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“Gender Critical” Redditors attack a trans woman for the crime of wanting to be pretty

Presumably the TERFs will be picketing this store next

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By David Futrelle

Over on the “Gender Critical” subreddit — the most popular hangout for Reddit’s Trans-Excluding Radical Feminists (TERFs) — the regulars are getting good and mad at an unnamed trans women because she said in a video that she wanted to look pretty.

“I just watched a video of a TIM explaining his reasons for facial feminization surgery,” wrote tihozitje, using the TERFy term TIM (Trans-Identified Male) for the trans woman in question

It all boils down to him wanting to look/feel “beautiful”.

The horror. A human being wanting to look attractive. Who ever heard of such an affront to reason and decency?

He said that he was always jealous of the fact that “girls got to look pretty” and that the possibilty of an insurance covering his ffs made him pursue transitioning.

No one transitions because their insurance covers it; they transition because they’re trans — though insurance coverage can determine what surgeries they can and cannot afford.

This man is objectively very unattractive as a man or as a “woman”.

So the crux of the argument is that ugly people should remain ugly, at least if they’re trans? That’s not a “critical” stance; it’s just sort of mean.

It just bothers me so much that these TIMs see womenhood as looking beautiful.

Someone wanting to look good after their transition does not mean that they “see womanhood as looking beautiful”

An “ugly” woman is as much of a woman as any other. I’m tired of having women’s value be determined by their looks.

Well, take that up with society; don’t take your resentment out on a trans woman who’s honestly just hoping to look a little more feminine.

All of this shows how TIMs are truly the biggest sexists.

Well, no. But it does show how petty and spiteful some TERFs can get when faced with a trans woman simply trying to live her best life.

Tihozitje’s post got nearly 250 upvotes and inspired dozens of comments, nearly all of them in agreement with her stance.

“TIMs are the ultimate misogynists,” wrote OmnibusToken..

“They reduce women to makeup and dresses and a ‘feeling,'” added feministdreamer. “We’re not human beings to them at all. It’s sickening.”

Another commenter suggested that trans women just accept that they’re really men — and improve their appearances by hitting the gym and maybe buying themselves a toupee.

Why don’t these stupid idiots work out, wear a toupee, take care of their skin, get some nice clothes and cologne, etc. if they want to look nice?

Still others took a certain pleasure in the notion that nothing this allegedly ugly trans woman could do would actually make her pretty in the end.

“[T]hese men will never be ‘pretty girls,”” wrote wehurrytoourdeaths.

Never. Ugly men in a dress are still ugly men. They will never pass.

Added Arie_r:

These men think that because they don’t look like the top 5% men that they’ll have better luck as women. In reality, if they do transition, they’ll be at the bottom of the barrel of women when it comes to dating because very few people are interested in dating trans people, let alone a non-passing TiM. They might more easily find sex from other males but they will not find a committed loving relationship with someone of their choosing.

Outside of the manosphere itself, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a movement so motivated by spite as “Gender Critical” feminism.

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Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

“We’re not human beings to them at all. It’s sickening.”

Umm…projection much? I don’t think TERFs view trans people as human beings.

An “ugly” woman is as much of a woman as any other. I’m tired of having women’s value be determined by their looks.

So…their argument is that ugly women are women, but this trans woman that they find ugly is not passing and therefore not a woman? Interesting.
I doubt they’d attack a cis woman for getting facial plastic surgery. And cis women make up the vast majority of plastic surgery patients in America (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

Definitely not Steve
Definitely not Steve
1 year ago

It’s no wonder TERFs find so much common ground with actual factual Nazis.

Sylvia Daniella Foxglove

FARTS have always been well known for their enormous cognitive dissonance. Facts will not dissuade them, and they will gladly bash any trans person for being ugly, and then say that beauty does not make someone a woman. I’ve even shown pictures of bald woman with the same bald pattern I have to show that my baldness doesnt make me less of a woman. Nope, no intellectual honesty at all. I mean, I would love to be pretty, and will use my gender affirmative surgeries to make me look closer to the way i want to look. And i know they will never accept me, even if i was gorgeous and somehow managed to transition in my teens back in the 90s. Nor will they understand how it all works. They are just in it to have a group they can hate to make themselves feel better.*shrugs*

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Definitely Not Steve
Another thing they’ve got in common with Nazis is antisemitic conspiracy theories. A significant number of TERFs claim that trans people and transition are a conspiracy by the pharmaceuticals industry to sell blockers and hormones. And of course, according to them it is all orchestrated by every Nazi’s favorite scapegoat.
They would really hate me as a Jewish trans* woman.

