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Who Goes Red Pill? A sequel to Dorothy Thompson’s Nazi-guessing parlor game

Take the fucking blue pill

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By David Futrelle

In 1941, writer Dorothy Thompson invented what she described as “an interesting and somewhat macabre parlor game” called “Who Goes Nazi?” The idea was simple: the next time you’re at a party, or some other social gathering, take a look at those around you and try to guess which ones would, “in a showdown … go Nazi.”

You don’t do this out loud, of course, unless you really want to be punched.

The game feels as relevant at this point in history as it was when Thompson wrote her classic Harper’s essay explaining the rules of the game and offering a series of descriptions of the assorted social types she thought would (or most definitely would not) turn into literal Nazis when the chips were down — from the bank vice president who “has risen beyond his real abilities by virtue of health, good looks, and being a good mixer” (definitely a Nazi in embryo) to the downwardly mobile editor who manages to be intellectual without being a snob about it, about whom Thompson remarks that she “will put my hand in the fire that nothing on earth could ever make him a Nazi.”

Thompson’s portraits of these assorted social types, and her theories about who would and wouldn’t go Nazi, are a little too pat for my tastes; she basically thinks that nice people are immune to Nazism while mean and bitter types are drawn to it like moths to a lamp.

“Kind, good, happy, gentlemanly, secure people never go Nazi,” she wrote.

They may be the gentle philosopher whose name is in the Blue Book, or Bill from City College to whom democracy gave a chance to design airplanes—you’ll never make Nazis out of them. But the frustrated and humiliated intellectual, the rich and scared speculator, the spoiled son, the labor tyrant, the fellow who has achieved success by smelling out the wind of success—they would all go Nazi in a crisis.

Not far from the truth, I think, just a little oversimplified.

Still, the game itself is genius.

Over the last couple of years, for obvious reasons, Thompson’s article has been resurrected and passed around on social media, and several writers have proposed modern updates of her famous game, from the “office edition” to one focused on media figures. The only trouble with playing the game now is that so many of those who would have gone gone Nazi in Thompson’s day already have, in ours.

While the original game is still worth playing, let me propose an alternate version that might be even more entertaining for readers of this blog: Who Goes Red Pill?

Think of the various people you’ve recently met — in real life or online — and try to figure out who among them is most likely to embrace the toxic misogynistic ideology that unites the otherwise disparate groups that make up the manosphere, from MRAs to MGTOWS to incels to PUAs. What personality traits do they exhibit? What behaviors are obvious (or not-so-obvious) tells?

Are they NiceGuys (TM) stewing in aggrieved entitlement? Do they like South Park maybe a little bit too much? Do they get suspiciously angry about female superheroes? Are they fans of Pewdiepie, or Joe Rogan, or Jordan Peterson? Do they complain that women are sexually harassing them by wearing yoga pants? Do they know more than Chris Hansen does about age-of-consent laws? Do they describe themselves as “equity feminists” or “egalitarians?”

The game is a little trickier than it might at first appear. Some of these Jordan-Peterson-loving NiceGuys have already swallowed the Red Pill (and sometimes have even embraced the even more nilhilistic Black Pill), thus disqualifying them as candidates for the game.

Others may exhibit several seemingly obvious tells — but their flirtation with the Red Pill may end up being little more than a passing phase. I’m not sure I quite understand just what makes one person a Red-Pill-swallower and another a Red-Pill-spitter-outer. But maybe you do.

Share your own thoughts below as to what personality types you think are most drawn to the Red Pill (or to Nazism, if you’d prefer to play the original version). Let the games begin!

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Naglfar
Naglfar
11 months ago

The real catch here is that most of the types that would go red pill already have. It’s hard to find people just on the edge. If one does though, we must prevent them from falling into red pill ideology.

Lilome
Lilome
11 months ago

I want to set some ground rules… does decrying the fall of western civilization and citing a guy who goes out of his way to harass women journalists but who does not spend much time online count as going red pill?
How about the people who feel that police officers killed in the line of duty are being neglected by their communities and the media?

