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By David Futrelle
In 1941, writer Dorothy Thompson invented what she described as “an interesting and somewhat macabre parlor game” called “Who Goes Nazi?” The idea was simple: the next time you’re at a party, or some other social gathering, take a look at those around you and try to guess which ones would, “in a showdown … go Nazi.”
You don’t do this out loud, of course, unless you really want to be punched.
The game feels as relevant at this point in history as it was when Thompson wrote her classic Harper’s essay explaining the rules of the game and offering a series of descriptions of the assorted social types she thought would (or most definitely would not) turn into literal Nazis when the chips were down — from the bank vice president who “has risen beyond his real abilities by virtue of health, good looks, and being a good mixer” (definitely a Nazi in embryo) to the downwardly mobile editor who manages to be intellectual without being a snob about it, about whom Thompson remarks that she “will put my hand in the fire that nothing on earth could ever make him a Nazi.”
Thompson’s portraits of these assorted social types, and her theories about who would and wouldn’t go Nazi, are a little too pat for my tastes; she basically thinks that nice people are immune to Nazism while mean and bitter types are drawn to it like moths to a lamp.
“Kind, good, happy, gentlemanly, secure people never go Nazi,” she wrote.
They may be the gentle philosopher whose name is in the Blue Book, or Bill from City College to whom democracy gave a chance to design airplanes—you’ll never make Nazis out of them. But the frustrated and humiliated intellectual, the rich and scared speculator, the spoiled son, the labor tyrant, the fellow who has achieved success by smelling out the wind of success—they would all go Nazi in a crisis.
Not far from the truth, I think, just a little oversimplified.
Still, the game itself is genius.
Over the last couple of years, for obvious reasons, Thompson’s article has been resurrected and passed around on social media, and several writers have proposed modern updates of her famous game, from the “office edition” to one focused on media figures. The only trouble with playing the game now is that so many of those who would have gone gone Nazi in Thompson’s day already have, in ours.
While the original game is still worth playing, let me propose an alternate version that might be even more entertaining for readers of this blog: Who Goes Red Pill?
Think of the various people you’ve recently met — in real life or online — and try to figure out who among them is most likely to embrace the toxic misogynistic ideology that unites the otherwise disparate groups that make up the manosphere, from MRAs to MGTOWS to incels to PUAs. What personality traits do they exhibit? What behaviors are obvious (or not-so-obvious) tells?
Are they NiceGuys (TM) stewing in aggrieved entitlement? Do they like South Park maybe a little bit too much? Do they get suspiciously angry about female superheroes? Are they fans of Pewdiepie, or Joe Rogan, or Jordan Peterson? Do they complain that women are sexually harassing them by wearing yoga pants? Do they know more than Chris Hansen does about age-of-consent laws? Do they describe themselves as “equity feminists” or “egalitarians?”
The game is a little trickier than it might at first appear. Some of these Jordan-Peterson-loving NiceGuys have already swallowed the Red Pill (and sometimes have even embraced the even more nilhilistic Black Pill), thus disqualifying them as candidates for the game.
Others may exhibit several seemingly obvious tells — but their flirtation with the Red Pill may end up being little more than a passing phase. I’m not sure I quite understand just what makes one person a Red-Pill-swallower and another a Red-Pill-spitter-outer. But maybe you do.
Share your own thoughts below as to what personality types you think are most drawn to the Red Pill (or to Nazism, if you’d prefer to play the original version). Let the games begin!
Could be argued that these conversations are of some potential benefit to lurkers – especially those as come and hate read from the various places David spotlights. Seeing that there are people who felt the same way but took a different path might have an effect.
To which I say: Tough shit.
The topic is distressing to the regulars, boring as hell for those who aren’t being reminded of the potential threat from supposed allies, and, frankly, self indulgent wankery so far as I’m concerned.
(Yeah, I’m irritated. This keeps coming up time after bloody time, as WWTH, cyborgette, and Rhuu have ALL said.)
Hmmmm… I don’t know. I can only speak to my life’s trajectory, growing up in the early internet age where early cable modems and dial-up internet meant time alone with the internet was at a premium. And to be real, this whole “red-pill” concept is one that requires at the very least access to mass media, if not the internet. The idea that women are some kind of manipulative malevolent force only comes about in media extrapolation of day-to-day interactions. Unless we grow up with a virulently misogynistic person around us, it takes images, television, films to pound the familiar tropes into our brains. We’re all subject to it; the distinction is in to what extent we’re aware that’s happening and can parse how much of our attitudes stem from that media.