This also reminds me quite a bit of how MGTOWs hate it when women wear makeup.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 year ago

I can barely type this upsets me so much. These people are being so unnecessarily nasty and cruel about something that goes to the core of my soul.

Wanting to look a way that makes you happy and makes you feel good is NOT the same thing as saying that’s what defines you!!!

To “wehurrytoourdeaths” if anyone of any gender wants to feel good about how they look yes they can and if that person is a woman and she wants to be pretty by whatever standard she can be.

Yes I get it that beauty standards have been used by men to hurt women in patriarchial societies but I will always find joy in feeling beautiful and sexy and that’s my creativity and I love when I play even the smallest role in some other woman especially feel that way and yes you TERF jerks it’s any woman.

Sorry for the rant but I feel really strongly about this.

I had too much of a beautiful set of experiences this weekend to let anything negative change my energy whether my little issue yesterday which I think is going to be ok or reading what these jerks say.

But thank you David for bringing these jerks and their cruel bullshit to light.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 year ago

I dig how they call us “the ultimate misogynists” while openly working with Christian Dominionists and literal Nazis. I mean, I’m often exasperated by the level of misogyny and gender policing in trans fem communities, but this is a whole other level of hypocrisy and doubletalk.

@Naglfar

Their embracing antisemitism shouldn’t surprise anyone, really. It shares almost the exact same kind of conspiracy and scapegoat based thinking, as opposed to the systems thinking actually required to understand power structures. IMO TERFism is pseudo-antisexism the same way that antisemitism is pseudo-anticapitalism, and it serves the same purpose – it directs collective anger away from the powerful and towards disempowered minorities.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

These men think that because they don’t look like the top 5% men that they’ll have better luck as women. In reality, if they do transition, they’ll be at the bottom of the barrel of women when it comes to dating because very few people are interested in dating trans people, let alone a non-passing TiM.

Do they think that pre-transitioning trans women don’t already know that a lot of people say they aren’t willing to date trans people? The notion that trans women are all just incel men who are doing it to get dates is just bizarre.

Also, transphobia like that on display in that reddit thread is a big part of why trans women feel even more pressure than cis women to go to great lengths to meet standards of beauty – and it’s already enormous pressure that cis women are subjected to, so that’s a lot. Pretty hypocritical to complain about trans women having male looking features and then complain about trans women trying to get rid of male looking features.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Cyborgette

Their embracing antisemitism shouldn’t surprise anyone, really. It shares almost the exact same kind of conspiracy and scapegoat based thinking, as opposed to the systems thinking actually required to understand power structures. IMO TERFism is pseudo-antisexism the same way that antisemitism is pseudo-anticapitalism, and it serves the same purpose – it directs collective anger away from the powerful and towards disempowered minorities.

It doesn’t surprise me either, seeing how willing they are to hang out with Nazis. Jews and trans people are, like you said, convenient targets that are easier to attack than the real problems. I’ve seen TERFs working with Nazis but I haven’t seen any working with dominionists yet personally. Doesn’t surprise me in the least though.

I wonder how many TERF heads would explode if they realized that there are at least 3 (maybe more?) Jewish trans commenters here.

@WWTH

Pretty hypocritical to complain about trans women having male looking features and then complain about trans women trying to get rid of male looking features.

It reminds me of the assorted misogynists complaining that women are ugly, then complaining that women use makeup to look better. It creates a no-win situation, and that’s what the bigots want. Yet again, TERFs sound like incels.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 year ago

@Naglfar

It reminds me of the assorted misogynists complaining that women are ugly, then complaining that women use makeup to look better. It creates a no-win situation, and that’s what the bigots want.

Which is not what they are going to get and which is why they can fuck off while I welcome and make our salon’s clients comfortable and happy when they visit us to look and feel damn gorgeous.

Definitely not Steve
Definitely not Steve
1 year ago

@Naglfar:

I wonder how many TERF heads would explode if they realized that there are at least 3 (maybe more?) Jewish trans commenters here.

No doubt you are just plants on the payroll of the global Zionist cabal, infiltrating our spaces to convince us that trans women can be decent, ordinary people.

Well it won’t work on me! I’m onto you!

