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By David Futrelle
In 1941, writer Dorothy Thompson invented what she described as “an interesting and somewhat macabre parlor game” called “Who Goes Nazi?” The idea was simple: the next time you’re at a party, or some other social gathering, take a look at those around you and try to guess which ones would, “in a showdown … go Nazi.”
You don’t do this out loud, of course, unless you really want to be punched.
The game feels as relevant at this point in history as it was when Thompson wrote her classic Harper’s essay explaining the rules of the game and offering a series of descriptions of the assorted social types she thought would (or most definitely would not) turn into literal Nazis when the chips were down — from the bank vice president who “has risen beyond his real abilities by virtue of health, good looks, and being a good mixer” (definitely a Nazi in embryo) to the downwardly mobile editor who manages to be intellectual without being a snob about it, about whom Thompson remarks that she “will put my hand in the fire that nothing on earth could ever make him a Nazi.”
Thompson’s portraits of these assorted social types, and her theories about who would and wouldn’t go Nazi, are a little too pat for my tastes; she basically thinks that nice people are immune to Nazism while mean and bitter types are drawn to it like moths to a lamp.
“Kind, good, happy, gentlemanly, secure people never go Nazi,” she wrote.
They may be the gentle philosopher whose name is in the Blue Book, or Bill from City College to whom democracy gave a chance to design airplanes—you’ll never make Nazis out of them. But the frustrated and humiliated intellectual, the rich and scared speculator, the spoiled son, the labor tyrant, the fellow who has achieved success by smelling out the wind of success—they would all go Nazi in a crisis.
Not far from the truth, I think, just a little oversimplified.
Still, the game itself is genius.
Over the last couple of years, for obvious reasons, Thompson’s article has been resurrected and passed around on social media, and several writers have proposed modern updates of her famous game, from the “office edition” to one focused on media figures. The only trouble with playing the game now is that so many of those who would have gone gone Nazi in Thompson’s day already have, in ours.
While the original game is still worth playing, let me propose an alternate version that might be even more entertaining for readers of this blog: Who Goes Red Pill?
Think of the various people you’ve recently met — in real life or online — and try to figure out who among them is most likely to embrace the toxic misogynistic ideology that unites the otherwise disparate groups that make up the manosphere, from MRAs to MGTOWS to incels to PUAs. What personality traits do they exhibit? What behaviors are obvious (or not-so-obvious) tells?
Are they NiceGuys (TM) stewing in aggrieved entitlement? Do they like South Park maybe a little bit too much? Do they get suspiciously angry about female superheroes? Are they fans of Pewdiepie, or Joe Rogan, or Jordan Peterson? Do they complain that women are sexually harassing them by wearing yoga pants? Do they know more than Chris Hansen does about age-of-consent laws? Do they describe themselves as “equity feminists” or “egalitarians?”
The game is a little trickier than it might at first appear. Some of these Jordan-Peterson-loving NiceGuys have already swallowed the Red Pill (and sometimes have even embraced the even more nilhilistic Black Pill), thus disqualifying them as candidates for the game.
Others may exhibit several seemingly obvious tells — but their flirtation with the Red Pill may end up being little more than a passing phase. I’m not sure I quite understand just what makes one person a Red-Pill-swallower and another a Red-Pill-spitter-outer. But maybe you do.
Share your own thoughts below as to what personality types you think are most drawn to the Red Pill (or to Nazism, if you’d prefer to play the original version). Let the games begin!
@David
I’m gonna play a round of this game on the next ep of my podcast (full credit given of course).
We’ll get a list of actors, musicians e.t.c and debate whether or not they go full red pill if exposed to the ideology.
http://www.violetwanderers.com if anyone’s interested in checking out our Queer hosted comedy podcast btw.
Cindy,
Yeah. Men just love to come here and share how they could join a hate group against women. It’s definitely uncomfortable to always hear about the slightest little thing can turn a man into a virulent misogynist.
@Alexis Filth
You need to talk about Keanu Reeves. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t, but you make the final call.
It is my belief that people aren’t innately good, we have to try to be good. (O am assuming this is a common belief.)
@Cindy, I am guessing this blog has a strong appeal to folks who have made a specific effort to “be good” in this area, to unlearn many of the poor lessons they absorbed growing up. But, yes, dwelling too much on “what a jerk I used to be” can certainly make folks uncomfortable in any context.
Getting back to David’s observation, I am sad I missed the chance to play the original “would they Nazi” game. Now the answer key has been revealed, and all I can do is shake my head at the results. Many folks (including friends and family) whom I would never have guessed would go Nazi have disappointed me greatly, though there have been some pleasant surprises.