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
11 months ago

How many of them are red-pill online but keep it hidden in person or try to? Like NiceGuy (TM) who just couldn’t stand that I was being cruel to him by existing at him and not “giving him a chance” because he “spent all that time” with me. He seems like the internet complainer type and I wonder if after this past Saturday I’m the subject of a whiny post on a creepy incel forum. Jerk.

I’m sorry I’m still mad. I don’t mean to rant though.

rv97
rv97
11 months ago

Viewing feminine expressions on anyone as problematic generally I think. If people who consider themselves women are doing it, “it’s a problem”. If anyone tries to make themselves effeminate, “it’s a problem”.

It can be obvious in some cases but in others, not very. If they don’t obviously hold such attitudes towards women, then I would probably wager that stances on abortion, and if they conflate the LGBT community with pedophiles (or otherwise hold another disparaging opinion on the LGBT community) they may be telling, although I guess it would mean I’d like to put nearly anyone who considers themselves Catholic for the abortion part as being in danger of the red pill.

I think those define someone as being in danger of being affected by the red pill. Opposing abortion demonizes the sexual freedom and agency of those who can be pregnant (typically women), especially since ovary owners can at best predict and not really will when they release gametes I believe (I am someone who doesn’t have ovaries, so please make corrections as needed). Opposing the LGBT community is forcing one (potentially parasitic and abusive IMO) romantic and sexual dynamic between adults and otherwise forcing gender expressions on people.

I’m not sure if personality can factor into this as much over beliefs. Someone can be totally nice but end up being likely to swallow the red pill, being nice at least to save their own ass, or publicly sanitize their own belief system in an effort to make it more appealing to others.

Naglfar
Naglfar
11 months ago

@Lilome
I’d like some rules as well. I’m not sure what qualifies as red pilled vs almost there.

James Hutchings
11 months ago

There’s been quite a lot of research into this question, starting in the 1940s and continuing until today. A good summary can be found at http://www.theauthoritarians.org

Big Titty Demon
Big Titty Demon
11 months ago

frustrated and humiliated intellectual

I’m interested in this though… this could describe me easily. I’ve had my research stolen by men, credit taken for my work so that men could achieve the same high grade as myself with no way to stop it without having my reputation slammed in the entire department, been given a lesser grade for literally the same work as a man (and when the professor was called on this, been told it was because he “felt I understood it less”), and been in classes where after I received a C+, a failing grade in that class, I overheard the professor cheerfully telling his colleague “I never give a woman a higher grade than a B.” I’ve been subordinate to intellectuals who took it upon themselves to scream at their women underlings only; I’ve been driven out of a degree program by an advisor who took it upon himself to publicly humiliate me in front of the department multiple times (I couldn’t hack it while in the midst of a mental breakdown created by the healthcare at that institution, which is a totally different story of women being mistreated by men); I have literally only in the last year been met with the success that I have striven for all my life so now I’m scared to death it will suddenly be swept out from under my feet.

I have been extremely frustrated and humiliated intellectually in my life, many times, to this day. I’m actually more than a little bit bitter about it.

I also would never ever go Nazi. Or Red-Pill or whatevs. I would die first.

One begins to believe that she might have been talking about male intellectuals… the only type acknowledged in 1941… cos I know at least 4 with far less frustration to contend with that are hella more bitter than me and already went RedPill lite.

rv97
rv97
11 months ago

I wonder how one would stop problematic interpretations of religion, society and other philosophies that have since persisted? I think this is what’s going on and causing people to swallow the red pill so easily and treat women as lesser.

People think that such philosophies being self-evident in physicality is sufficient for explanation (like some transphobic Christian article I came across on stream.org that cited Walt Heyer against transitioning and the small ratio of non-binary sex people compared to those who have genitalia of a more conventional configuration).

I do hope it stops soon though.

Elimilech
Elimilech
11 months ago

Good game. One qualification, however: among Evangelical Christians, ‘egalitarian’ is code for ‘feminist-leaning’. Granted, alot of Christian egalitarians are still anti-abortion, but they are the most likely to be pro choice, support LGBT rights, support consent culture, etc.