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
1 year ago

They never grew out of the mean student mentality.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved

Which is not what they are going to get and which is why they can fuck off while I welcome and make our salon’s clients comfortable and happy when they visit us to look and feel damn gorgeous.

Keep it up. Every step we make towards subverting TERFs/patriarchy/Nazis/other oppressors counts.

@Definitely Not Steve

No doubt you are just plants on the payroll of the global Zionist cabal, infiltrating our spaces to convince us that trans women can be decent, ordinary people.

Well it won’t work on me! I’m onto you!

Dammit, they’re onto us! Abort, abort!…I mean, aren’t we all already being bankrolled by the International Zio-Feminist Conspiracy here anyway? /s

So, general trans question: I see some people write the word “trans” with an asterisk (*), but others do not. What does the asterisk signify, and should I use it?

Definitely not Steve
Definitely not Steve
1 year ago

@Naglfar re: the asterisk

My understanding mostly comes from Crip Dyke, who explains the history of the asterisk and its intention to stand in for both transgender and transsexual here (hope she doesn’t mind me linking) [Link disrupted to confuse the Kraken]:

freethoughtblogs [dot] com/pharyngula/2012/07/10/you-want-to-see-bullying/comment-page-1/#comment-393220

To my understanding, “transsexual” is an ever-evolving word these days, so by proxy the asterisk has ever-evolving usefulness. I have also seen others use “trans*” to mean inclusively “trans-man” or “trans-woman,” though again – evolving language. Whether and in what context you use the asterisk, it is unlikely to offend, so you may use your own judgment.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 year ago

@Naglfar

Thank you and you keep it up too!
We have to resist and subvert. I try but I struggle a lot with being a feminist but not only working in the beauty industry but liking what I do. A lot. I know that’s problematic big-time for obvious reasons. We have a client who’s really important and spends a lot of money with us and really likes me and comes to see my outfits even when she doesn’t have an appointment and tips me but although she’s never said it to me I once overheard her say something I thought was a nasty transphobic comment. And cis women say cruel things about each other’s appearance behind each other’s backs in salons and well everywhere and the workplaces culture kind of supports that sometimes. So I struggle with what I do but I think you can still always resist and that goes for my art whether it’s at work or in my BDSM social group because I consider just being there and having the relationship there I’m building resisting what oppressors say I have to do and be.

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
1 year ago

And cis women make up the vast majority of plastic surgery patients in America (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

Given that women are having more than five times the plastic surgery that men are having, I think that maybe there is something wrong? Numbers of cosmetic procedures by women keep increasing, while they’ve actually decreased for men in the past couple of years. Eating disorders are increasing, too. Back when I was a budding 13-year-old feminist with my own eating disorder, I would have been disheartened if I’d known that the future would bring no relief from unrealistic beauty standards.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Definitely Not Steve
Thank you for the link. And thank you to Crip Dyke for the explanation. Regular expressions are something I understand, so that helps me put it in perspective. I’ll use the asterisk when writing if I remember, but I doubt I’d use it while speaking since it sounds strange to say out loud.

Regarding confusing the Kraken, have you tried embedding them with other words? If you select text then press the “link” button and enter your link in the dialogue box it will turn that text into a link and possibly let it through. Or the old fashioned way of typing out <a href=”link goes here“>text goes here</a>
That’s just a suggestion, but it could help with links in the future.

@LindsayIrene

Given that women are having more than five times the plastic surgery that men are having, I think that maybe there is something wrong?

What I meant was to clarify that I wasn’t trying to shame women who get surgery, not that our culture doesn’t have issues with body images and standard. We definitely do have issues, and that is a problem. I could have phrased that better. Sorry, and thank you for pointing out my error.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

the possibilty of an insurance covering his ffs made him pursue transitioning

Shit, is that how that works? Oh, that’s bad news for me. I live in Canada, so technically my “insurance” covers the vast majority of medical procedures.

I guess I need to go pursue getting an appendectomy and a bunch of other procedures, since, you know, it’s covered.

It’s not that people get medical procedures done because they have a need for them, certainly not. /sarcasm

Victorious Parasol
1 year ago

Given the current state of things, I don’t understand why some people have to make other people feel bad for trying to be a better version of themselves.

Lainy
Lainy
1 year ago

Well that was almost extremely painful to read. These people really want everyone to follow their gender roles don’t they.

