By David Futrelle
Unable or unwilling to deal with real-life women, more than a few misogynists have turned to imaginary substitutes — from video game hotties to hypnogogic hallucinations they think are succubi.
But the imaginary ladies they feel the strongest about are of course their anime waifus, whom many misogynists have come to feel are superior to IRL women, and not just because their giant eyes would be better to see with,
Now one dude has apparently decided that his obsessive love of 2-dimensional women isn’t just a slightly sad kink but is his actual sexual orientation. You know, like being gay. According to a quite possibly true posting in the Am I The Asshole subreddit, he recently “came out” as an anime lover to his parents and his extremely annoyed sibling.
Anime dude really needs to learn the difference between a fetish and an orientation.
The post inspired quite a debate on Reddit before it was deleted by the subreddit mods.
H/T — @AITA_reddit on Twitter for the Reddit post and the DisgustedAnimeGirls subreddit (yes, this is a real thing) for the graphic.
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Not sure if it fully fits a concept like orientation but it’s not really that important if it does, what does matter is that its true enough for it to having been announced, considering the private nature of such a setting, maybe putting it on reddit (even anomalized) might be a-holish.
Anime girls can be submissive but who knows from such scarce details, maybe he goes for the tsundere/yandere types or just the default appearances and ignoring any particular types of behaviors.
Technically, Gal Gadot is a 5/10. She’s a 10 in physical beauty, but she loses five points for supporting a colonial, apartheid state.
But I thought the whole point of this is that things that we draw are just as real as we are ourselves?
Ugh, the comments on that thread are full of acephobia as well… “He just needs to get outside and interact with real women…”. “Take him to a strip club…”. “He needs counseling and therapy…”
The brother only needs counseling if he’s bothered by it or it’s affecting his ability to socialize, and he wants support and coping strategies. Otherwise everyone needs to STFU and let him be. He doesn’t need to be “cured” because he isn’t ill. As long as he isn”t spewing hateful, degrading stuff about women, who cares?
It is true, though, that people who badly want the benefits of patriarchy but don’t see a place for themselves in it can react in ways that are harmful, including the inability to accept themselves and others as they truly are. (Come to think of it, people who have a secure spot in the hierarchy frequently do the same thing, out of fear of losing their spot.). Patriarchy’s a helluva drug.
Well, that’s the problem. He is saying degrading things about women. He isn’t saying that he is uninterested in a relationship or uninterested in sex. He said that he isn’t attracted to real women because they are fat and smell bad. Maybe, he said that because he was pushed into it by family, but it is still wrong.
That isn’t ace. If it is, then it is being filtered through toxic misogyny he has to get over.
Yes i just can’t see any evidence here that he is ace. Or any reason to talk about that like it’s an excuse for him???
Just my two cents, but I think the fact that the characters and storylines are not just artificial – and thus but can be made to do, say, and like or loathe anything – they can literally violate any physical laws, biological constraints, or kinesthetic limitations contributes heavily to this, especially the more extreme stuff.
Also, it’s a lot cheaper to hire an artist to draw some stuff than to hire actors to perform it, so it works on the email scammer dynamic: it doesn’t take nearly as many customers to make money off fetish anime than it does off RL fetish porn.
Just on the topic of ace/aromantic, I’ve long suspected I’m aromantic. I’m far from asexual, but I’ve never been comfortable with the idea of pursuing any long-term relationship, both from the standpoint of inviting another person into my quirky little world and also the change it might represent to that existence. So far, it’s worked alright for me.
@naglfar
Oh, I could venture some guesses. With so much of what permeates the online subcultures originating in Japan (video games, anime series etc.), a lot of the fanservice is going to originate from there as well. As such, there’s more opportunity for connection and familiarity than there are with artwork and material that might come with more obscure western fandoms.
You’re not alone in noticing it; it’s actually kind of irked me how much of it I have to wade through to find some more “western”-styled illustrations. Not that there’s anything wrong with manga-styled art, I just find that the subject matter tends to be… problematic to say the least. Just to illustrate my point, I’ve actually been perusing some Italian fumetti (comics) from the 1970s and 1980s and the giallo themes are somehow less brutal than a lot of the treatments I see of women in hentai.
Just on the topic of CGI are actually groups out there that specialize in 3D-rendered adult material, but I get the impression that it’s far more niche and not a lot of it rests in fanservice.
@Katamount
I don’t really look at porn, but I was on DeviantArt a bit ago looking for something and noticed a lot of anime fetish art. I’m not really interested in that style much, and I do find the misogyny to be problematic, especially in things like ero guro.
I also notice a connection between anime and the alt right. As we discussed in another thread, a significant number of alt right Nazis seem to be anime fans, and 4chan was once an anime board.
Alt right anime fan are an odd bunch, hates “cucked” western media portrayals of limp wrist-ed beta soybois, but somehow think anime males aren’t typified by the cast of Ouran High School Host Club.
