It’s PLEDGE DRIVE time again! If you’re a fan of this blog, please help fund its continued existence by clicking the button below. THANKS!
By David Futrelle
In 1941, writer Dorothy Thompson invented what she described as “an interesting and somewhat macabre parlor game” called “Who Goes Nazi?” The idea was simple: the next time you’re at a party, or some other social gathering, take a look at those around you and try to guess which ones would, “in a showdown … go Nazi.”
You don’t do this out loud, of course, unless you really want to be punched.
The game feels as relevant at this point in history as it was when Thompson wrote her classic Harper’s essay explaining the rules of the game and offering a series of descriptions of the assorted social types she thought would (or most definitely would not) turn into literal Nazis when the chips were down — from the bank vice president who “has risen beyond his real abilities by virtue of health, good looks, and being a good mixer” (definitely a Nazi in embryo) to the downwardly mobile editor who manages to be intellectual without being a snob about it, about whom Thompson remarks that she “will put my hand in the fire that nothing on earth could ever make him a Nazi.”
Thompson’s portraits of these assorted social types, and her theories about who would and wouldn’t go Nazi, are a little too pat for my tastes; she basically thinks that nice people are immune to Nazism while mean and bitter types are drawn to it like moths to a lamp.
“Kind, good, happy, gentlemanly, secure people never go Nazi,” she wrote.
They may be the gentle philosopher whose name is in the Blue Book, or Bill from City College to whom democracy gave a chance to design airplanes—you’ll never make Nazis out of them. But the frustrated and humiliated intellectual, the rich and scared speculator, the spoiled son, the labor tyrant, the fellow who has achieved success by smelling out the wind of success—they would all go Nazi in a crisis.
Not far from the truth, I think, just a little oversimplified.
Still, the game itself is genius.
Over the last couple of years, for obvious reasons, Thompson’s article has been resurrected and passed around on social media, and several writers have proposed modern updates of her famous game, from the “office edition” to one focused on media figures. The only trouble with playing the game now is that so many of those who would have gone gone Nazi in Thompson’s day already have, in ours.
While the original game is still worth playing, let me propose an alternate version that might be even more entertaining for readers of this blog: Who Goes Red Pill?
Think of the various people you’ve recently met — in real life or online — and try to figure out who among them is most likely to embrace the toxic misogynistic ideology that unites the otherwise disparate groups that make up the manosphere, from MRAs to MGTOWS to incels to PUAs. What personality traits do they exhibit? What behaviors are obvious (or not-so-obvious) tells?
Are they NiceGuys (TM) stewing in aggrieved entitlement? Do they like South Park maybe a little bit too much? Do they get suspiciously angry about female superheroes? Are they fans of Pewdiepie, or Joe Rogan, or Jordan Peterson? Do they complain that women are sexually harassing them by wearing yoga pants? Do they know more than Chris Hansen does about age-of-consent laws? Do they describe themselves as “equity feminists” or “egalitarians?”
The game is a little trickier than it might at first appear. Some of these Jordan-Peterson-loving NiceGuys have already swallowed the Red Pill (and sometimes have even embraced the even more nilhilistic Black Pill), thus disqualifying them as candidates for the game.
Others may exhibit several seemingly obvious tells — but their flirtation with the Red Pill may end up being little more than a passing phase. I’m not sure I quite understand just what makes one person a Red-Pill-swallower and another a Red-Pill-spitter-outer. But maybe you do.
Share your own thoughts below as to what personality types you think are most drawn to the Red Pill (or to Nazism, if you’d prefer to play the original version). Let the games begin!
@ sunny somberea
my lovely fella who I have been with 9 years had terrible misogynistic friends when I met him and he was ok with it as long as he didn’t see the impact of it.
but when I stood up for a friend who had been raped and his friends all turned on me he shunned them and is now more woke.
(I like to think he would have acted this way if anyone had been bullled but im not sure)
sorry if this is unhelpful or derailing
What the utter fuck did I just read?
@Jesalin
I didn’t see that comment before, it must have just gotten through the filter.
*reads it*
Holy shit.
Not sure myself what that is, but my money’s on “skidmarxist” based on their anti capitalist thing and simultaneous claim that wokeness is greedy.
The name appears to be a thinly-veiled call for Trump’s assassination. Does that not violate the comment policy, even if the target is Trump?
I’m gonna go with no.
“The only way to truly be a good person is through self-discipline.”
Bullshit.