Robert
Robert
1 year ago

I’ve long noticed the persistent allegation from lesbian FARTs that trans women are really straight men trying to jump their Sapphic bones.

It’s like a mirror image of the fear of some transphobic cis straight men that trans women are really gay men trying to jump their manly-man bones.

They can’t both be right, yet they seem to see each other as allies in the war against the Evil Empire. The interplay on Reddit between r/JBP and r/GenderCritical is quite an unpleasant sight.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Robert

The interplay on Reddit between r/JBP and r/GenderCritical is quite an unpleasant sight.

Do they cross post a lot? It wouldn’t surprise me, but it’s just surreal how much cognitive dissonance can live in a TERF’s head.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
1 year ago

OT: Hallmark has reversed its stupid decision and apologized.

Catriona
Catriona
1 year ago

TERFs continually play the victim because our personal autonomy has nothing to do with them. As if what we choose to do with our own bodies is subject to their approval, and we’re crossing a line by existing outside of their control.

I think we can all readily think of another group that that sounds like, and it begins and ends with the very name they love to call us.

Dreidl
Dreidl
1 year ago

I dunno, as a transguy I love being a TIM (Trans-Identified Male). And unfortunately, in my experience, many of my transmasculine bros sound sexist (or TERFy): “ “They reduce women to makeup and dresses and a ‘feeling,’” “

Although I’ll say transguys don’t seem to be objectifying and putting down fem people as much as we used to. Perhaps because we can access transition care earlier, so have to deal less with being misperceived as the girls we aren’t?

CarrieV
CarrieV
1 year ago

These TERFs sound suspiciously quite a bit like guys/incels/reddit twerps pretending to be feminists. But yeah, I know there are also *actual* women-purporting-to-be-feminists who claim to exclude Transwomen* from womanhood too.

Yet a big part of me thinks of the times I’ve found men pretending to be feminists and/or women, whites pretending to be Blacks, and trumpkins pretending to be lefties online, all to malign the group they’re pretending to be part of. RooshV (remember him???) was behind Operation Lollipop if I remember correctly?

Amtep
Amtep
1 year ago

I’ve never heard a real feminist say the phrase “objectively very unattractive”.

It seems they believe in patriarchal beauty standards so much that they’ve raised them to the status of objective truth.

NautaliaC
NautaliaC
1 year ago

These Redditers’ comments were upsetting to me more than most posted on WHTM, though that might be the time of night I read David’s post.

It’s led me to ask myself a question, what in the world is it like to be shackled to your sheer hatred of one (or multiple, knowing TERFs connections with the alt-right) group. Does their fear of trans* (thanks for the question about this, Naglfar and the explanation, Crip Dyke) people give them security in some way? I mean… obviously, no.

I’ve never lived like that in my life. I can’t empathize with irrational hatred like this.

Outside of the manosphere itself, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a movement so motivated by spite as “Gender Critical” feminism.

I haven’t met an actual TERF in person, or at least I don’t think I have. I wonder what happened to them to be so full of spite. It must have been the stuff of legends to “legitimize” their fear, discomfort and hatred.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Amtep

I’ve never heard a real feminist say the phrase “objectively very unattractive”.

Nor have I. I’ve also never met a real feminist who was anywhere near this hateful, or a real feminist with this distorted of a view.

@NautaliaC

what in the world is it like to be shackled to your sheer hatred of one (or multiple, knowing TERFs connections with the alt-right) group. Does their fear of trans* (thanks for the question about this, Naglfar and the explanation, Crip Dyke) people give them security in some way? I mean… obviously, no.

I’ve wondered that myself, both in relation to TERFs and other groups. I’m guessing that by hating one or more groups it gives them something to blame their problems on so they don’t have to look for the real causes. It’s easier to blame a minority than to take on real causes.

Universal Kami
Universal Kami
1 year ago

@Naglfar

I personally use the asterisk because to me it includes non-binary genders, too.

Sheila Crosby
1 year ago

For what it’s worth, I think everyonbe should be able to spend as much or as little time and effort as they want on whatever appearance they want. Nobody of either sex or gender should have their arm twisted either way. That seems to me to be the ideal.

Hoo boy are we a long way away from that ideal, but I still think that’s what we should be aiming for.

It’s the TERFs that push the idea that butch looking women must be trans* and therefore “obviously” a threat, so they’re pushing cis and trans women into looking femme as much or more than the patriarchy does. I’m half expecting some of the splash damage to come my way. Not a huge deal compared to what other people suffer from it, I know, by it’s the direct opposite of what they say they want.

