put me off associating with women, I wouldn’t be with ate, and any time in the company of female relatives would be awkward. That said, I tend to isolate myself when my medication is ‘off’ and there’s none of the family, or of ate’s close friends nearby, but that’s just my risk – averse personality.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
9 months ago

1) 1984, she-devil asks, what do you do, I say, engineer, she says, engineers are dull boring conservative and therefore completely undesirable.

If this comment were directed at me, my feelings would be hurt, even decades later.

But what does one woman’s comment have to do with the rest of womankind?

Maybe this is just me — I’m kidding, it’s not — but when a man is awful, I don’t start hating all men. I’m aware that men, like other human beings, are not all alike.

Daughter
Daughter
9 months ago

Comment 1 was hurtful.

Imagine if he could have taken that hurt and used it to empathise with women and femmefolk in engineering, who are routinely subjected to hurtful behaviour, usually from their male colleagues!

Instead, he became the person he is.

Moggie
Moggie
9 months ago

Apparently there are no conservative women?

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
9 months ago

…I kinda wish this guy had gotten through moderation, he sounds like a fun time. I especially enjoy the random poetry part in the middle of his screed.

Katamount
9 months ago

Not sure I’m a big fan of this Dilbert origin story.

One thing I never quite figured out was the “engineers are conservative” thing. Granted, it could be that I studied engineering at a major Canadian university rather than an American one, but despite a handful of obnoxious dude-bro friends of mine, our diverse group meant that there was very little room for bigotry, particularly with respect to women given there were so many in our program and they hung out with us. Furthermore, the engineers at the University of Toronto had their own humanities programs; so when we studied literature, we did it with other engineers rather than the Arts students, which I’d say gave us not only a greater challenge, but also let us explore works from our own perhaps more scientifically-centered perspective. I actually found those humanities courses to be the most rewarding; they’ve stuck with me over the years where a lot of the unused equations have fallen away. Sometimes I crack my old textbooks open to refresh myself on the basics, but I still find myself thinking back to some of those old Alice Munro stories.

I suspect that where a lot of the dude-bro dipshittery originates is in the computer science programs, particularly in the white-bread American schools. When I was in school (about 15 years back), chemical engineering alone was 50% women. Certainly in the 1980s, it was far less.

Either way, 35 years is a loooong time to hold on to a grievance. And these are the same jackwads that claim that women are too emotional.

Cindy
Cindy
9 months ago

@Moggie

One assumes the malebag in question could find one of the 53% of white women who voted for Drumpf, and live happily ever after… or at least until the revolution happens.

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

@Katamount

One thing I never quite figured out was the “engineers are conservative” thing.

I’m not an engineer, but this part didn’t compute for me either. Most of the engineers I know personally (and have discussed politics with) are left-leaning. Granted, there could be selection bias because where I live is predominantly left-leaning, but even then I’d imagine most engineers are probably more likely to know the science regarding climate change etc and wouldn’t be fans of conservative science denialism (unless they work for oil companies and their bottom line depends on it). Then again, my great-uncle was a satellite engineer for decades and he is a hard right evangelical, so it’s definitely possible to be an engineer and be conservative.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
9 months ago

1) 1984, she-devil asks, what do you do, I say, engineer, she says, engineers are dull boring conservative and therefore completely undesirable.

Concerning engineers, I do feel like there is a tendency towards convervatism and other Right wing movements with them and techies. Though this has nothing to do with the profession and more to do with the tendency for these fields to be male dominated and, more often than not, overtly hostile towards women. Thus engineers and the like are less likely to be challenged on the world views they grew up with.

This is especially notorious with the top two engineering schools in my country, which are almost entirely male and which seem to churn out bigots of unparalleled quality.

The worst ofenders I often run across in facebook, and more likely to embrace reactionary and neo-nazi movements, seem to come from these two schools (especially the top 1).

Then again this is Peru we are talking about, a fairly conservative country, not sure how this holds up everywhere else.

kupo
kupo
9 months ago

@Katamount, @Naglfar
I went to a big left-leaning university in a left-leaning state for my software engineering degree. My classmates were at least 80% white male, and were mostly from rich families. They also let plenty of conservative viewpoints slip: they thought the women and PoC got in because of diversity quotas, and that women weren’t as good at the coursework as them,* that it was a pointless waste of their time to have to take humanities courses, that it would be harder for them to pass interviews because companies are looking for diversity hires, etc.

*an email was even sent by the program head blasting them for this rumor and setting the record straight that women were earning higher GPAs

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

@kupo
I’m sorry your classmates were misogynistic assholes. I hadn’t quite anticipated the amount of bigotry amongst engineers, but in light of what you said it makes more sense. Any space with a high percentage of privileged people and no real checks on it tends to slide into bigotry.