” To recognize when the way you feel towards others is simply the result of an animalistic instinct and reign it in.”
And evo-psych bullshit.
@Katamount
My experience with writing short fiction is that when you get stuck in details you can just skip over them and set the next scene. Readers are good at filling in the blanks 🙂 They don’t have to be told how everyone got there.
@Surplus
I believe it does. Kind of surprised David let this one through, seeing as it very clearly seems to be sympathizing with Nazis and calling for assassination.
@Leum, Definitely Not Steve:
Thanks also for your apologies and introspection.
@IronCthulu:
Go fuck yourself.
@WWTH: I completely understand exhaustion! That’s part of why I flew off the handle there… *giggle
@Naglfar
He’s owned by cats, so he knows sometimes it’s necessary to give toys to bat around.
Pull the other one.
@IronCthulhu
Could you define “divorce rape,” please, if you’re going to use the term. What is the thing that women do to men during divorce that is analagous to rape?
I mean, I assume it’s always women doing it to men. I’ve never once heard someone complain about a man “divorce raping” a woman or about a same-gender spouse doing the same. Is “divorce rape” possible by men or by people not in m/f marriages?
@Viscaria
It’s also notable that MRAs constantly complain about “false” rape accusations, but never bring up false divorce rape accusations. If divorce rape was a thing*, and if they viewed it the same twisted and incorrect way they view rape, they’d be very worried about false divorce rape accusations.
*It isn’t a thing. Sure, divorces can be messy and awful, but even a messy divorce is not the same as rape.
@ IronCthulhu:
This type of trauma is resultant from a LACK OF HAVING EXPECTATIONS MET. If someone embraces igno-right-wing ideology because of these events, that person was already practicing MRA/MGTOW lifestyle.
@ Viscaria:
“divorce rape” occurs when a privileged person does not get what they want in a divorce proceeding… usually “punishment” for their spouse
gum-chewing girl
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/dec/17/neolithic-dna-ancient-chewing-gum-denmark
Here’s a rare-these-days spot of good news:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/canada-ban-conversion-therapy-lgbt-trudeau-a9247136.html
@ Naglfar:
not! A “divorce rape” accusation would, in most cases, be leveled by a privileged man against a woman. While “false” COULD mean “aggravated lying”, the NORMAL usage indicates “incorrect”…
… (wait for it…)
and we ALL know MRA/MGTOW can NEVER be “incorrect”….
Personally, despite having much in common with stereotypical incels/miggies, I don’t think I ever really was in danger of actually going redpill. Probably stems from (among other things) the fact that I’m a very cartesian, analytical guy, to the point that it’s through a lens of rationality that I actually managed to come to terms with empathy. I’m now better at it than the vast majority of neurotypical people, and have been for almost two decades at least (yeah I’m kinda bragging, but when you have self-esteem as low as I have that’s actually a good thing, and in any case it’s still true). Long story short, everytime I’d read/hear macho/sexist/misogynist stuff, my brain would auto-analyse it from a bunch of perspectives and pretty always figured it to be dumb bullshit. So in some ways my weirdo autistic mind was actually a boon.
(Oh, and yes, I’m on the spectrum. Non-specific autism spectrum disorder, formerly known as Asperger’s syndrome)
Oh, and I will also confess a fondness for Rick and Morty. I will also confess that a very large subset of its fandom is really fucking embarrassing (something that the showrunners also seem to think, and have aknowledged in the fourth season)
@IronCthulhu
NOT MY DAMN PROBLEM and no fucking excuse for your bullshit you asshole and no excuse for any pill bullshit.
Keep your damn frustration to yourself and don’t expect any woman to do anything about it.
You are probably the type that would leer at me and complain just because I’m not interested like I don’t have a right to be or not be.
And yeah I only have time for hot handsome guys who make my pussy wet. And yeah it’s not leering if I think he’s hot. Deal with it and shut the fuck up.
If you don’t like that then maybe one day you will see women as humans with our own desires.
@Paireon
You never answered my question in the Bhudda thread about what you meant by “stereotypical incel traits”
@ StacySmarty:
Concise n to the point! I like that!
There seem to be commenters hovering around the “who HAS to go red pill”…
Like there’s those who DO, n those who DONT, and those who HAVE NO CHOICE!
Everyone has choices. Even when forced by political and other powers to conform ones actions, one always has a choice what to believe.