Universal Kami
Universal Kami
1 year ago

@NautaliaC

They’re like some manosphereans.
They’ll act all polite and accepting, but post stuff like this when they get home.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Universal Kami

I personally use the asterisk because to me it includes non-binary genders, too.

That’s another good reason to use it.

They’ll act all polite and accepting, but post stuff like this when they get home.

The TERFs I’ve had the misfortune of meeting were good enough at hiding it unless it came up in conversation, then they wouldn’t shut up about “TRAs” (how they refer to trans* activists to try to make them sound like MRAs) and how they think that trans* people endanger women and children. They also have an obsession with certain words. It varies, but “autogynephilic” is the current favorite.

@Sheila Crosby

It’s the TERFs that push the idea that butch looking women must be trans* and therefore “obviously” a threat, so they’re pushing cis and trans women into looking femme as much or more than the patriarchy does.

TERFs really do have it in for butch cis women. My guess is because the TERFs can’t tell their gender visually as easily. Of course, actual feminists would want women to be ok with looking all different ways, but as we’ve established TERFs are feminists about as much as Jordan Peterson is.

It’s also ironic that they say that women shouldn’t have to look a certain way, then get upset when women don’t look like they want.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 year ago

I recall a piece I read about southern European immigrants early in the 20th Century;. “they dress themselves, shave, learn English to the best of their limited ability. These [people] will never be Americans…”

The critical argument is hypocrisy. The trans woman is criticized because the “are-ness” of being a woman isn’t being met according to their standards, and her transition “reduces ‘woman’ to clothes, makeup, etc.”

The standards the critics tout LITERALLY reduce “woman” to genetic code and nothing else. (I guess if you’re genetic code isn’t specific enough, you just don’t exist at all, regardless of your presentation)

No, “being a woman” isn’t JUST a feeling, but that’s a much larger component than DNA

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 year ago

@SheilaCrosby

For what it’s worth, I think everyonbe should be able to spend as much or as little time and effort as they want on whatever appearance they want. Nobody of either sex or gender should have their arm twisted either way. That seems to me to be the ideal.

I agree, very much. I am realistic though and know that with what I do it’s not that simple because the beauty industry is all tied up with capitalism and I struggle knowing that like with the tips that I take and knowing that some wealthy women who are clients and rave over me are doing it in part because they see me as a symbol that can be used to implicitly force standards on others. But I also know what I believe and think myself and know there’s lots I can do to resist.

And then there’s parts of the beauty industry that people don’t usually think of when they talk about it like how in really good cosmetology school stylists take anatomy. It’s maybe not full anatomy like in medical school, ok, but I mean its real anatomy and physiology because they are supposed to be able to recognize things about a client’s hair or scalp that shows they should recommend they see their dermatologist or regular doctor. I mean they’re not diagnosing but it’s their responsibility to screen and think about health as well as aesthetics. I’m talking about our stylists at our salon and full disclosure I’m not one and just the hostess but I feel like this is another area where because it’s mostly women or a cis woman profession the serious part with knowledge and creativity is downplayed.

I’m not saying the beauty industry overall isn’t all tied up with patriarchy but just that there are other things I think about too. And we can resist our oppressors and would-be oppressors by defying their expectations.

I feel that way about my joy I get from the creative part of my BDSM/fetish social group because of the people who know me and see me at work where I am so attentive to everyone and they say “oh she’s so sweet” only the ones who really get me and what creativity means to me can get why I love femdom and how and why I love that expression in my BDSM social group. So this cis woman’s identity is as complex as any gender but I guess that makes sense because gender is individual and should be. But we have to fight against people who tell us that’s not true and instead they get to control it.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Weird Eddie

The trans woman is criticized because the “are-ness” of being a woman isn’t being met according to their standards, and her transition “reduces ‘woman’ to clothes, makeup, etc.”

Another favorite TERF argument is that they claim not to care if people of any gender want to do activities of another gender, but I know that they don’t actually believe this. If they believed that, they wouldn’t get this upset when someone wants to be beautiful. I’ve seen TERFs throw tantrums over any sort of gender non conformity, often to a similar degree as religious fundamentalists. For example, when M. K. Fain had a meltdown over Sam Smith wearing a dress, claiming that it was ok to be gender non conforming, but that wearing said dress was “appropriating femininity”.