@Naglfar
I think Gaebolga’s response actually connects those dots. Basically, what anime fetish art does is take all of the unreal things that they get off on and lets it happen to familiar characters they’ve lusted after for one reason or another.
As a furry, I can certainly cop to that. I just happen to value the subject matter reflecting pleasure rather than discomfort.
@Katamount
That makes sense. That would also explain the prevalence of physically impossible fetishes which can only be made in art. I can understand people exploring fetishes through art, especially when those fetishes cannot be realized in meatspace.
This makes me a bit uncomfortable. I dont know if you mean it to sound like this so I will give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe this is becuase of text.
But. Okay. Firstly sentence sounds like you maybe feel that the ace people here are being too sensitive? But I can tell you that some of the questions and the idea that ace needs to be some kind of discussion is really not good, it makes people who are ace feel like we are not valid. And talking about us like we are not part of the discussion. It’s not good.
Also the next sentence about “taking our word for it” sounds a little bit patronising?? I’m not sure how to describe exaclty, but just because you didn’t personally see/experience acephobia, oppression, exclusion doesnt mean that it doesnt exists and that it isn’t a problem. Imagine if we were talking about transphobia and you said this sentence?? It sounds quite arrogant and dismissive and is quite hurtful to the ace people here who are talking about how they are uncomfortable with this discussion.
And finally people bullying for being single =/= not ace oppression. Please I really ask you to read the website i shared, and about the ways people are ace and aro and how is that experience for people. I am ace, I am in a relationship now for almost 10 years. I have sex, not becuase I personally need it, but because I know it makes my partner(s) happy and they enjoy it and I enjoy that they are happy. It is a way they show love and affection.
And finally, just all – deciding that this person in the article is ace is just like what people done before when people say someone might be autistic becuase they behave like an asshole. Dont do that??? Can we not do this? There is no clear evidence that this person is ace so let’s not say that they are??? Becuase otherwise it is associating the misogyny with ace people, if someone is sex repulsed it diesnt mean that they will say mysoginist things or say “real women are disgusting”. Thise are the words and beliefs of someone who hates women, not someone who is ace! Not that ace people cant be mysoginist (or racist or sexist or any bigot) but they are not these things becuase of their sexuality.
He said he (personally) doesn’t find their smells appealing, not that all women inherently smell bad. Same with the model whose waistline wasn’t to his taste. It’s not clear whether he feels that way due to phobia/anxiety around physical closeness, or out of generalized dislike of women. I don’t get the same hateful vibe from him that I do from MGTOWs talking gleefully about sexbots and revenge, for example. There may be a lot more to the story that his brother’s leaving out, but the OP is all we have to go on.
It’s tricky. Preferences are preferences and can’t be reasoned with, but it’s so easy to weaponize them. Authoritarian men decide their preferences rule the world and women are to be judged and blamed based on how closely they adhere to them. Then it becomes easy to throw women under the bus as scapegoats when men don’t have conventional sex lives and feel like they’re not living up to others’ (impossible) standards.
Valentin:
Not really “too” sensitive as such, I’m just acknowledging that sensitivity is a thing, and the reason why we don’t generally have Rational Debate about other peole’s identities. Basically, I was wondering aloud if should clarify my thoughts a little more or just shut up.
If my discourse in this thread isn’t getting any better, please just tell me to stop, clearly but politely, and I’ll let you have that as a last word.
I meant it sincerely, but maybe it’s an inherently patronising expression? I sometimes fail language, typically by being overly honest/literal.
I’ve literally seen allies say that with regards to trans people’s gender identity and its importance. Now, I’m asking everyone here, is it actually bad form? Or different when talking about transphobia specifically?
Sorry for that personal note, it was misleading and not very relevant.
I briefly looked at that, but I really need something more like “Ace 101 for Dummies”. Now, I look at Wikipedia and see it cites a few scholars on anti-ace discrimination but there’s no much consensus on what exactly is going on.
What a nice response!
I am not sure about if there are standard interpretations for certain phrases it is just my interpretations.
For Ace/aro 101 that website has some nice articles. But here is another helpful link: http://www.whatisasexuality.com/intro/
As someone who most comfortingly fits under the grey ace umbrella… I really just couldn’t with this discussion. I know we’ve moved on, and Valentin has said it much better, but i never ever expected to see a regular ask if ace is a real orientation, and then for people to defend it.
It is real.
While i wouldn’t say i’ve experienced ‘oppression’ exactly, i was convinced for most of my life that i was just a broken human, who couldn’t succeed at the most basic of human needs. It sucks to feel broken, constantly broken.
I also wonder why people jumped to ‘ace’ and not ‘steeped in misogynistic chan culture’ for this brother? Yes, you can dislike female smells, and yes, that *might not* be because society has basically been told for years that “any female smell other than a fresh daisy is DISGUSTING, why aren’t you douching with LYSOL, don’t you want a man to want you????????”