Regarding humanities courses, I personally would support engineers taking humanities courses, though plenty of humanities courses have their own issues that need to be resolved separately. I recall a literature course I took my first year of college where all the authors discussed were white, and most were men.

Couch Thing
9 months ago

Tell me more about this cookie nest. What kind of cookies are they? Are they Girl Scout cookies? If so, I am in. Thin mints are life.

Also, this guy is a useless chud.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
9 months ago

@Demonhype:

I….wasn’t aware that immigration, illegal or otherwise, was The Big Hotbutton Feminist Issue.

Scarily enough, I can think of a way this would make sense from his perspective. What do you want to bet this ties back in with the ‘white genocide’ idea in this guy’s mind, that the only reason feminists support immigration is that they want to wipe out the white race by having sex with immigrants instead of good ol’ boys?

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
9 months ago

@Kupo

Concerning bigotry from engineers during school, I would also like to add some of my experiences to the mix:

I went to the top school for law in my country (PUCP), which also has good programs for art, humanities and STEM. Every year the school would hold the interfaculty games, where faculties would compete with each other in a series of sporting events.

When I was still studying, the Engineering faculty had won the title 9 years in a row (it was also mostly male dominated). There was a particular incident (2014) when these dude-bros decided to celebrate their victory by visiting each faculty and directing misogynist and derogatory chants towards women. This took place especially against faculties which were known to have a majority of female students, such as the law faculty.

The chants in and by themselves were made up of not only sexual harassment but the implication that they had gotten into an “easy” career, that they were all looks and no intelligence and that they weren’t competent.

Obviously this shit was reported to campus authorities and facebook groups and these shitstains took to victimizing themselves, despite the witness accounts and video evidence.

As a bonus I should add that some of these people founded the “Make PUCP Great Again” (and you can guess what it’s about).

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

@Jenora Feuer

What do you want to bet this ties back in with the ‘white genocide’ idea in this guy’s mind, that the only reason feminists support immigration is that they want to wipe out the white race by having sex with immigrants instead of good ol’ boys?

Well, since there seems to be extremely high crossover between MGTOWs and white supremacists I’ll bet he does think that way. I find it interesting how he tries to defend his wall by saying it would have doors. I haven’t seen anyone mention physical doors in relation to the wall, but I can see how it would be a tactic to try to defend himself against accusations of racism (spoiler alert: his support of the wall in the first place leaves little doubt that he’s a racist).

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
9 months ago

As for engineers (and speaking as one from U. of Waterloo)… there’s always the Salem Hypothesis, which is that if you have someone who claims to be a scientist but supports creationism, they’re probably an engineer. In fact, I know one of the (Civil?) Engineering professors at Waterloo while I was there was a creationist, because I ran into some letters to the editor from him during a literature search at one point. For some reason, Engineers can be somewhat woo-prone; best guess is that it’s a combination of knowing that they’re smart and a mindset that focuses on known simple solutions rather than trying to figure out why.

Here in Ontario, at least, having at least a half year’s worth of Humanities courses over a four year program is a requirement for any accredited engineering program. I took economics, psychology, an SF literature course, and the law and ethics courses for engineers. (Where else are you going to find a course that’s cross-listed between Engineering and Philosphy.)

Paireon
Paireon
9 months ago

Wow. If I let my experiences from way back when guide my worldview the same way that lummox let this single one (that we’ve heard of; if it’s really the only one he can think of I’m calling shenanigans on it being the root cause of his miggyism), I’d be a serial killer at minimum (I was very bullied in grade and middle school; some of these bullies happened to be girls, which to my knowledge was rather unusual, as bullying was for the most part gender-segregated in my neck of the woods back then).

Instead I post here and mock misogynists and their weird, fragile egos. Go figure.

Also, RE: engineers, I’ve met quite a few with moderate-to-strong right-wing tendencies, and they seem to make a rather high proportion of the profession; haven’t met enough to get anywhere near a decent-sized sample group by scientific standards. Incidentally, those engineers with right-of-center tendencies tend to have know-it-all/prideful/conspiracy and woo-inclined/Dunning-Krueger attitudes and opinions in direct proportion to just how right-wing they are.

Then again I’ve seen similar patterns in law enforcement-related professions and adjacent people, for what it’s worth.

kupo
kupo
9 months ago

For some reason, Engineers can be somewhat woo-prone

This is my pet theory for why bitcoin is so damn popular amongst my colleagues despite the fact they should understand the technology behind it well enough to recognize it for the pyramid scheme scam it is.

Paireon
Paireon
9 months ago

@Jenora Feuer-

Aaahh, good ol’ RationalWiki. I actually checked that page (and the “engineers and woo” one) when I first began to wonder what was it about engineers that made them have oddly reactionary mindsets at times.

Also, salutations from La Belle Province, fellow Canuckistani!