Not all of them, of course, and most of them will be reactionary on some point of intersectionality, but they are the one subset of evangelical christians least likely to go red pill.

Nequam
Nequam
11 months ago

Unfortunately, I keep seeing that you can sing either title to the tune of “Who Wears Short Shorts?” and then things get ridiculous.

http://allthatsinteresting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/banned-picture-of-hitler1.jpg

Definitely not Steve
Definitely not Steve
11 months ago

Not-fun variant of the game: Could I Have Gone Red Pill?

I play this game sometimes, when I feel like experiencing a moment of pure existential terror.

Once upon a time, I had all sorts of characteristics that might lead one down the path of darkness: I had no social skills, I had low self-esteem (but an overly high view of my own intelligence), I was perpetually dateless and aggressively envious of others’ sexual success, and I looked down on lots of people for being different.

I even joined a Men Going Their Own Way Facebook group, but only because I thought the name was funny (“Hey, *I’m* a man, and I do quite like going my own way! What is this group about?”).

I’m… still not sure how I ended up never going down that path, or whether I would have realized my mistake and deconverted.

So there’s some introspection fuel.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Men who call women “females.”

Men who make sexist jokes, even if they don’t seem too virulent. Women can’t drive type of jokes.

Men who are paranoid about golddiggers.

Women who boast about not being like the other girls.

kupo
kupo
11 months ago

I’ve been doing a similar mental exercise (I don’t consider it a game, really) ever since #MeToo: would I be surprised to find out they’ve had a #MeToo allegation? It’s just a gut feeling: yes or no? And then once I get that answer, I ask myself, why or why not? What about their mannerisms makes me think they’re more or less likely to have sexually assaulted someone? Typically it comes down to boundaries and whether the person in question is respectful of them.

Naglfar
Naglfar
11 months ago

@Definitely Not Steve
It’s a good thing you didn’t fall down that rabbit hole—it’s a long way down and hard to get out. I’ve never done anything like that, but once when I was younger I stumbled across a NoFap forum and just found it very strange that grown adults believed that BS. Of course, it wasn’t as outrageous as the stuff we see on r/SemenRetention today, but it was still quite ridiculous.

@WWTH
To add:
Men who use the word “hypergamous” (historians excepted sometimes)
Men who are sexist but say it’s “ironic”
People who use the word “cuck” unironically
Men with weird ideas about semen

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
11 months ago

@kupo

It’s good to see you again!

Bananananana dakry: Short-Haired, Fat, and Deranged
Bananananana dakry: Short-Haired, Fat, and Deranged
11 months ago

People in general who only feel better about themselves as long as they have someone or some other demographic to keep crushed under themselves.

Leum
Leum
11 months ago

@Definitely Not Steve:

I also think I could easily have gone redpill and that it’s likely my saving grace was being attracted to men, not women. The redpill’s real power, imo, is that the main narrative our culture puts out about perpetually single/not-having-sex people is that they’re losers; the redpill offers a different narrative where the reason you’re not getting laid has nothing to do with you and is actually a giant conspiracy of women to withhold sex from you. Since humans are narrative-driven and the first narrative makes you feel like shit, the redpill’s alternative can be really attractive.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
11 months ago

Men who talk about a “dating market” and “sexual market value”

And also what “phase” I’m and that soon I’ll be past some “wall”

Ucalegont
Ucalegont
11 months ago

In Spain the term “red pill” hasn’t entered the mainstream; we call them fascists or far right.

I know two hit cases and a probable third one.

Number One I used to meet on my way to work. Once he brought up the topic of how desirable it would be to have a relationship with an underage girl. I thought he was joking, but he was serious: he would have liked to have sex with an underage girl. Later he told me he voted Vox, a new Spanish fascist party now on the rise.

Number Two is a German. Years ago we coincided at a language exchange. We had to teach German at that hour. There was a Moroccan lady who was struggling with the basics. He said: “do you want to go with her?”, with a gesture that expressed “do you want to ruin your hour by having to bear this old Muslim hag nobody wants to be with?” (I said of course and went with her). Years later I learned he was a staunch supporter of AfD.

