By David Futrelle
Our great- great- (great?) grandparents were kind of fucked up, at least if these were the sorts of things they sent each other on Halloween.
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Trick or Treating seems to be a relatively recent thing here. Traditionally our way of kids begging is ‘penny for the Guy’. We do though have ‘mischief night’ on 30 October. That’s basically the ‘trick’ bit but without the option to pay the kids off.
Alacks —
Ordinarily I agree. I just don’t think the card above is necessarily an intentionally racist image; I think the child is “dark skinned” because it’s supposed to be nighttime, not because it’s necessarily a Black child. I could be wrong, but then again, it’s not a card I would collect. I also admit it never occurred to me that anyone on this particular website might be overly sensitive to offensive things: otherwise why be here? I thought we were all here to witness the bad news about contemporary society, let alone the early 20th century. And yes, many antique images are still offensive today. Then again, there are many postcard artists whose kids were just really, really badly drawn. Either way, I appreciate your bringing up the subject. All postcard collectors love to “talk” about postcards.
I agree with Aleks, the last one looks like a racist caractirue. It is not just a white child in shadow.
Also,
People come to see the offensive things David reports on, and talk seriously about serious issues, this post is clearly a happy post to celebrate Halloween so I think it is important to point out if there is some offensive image.
@Sam Katz –
I think you are not understanding why people are here. We aren’t here because we are edgelords who are trying to find the most extreme things to… I don’t know, not be offended at?
We are here to bring attention to, and discuss, various Bad Things. I’m actually surprised to find someone who doesn’t understand that those things include ‘racism’, and ‘putting racist imagery in its proper historical context’.
It isn’t just the child’s skin tone, it is also her hair style, and perhaps also her lip colour.
You were literally responding to someone who said this:
I think you can trust an American historian to be sensitive to depictions of racist caricatures in American media, especially since they commented on it.
The important thing that you seem to have missed is that we are trying to foster a community that is trying to be aware of ideas and their effects (intentional or no) on people.
We have a rule specifically to protect neuro-divergent people from being thrown under the bus (the ‘no crazy talk’ rule). We have a ‘no TERF’ rule, so that our trans + GNC members feel safe here.
We’re trying to protect people, so that minority voices can feel free to speak up.
And part of that is pointing out when something has perhaps more connotations than someone else might have thought.
I’m just so confuddled by your apparent misunderstanding of what people are ‘doing here’, I’m not sure I can even explain how strange it seems to me!
ETA: And Valentin sweeps in with a much more succinct version of my comment. CURSES, foiled again!
ETA (again): In case you are completely unfamiliar with that hairstyle, have a bit of fantasia history that Disney would really love if we forgot about.
(CW: Racist caricature)
Ever wonder why that one scene with the centaur was cropped so weird? I did! Here’s why:
@Sam Katz
Could we not:
1) defend racist caricatures as “unintentional”
2) call people overly sensitive for simply pointing out the racism so the site host can consider the impact
3) defend creating racist imagery because of the time period
4) defend collecting racist imagery because one enjoys collecting
And maybe you should read the comments policy to get a better understanding of the comments section or even just sit back and read for a bit to get a feel for what flies, because calling someone easily offended and overly sensitive for calling out racism absolutely does not.
*bows* it is a rare moment that I say something which is clear ?
@Rhuu
It’s not just Fantasia. Pretty much all of the older Disney films (and a lot of newer ones) are super racist. Some have been edited to be less so, but a lot still have it.
Seconding kupo’s recommendation to read the comments policy. Seeing what Sam has posted in other threads, it would be a good idea for them to read it in depth.
@Sam Katz
Please, read the comments policy. Stop defending racism, blaming mothers for their sons being incels, and then complaining that people are too oversensitive.
Side note: I mentioned this in another thread, but since a number of people have done this, maybe we should add a section to the comments policy about not blaming people’s mothers for their actions?