But wouldn’t you say that’s probably a huge factor in it…???
About Gal Gadot being too fat for him, again, how is this not a red flag? Sure, he said her ‘waist is too big’, and people went off on preferences here, because apparently if he didn’t use the words “i think *Gal Gadot* is a huge tubbo”, it’s fine?
To remind everyone, THIS IS WHO HE IS TALKING ABOUT.
What???? She isn’t fat! Frankly, if *she’s* fat, and people here are willing to accept that as a freaking *kink*, i’m afraid to see who isn’t fat!
Basically, i’m surprised that because someone framed this as *coming out*, people are willing to allow some pretty blatantly misogynistic bullshit to pass.
Could he be sex repulsed? Sure. Could he have spent so much time in the depths of the internet that his expectation of what a woman would be to him is now really warped? That seems more likely. And if he is sex repulsed, this time spent in the bowels of the internet is why he’s expressing himself like this.
Could he be ace, and just expressing that in some really misogynistic ways? I guess? But why is that the *first* thing people jumped to???
And as for the people wondering what he has to tell his parents… Yeah, that sucks. It sucks when your parents keep asking you about any prospective partners. But people don’t usually come out as someone who is only attracted to anime. I told mine to stop asking, and that seemed to work alright. (After a few times.)
A reminder that aphobes have been super vocal on how asexuality isn’t real, and doesn’t belong in the LGBTQ+ grouping, for literal years now. So any ‘innocent’ questioning that echoes their bullshit automatically gets a huge side eye from me.
A better framing would be: “i don’t know much about asexuality, could anyone recommend some links or articles, or if they feel comfortable, share their experiences?”
Note how i never allowed the idea that it wasn’t freaking real in my question. Imagine doing this with anything else!
I accept that you meant taking our word for it genuinely and intended no harm. However, for future reference, I’ll try to illuminate why your use of the phrase came across as patronizing when the phrase doesn’t always do that.
Someone who says: “I’ve never witnessed or experienced transphobia, but I take trans people’s word that it does exist, because they have more knowledge on the subject than I do.” is doing fine.
Someone who says “hey, is being trans really a valid identity? I mean, is it really any different from experiencing bullying for not conforming exactly to prescribed gender roles?” is not doing fine.
And after that second person gets educated about transphobia and the challenges that trans people face, saying something like “whoa, I had no idea people were so sensitive about this. All right, I’ll take your word for it.” Comes across as incredibly patronizing and basically saying ‘whatever, I don’t really believe you, but if this will get you off my back then fine’.
Rhuu:
OK, that’s a landmine I totally failed to anticipate. Generally, I failed to consider how my wording could be seen as expressing reluctance towards asexual inclusion. I was starting from the premise that, in progressive consensus, asexuality is indeed considered both an orientation and a real thing generally.
I might have asked for resources on how sexual orientation is defined (and why that way), particularly in LGTBQ+ discourse. Or better yet, I might have just done the research myself, starting from Wikipedia.
My mentioning asexuality was unnecessary to begin with, since I was mainly interested in the orientation vs. kink distinction, which describes sexual attraction, not lack thereof. Besides, extensive wanking on that distinction in this thread would have been kind of derailing from the misogyny.
That’s really well put, Catalpa.
Catalpa – Thanks.
@alan
DON’T! (with a subtitle)
The Injuction Function
Judge is the boss of you.
@ Shiela
Thank you! I definitely need something. Currently it’s the “You’re not my mum…” one; and that’s a bit clumsy.
We do have a new pic for the animal law page on my website though. What do peeps think? Is this the right sort of image?
@Alan,
My idea was similar to Shiela – ‘Injunction Junction, What’s Your Function?’, but I strongly suspect that the number of non-USAsians who’d get the joke is rather small.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NWBO9NAYm-U
(Schoolhouse Rock for the win. 😀 )
And was I the only one reading the OP who thought the ‘anime orientation’ guy was actually trying for (for lack of a better term) a share of the SJW cookies? Like, for example, gay people can get limited job protection based on their orientation; perhaps this brother thought if he declared himself an ‘anime sexual’ (or whatever that would be called), he could get identical protections for himself?
Without, you know, making himself an icky gay person (from his POV) to get those sweet sweet legal protections. And if he doesn’t like the way people like him are portrayed in the media, he can say so and the world will fall over itself to make things ‘right’ again, just like they do with gay people when they don’t like their media portrayals.
(And I know that that’s not how it works in the real world, but from what I can tell from David’s reporting, their are a fair amount of guts who do think it’s that easy for the ‘not like them’ people to change the world. If that makes sense.)
@Alan something referencing not being “up the (in)Junction” – is that still well-known enough an expression? dunno quite how one might phrase it, though.
(for non-Brits, it’s an old London slang expression something like “up shit creek/up the creek”)