To get really introspective on the life of young Katamount… hmm… I was raised by divorced educated working-class parents in a cozy North Toronto neighbourhood the elder of two brothers. I was a quiet, introverted child very much into geek stuff (mostly sci-fi/fantasy). I played video games. I read comic books. I played Magic: The Gathering. I was in gifted classes, so I had my own circle of other geek friends, almost universally guys but a couple of girls among them. The usual trials of middle school and high school followed; being awkward I felt left out of in-crowds and broadly avoided social events. I didn’t go to dances or formals. I told myself girls wouldn’t be interested in me, being a geek with weight issues, but I knew that was a lie as I saw geek friends with weight issues finding relationships. I was just too scared to be vulnerable. While I would eventually be diagnosed with depression and get treatment, it was a rough time that first year of university. But I had my own hobbies, which I will elaborate on.
@Cindy
I think the “there but by the grace of God go I” stuff is more an admission that all of the familiar tropes of red-pilling are there (introverted, consuming a lot of “edgy” internet material) and had that continued without a critical eye, the relentless propaganda might have overrode certain barriers we build up that compartmentalizes the online world from the world of day-to-day interactions.
If’n you ask me (and this might be TMI, so just to give a heads up)… I think what really separates the world of the red-pilled online internet CHUD from functional human beings is the way we relate to pornography. It’s probably one of the hardest things to study because very few of us want to delve into our kinks with another person (even ones we’re intimate with), but as I look back on the evolution of my own taste in adult entertainment, I see some key points of divergence.
With internet access at a premium and my latchkey kid time alone short, I would print off whatever nudie pictures I could find and hide them in a box in my room, bringing them out at night for their obvious purpose. However, the printers at the time being inkjet meant I couldn’t do it a lot without draining the very expensive cartridges. Black and white was less wasteful, so I would find dirty stories and fanfiction here and there and make use of my imagination. That’s actually what got me wanting to write dirty stories myself, which I would once I had access to a computer of my own. Then once internet was cheap enough to have on multiple computers, that’s when I came across Amanda Woodfin (nee Payne) and her furry smut that was far more tender and emotional than the obnoxiously misogynistic mainstream stuff that was downloadable on KaZaA or Morpheus. Amanda’s stuff got me into furry art, which I’ve kept up for sixteen years now (at varying degrees of production). I have my own characters that while certainly quite randy themselves have their own
The point being that simple logistics required me to explore my own imagination and ultimately that led me to a community that I think explores sexuality in a broadly healthy manner. Certainly more healthy than mainstream porn these days, which anybody with Wi-Fi can stream on their phones in an instant. Combine this with defunded sex-ed programs and no wonder so many very-online young men have problematic relationships with women.
TL;DR – More scrutiny towards porn will I think highlight where “red pill” attitudes will arise.
Katamount, it seems like you are saying that you came to the place you did because the porn that you sought just wasn’t up to the graphic quality that the young you liked? That is if the logistics like you say had allowed the porn you first sought you wouldn’t have asked questions. If so that’s not saying much. But maybe you meant something else so if so sorry.
I know I am the very last one here ever who should be kink-shaming anyone of any gender and good for you that you found a way to express yourself creatively. And I apologize if I sound kink-shame-y or misinterpreted you because I know you were sharing something sensitive.
I just feel very strongly about this because as I’ve expressed here I really love very visual, dramatic and interactive play. The visuals of it and the writing back and forth about it (between the people in my BDSM group) is something I find really hot but some guys who express interest in it take the result for granted. They never make it into our group but the way they talk you can tell they take for granted the beautiful result of the scene that we make and ignore all the effort and really heartfelt creative energy and all the just hard work that goes into getting to that point. Like “oohhh Mistress Stacey you’re so hot” leering at me not realizing that while they were spending all that time wanking to me on Friday night I was actually reading up on the physics of whipcracking and practicing or driving two hours to go to a whip arts exhibition and workshop so I could know what I’m doing.
I always hope this is what they mean when they say this, but so many times when people have said how easily they could’ve gone red pill to me in person, it has this air of “and I expect you to do something about this” to it that really gets my wind up.
Honestly, I do feel like this is an important conversation to be had by men with other men, not with feminists. We already fucking know this, there enough who do take the red pill to prove this.
@ Stacey
Someone tried to explain this to me once. I’d asked whether it was true or a myth that it’s the tip breaking the sound barrier. I remember them saying something about “you know how the top of a car wheel goes twice as fast as the car…” and then my brain broke. So I admire your tenacity in researching.
When this is brought up to women, a lot of times it feels like the guy wants something… like, what? Do you think we owe you something? We don’t owe you anything. Do you want us to comfort you because “wah, you act like a decent human being and that’s hard for whatever reason”? Because I personally don’t find that difficult. Do you want us to apologize on behalf of all women kind for that fact that we’re hated and discriminated against and brutalized? That’s something we deserve an apology for, not the other way around.
Bringing this up to women doesn’t make all that much sense to me. It’s still, in a way, putting the onus on us to deal with this problem.
When I said I didn’t find it difficult, I meant that I don’t find being a decent human being difficult. Where did the edit button go?