“Red Pill” encompasses far more than just misogyny, tho. It’s a fantasy that “EVERYTHING you see is fabricated, and malevolent forces are controlling society.”
There’s an unbroken line from MRA philosophy to Steven Miller’s “I know a ‘deep state’ action when I see one.”
@Weird Eddie
The real irony of the whole thing is that malevolent forces are controlling society. But in reality, the “red pill” people are the bad guys, and their side is the malevolent force. Fascists are rising to power worldwide, and if that’s not a malevolent force I don’t know what is. The real situation is the exact inverse of what they think.
@Cindy : I see “how easily I could have been redpilled” similar to “how easily I could have been a collaborator to the nazi” .
All the collaborators in my family were dead before I was of age to speak. But one thing I am certain of is that not all of them were senseless, cruel monsters. Some were just morally weak or in difficulty.
At some point you need to come to term with the fact while some people will be unflinching moral bastions, most aren’t. And it don’t mean thoses peoples are not human or not respectable at all. And maybe you personally is strong enough to be sure you would never turn the wrong way, I for one I am not so sure of myself.
Also, I know that at some point, I desesperatly wanted some kind of fantasy similar to the one the redpill sell to its devotees. The fantasy that I am special and only kept in check by a jealous society. The fantasy that the world is against me but I am special enough that it won’t break me.
Knowing your weakness is hard, but it’s also necessary because fascists aren’t intelligent or persuasive enough to endoctrinate people left and right. They target peoples when they are weak and seeking for a siren call.
I think someone’s opinion about the new Star Wars movies is a pretty good indicator.
@Nagflar : yes and not. There isn’t a single force that control the society. it’s more like a pile of lazy and greedy individuals who each make the society a bit worse.
To elaborate, it’s pretty telling about how alive and well patriarchy still is when feminist women are still expected to walk on eggshells, even when discussing the most horrific and violent misogyny, lest someone, somewhere interpret our words as man hating. Yet men still feel entirely comfortable discussing around women how only some circumstance, lucky coincidence or lack of opportunity stopped them from embracing an ideology that favors the complete subjugation of women.
Whether it’s meant to or not, it sends the message that women had better be careful, better be nice to men, because they’re all a bitter experience away from joining a hate group against us. It also signals that even the more feminist friendly of men seem to view it as the job of women to listen to and take care of men emotionally even when it harms us.
This may be a subject best kept among groups of men.
And if anyone thinks this take an overreaction, I’ve only started saying this once we got to about the 100th post where the conversation takes this turn.
@Cindy
Not at all. I rather think the opposite. It is good that so many people have had an experience like that.
My opinion is that ALL people should have experienced darker moments as children or young adults, perhaps when they join in taunting someone but realize it has gone too far and they are being needlessly cruel, or join a community only to notice how it is poisoning their daily experience.
A person who knows that they are capable of bad thought and behavior remains always on guard against it and is less easily swayed/broken by negative experiences later in life than somebody who utterly rejects the idea that they could ever go wrong and thereby opens themselves to the danger of always projecting their negative ideas (which obscures these actions from themselves), until it becomes very easy for them to say, “I am not nazi/racist/bigot/whatever , I did it because reasons/circumstances,” because if they are not the kind of person who does something bad, then obviously it’s the other people’s fault.
I think every person should be a little wary of themselves, and all these early “there but for the grace of gods go I” experiences facilitate that.
@WWTH : I would note that it’s important to remember that you make it look like it’s only men who would easily fall into ideology that ask for the complete subjugation of women, but it’s wrong. Women fall into that almost as fast as men, and way more often than man-hating.
Generally speaking, it’s good to remember that racists hate minorities and opprimed group, *even*, and maybe *especially* if they are member of a minority. Racism isn’t hatred of the different, it’s hatred of the weak.
I’m 100% with Cindy and WWTH, here, and frankly tired of this discussion. Tired of defending myself for being horrified that men so casually discuss how they very easily could have joined a hate group against me.
Would you so casually state you probably would have joined the KKK had you stumbled across a convincing blog? That you would have joined the Proud Boys had you wandered into the wrong subreddit? That you would have become a full-on Nazi had you read a few too many alt-news sites? Would you do all those things on a blog dedicated to fighting systemic racism, and be confused when BIPOC got upset with you for it?
Dang, no edit link.
@Ohlmann
I’ve yet to see a woman on here pull this “there but for the grace of God” crap on this blog. Once it happens, then we’ll talk about the women who do it.