Speaking of which: Everyone remember that TERF or Incel Quiz? Some ideas for follow up quizzes that someone could make:
TERF or religious fundamentalist
TERF or neo-Nazi (optionally could replace white supremacist references to racial or ethnic groups with the ways TERFs refer to trans people, both TERFs and Nazis like to talk about “replacement” a lot, just by different groups)

Katamount
1 year ago

Ahh, TERFs. I’ve tried to wrap my brain around the TERF mindset (probably not the most healthy of pastimes, I know) and there’s one TERF blog that I sometimes make use of toward that end. It’s not Meghan Murphy’s Feminist Current, but it’s a blog I came across when looking for progressive Canadian political blogs. The site progressiveblogs.ca keeps on its blogroll Dead Wild Roses, an Albertan TERF who reposts TERF screeds more often than she blogs about Albertan provincial politics. And the stuff she reposts is nearly always the same kind of condescending pseudo-intellectual nonsense that claims to “dismantle” the “ideology” of transactivists. It varies between dismissive and outright hostile, but it never fails to come off as post-hoc rationalizations of simple disgust meant to gatekeep the concept of “womanhood”. Red meat for the TERF base, essentially.

Gender is not one of those things that is meant to be gatekept. People sure try, of course, be they overly-macho dude-bro types or your textbook TERF. But just like the overly-macho guy admonishing “soy boys” from behind a keyboard, gatekeeping any gender comes off as a sign of deep insecurity, particularly with respect to one’s identity. If you’re going through life upset that other people are doing “gender” wrong, just seems self-defeating to me. People are going to experiment with gender. Some will confirm to the broad trends, some will do something all their own. That they put so much energy into their gatekeeping (I’ve seen the lengths they go) just flabbergasts me.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Katamount

But just like the overly-macho guy admonishing “soy boys” from behind a keyboard, gatekeeping any gender comes off as a sign of deep insecurity, particularly with respect to one’s identity.

I do think many TERFs are insecure. Sort of like how the white nationalists are very insecure about themselves and project their insecurities onto their enemies. Of course, despite claiming to be feminists we all know that TERFs have more in common with toxically masculine keyboard warriors than any actual feminists.

I tried reading Meghan Murphy before. She contradicts herself a lot and makes weird leaps of logic, which makes her hard to follow. When I feel masochistic, I read TERF screeds and hone my skills at coming up with rebuttals. I’ve thought about making a blog where I rebut TERF arguments, but I don’t have the time. Though, there’s always the future.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
1 year ago

My husband said something about Caitlin Jenner, awhile back, that really disappointed me. This gist of his remark was, why did she wait until she was in her sixties to transition? My response was, why should her age be a concern? I don’t remember his answer word for word, but what it boiled down to was, Who’d want to be an elderly woman, why bother, what’s the point?

I found this insulting. I said, so, once a woman’s past a certain age, we are irrelevant and worthless? Sarcastically, I asked him to please let me know just when I’d reached that age, so I could bow out gracefully, with a suicide.

I was surprised and disappointed by his attitude. He’s for the most part tolerant and liberal.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Dormousing_it
Did you point out that she transitioned in her 60s because she couldn’t transition earlier? A lot of people for social or financial reasons wait to transition.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
1 year ago

@Naglfar:

No, I didn’t. That did cross my mind. Maybe I should have mentioned it to him. I realize there are lots of reasons why people who want to, can’t

epitome of incomprehensibility

@Sylvia Daniella Foxglove –

FARTS have always been well known for their enormous cognitive dissonance. Facts will not dissuade them, and they will gladly bash any trans person for being ugly, and then say that beauty does not make someone a woman.

Well said. They’re just creating a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” scenario. I just wish we lived in a world where no one listened to them.

To the original:

It just bothers me so much that these TIMs see womenhood as looking beautiful.

This is the only part that seems to have some point to it, but it’s all twisted. Obviously, reducing women to their appearance is a problem – but not one that trans women started. And having a look you want for yourself doesn’t mean you want everyone to look like you.

What’s the fear here, that trans women are trying to influence cis women’s appearance? The horror!

Oh, oh, but it’s true! It’s already happening. One of the writers I follow on Twitter has (had?) glasses in a style I liked, and then I went out and bought similar ones.* She’s trans, I’m cis, so obviously there’s a conspiracy here and I’m being seduced back to patriarchal beauty standards by the enemy.