@Yutolia
I agree, as shown by my previous comment. It always seems that issues that are primarily caused by men but mainly affect women, such as rape or misogyny, are always framed as women’s responsibilities to prevent. I’m fine to be a part of conversations about this, but I don’t think the burden should be on me or you for something other people are doing.
@Alan Robertshaw
Here is a decent explanation of the wheel speed thing. Regarding whip physics, I was of the impression that it does break the sound barrier, but I’ll leave it to Stacey to explain the details, seeing as she’s undoubtedly more knowledgeable about this.
Equity feminists? Really? Is it that bad of a label? I use it because I want to make it clear that I advocate for men’s issues as well as women’s, but don’t want to call myself “egalitarian” (anti-feminist). I just find it difficult to believe that anyone who would identify as any kind of feminist is a burgeoning red-piller. It’s not like the manosphere really cares about the “equity” part; they just hear “feminist”, & they see red (pill).
But I could just be naive. I thought the label “Liberaltarian” would catch on as a short-hand for libertarian socialist, but underestimated how unpopular Libertarians are ?
@Alan
Technically it is. Not that the tip doesn’t break the sound barrier, but to get the loud cracking noise you’ve got to form a loop in the whip that moves from the handle to the tip. That loop breaking the sound barrier is what makes the loud crack.
@Dalaila
The real problem with that term is that it implies that mainstream feminism isn’t about equality. As a result, it’s used by reactionary antifeminists pretending to be feminists, like Christina Hoff Sommers and Camille Paglia (the former is also known for calling herself a “factual feminist”). Same with “egalitarianism.” I definitely support equality for all people, but I don’t use those words because of their connotations.
@Stacey
I was attempting to articulate that the limitations of access of the younger me required me to summon creativity and empathy in a way that modern consumers may not have to. Many simply consume porn passively, uncritically, gradually desensitizing themselves until only the most extreme forms are gratifying.
Had I been raised fully immersed in the internet, it’s hardly a given that I would be that passive a consumer, but it certainly makes it easier to forgo imagination and critical engagement.
@Dalaila
The feminism that equity feminists pursue is the bare minimum. Yes, women have legal equality in many developed nations, but this is where the feminists in this site will argue that such feminism is ineffective, since that’s where it goes.
Take for instance Erdogan’s speech regarding women – he insisted that women’s rightful place is at home even though he also asserted that women have equality under the law.
The problematic aspect of this is that women are left unable to exercise their freedoms because of cultural standards, largely motivated by religious fundamentalist and socially conservative philosophies (or such interpretations thereof). Such a cultural view of women may also hinder the proper legal equality that they are entitled to such as issues regarding pay. Sure, they may choose different occupations to explain at least partly the unequal pay, but there’s a mentality that women are not deserving of positions in other fields (especially those more likely to pay higher wages on average) – this is even if religious, political and societal institutions insist on women’s equality before the law.
Equity feminism deems women’s legal protection as adequate but does not question the mindsets that make people believe women are undeserving of participation in certain aspects of society because of general biological differences or as informed by various repressive philosophies that may contradict what a legal system guarantees.
@Yutolia
That is exactly how I feel. If a guy does that and I’m not too mad at him I tell him to go read the article on feminist cookie in Feminism 101 or something like that and shut up until he does and gets it.
I apologize for my posts about being redpillable when I was younger. I see how they are frightening and encourage an attitude of women-should-be-careful as weirwoodtreehugger and others have described. I will be more careful in future to avoid creeping people out both here and elsewhere.
@Naglfar:
I was agreeing with you all as well. I completely forgot to say that!
@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
Being a good person should be a basic expectation, not going above and beyond. I’m not going to reward people for simply doing what they should be doing otherwise. They’re people, not dogs. I give my dog rewards for basic things to train her. People I expect better of.
@Yutolia
No worries, I was just pointing out that I agreed with your idea.
@Alan
Thank you.
Dalillama (ever brilliant!) sums it up nicely and accurately and better than I could.
One of my inspirations is April Choi not only because she’s beautiful and amazing but is a credentialed scientist that knows the physics of her whip and also comes from a dance background.
I love my bullwhip and am carrying it or at least wearing it holstered more and more just on regular social occasions (hah, well “regular” for me!) and not just at events at my BDSM group or other fetish social events. I mean when I’m actually spending time with my gorgeous slave of course I love having it for the aesthetic and creating a really subtle but powerful energy surrounding our beautiful intimacy. But I mean also I really am starting to like it that my guy friends know more about this part of me and like maybe in the course of other stuff going on first at one point and then more and more they see me dressed like I’m on my way to play with my slave, with harness and whip in hand because it’s like really showing who is decent and who has been a undercover Niceguy (TM) for a while.