Wow, folks — ! Here’s a reality check:
I am NOT blaming all mothers for their sons’ problems, but clearly, if you know anything about child development, forensic psychiatry, or just watched a Hitchcock film once or twice, you might surmise that problematic people aren’t, in most cases, actually born that way. I don’t know about your credentials, but I have spent the past 22 years as the writer and editor of the largest labor union of Police Detectives in the country. I have appeared in a number of documentaries about specific criminal cases. I’m a crime writer and I get paid very well to be one. As the commercial says, “I know a thing or two, because I’ve seen a thing or two.” Pardon me if I have a bit of sympathy for some seriously and deeply mentally disturbed people. They weren’t all simply dropped on their heads at birth. You’re certainly not going to fix anyone by ignoring how they got “that way.”
By the way, I’m a female Sam, in case my name made anyone jump to conclusions about “blame.”
I am also in no way defending racism. I’m simply noting it existed in full force at the beginning of the 20th century, occurs in some vintage graphics, and of course, still exists today. What the hell does that have to do with antique postcards as a whole? Or Halloween? Or pumpkins or black cats, or any other cards depicted above? Absolutely nothing, but keep hammering away if it all makes you feel better. I was under the impression that a guy named David controlled this blog, not a bunch of people who use pseudonyms to hide their real identities so that they can be as abusive and dismissive as they want to others. I don’t use a pseudonym. Sam Katz is my real name.
I have no idea if you are confusing me with some other Sam Katz, but I don’t believe I have posted on more than one or two threads on this blog. But believe me, I’m out of here. I don’t have the time or inclination to have people insult me for absolutely no reason except that they’re unable to read without projecting their own filters onto someone else. Try reading what’s actually on the page, and not what you imagine is on the page.
As for the big protection racket — (i.e. “We’re trying to protect people, so that minority voices can feel free to speak up”) — apparently that does not apply to female, Jewish, 4’11”, 64 year olds. I am a minority, in case math isn’t your strong point.
As for “maybe I’m not understanding what flies here” — I didn’t know there was a group censorship process or that this blog was limited to a zombie-like , collegiate group-think. Anyway, none of you will have to worry about me any longer. I’m flyin’ out, permanently, on my Halloween broomstick.
Dont let the door hit you on the way out! ?♂️
Sadly, a lot of kids today, black or white, don’t get the chance to worry about a scary Halloween pumpkin. They have to worry about staring down the barrel of a 9mm. In New York City, we had several kids shot and killed this past week.
And there’s no door here, just a bunch of rude, assumptive people who are blind to their own glaring issues.
From a police officer. For existing and complying. Gtfoh, cop.
>”but believe me, I’m out of here”
>posts again
?
Perhaps not, but it’s pretty telling that in your only comment on the subject, you only mention the mother.
Dad’s off the hook, I guess?
The inherent misogyny in your statement is both telling and problematic, especially so for the commentariat of a blog dedicated to mocking misogyny.
…and that’s not even addressing the fact that you immediately went to upbringing (which, judging by your statement above, you seem to think is pretty much only the mom’s responsibility) as the primary cause of an incel’s fucked-upedness.
So what? Do you believe that minorities are somehow unable to be prejudiced? That women can’t be misogynists?
Interesting.
And very wrong.
…says the woman who can’t even see her own inherent misogyny.
Cheers!
And if someone had posted an anti-semitic caricature that you, because of your Jewish heritage/faith (not sure which, don’t want to assume) recognised that maybe those of us who aren’t Jewish wouldn’t, and you said something?
I’d listen. Because you, in this case, know more than I on X thing.
I might do some research, to see what you were basing it on, and see if there are like, hundreds of examples of little girls with that hairstyle, who are racist caricatures. Did you watch the Fantasia example? You know that’s all cropped out of the final release, right? You won’t see that on any DVD.
re: Using a ‘nym instead of your real name – UHHHH, you’re old enough that it’s actually weird that you’d be using your real name. I say that because you, as well as I, grew up before modern social media made it normal to give people personal information.
