By David Futrelle
Two days ago, a young Men’s Rights Redditor called PropaneElephant decided to “commemorate” the 30th anniversary of the École Polytechnique Massacre in a uniquely MRA-ish manner: by typing out a screed demanding to know why he, as a man, should give a shit about female engineers.
“First,” he began,
I would like to take a moment to commemorate the fatal event that occurred 30 years ago on this day, the École Polytechnique Massacre.
Normally, when someone makes a statement like this, you can assume that they’re talking about commemorating the victims of the shooting, 14 female students at an engineering school. But it quickly becomes clear that Mr. Elephant’s views are closer to those of the killer, who targeted female engineering students in an attempt to strike a blow against feminism.
After getting the “commemoration” out of the way, Mr. Elephant launches an attack on one of his teachers who used the anniversary of the tragedy to make broader points about the discrimination that women going into mostly male fields like engineering have faced over the years.
Today, one of my teachers decided to bring up this topic by having us create a list of jobs that women wouldn’t typically do, then showing us a video of women working in the engineering field. The point of her lesson was to show us the stereotypical ideology that women were unsuitable for certain jobs back in the day, and how that has transformed into women working in higher level jobs nowadays.
But apparently Mr. Elephant felt that this discussion of women in engineering was deeply flawed because it had too many women in it.
The video was discouraging, it felt like a punch in the face. There were women, and only women. Women, women, women. Women’s rights, women are being paid less than men, women should become engineers. Why would I, a man, want to care about female engineers?
As I read this, I thought about the extraordinary failure of empathy required to type out this last sentence on the anniversary of the cold-blooded murder of fourteen female engineering students.
I also thought about the number of times I’ve seen MRAs indignantly ask what feminism has ever done for men — and then dismissing every example given to them showing exactly what feminism has done for men. I thought about the feminist friend of mine who volunteers at a rape crisis center that serves those of all genders; I thought of the feminists I know who work at domestic violence shelters that provide shelter and service not only for women but also for men fleeing female abusers. I then thought about the giant pile of nothing that MRAs have offered both of these groups of men in crisis.
Back to Mr Elephant, still ranting:
Instead of forcing feminism upon us and telling young girls to become engineers simply because they’re a woman, scrap the idea of talking about equality on school grounds entirely, or talk about equality instead.
Huh. Stop talking about equality and talk about equality? Has Mr Elephant simply lost the plot altogether?
Women are being given too many advantages over men. There are women’s programs that give scholarships to only women and organizations that unnecessarily discuss gender equality issues that don’t exist anymore.
Dude, you’re madder about being “forced” to watch a short film on female engineers than you are about the man who murdered fourteen future female engineers, so obviously there are still “gender equality issues” in the world.
And my teacher didn’t stop there. She then had us make a list of jobs that men wouldn’t do and showed us a video of men working as nurses. What the fuck? You’re telling all girls in the class to aim higher and telling us to aim lower? How does that solve anything?
Er, dude, the point was to get you to ask yourself why jobs in fields that are mostly female tend to pay less than jobs in fields that are mostly male But evidently this is too much for the big brained Mr Elephant, who sees the exercise only as a sneaky feminist attempt to get men to “aim lower.”
Showing us a video of all the innocent women murdered 30 years ago and then showing us a video to promote engineering? That contradicts. Why do you think women would want to work in engineering after you show us a video about the women who were killed for that reason? And besides, people don’t openly discriminate against women that much nowadays.
Once again the whole point of the exercise whooshes right over Mr. Elephant’s head.
After a paragraph complaining similarly about an anti-bullying video shown in class on another occasion, Mr. Elephant wrapped up his rant:
In short, avoid talking about discrimination in school as it makes certain groups look better than others. Focus on equality instead.
Stop talking about equality and talk about equality!
Forget the past, it only makes people feel worse.
A “history is bunk” for our time.
Mr Elephant’s post received, naturally, dozens of upvotes and zero criticism from the Men’s Rights crowd on Reddit.