Number Three I don’t know his vote, but I know his actions. He was a security guard, which is a job that makes people less tolerant and more violent. He was very bitter because his family life had failed: he had an estranged wife and two children that seemed to be going astray. I don’t know his share of responsibility in the situation, but he never admitted to having any. He had depression and once said: “I always go to bed wishing I don’t wake up the next day. But as long as I have to be in this world, I’ll cause as much trouble as I can”.
He had the hymn of the Confederacy in his mobile phone and played it to black kids. Once he said he had beaten a non-white very badly. In the end, some of the friends he had been making while on duty destroyed his car. He put a blanket on it and wrote “this has been done by a bunch of n*****s”.

Looking back, I notice I could have said or done more than I did.

Lastly, from experience, people on the margins of society are a breeding ground for fascist votes. Fascism thrives on inequality.

Definitely not Steve
Definitely not Steve
11 months ago

@Leum,

Oh boy, the trope of “you’re a loser if you don’t have sex” really fucked me up as a young’un. I really took to heart the message that you had to lose your virginity by the end of high school or you were forever hopeless (and the counter-message was mostly coming from the ultra-religious, which really didn’t help).

Stepping back from that psychological minefield, though, I have some contributions to the OP’s game.

If someone thinks that women existing in public is an invitation to ask them on dates, they’d probably go red pill.

If someone says they won’t go on any more dates unless the woman pays, they’d probably go red pill.

If someone constantly complains that women aren’t interested in him and seems to ascribe this to some vague conspiracy against him, then he might be heading down the wrong path.

The above may or may not describe someone I once knew.

Cindy
Cindy
11 months ago

Please tell me I’m not the only woman squicked out by some of the men here casually talking about how easily they could have gone red pill. 🤢

Zatar
Zatar
11 months ago

I also could have gone red pill really easily. I even liked the idea of MRA’s existing although I didn’t research them further. I’m honestly so relieved that I didn’t go down that rabbit hole or post online during that time. I’d like to think that I’d have seen what assholes the Manosphere was and that I wouldn’t have harassed anyone…….But I don’t know if that’s actually true.

Leum
Leum
11 months ago

I could have been redpilled easily because I was raised in a misogynistic culture that imparted certain attitudes to me about women. Most cis boys in the US are. Those attitudes were combined with a strong societal narrative (itself misogynistic as hell) that our worth was bound up with our ability to lose our virginity.

I could have been redpilled easily because the fringes of the redpill, the parts that hide the octane levels of misogyny that ultimately fuel it, are deliberately seductive for straight cis boys and men who have trouble finding or keeping sexual or romantic partners. The redpill doesn’t have to start with anything higher than a background level of misogyny that virtually every cis man who hasn’t interrogated himself will have. The fringes look like support groups, places where other people who share their problems can help them. It’s just that the help is actually more and more misogyny, not providing the support to find other ways of valuing themselves.

I got lucky in two ways. I was gay, and so inherently excluded from the narrative the redpill posed in my day (which was a lot less overt than its current form), and I stumbled into several feminist blogs that helped me realize how my views of women had been warped by my upbringing and culture. Yes, it’s scary that I could have been redpilled so easily, and I’m extremely grateful that I wasn’t.

Definitely not Steve
Definitely not Steve
11 months ago

@Cindy,

Could you elaborate on why you are uncomfortable with what’s being discussed?

I am certainly nowhere near the mindset of a manospherian now – it’s obvious to me that that is a horrific and anti-human mindset. But if I’m going to be honest with myself, many things that are obvious to me now were much less obvious to a younger, far less informed version of me.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
11 months ago

@Cindy, tbh I think all of us have been/are exposed to all kinds of bigotries in the society around us and most of us have some vulnerability – or at least some potential vulnerability – towards engaging with/being taken in by some of them, depending on our circumstances. As we’re lucky enough to be talking in this forum where bigotry gets very short shrift indeed and where anyone engaging in it will be massively outnumbered by those who won’t put up with it, maybe it’s not a bad thing to occasionally look at ourselves and our own internalised bigotries?