I still remember the warnings we got to not actually tell a stranger our a/s/l, because they could be super creepy men who are just trying to lure a 14 year old into a bad situation.
It also must be nice to not have to worry about someone doxxing you, and then harassing you, your work, your friends, your family. Sending death and rape threats. Constant, for years.
You don’t even need to be a big name for this to happen, you can look at what happened to Chanty Binx, just a normal protestor!
Re: racism – Sure seemed to hit a sore point on the racism there, eh? You know you can like something that has problematic elements, right? No one is going to stop you? It’s just good to realise that yes, X is a thing with Y effect.
lololololllllll
You know that isn’t how language works, right? Words have shades of meaning?
So, say I wanted to call someone loud, like their voice is loud.
I could go with ‘boisterous’, which would imply that they were loud, but also probably happy, and ultimately not threatening.
“Shrill” – female coded, someone to be disregarded.
“Loud” – pretty neutral, unless the person I’m talking about is a WoC, and then we get into the Angry Black Woman stereotype.
“Commanding” – “He commanded the attention of the room” – probably positive, definitely male coded.
The words you choose have shades of inflection. This is why we choose one over another. You could be speaking formally, you could be speaking to your family, you could be speaking to your work peers, and all of those language/word choices would probably be different.
Re: “I’m a minority, that means you can’t question me!” (paraphrasing, another thing I can do to shift the meaning to show what I understood, because THAT IS HOW LANGUAGE WORKS)
Just because you are a Jewish woman who is shorter than average doesn’t mean we’ll let your racism fly. We also wouldn’t let your transphobia fly (if you were to display any, I haven’t noticed that yet). Being a minority doesn’t get you a free pass.
I think you’ll find that there are many minorities here, if you were to lurk in the comments section more!
I think this defensive reaction is… Well, if you push through it, and see that we weren’t criticising *you* as a person, but rather your words, you might learn something.
Or you could, Iunno, keep Boomering it up.
HERE’S THE TEEEEEL DEEEEER –
I guess I missed how the “nurture” part of the nature or nurture equation does not apply to fathers. Or to other aspects of the environment besides the mother.
@ WWTH – ONLY MOTHERS HAVE AN EFFECT ON CHILDREN.
It’s science. /s
9__9
That post by Sam Katz was, uh, quite something. On multiple levels.
I recall that parenting became a really sticky subject on one of these threads, I think two years ago. So, in the interest of trying to be as careful and precise about this as I can, I think parenting culture overall has a lot of problems, especially when it comes to children with disabilities, and parents should carry some responsibility for actions that hurt their children. However, I don’t think generally they should carry responsibility for when their children knowingly, deliberately hurt others or talk about doing so — at least, not unless the parents are deliberately instilling attitudes that lead to that kind of thing.
On the subject of minorities hurting each other, I’ve heard that people are starting to adopt the term “brave space” over “safe space” as the latter might imply a space where nobody ever hurts each other, which probably isn’t actually possible.
I wish I had the time to read all these comments in detail, but I stopped at “you’re a cop,” because I never said I was a cop. I’m a civilian who works for a labor union of Detectives. That’s what I meant about some of you not reading what is on the page. But thanks to the person above for proving my point.
I also never strictly blamed just mothers, and yes, fathers are responsible, too. But if mommy is loving, strong willed, and protective, in the vast majority of cases, she will be loved back. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out. My comment was in no way misogynistic — I am just pointing out the obvious as is evidenced by millions of cases. There are also millions of cases where daddy, and/or both parents, and/or no parents were culpable or even in the picture. Every case is different.
At the end of the day, all I did was make some totally innocuous comments about an antique postcard and it degenerated into this. I think you all might want to look up that “comments policy” thing yourselves.
As for identity, I don’t believe in anonymity on the Internet or anyplace. Why would I comment and hide my identity? Anonymity is for cowards. No professional writer or person with any integrity worries about a gaggle of anonymous people spewing their attacks and posting idiotic memes on social media. That’s child’s play. The only criticism I worry about is when a paycheck is involved. Your insults are of no consequence to me at all. Sorry to have to tell you that, but it’s simply true.