@WWTH
I don’t think these people are saying, “I am but one frustration away from turning on you all,” I think it’s more “I have realized how precarious social contract and basic human decency can be, so I try to be vigilant because I do not want to hurt myself or others.” The sharing of experiences is not meant to be an underlying warning, it’s meant as reassurance of sorts to themselves and to others.
Ohlmann,
I’m really fucking aware that women engage in internalized misogyny, often because they like white supremacy. But thanks ever so much for explaining that to me.
I’m not really sure why this means I can’t talk about an aspect of common male behavior that makes me uncomfortable.
I guess I’ll wait for you to mansplain more about how to feminist correctly so that I’ll understand.
@Cindy
No you’re not the only one, this comes up from dudes here almost every time Red Pill/incels/etc. gets discussed. IDK what motivates it but I also find it exhausting and not very useful.
Re: the Who Goes Red Pill? game
The most reliable sign I’ve found, IME, is a person’s prior attitude towards racist/sexist jokes and insults. I am looking at a small sample size, but everyone I know who went in that direction had a prior history of making really creepy jokes and comments, and then covering their ass with “free speech”/”it’s just a joke”/concern trolling.
I don’t think any red flag is a guarantee one way or the other – that’s just one of the horrifying things about bigotry and totalitarian movements, you never know who will turn traitor. But IMO having a history of “not really serious” bigotry, and of generally being an edgelord, is a major factor. That kind of behavior is often where a person shows who they really are.
Dudes whose profile pics feature a dead fish, maybe? Also, dudes who wear sunglasses on the back of their head while indoors.
I also am with Cindy, WWTH, kupo and Cyborgette. When men say they could have been or almost were red pill or some other misogynist it makes me feel like they’re saying that’s it’s really just normal to be that way and I’m supposed to bend over backwards to give them a prize and thank *them* for being so different. Like I’m supposed to give them their feminist cookie. It’s a close neighbor of NiceGuy(TM)-ism.
@Cyborgette
I’d see that as a big red flag as well. I know several people who started out making edgy jokes before going full alt-right. Or maybe they were alt-right before but realized that it was more acceptable to make those “jokes” but not to openly espouse their views. Either way, I agree that that’s a huge red flag. The modern alt-right began with using supposed jokes as a means for plausible deniability, so they’ll still do it today.
If the discussion of whether or not I could have been red pilled or not is making people uncomfortable I’m more then willing to drop it.
I am a lurker.
I know this place.I would like to say that I have never seen such beauty when you take someone down.
My country is on fire. I am drunk
Thankyou David
I would like to quote WWTH’s entire post with a “fucking this”.
Friends who would like everyone to know that “there but for the grace of god go i”, trust us that we know.
We are all constantly aware that all of our allies are (apparently) but a youtube binge away from going full fascist. And if we weren’t, the people who post “sheesh, sure am lucky i didn’t have access to these internet sites when i was a kid, otherwise i’d be calling for the death of all hypergamous sluts who won’t have sex with me!!!” Sure do like to make it clear.
If you want a space to discuss how to better support boys and men so they don’t fall into what is a hate filled ideology, that’s a discussion we can have.
But all of the “bullet dodged, so lucky!!!!” Reinforces this:
(From WWTH’s post above.)
@WWTH
How do you think those women would find both white supremacy and internalized misogyny appealing? To a minor extent, I think they are linked, but I can rather easily imagine my mother trying to enforce gender roles (even though they have mostly been shaped by Spanish colonizers) and deriding white people for their selfishness, weak family values, weak academic and work discipline and dependency on the government.
Could it be that ethnically white societies, especially since their adoption of Christianity, have become or been more gender conforming than societies that have historically not adopted Abrahamic religions?
I do believe there’s a link, because gender non-conforming white people are deemed to be a “threat” to the white race. I think there might be a link too in non-white communities, but I’m not as certain on this. If so, I do believe it’s probably as a result of either Christianity or Islam or something completely different, embraced by the natives or forced by the colonizers.
Otherwise I could be missing the point entirely, but I still think gender conformity in the form of internalized misogyny should be combatted. I am someone though who envied white people on occasion (and occasionally still does) because I felt like they were freer to express themselves in an environment where religion seemed less significant – there’s a lot of gender policing in non-white communities too, as a result of religion and historical attitudes forced upon ethnic minority communities.
@Rhuu
That is a discussion worth having. The problem, I feel, is that when people have this discussion it seems like it always ends with “women need to do x, y, and z to prevent men from becoming hateful fascists.” I feel that men need to do more to prevent other men and boys from falling down that rabbit hole. That’s not to say women can’t play a part in the solution, but that it seems that too often, as in other areas, women are expected to do the brunt of the labor.