Well, maybe one bit of mild criticism: One commenter suggested that Mr Elephant had been wrong to suggest that stereotypes of women as unsuited for careers like engineering are a thing of the past. Because the commenter, right this minute, thinks that this stereotype in indeed true:
“Women are still unsuitable for certain jobs,” he wrote
This is why we have to listen to all this bullshit about how we have to change STEM so that women will be able to work there, instead of women just doing the damn job. Stereotypes are usually accurate.
Yeah, not so much — though stereotypes about Men’s Rights Activists being angry, narcissistic man-babies are certainly more accurate than most, as Mr. Elephant’s post and the welcoming response from other MRAs both make clear.
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A) Nurses should be valued and appreciated more, for sure. It’s pretty bullshit that a female-dominated profession is ‘lesser’ than a male dominated one, but WE ALL KNOW WHY, eh?
b) This bit:
CONGRATS, you’ve discovered the advanced, mysterious technique called “editing”, friend.
There’s a *reason* why, in a field that is not mostly-women, you’re seeing a short film featuring mostly women. I just….?????
I give you – the Kuleshov experiment(/effect).
(One day I’ll remember that name without having to type ‘soviet editing experiment bowl of soup’, haha.)
ETA: Maybe that will embed. 9__6
Why is anyone wasting time on something that doesn’t directly apply to him? Worse, they’re wasting HIS time by making him think about something other than himself.
THE AGONY!
@Curious_Diversions
And he’s wasting even more time by complaining about it online.
I have to say, David nailed it with that title!
But as for this:
I…I don’t know where to start. This is horrible but also ridiculous. Obviously it wasn’t the engineering school that killed them.
Added: @Lainy, good luck with exams! (I have just one, next Monday, for Intro to Linguistics.)
I’ve seen so many stubborn teenage boys go through this. Their heads are so far up their own asses, so convinced that they understand the hierarchies of the world and how they’re going to push their way into what they “deserve” that they refuse to even parse a narrative lesson about others. Basically misogynistic, unfulfilled goons who reach to blame others for taking away their smug self-satisfaction. This whole thing reads like a seventeen year old rebelling against the fact that he has to go to class in the first place, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the actual core petty emotional response he’s pulling on to write this.
The idea that being exposed to the École Polytechnique Massacre and then showing women engineers from history is “contradictory” is so… confusingly ass-backwards? How does that contradict anything, other than the murderer’s belief that women in engineering is somehow wrong and deserving of death? The only way that “contradicts” is if you assume mass murderers are well-reasoned warnings to be heeded instead of atrocities committed by horrible human beings who devalue society as a whole. Which makes sense, I guess, to this collection of clown children.
Slightly unrelated rant about the social status of some jobs: As someone who has had a bit of exposure to working and student engineers, my opinion is: nurses are thorough in their work because they understand the repercussions of failure. They know, up front, that human lives are dependent on their work. Even bad nurses have to be people-focused. Their work effects others on a smaller scale but is inherently, obliquely valuable. Engineers, though, will make silly dumb fantasy projects on a public works budget that are physically impossible or poorly developed or are actively, wildly dangerous to human beings and have zero remorse or worry that their crappy work could be responsible for thousands of deaths (or that they’re getting paid for failing horribly). Maybe because it’s a major where smug, not-actually-as-bright-as-they-consider-themselves self-centered STEM douchebags tend to flock; I don’t know.
Props to all the really good engineers who care about their work and maintaining public safety, though. Keep cleaning up the messes of your terrible, terrible brood.
@lainy– hell yeah! You got this, you’re almost done! Be confident in all the effort you’ve put in!!!
@Kara.
I’m almost certain that is what’s going through his head. I think a lot of MRAs are teenage boys coming of age and stumbling across the toxic ideology. I hope most of them grow out of it. Sadly, some clearly don’t (see: Paul Elam, many others like him).
@Lainy
Good luck on your exams!
@Lainy – Good luck on your exams! I’m sure you’ll rock them!
@Naglfar
Oh dude, that’s definitely what bolsters the ranks of these subreddits. But there’s just as many and more adult men all over the range of identities who have the same beliefs, and although they aren’t outspoken, card-carrying man-o-sphere members, they similarly haven’t matured since they were seventeen.
