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empathy deficit entitled babies incels misogyny normies

Incels: We just want love and compassion! Also Incels: We hate women and want to beat them

By David Futrelle

Some dueling headlines from the Braincels subreddit today.

First, we have a heartfelt plea for love and compassion from the outside world:

Honest question brocels. How many of you actually think women should be forced to have sex with us? Because reddit normied seem to think we actually want that and aren't just memeing. Why don't they understand we want love and compassion for christ's sake?

Oh but wait, because there’s also this:

If you're not a misogynist, you're a cuck. (self.Braincels)

And this:

We are hateful and there's no shame in that.

And here’s a post expressing nostalgia for the good old days a century ago when women couldn’t vote and men could get away with beating their wives:


1920s women couldn’t vote, beating your wife was legal, women were feminine and could cook. any man with a job could get a gf. 2020 men buy women’s shit stained underwear online

FWIW, the 19th Amendment was ratified in August of 1920, so women in fact could vote in the 1920s.

Also, if dudes in the 1920s could have bought women’s soiled undies online, they totally would have because, you know, dudes.

But the broader point is that if you don’t show love and compassion to anyone except fellow members in your online misogyny club, you probably shouldn’t demand it from others?

Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.

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Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

I’ve heard urban legends about it, but is there actually a market for used underwear? It seems like a rather niche product.

Lakitha Tolbert
Lakitha Tolbert
1 year ago

Okay, this is off-topic, but I am getting extremely distracted by David’s current Twitter feed. There is a tired, and possibly drunk, cat, plus Jean-Luc Picard and the Borg!

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Lakitha
You’re not the only one getting distracted. My favorite recent tweet, though, was a video of an elderly white man with a passing resemblance to Paul Elam lip syncing to Lizzo.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
1 year ago

@Naglfar:

Seems there is, yes. I’ve also read about people mixing water and flour together, then applying it to the crotches of clean underwear. After it dries, it’s supposed to mimic… you know… normal vaginal discharge. I tend to believe this is factual, as bizarre as it sounds.

I was hate-reading the Return of Kings comments section awhile ago, before they went belly-up, and.one commenter admitted it wasn’t about sex for him, but about human connection. As in David’s last paragraph above, that’s a two-way street. You have to show it to others, in order to get it in return, and you’re unlikely to come across it in your local meat market.

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 year ago

@Naglfar:

I’ve heard urban legends about it, but is there actually a market for used underwear? It seems like a rather niche product.

yep. Actually a market.

Movie/video chat performers that work out of their homes or otherwise don’t do porn/sex work that pays enough on its own will offer to sell their worn underwear to their fans.

I don’t know if anyone sells underwear who doesn’t do home movies/video chats, but I suppose that’s possible.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

FWIW, the 19th Amendment was ratified in August of 1920, so women in fact could vote in the 1920s.

Not only that, but men were clutching their pearls over the horrible debauchery of flapper women in the 20’s. So there’s that.

In fact, every generation sees men and lots of women with a load of internalized misogyny complaining about how slutty and unfeminine women are these days, unlike the good old days.

It’s almost like the problem isn’t women, but misogyny.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Crip Dyke
Ah, so there is a market. I shouldn’t be surprised, as it’s just another proof of the rule of American consumerism: if you can package it, someone will buy it.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
1 year ago

I’ve read that Dita Von Teese, the performance artist and stripper, sells her used stockings to fans. These aren’t pantyhose, they’re old-school stockings held up with a garter belt.

Easy money, I guess.

I’ve been posting quite a bit recently, because my modem died early in the week. The thing was less than 3 months old. Without internet connectivity, I don’t have a home phone, nor can I do any work from home. That’s life in the sticks.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 year ago

“If they’ll buy poison, they’ll buy anything!” — Quark, insightful as always, after encountering 20th-century Americans smoking cigarettes.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Dormousing_it
Sorry about your modem. If you don’t mind me wondering, though, how are you able to post without internet?

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
1 year ago

@Dormousing_it: This was an actual plot point in a season of Orange Is The New Black where the main character is smuggling used underwear out of the prison for her brother to sell to fetishists online… and the brother and his wife using various mixtures to simulate the discharge when demand started to exceed supply…

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
1 year ago

Shorter incels: please don’t hate us because we’re beautiful hateful! 🙄

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
1 year ago

@wwth:

It’s almost like the problem isn’t women, but misogyny.