I’ve seen some of Rick and Morty, and yes, it appears that a disturbingly large chunk of the fandom is stuck in ‘whoa, cool’ mode as opposed to realizing that yeah, that entire family is really messed up. (See, for example, one episode where Rick casually tells his daughter that if she’d ever seriously been a danger with some of her own inventing while young, he’d probably have killed her and created a copy that wouldn’t have been able to do that. And then refused to answer as to whether or not he already had. This after she had discovered that years ago she’d stranded a childhood friend of hers in a magical kingdom created while she was young.)
Granted, the end of the ‘Pickle Rick’ episode where the psychiatrist calls Rick out on a lot of his shenanigans was well worth it.
@Paireon:
I always liked Douglas Hofstadter’s analysis of the Prisoner’s Dilemma, where he posited a difference between ‘rationality’ and what he called ‘super-rationality’.
– ‘Rationality’ is ‘no matter what the other person does, I’m better off if I defect (screw them over), so I’m going to do that’.
– ‘Super-rationality’ is ‘the other person is going through the same sort of decision making process as I am, and if they’re as good as I am we should come to the same conclusion, and we’re both better off if we co-operate rather than defect, so I’m going to do that’.
Basically, his point was essentially that once you treat other people as people rather than as forces of nature operating without thought, something effectively the same as altruism drops out naturally.
Of course, we’ve already seen lots of evidence that MRA and especially PUA types tend to have problems with ‘people as people’ part of that, especially if the other person is a woman.
@Stacey
I’ve read messages saying that men are not entitled to women, but if men are obsessed with women for trying to meet their own happiness (i.e. feeling like they need to be with a woman to feel “complete”), where would this go to? I’ve seen this being more addressed with girls and women especially in recent Tumblr posts from some short cartoon which I can’t exactly remember.
I would have been down this path if I did happen to be cisgender, but I doubt I’m firmly or at all cisgender – I’d have my own reasons about why I feel the way I do about women that would be different from generally most or all men. This is even though I am genuinely alright with being single (I do find the idea of relationships desirable but stifling at the same time); it’s human nature to want someone in many cases I guess though.
@Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Thanks. He (I assume it’s a he) made me really angry.
They always have a choice not to think I’m at their disposal.
I’m sure the redpill assholes will say I collect orbiters (yes I know their bullshit lingo) but I have lots of guy acquaintances some friends and some I thought were friends but have been turning out to be NiceGuy(TM) types. They have a choice. I’ve been wanting to express things here about one who I wasn’t attracted to at all but who was totally in love with me and who acted like an adult human being with respect for me and dealt with it. But I already know I do too many long posts.
So there is always a choice. Like you *can* choose to not leer at me creepily and it doesn’t matter what I’m wearing and no matter how fascinated your wanker self is that, yes, that really is a real whip I carry and I know how to use it. You can be fascinated and not be someone I’m attracted to and not leer and still stay alive all at the same time. Wow! Who thought? What a nice way to be a non-wanker!
If you want to look at me come be a client where I work as a hostess where you are *supposed* to look at me. No matter who you are and whether I would be physically attracted to you or not it’s *also* not leering if I’m being paid.
@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
A significant number of men appear to have trouble understanding this. The only way they will understand is if they can realize that they aren’t entitled to women’s bodies. The entitlement is something the culture teaches them. The only way to fix this is to teach men and boys that they aren’t entitled and to teach them to respect women, and this teaching should be done by other men. It’s not women’s fault, yet the general implication seems to be that women should fix this problem.
@ StacySmarty:
Yeah… what a concept!!
I used the word “trauma” in relation to the “issues” IronCthulhu was touting; in many cases, that’s not the right word… (tho it works.) What many of the MRAs grouse about on the chans is really… DISAPPOINTMENT, not trauma. But in any case, if the experience of being disappointed causes stress, GET HELP FOR THE STRESS, don’t take it out on the PERSON who is the “object of your desires.” Hell, when soldiers come home with PTSD, we urge them to get help, we don’t urge them to shoot up a grade school.
I have personally been through a shitload of the very experiences the MRA/MGTOW claim are debilitating them…. It’s “Life on Life’s Terms”… that’s all. It was not a constant struggle to avoid becoming a hateful bigot, UNLESS I CHOSE TO DO SO. (spoiler alert: I didn’t)
I’m not a “beta orbiter”, not a “cuck”, not a “whatever-the-MRA/MGTOEW-insult-of-the-day”… I’m a person trying to be nice (no trademark needed)