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

@kupo

This is my pet theory for why bitcoin is so damn popular amongst my colleagues despite the fact they should understand the technology behind it well enough to recognize it for the pyramid scheme scam it is.

Could it be a bitcoin version of XKCD’s Engineer Syllogism?
comment image

Catalpa
Catalpa
9 months ago

I graduated in an engineering class that had a 50-50 split of men and women, but I studied environmental engineering, which is one of the disciplines that seems to draw the most women. The majority of my classmates seemed relatively progressive, though I didn’t really know a lot of them.

In my professional career, I’ve encountered a lot of conservative-leaning people. No one super overt about their bigotry, mostly just the standard “poor people need to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps” economic outlook, which is bad enough. Discussions about women and minorities are studiously avoided (mostly due to worries about HR complaints, at least when I’m present), but I’m aware of how often economic conservatism is comorbid with explicit social prejudice. (Not that the people who claim to be “economically conservative but socially liberal” are really any better since conservative economic policy overwhelmingly harms marginalized social groups anyway.)

I’m not sure if the younger generation of engineers is more progressive or if my sample size is just skewed.

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

@Catalpa

Not that the people who claim to be “economically conservative but socially liberal” are really any better since conservative economic policy overwhelmingly harms marginalized social groups anyway.

Plus, whenever I’ve run into these kinds of people (mostly self-identified libertarians), they’re almost always economically and socially conservative even if they’re only vocal about the former. And they seem to always vote conservative.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
9 months ago

My father, as a first-year architecture student (he later decided he was more interested in the Why of buildings and became a historian-geographer specializing in the regional differences between housing styles) took one or more of those Humanities-for-engineers breadth courses and though he never did get into fiction, still has fond memories of the English professor, a former WWII naval officer, who could not talk about Keats without choking up (I googled said prof’s name last year, and I think he’s now mainly known as a pioneer in the academic study of late-medieval religious drama so yay good for him).

For some reason, Engineers can be somewhat woo-prone; best guess is that it’s a combination of knowing that they’re smart and a mindset that focuses on known simple solutions rather than trying to figure out why.

It’s only a single data-point, but didn’t Jack Parsons use to work for JPL?

I think maybe there’s a variant of Dunning-Kruger in which people who are genuinely skilled/knowledgable in one area are at risk of assuming themselves equally expert in all other fields, especially if those fields are commonly perceived as “easier” than theirs. It’s like they view human endeavours as a single pyramid of ranked skills, and if you’ve aquired one of the highly-admired skills you automatically have all the skills ranked beneath it.

Ann K
Ann K
9 months ago

Flashback to college, circa 1962: I once took a shortcut through a room where a class was beginning to convene, exchanged brief greetings with a high school classmate without even breaking stride, and heard someone else say “You’re an engineer, John, you’re not allowed to talk to girls”.

In those days (and probably still) engineering tended to be a boys club. Question: did that male environment tend to turn them into misogynists? Or did their aversion to females play a part in their choice of educational environment? Chicken or egg? I don’t know any stats, but it would be interesting to examine the attitudes of those who went to all-male schools or lived among all-male siblings, to see if they are measurably different from those who spent their lives interacting with females.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
9 months ago

@Ann K

Question: did that male environment tend to turn them into misogynists? Or did their aversion to females play a part in their choice of educational environment?

Maybe a combination of both? I do note a tendency of people who go into engineering where they seem to be more likely to be introverted and socially awkward, and thus less likely to interact with peers of the opposite sex. But then again women are socially awkward as well and yet they do not create toxic environments for men.

I think that many of them are brought up to buy into the conservative worldview that men are more capable than women and the choice of media and entertainment they consume tends to push these traditional views as well. A lot of the fantasy and sci-fi genre seems to be rampant with misogyny.

There’s also the toxic worldview that they are “shunned” for being geeks/nerds and that they are smarter/more capable than everyone else. Therefore their bigotry is both rational and justified and everyone else is wrong.

As for the male environment, it certainly doesn’t help. If I see it in “progressive” groups of men, where all it takes is the absence women for the conversation to devolve into chest-beating and homophobic slurs, I can only imagine what goes on in a mostly conservative/libertarian environment.

Naglfar
Naglfar
9 months ago

I’ve learned quite a bit about the climate of engineering from this thread that I didn’t know, thanks to everyone who shared for educating me. Hopefully the situation improves regarding toxic masculinity and misogyny.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Totally off topic, but need some quick advice. It’s snowing out. By the time I get off work, the roads are going to be crappy, although it is MN so we’re pretty good at handling it.

I don’t have much food in the house and don’t have a car to get more. I would feel bad about making a pizza delivery driver go out in this weather. But if I tip really well, is it okay? I was thinking 10 or 15 dollars.