Me, as a child/young teenager I definitely used to go for the “not-like-other-girls” shtick and I can still find remnants of that attitude in my initial reactions to some things (not out loud, but still stuck in my brain).

I do agree that we shouldn’t indulge in this kind of that-could-have-been-me too often, though, or too much at length. It can turn into a kind of gloating, though fwiw I don’t think it has in this thread so far.

Alexis Filth
11 months ago

@David
I’m gonna play a round of this game on the next ep of my podcast (full credit given of course).
We’ll get a list of actors, musicians e.t.c and debate whether or not they go full red pill if exposed to the ideology.
http://www.violetwanderers.com if anyone’s interested in checking out our Queer hosted comedy podcast btw.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Cindy,

Yeah. Men just love to come here and share how they could join a hate group against women. It’s definitely uncomfortable to always hear about the slightest little thing can turn a man into a virulent misogynist.

Naglfar
Naglfar
11 months ago

@Alexis Filth
You need to talk about Keanu Reeves. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t, but you make the final call.

moregeekthan
moregeekthan
11 months ago

It is my belief that people aren’t innately good, we have to try to be good. (O am assuming this is a common belief.)

@Cindy, I am guessing this blog has a strong appeal to folks who have made a specific effort to “be good” in this area, to unlearn many of the poor lessons they absorbed growing up. But, yes, dwelling too much on “what a jerk I used to be” can certainly make folks uncomfortable in any context.

Getting back to David’s observation, I am sad I missed the chance to play the original “would they Nazi” game. Now the answer key has been revealed, and all I can do is shake my head at the results. Many folks (including friends and family) whom I would never have guessed would go Nazi have disappointed me greatly, though there have been some pleasant surprises.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
11 months ago

“Red Pill” encompasses far more than just misogyny, tho. It’s a fantasy that “EVERYTHING you see is fabricated, and malevolent forces are controlling society.”

There’s an unbroken line from MRA philosophy to Steven Miller’s “I know a ‘deep state’ action when I see one.”

Naglfar
Naglfar
11 months ago

@Weird Eddie

“Red Pill” encompasses far more than just misogyny, tho. It’s a fantasy that “EVERYTHING you see is fabricated, and malevolent forces are controlling society.”

The real irony of the whole thing is that malevolent forces are controlling society. But in reality, the “red pill” people are the bad guys, and their side is the malevolent force. Fascists are rising to power worldwide, and if that’s not a malevolent force I don’t know what is. The real situation is the exact inverse of what they think.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
11 months ago

@Cindy : I see “how easily I could have been redpilled” similar to “how easily I could have been a collaborator to the nazi” .

All the collaborators in my family were dead before I was of age to speak. But one thing I am certain of is that not all of them were senseless, cruel monsters. Some were just morally weak or in difficulty.

At some point you need to come to term with the fact while some people will be unflinching moral bastions, most aren’t. And it don’t mean thoses peoples are not human or not respectable at all. And maybe you personally is strong enough to be sure you would never turn the wrong way, I for one I am not so sure of myself.

Also, I know that at some point, I desesperatly wanted some kind of fantasy similar to the one the redpill sell to its devotees. The fantasy that I am special and only kept in check by a jealous society. The fantasy that the world is against me but I am special enough that it won’t break me.

Knowing your weakness is hard, but it’s also necessary because fascists aren’t intelligent or persuasive enough to endoctrinate people left and right. They target peoples when they are weak and seeking for a siren call.

BradMoonRising
BradMoonRising
11 months ago

I think someone’s opinion about the new Star Wars movies is a pretty good indicator.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
11 months ago

@Nagflar : yes and not. There isn’t a single force that control the society. it’s more like a pile of lazy and greedy individuals who each make the society a bit worse.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

To elaborate, it’s pretty telling about how alive and well patriarchy still is when feminist women are still expected to walk on eggshells, even when discussing the most horrific and violent misogyny, lest someone, somewhere interpret our words as man hating. Yet men still feel entirely comfortable discussing around women how only some circumstance, lucky coincidence or lack of opportunity stopped them from embracing an ideology that favors the complete subjugation of women.