‘Twas ever thus.

OMG that slut totally tempted me! You gotta believe me, Big Guy!

— Adam, 4004BC

Aron
Aron
1 year ago

Jane, you ignorant slut!

(Ref. the classic Point, Counter-Point routine on SNL)

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
1 year ago

@Naglfar:

I ordered an inexpensive modem, as soon as I discovered my modem had died. That was Monday. It was delivered Friday.

This is getting ridiculous. These days, internet connectivity has become a neccessity.

If I don’t have it, I drive the 1 hour and 15 minutes in to work every day.

There are times when I wish I’d never heard of the internet.

Talonknife
Talonknife
1 year ago

So, OT, I’ve spent three days arguing with TERFs on Twitter and I’m emotionally exhausted. Does anyone have some good resources I can dump on them if I end up in this situation again? It’s like dealing with a hydra. Every time one of them finally leaves me alone, three more pop up to continue arguing.

Moggie
Moggie
1 year ago

Speaking of David’s twitter feed, compare the photo of Boris Johnson there (in amiable buffoon mode) with the one at the top of this Guardian article. Not looking so good now, is he? Let’s hope things get even worse for him.

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 year ago

@Talonknife:

Depends on the exact topic. I have a bunch of things on my blog that might be useful to link, as do a couple other people on FtB. There are lots of other resources as well, but no one writes about **everything**, so if you want folks to give you recommendations for links (to articles here or elsewhere), we can help you best knowing a bit more.

Of course, sounds like you mean for next time, not now (I hope? You’re done, right? You’re taking care of yourself?) so you don’t have to say anything today, but just keep it in mind and ask next time it would be useful.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Talonknife
It’ll be an uphill battle. Try pointing at some of their hypocrisy. It’s not hard to find. Like the fact that in England (and probably elsewhere) they have teamed up with far right antifeminist conservatives because to them it’s more important to hurt trans folks than it is to advance rights for women.
Remember not to actually say the word TERF, because Twitter considers it a slur. It sucks, but they make the rules and it isn’t worth a Twitter ban.
ContraPoints has a video about TERFs, but it may not be as effective as a persuasion tool, as they’re unlikely to listen to a trans woman.

I’m wondering if soon TERFs will fully abandon any pretense of feminism and join the alt right Nazis over a shared hatred of trans people. They already sound a bit like white supremacists, and I’d guess they’re almost all white.
I also know that they are actively withdrawing from actual feminist groups. I was hate reading r/GenderCritical and before I was overcome with rage, I noticed a post where someone mentioned that they were leaving any feminist group that was trans inclusive. I would link, but I’m not going back there for a while. At any rate, I doubt that any real feminists miss them.

Dormousing_it
Dormousing_it
1 year ago

@Cat Mara:

More than 10 years ago, I knew someone who sold their used underwear to someone in Germany. I don’t know who I should feel sorry for, if anyone at all.

Heh… I’m a bit intoxicated. I never had hard cider before tonight. I purchased a 4- pack of the stuff yesterday. I’m Murican; hard cider isn’t all that popular here. It’s 7 percent alcohol, according to the label. I’ve had 3 12 ounce cans so far. I should probably quit while I’m ahead. It’s very tasty, tho.

Nequam
Nequam
1 year ago

I was under the impression hard cider was catching on in the US because of those who didn’t want gluten. No? (I like its taste better than beer, frankly, though I’m not much of a drinker to begin with.)

Ash
Ash
1 year ago

@talonknife
This is extremely embarrassing to say and not something I like to readily admit, but….I used to be pretty fucking TERFy.
Or perhaps more peripherally TERF adjacent. My issue was that I had a lot of well meaning opinions that were not entirely fleshed out and formed based on bullshit socio-cultural anxieties. I’m not happy to say I am “passed that” these days, because it means admitting I had a fucked up POV for a really long time… But it is what it is.
The point where this became a superpower was when I was able to understand TERF logic in a way that a lot of people can’t (and shouldn’t.)
But basically, if you came across any specific TERF BS you can’t quite parse to argue with, I’d love to try to help you have a reply in your back pocket for next time ^-^

Ikarikid the Dumb
Ikarikid the Dumb
1 year ago

So it’s…

Incels: We want love and compassion!
Also incels: Jane, you ignorant slut…

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 year ago

Count me with those who prefer cider to beer.