/s, of course, but is that really how TERFs think?? :C

*coloured metal frames, slight cat-eye, if anyone cares 🙂

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 year ago

They sure know how very well to hit on my insecurities. And I sort-of guess, the insecurities of a lot of people with gender dysphoria.

While that’s entirely a wild guess, I feel a bit of the same vibe from TERFs than from thoses super anti-gay preachers revealed later to have employed male prostitutes. In some way, I have the impressions thoses people drip with envy.

Then again, maybe I just detect the fact they are hypocritical haters. Hard to make the difference.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@EoI

Obviously, reducing women to their appearance is a problem – but not one that trans women started.

I might note, the TERFs seem to be doing quite a bit of reducing, both of cis women and trans* women based on appearance. For example, their insistence that cis women present very feminine and their outright disdain for butch women. Or the fact that their biggest attack strategy for the woman they are discussing was to make a bunch of ad hominem attacks calling her ugly. If they don’t want women to be reduced to their appearances, the TERFs all need to take a good look in the mirror to see where the problem lies.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
1 year ago

Like Dormousing_it

I said, so, once a woman’s past a certain age, we are irrelevant and worthless?

Good point and good way of challenging that.

Even if someone did try to rate worth on the basis of appearance and conventional attractiveness standards I know and see *lots* cis women including some in their 80s who more than exceed those standards. I know it’s true though that it’s easier because they are in priveleged socio-economic positions and can afford it.

But the problem anyway is rating people’s basic worth as humans by any appearance!! That so upsets me about a lot cis guy friends I have. They can’t get that even if I am absolutely not attracted to them sexually that doesn’t equate to me disvaluing them as people!! That’s where so much Niceguy “friendzone” bullshit comes from. So don’t get so fucking mad that I’m not “giving you a chance” you know? If you were really a friend you would know and see I value you for that.

steevee
steevee
1 year ago

I thought feminism was supposed to be about challenging narrow standards of beauty (and in some of its more radical forms, the idea of beauty itself.) So how can anyone claiming to be a radical feminist mock someone for looking “objectionably unattractive” and base so much of their idea of what it means to be a woman on whether someone fits their (narrower than most cis men’s) idea of how she’s supposed to look? Of course, TERFs are numb to their own hypocrisy.

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 year ago

@Dormousing_It

I don’t remember his answer word for word, but what it boiled down to was, Who’d want to be an elderly woman, why bother, what’s the point?

Sure and who’d want to be an elderly man? Mostly nobody really wants to be old, per se, it’s just better than the alternative.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Dalillama
I don’t want to be old, but I’d much rather be an old person of the gender I identify as (an old woman) than the opposite.

Betrayer
Betrayer
1 year ago

In related news, Graham Linehan created his own little twitter clone where he can be a bigot without getting ratio’d, and one of the first things he did was mock a cis woman for getting plastic surgery and make hateful comments about her appearance and denigrating the very concept of cosmetic surgery.

Hopefully some of his TERF fans will begin to realize that Graham is a misogynist who learned he can get away with hating women if he mostly targets trans women. Some of them, however, were agreeing with him because TERFs are reactionaries who oppose bodily autonomy, even for cis people.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Betrayer
I saw that. It’ll have to compete with M. K. Fain’s Spinster, a spin-off of Gab for TERFs (and Nazis are welcome too, this being Gab). He actually mentioned Spinster in a release note.

Hopefully some of his TERF fans will begin to realize that Graham is a misogynist who learned he can get away with hating women if he mostly targets trans women.

I doubt that will happen. It would 1) require some degree of self-awareness, which TERFs lack, and 2) TERFs are hanging out with literal Nazis that they’ve bonded with over their hatred of trans* and gender nonconforming people. The fact that Nazis are misogynists doesn’t trouble them at all, so I doubt Graham’s misogyny will either. Plus, TERFs are misogynists as well. They hate cis women that don’t conform to their standards (such as butch women and women who don’t follow stereotypical gender expressions and roles).

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

(Continued)
Out of masochism, I checked Graham’s twitter feed. Of course, in order to cover up his true purpose he pulled the tactic of projection: claiming in the announcement that Twitter is run by “woman-hating incels.” Which, I would imagine, are going to be one of the main groups using his new clone, and with TERFs and Nazis.

I was going to see what he’s posting on Glindr, but it requires an account and I didn’t want to create one just to hate read TERF bullshit.