Whether it’s meant to or not, it sends the message that women had better be careful, better be nice to men, because they’re all a bitter experience away from joining a hate group against us. It also signals that even the more feminist friendly of men seem to view it as the job of women to listen to and take care of men emotionally even when it harms us.

This may be a subject best kept among groups of men.

And if anyone thinks this take an overreaction, I’ve only started saying this once we got to about the 100th post where the conversation takes this turn.

dashapants
dashapants
11 months ago

@Cindy

Not at all. I rather think the opposite. It is good that so many people have had an experience like that.

My opinion is that ALL people should have experienced darker moments as children or young adults, perhaps when they join in taunting someone but realize it has gone too far and they are being needlessly cruel, or join a community only to notice how it is poisoning their daily experience.

A person who knows that they are capable of bad thought and behavior remains always on guard against it and is less easily swayed/broken by negative experiences later in life than somebody who utterly rejects the idea that they could ever go wrong and thereby opens themselves to the danger of always projecting their negative ideas (which obscures these actions from themselves), until it becomes very easy for them to say, “I am not nazi/racist/bigot/whatever , I did it because reasons/circumstances,” because if they are not the kind of person who does something bad, then obviously it’s the other people’s fault.

I think every person should be a little wary of themselves, and all these early “there but for the grace of gods go I” experiences facilitate that.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
11 months ago

@WWTH : I would note that it’s important to remember that you make it look like it’s only men who would easily fall into ideology that ask for the complete subjugation of women, but it’s wrong. Women fall into that almost as fast as men, and way more often than man-hating.

Generally speaking, it’s good to remember that racists hate minorities and opprimed group, *even*, and maybe *especially* if they are member of a minority. Racism isn’t hatred of the different, it’s hatred of the weak.

kupo
kupo
11 months ago

I’m 100% with Cindy and WWTH, here, and frankly tired of this discussion. Tired of defending myself for being horrified that men so casually discuss how they very easily could have joined a hate group against me.

Would you so casually state you probably would have joined the KKK had you stumbled across a convincing blog? That you would have joined the Proud Boys had you wandered into the wrong subreddit? That you would have become a full-on Nazi had you read a few too many alt-news sites? Would you do all those things on a blog dedicated to fighting systemic racism, and be confused when BIPOC got upset with you for it?

kupo
kupo
11 months ago

Dang, no edit link.

@Ohlmann
I’ve yet to see a woman on here pull this “there but for the grace of God” crap on this blog. Once it happens, then we’ll talk about the women who do it.

dashapants
dashapants
11 months ago

@WWTH

I don’t think these people are saying, “I am but one frustration away from turning on you all,” I think it’s more “I have realized how precarious social contract and basic human decency can be, so I try to be vigilant because I do not want to hurt myself or others.” The sharing of experiences is not meant to be an underlying warning, it’s meant as reassurance of sorts to themselves and to others.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Ohlmann,

I’m really fucking aware that women engage in internalized misogyny, often because they like white supremacy. But thanks ever so much for explaining that to me.

I’m not really sure why this means I can’t talk about an aspect of common male behavior that makes me uncomfortable.

I guess I’ll wait for you to mansplain more about how to feminist correctly so that I’ll understand.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
11 months ago

@Cindy

No you’re not the only one, this comes up from dudes here almost every time Red Pill/incels/etc. gets discussed. IDK what motivates it but I also find it exhausting and not very useful.

Re: the Who Goes Red Pill? game

The most reliable sign I’ve found, IME, is a person’s prior attitude towards racist/sexist jokes and insults. I am looking at a small sample size, but everyone I know who went in that direction had a prior history of making really creepy jokes and comments, and then covering their ass with “free speech”/”it’s just a joke”/concern trolling.

I don’t think any red flag is a guarantee one way or the other – that’s just one of the horrifying things about bigotry and totalitarian movements, you never know who will turn traitor. But IMO having a history of “not really serious” bigotry, and of generally being an edgelord, is a major factor. That kind of behavior is often where a person shows who they really are.