In fact, I loathe beer, as a general rule, and never drink it.

Of course, It’s been four or six months since I’ve had any alcohol at all, so it’s not like I’m in love with cider either, even if I have had a few good tasting ones. .

Kimstu
Kimstu
1 year ago

@Talonknife:

Ask the TERFs why, if they think it’s “denying biology” to, say, call a transgender woman a woman, they don’t claim it’s “denying biology” to, say, call an adoptive mother a mother.

I mean, this sh*t about insisting that a word like “woman” has a specific biological meaning and cannot be used except in conformity with that meaning is just so illogical. We do this kind of category broadening in language ALL THE TIME on words that were originally restricted to a specific technical meaning, and now have a primary definition that’s more general or abstract.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Ash
I know it’s hard to admit that you may have made mistakes, but the fact that you can admit that and show that you’ve changed is good. You are stronger than most if you are able to realize that what you once believed was hateful, then move on and leave the hate behind. It’s also a sign of strength that you are able to help counter hate. Thank you.
If you don’t mind me asking more, what was it exactly that made you change your mind?

Onager
Onager
1 year ago

@Crip Dyke

I don’t know if anyone sells underwear who doesn’t do home movies/video chats, but I suppose that’s possible.

I am not going to delve into the economics of the practice but I imagine those are the top end of the market but there are always people out for a cheap deal.

I once saw a documentary that included someone who was selling so many through eBay that it wasn’t practical to even farm it out and was sitting in their kitchen with a stack of cheap underpants – they rubbed their finger in an open tin of tuna, applied it on the crotch of the knickers and then put them in a ziplock bag read for mailing. All very depressing for a number of reasons.

In Japan there is a thriving trade in used “schoolgirl” underwear, including vending machines. I had long assumed it was an urban myth but apparently not, although it is now illegal for the previous owner to be underage:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-love-machine/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burusera

https://www.techinasia.com/japan-used-panty-vending-machines-fact-fiction

That last one includes this towards the end: “Warning! Skip the following sentence if you want to keep that last smidgen of your faith in humanity.”

Too late.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
1 year ago

@Moggie

There was a photo of Alexander de Pfeffel with Justin Trudeau a while back where I swear it looked like his face was melting from his skull. Either he’s a lizard person and not very good at keeping his costume on, or the job’s tougher than he expected.

Simon
Simon
1 year ago

@Moggie
Marina Hyde’s current piece describes Johnson as “What if you shaved the Honey Monster and put him in a suit for a court appearance?”

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
1 year ago

As always, incels get everything wrong:

Prior to the mid-1800s, most legal systems implicitly accepted wife beating as a valid exercise of a husband’s authority over his wife.[78][79] One exception, however, was the 1641 Body of Liberties of the Massachusetts Bay colonists, which declared that a married woman should be “free from bodilie correction or stripes by her husband.”[80]

Political agitation during the 19th century led to changes in both popular opinion and legislation regarding domestic violence within the United Kingdom and the United States.[81][82] In 1850, Tennessee became the first state in the United States to explicitly outlaw wife beating.[83][84] Other states soon followed suit.[79][85]

In 1878, the Matrimonial Causes Act made it possible for women in the UK to seek separations from abusive husbands.[86] By the end of the 1870s, most courts in the United States were uniformly opposed to the right of husbands to physically discipline their wives.[87] By the early 20th century, it was common for the police to intervene in cases of domestic violence in the United States, but arrests remained rare.[88] Wife beating was made illegal in all states of the United States by 1920.[89][90]

Wikipedia, “Domestic Violence in the United States”

And might I add, You go, Massachussetts!

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Kat
I live in Massachusetts. It’s one of the more progressive states, but very cold and with too much snow in the winter.
The strange thing about progressiveness in Massachusetts is that it’s over all blue, but there are a lot of anti choice Catholics here as well, so whenever I go past the local Planned Parenthood there are almost always protestors and all the churches have anti abortion signs out front.
Although we did ban violence against wives, I regret to note that like all 49 other states, it is still legal to beat children in Massachusetts. Hopefully one day that will change.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

@ naglfar

there are almost always protestors

You may find this interesting (or maybe not; I offer no warranties!). It’s about how the authorities have used a new procedure here to stop protests like that.