I know it’s nice to expect the best out of people, and I know hopefully many will change and grow, but this feels a bit Pollyanna, to me. Men don’t stumble into thinking men are superior to women, they’re taught it and given back-pats their entire lives over it. Absolutely no offense meant at all, but your response really made me think the way older men have spoken to me throughout life must have been a wildly, wildly different experience from the way they’ve spoken to you. I mean, basically, even though this guy’s primary emotional response was being a sullen child, there’s more to getting out of an oppressive mindset than just “growing up,” y’know what I mean?
From my experiences with pulling some teen boys (and some men) out of blatant, self-important misogynistic ignorance, most of them at least need to get dunked on and ridiculed directly to show just how foolish and misguided and unlikable their behavior/beliefs are. And even then, some will only see you as “one of the smart/good ones” or “an unreasonable hard-assed feminazi'” and only toe the line to keep out of trouble instead of actually growing as a person.
@Kara.
There definitely are older misogynists, and they are awful. In fact, many can be much worse. I have no tolerance for old misogynists either. What I meant is that the subset of misogynists that call themselves MRAs (as opposed to other kinds of misogynists like incels, MGTOWs, religious fundamentalists, etc) seem to be mostly young (or at least they’ve very good at sounding like whiny kids). I feel that older men are less likely to use internet communities like this, and probably less likely to identify as MRAs. They’re misogynistic, but not necessarily the same kind.
You are right that quite a few MRAs are not young but of the emotional maturity level of a teenager. I do not mean to excuse or downplay misogyny from older men, my post was a speculation based on MRA rhetoric. I’m sorry if it was misguided or offensive.
Good luck, Lainy!
I’m in need of a bit of luck myself – after weeks of being jobless, I have 2 interviews (different companies) this month!
@Victorious Parasol
Good luck at your interviews! May you land the job which is best for you.
@ Vicky P
And good luck to you also!!!
I’m sure you’ll knock em dead.
One of our star stylist’s clients is a woman who’s an aerospace engineer. Her hair is really really fine. It’s difficult in terms of volume issues but natural color is a gorgeous blonde and its texture is amazing. She’s a really really intelligent woman and is also SO nice. I feel really intimidated by her intelligence but she compliments my outfits a lot and I blush when she does. I like thinking about how her very existence would make these jerks angry because she’s an extremely successful researcher but literally looks like what they consider a “Stacey”. Though I guess they would say she’s post wall or something because we all supposedly have an expiration date after 22. Ugh. I imagine she faced lots of sexism not just for what she does but she gets objectified too. That makes me so mad. It’s like we can never win sometimes but on the other hand she inspires me. She knows I have a crush on a really handsome gorgeous guy in my social group (though to her I don’t mention it’s not a vanilla group because I keep that part private) and she always encourages me gently and says I should always go for what I want. I think any successful woman scientist is strong and I find them inspiring.
Hi Alan, I was smiling because I remember you once said you imagined me carrying around a plinth to stand on when I pose like at work…it’s so funny because since then I actually something like that now, first for some occasions and meetings at my BDSM social group and then after I got compliments on it I took it to work. It was too high for my hostess work but my boss liked the visual and her boyfriend made me this awesome little platform to stand on that’s just the right height like I’m on my own small portable mini-stage.
Oohh, good catch, Moggie. Yes, methinks our OP’s Freudian slip is showing.
To Lainy &VP: fingers crossed 4 both of you & hoping hard.
@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
When I was in high school I played clarinet and alto clarinet in the school band, and since there were about 80 people in the band my band director had to get a pedestal to stand on so the back row could see her conducting. Your description of your plinth reminds me of her mini stage on the big stage.
@ stacey
Oh that is so perfect for you; I bet you look amazing!
Saw a band last weekend that might appeal to you. Tokyo Taboo. They have a great aesthetic. Also the lead singer uses a pole on stage whilst she’s singing; she’s really athletic!
The pole did cause a bit of a problem; the venue weren’t going to allow it. The management were so arsey. But after much rowing, they did relent. Although we were subsequently thrown out of the venue for unrelated reasons.
https://www.tokyotabooband.com/photos
@Naglfar
Oh, I am sure for a big high school band a conductor would have to be raised up a bit at least! High school marching bands are amazing and the artistry is so incredible! Were you in marching band or concert band? Or both? Clarinet is a beautiful instrument…do you play now?