BradMoonRising
BradMoonRising
11 months ago

Dudes whose profile pics feature a dead fish, maybe? Also, dudes who wear sunglasses on the back of their head while indoors.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
11 months ago

I also am with Cindy, WWTH, kupo and Cyborgette. When men say they could have been or almost were red pill or some other misogynist it makes me feel like they’re saying that’s it’s really just normal to be that way and I’m supposed to bend over backwards to give them a prize and thank *them* for being so different. Like I’m supposed to give them their feminist cookie. It’s a close neighbor of NiceGuy(TM)-ism.

Naglfar
Naglfar
11 months ago

@Cyborgette

The most reliable sign I’ve found, IME, is a person’s prior attitude towards racist/sexist jokes and insults. I am looking at a small sample size, but everyone I know who went in that direction had a prior history of making really creepy jokes and comments, and then covering their ass with “free speech”/”it’s just a joke”/concern trolling.

I’d see that as a big red flag as well. I know several people who started out making edgy jokes before going full alt-right. Or maybe they were alt-right before but realized that it was more acceptable to make those “jokes” but not to openly espouse their views. Either way, I agree that that’s a huge red flag. The modern alt-right began with using supposed jokes as a means for plausible deniability, so they’ll still do it today.

Zatar
Zatar
11 months ago

If the discussion of whether or not I could have been red pilled or not is making people uncomfortable I’m more then willing to drop it.

Jennifer Wells
Jennifer Wells
11 months ago

I am a lurker.
I know this place.I would like to say that I have never seen such beauty when you take someone down.

My country is on fire. I am drunk

Thankyou David

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
11 months ago

I would like to quote WWTH’s entire post with a “fucking this”.

Friends who would like everyone to know that “there but for the grace of god go i”, trust us that we know.

We are all constantly aware that all of our allies are (apparently) but a youtube binge away from going full fascist. And if we weren’t, the people who post “sheesh, sure am lucky i didn’t have access to these internet sites when i was a kid, otherwise i’d be calling for the death of all hypergamous sluts who won’t have sex with me!!!” Sure do like to make it clear.

If you want a space to discuss how to better support boys and men so they don’t fall into what is a hate filled ideology, that’s a discussion we can have.

But all of the “bullet dodged, so lucky!!!!” Reinforces this:

Whether it’s meant to or not, it sends the message that women had better be careful, better be nice to men, because they’re all a bitter experience away from joining a hate group against us. It also signals that even the more feminist friendly of men seem to view it as the job of women to listen to and take care of men emotionally even when it harms us.

(From WWTH’s post above.)

rv97
rv97
11 months ago

@WWTH

How do you think those women would find both white supremacy and internalized misogyny appealing? To a minor extent, I think they are linked, but I can rather easily imagine my mother trying to enforce gender roles (even though they have mostly been shaped by Spanish colonizers) and deriding white people for their selfishness, weak family values, weak academic and work discipline and dependency on the government.

Could it be that ethnically white societies, especially since their adoption of Christianity, have become or been more gender conforming than societies that have historically not adopted Abrahamic religions?

I do believe there’s a link, because gender non-conforming white people are deemed to be a “threat” to the white race. I think there might be a link too in non-white communities, but I’m not as certain on this. If so, I do believe it’s probably as a result of either Christianity or Islam or something completely different, embraced by the natives or forced by the colonizers.

Otherwise I could be missing the point entirely, but I still think gender conformity in the form of internalized misogyny should be combatted. I am someone though who envied white people on occasion (and occasionally still does) because I felt like they were freer to express themselves in an environment where religion seemed less significant – there’s a lot of gender policing in non-white communities too, as a result of religion and historical attitudes forced upon ethnic minority communities.

Naglfar
Naglfar
11 months ago

@Rhuu

If you want a space to discuss how to better support boys and men so they don’t fall into what is a hate filled ideology, that’s a discussion we can have.

That is a discussion worth having. The problem, I feel, is that when people have this discussion it seems like it always ends with “women need to do x, y, and z to prevent men from becoming hateful fascists.” I feel that men need to do more to prevent other men and boys from falling down that rabbit hole. That’s not to say women can’t play a part in the solution, but that it seems that too often, as in other areas, women are expected to do the brunt of the labor.

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