It’s too bad because the term “equity” is in fact distinct in an important way from the “equality” espoused by many of these assholes. It’s yet another example of a progressive term stolen and misinterpreted for reactionaries’ benefit. “Intersectionality” could have suffered the same fate, but I think its firm association with black women has prevented that from happening.
Personally, I think I’ve gotten a little too good at detecting red flags. I once posted on this site that I was observing my church community sliding into fascism, but my observations weren’t about overtly fascist behaviours or an agreement within church leadership to ever more reactionary political stances. It was more about how they have been handling the presence of hard fundamentalist congregation members, how much of far-right ideology many people were willing to allow someone to say without much consequence while also dismissing moderate liberal stances out of hand. I knew someone who said he wanted the church to be accepting of different gender identities, and a short while after that I never saw him again. And of course I’m pretty sure most of them voted for Doug Ford.
—
On the “I could have been redpilled” topic: I’ve seen it being brought up a lot in the past, but it seems particularly inappropriate to me to respond to a thread about asking who could be a redpiller with “Me. I could be / could have been one.”
I think the intended point is akin to the Alan Moore quote, “All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That’s how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day.” Of course it’s important to talk about the fact that society aggressively promotes a hierarchical ideology based on whiteness and cis-het-maleness. It’s important to recognize that many of us have grown up in conservative communities, or been bombarded with recommendations of far-right media, or had some variation and combination of such experiences. However, using that and saying, “I could have succumbed to this” seems overly reductive and fallacious. The rise of fascism is a statistical, collective phenomenon. Individuals are more complicated than that. Really nobody knows what a slight change in history could have done. Hell, we’re all someone else’s one bad (or good) day from not even existing, probably. So what’s the point in that kind of contemplation in a feminist space?
Recommendation algorithms rely on the assumption that similar people like similar things, that statistical trends are better at telling an individual what they like than the individual themselves. Of course these algorithms have been somewhat successful, but far from perfectly so. If they worked as well as people like to think, there wouldn’t be YouTube channel blocking browser extensions. I think it’s a testament to the difference between admitting to being exposed to far-right ideologies and claiming that I, personally, could have succumbed to it.
Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
I had to endure a staff meeting yesterday where a man with whom I am normally friendly decided to use me as a verbal punching bag. In the “office Nazi” article, he would be the Internet Guy. It was all about how awful his childhood was, how terribly his mother treats him, and that if he ever needed a service animal, he would kill himself. Religion is stupid, people who believe in God are naive, etc. I went home and cried rather than stand up for myself, because I am genuinely afraid he will hurt himself or someone else. It makes me hate myself.
I have to say I am very surprised by the strong negative reception to my comments on this thread. I have taken some time to consider how to reply (or whether I should even bother), and I have decided I don’t want the negative air to hang.
I want to try to clarify something, for those who would accept it. I do not blame women for misogynist beliefs or hostile actions from men. I did not intend to give the impression that women are to blame for any beliefs I might once have had, and I definitely am in no way “one bad experience away” from going and believing horrible things (I don’t think I ever was).
I am not looking for a cookie, and I am not hoping someone else will do emotional labor for me to work through past me’s problems. I’ve dealt with those problems on my own, and I have been comfortable in feminist spaces for years without needing approval. My hope was to try and explore the root causes of misogyny – which I believe is one of the raisons d’etre of this blog.
Boys are raised in a society that is saturated with misogyny and racism and toxic messages. It’s our duty as adults to be vigilant for the biases we have developed as a result.
So here is the lesson I have learned from my introspection (I think it is both useful and very on-topic for the thread): a person who is going to go red-pill is a person who scapegoats other people for their own misfortune, and who refuses to face their own shortcomings and admit to their own mistakes.
I think that’s why I never went down that dark path. My life sucked, but I refused to blame anyone else for it.
Sorry for the discomfort I have caused people, and thank you if you made it through this post anyway.
@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
April Choi is amazing with the whip. IIRC she also set her dress on fire at her wedding, which is impressive.
@An Impish Pepper
The MRAs have tried to take intersectionality, but failed. Notably when Dean Esmay tried to claim that a queer black trans* woman had more privilege than him because of his upbringing. However, I’m pretty sure everyone saw through that one.
@An Impish Pepper
I think in many cases, it’s best to conflate religious fundamentalism with fascism, an ideology that is based on not questioning the natural order of things (even if problematic).
If the racist intentions of persecuting Jews isn’t made explicit, I reckon it’s gonna be backed up by the interpretation of Bible events because they don’t see Jesus as the messiah.
Your ability to detect such red flags is valuable, and I mean it. I don’t want such repressive fucks taking control over the world for any longer, as someone with gender issues and born in a religious background.
I’d like to thank James Hutchings for his link. I’m reading The Authoritarians now.
Gonna need a source for this, seeing as it’s presented as fact.
@Leum, @Definitely not Steve
Thank you for the introspection and for taking the criticism well.