So cool that your director was a woman. I think there is something really creative and artsy about a woman physically raised above everyone and sexy too. My plinth in my BDSM group is really just a nice marble faced rectangular table with like solid sides and that’s higher than it is wide so it looks tall. Our BDSM group is full of nice people and it’s a social group but we do have protocol and a rank system. I feel really empowered being allowed to stand on it and the whole thing about being in such control of which guys talk to me and how and when they are allowed to talk to me is awesome. It takes setting up though because although I feel really sexy once I’m up there and on it and posing I look really funny actually climbing up on it. I have to put my shoes on only once I’m already on it and someone has to steady me standing up and then actually hand me my whip to hold. So we do that set up privately behind a curtain and then whoever wants an audience with me can request it and if I allow it they can come before me. It’s like theater and although it takes a lot of set up it’s fun. I feel like also it really shows which guys who say they like me really have the courage to meet me on my terms and the patience to do it my way. But I would never let them see the awkward set up! Though it’s actually funny and fun in a way even though it’s serious if that makes sense.
@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
We only had one band that marched during the fall and part of the spring, and played in a concert configuration the rest of the year. I played soprano clarinet (the one people usually think of when they think of clarinets) during marching season and alto clarinet (between the soprano and bass clarinets) during concert season. I still do own my soprano clarinets (though I had to return my alto to the school) and still do play occasionally, but since graduating high school I’ve mostly played guitar and various other stringed instruments such as ukulele and mandolin.
@Alan
Thank you so much you are so nice! And yes you are right I love Dolly Daggerz! Pole arts are amazing and here in the U.S. there are pole arts and pole fitness classes. I took a beginner class once; if I would do more I would have to really coordinate with outfit planning because of the bruises you get. So I would have to make sure they wouldn’t show.
Yes, my little platform at work is nice and because it’s a little lower I have been wanting it at my BDSM group because the bullwhip that I can actually crack and handle somewhat well (and I say somwhat because I’m still learning) is 6′ and I really need a longer one for my plinth because it’s taller. And these are real whips so safety is super important of course and is like the first priority. I am supposed to only crack it for dramatic effect when giving instructions and so have to make sure I’m 100% confident and if I were maybe a little lower to the ground with that particular whip I would feel more comfortable with my cracking. But I admit I like being higher up (once I actually get up there that is!)
@Naglfar
Mandolin is also beautiful! You sound so talented!
Do you compose?
@Naglfar
Nawh dude you’re all good, no need to apologize (although it’s appreciated for sure). And I see your point and agree, I just want to make sure that it’s not taken as, like, the totality of those opinion-havers aren’t just reddit MRA babies who picked it up from the septic part of the internet, but neither are they and other kinds of misogyny completely separate circles in the Venn Diagram of Yikes.
And good luck, Parasol! You can do it!
@StaceySmartyPamtsTwiceRemoved
I don’t currently own a mandolin, but I’ve played one a few times. It is a beautiful instrument and I would like to own one in the future.
I have composed in the past in various genres, but these days I haven’t had as much time so I haven’t done much composing. If I have more time in the future I hope to do more composition.
That’s also really cool Naglfar. Creativity of any kind is a blessing!
You know, thinking about this, and history of women in engineering, especially back in the earlier days, and how women like Grace Hopper did a lot of the early computer programming (in part because that was considered ‘secretarial’ work rather than ‘engineering’ work), and some other history discussions I was having…
I think so much of this sort of attitude is basically continued reverberations from the cultural shift forced at the late 40’s/early 50’s where women were actively kicked out of the jobs they had been in during the war to create openings for the returning soldiers. The same sorts of people who had used social engineering to sell ‘variety meats’ during the war tried to rebuild society with women in the home, as well as refurbishing all the factories to make consumer goods that men would buy to make women happy. The repercussions of trying to slam the gate closed again are still echoing, and at least at the beginning it was very deliberate. (Some of it is still deliberate, but social trends like that have their own momentum.)