While we’re calling out “isms,” as for the “Boomer” thing above, that’s ageist. Please be advised you can drop dead at any age, including yours, whatever that may be.
Naglfar, I love that trump pumpkin!
I’M D Y I N G~
I’m an older millenial, and I’ll make you a deal. I’ll only use the ‘okay boomer’ meme for as long as boomers have been blaming millenials on killing/ruining things. Sound fair?
(ofc it’s hella fair)
ALSO HOLY SHIT you need to read the gamergate tags on here. Here are a few links, for when you might want to dig your head out of your ass, and see what the actual consequences of a concerted effort to ruin someone’s life is.
The Zoe Quinn tag (on this site. WARNING if you search ‘zoe quinn gamergate on google, you will get some VERY NSFW stuff.) Like, this shit is also NSFW, but in a way that is framed as ‘holy shit how is someone doing this’ and not ‘LOL i told her to kill herself LOL’, so.
An article on gamergate from Wapo, from 2014.
An article on feministfrequency (Anita Sarkeesian’s site) about one week of twitter harassment.
Chanty Binx, the woman I suggested you look up. This is an article about how she was at an LCBO (that’s a provincially owned liquor store) minding her own business, when some shit weasel recognised her voice, managed to get the security footage, and reignite the harassment against her.
Basically, you have revealed yourself to be woefully unlearned in this matter.
You’re lucky someone is willing to spend time teaching you anything, especially since you’ll probably ignore it.
I just… I’m dismissing you not for your age, but for your unwillingness to listen and learn.
Except for all the ones who get threats and are forced to leave their homes.
Are those women cowards in your eyes? They posted under their real names, and they continue to receive harassment today.
Edit: Ninja’ed by Rhuu. That post is more comprehensive anyways so if you only have time to read one post, read the one above this one.
Surprise, it sure is.
People from a certain generation aren’t, like, inherently worse than people from other generations. It’s just the boomer generation in particular holds a disproportionate share of wealth, at least in the US and Canada*, and some members of that therefore very powerful generation like to spend a lot of time talking about how young folks eat too many avocados and that’s why they don’t own McMansions, and why do people younger than me care about things like “racism” and “sexism” and “not being a raging jerk 24/7”? The young are the worst!!!1! Etc.
While it is possible to be a jerk in some of these ways at once no matter your age, it is impossible to be a jerk in all of these ways at once unless you are a boomer. The things you said were pretty stereotypical for that subset of the boomer generation; thus, you were hit with the label.
*Was there a baby boom in other parts of the world post-WWII?
And yet the mother was the only one you mentioned in your comment, so yes, you actually were strictly blaming the mother in this particular case. And since that’s the only case we’ve seen from you so far, it shouldn’t be a surprise that we extrapolated a reasonably logical conclusion from it.
And if daddy happened to be a raging misogynist towards that loving, strong willed, and protective mommy, what might junior make of that? How might junior’s attitude towards women be affected by such a situation?
Since we’re dealing strictly in hypotheticals, I can match you case for case, as long as you like.
Care to continue digging yourself deeper?
So why did you explicitly and exclusively focus on the mother, if every case is different? Why so quick to blame a woman for some asshole’s misogyny?
Because that seems like a pretty misogynistic thing to do…
@Viscaria
I’m not an expert, but some research I did indicates there was somewhat of a baby boom in Northern Europe and New Zealand.
@Naglfar – Your links are really good, as well! I like that we mirrored at least one haha.
@Sam Katz – You should read all of those links. But don’t feel like you need to power through them, there is disturbing stuff in there. Take care of yourself.
(But do look at them, especially since you seem to have exactly 0 idea about the harassment people can face.)
AND BEFORE YOU GO “just get off the internet!” remember that isn’t actually possible for many people, who need to use the internet as their personal branding/advertising/engagement machine.
Anyway, the harassers should be off the internet, not their victims.