We’re following this closely because we anticipate being hit by such an order for something planned for October.

https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2019/08/30/the-line-between-legitimate-protest-and-anti-social-behaviour/

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Alan Robertshaw
In America, there is a federal law that prohibits blocking the doors of the Planned Parenthood directly, so the protestors gather around in front to the sides of the door or on the other side of the street.

I can’t stand anti abortion protestors. I was once talking to a conservative and he mentioned that he was ok with abortion in the case of rape and incest. I asked if he was ok with it in cases where women couldn’t support the baby, and he replied “no, because she shouldn’t have been having sex then”. It was that line which made it abundantly clear that the only purpose of his stance was to shame female sexuality and had nothing to do with his beliefs on life. I imagine most conservatives are the same in this regard.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

@ naglfar

so the protestors gather around in front to the sides of the door or on the other side of the street.

Yeah; the appellants’ argument here was that they weren’t physically stopping anyone; but the court held the distress caused was the mischief the Act was introduced to prevent. So it was lawful to limit the protests to a zone where they couldn’t be seen or heard by people attending the clinic.

Any yup; don’t think there’s anything controversial about what you say about motives. No doubt there are a few Jainists and similar who come from an ethical stance; but the political stuff is purely about control.

Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
1 year ago

Why does one of theses guys even mention the used underwear industry?

I can only infer that it’s meant to be an indicator that many men are feeling sexually deprived (due to women’s selfish and probably unhealthy dating choices), assuming this particular thing is a popular method for coping with loneliness (rather than a very specific fetish for very specific people).

Or perhaps not “popular” as such but rather “extreme”, implying that some men are feeling highly desperate in their loneliness. Though in that case, even if true, it wouldn’t say much about the broader male population. In any case, the disapproving tone of the writer fails to offer much sympathy for what he apparently considers an unhealthy coping method of disenfranchised (other) people.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 year ago

@Onager: How does one view the “techinasia” link without letting them run JS on one’s machine? I’ve tried every trick in the book to read the article while denying them, and nothing seems to work: disabling CSS, google cache, even view source. The latter doesn’t show anything that looks like the article content anywhere, nor any URL that can be constructed to go there (just advertising tracking beacons and similar garbage).

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

It’s like dealing with a hydra. Every time one of them finally leaves me alone, three more pop up to continue arguing.

On Twitter, I would generally advise against arguing with TERFs and other assorted regressives, unless you’re enjoying yourself. Interacting with them is only going to get their odious views exposed to more eyeballs (those of your followers and also that of the algorithm).

Arguing with them isn’t going to change their views, so unless you think you can sway their followers, arguing with them until you’re exhausted isn’t likely to accomplish very much.

Another option would be to just keep posting trans-positive things on your account. And blocking any comments on it that are attempting to pick a fight. It will piss off the TERFs without you or your followers needing to deal with their bullshit over and over again.

Allandrel
Allandrel
1 year ago

@Naglfar

Regarding Massachusetts in the 17th century, it’s odd how people can be simultaneously good on some issues and monstrous on others. Massachusetts was banning domestic violence during the same period that they were hanging Quakers.

Your experience talking with a “pro-lifer” is far from unique. I have found that if I engage with any “pro-lifer” long enough, they will admit that they think pregnancy is a punishment for having sex, and that women seeking abortions are trying to “get out of” the consequences of their bad behavior.

NiOg, the Lurker in Dorkness
NiOg, the Lurker in Dorkness
1 year ago

@Rabid Rabbit’s comment,

Hey, just delurking to remind folks that the “lizard people” jokes are based on antisemitic conspiracy theories (Yeah, literally all of them. Sorry, Pellucidar fans) and serve the specific purpose of driving people towards white supremacy.

Maybe don’t spread them around, you know?

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Allandrel

Regarding Massachusetts in the 17th century, it’s odd how people can be simultaneously good on some issues and monstrous on others. Massachusetts was banning domestic violence during the same period that they were hanging Quakers.

Don’t forget the Salem Witch Trials a few years later, either. It is certainly possible for states to have made some progressive moves early but also done some very problematic things.

Your experience talking with a “pro-lifer” is far from unique. I have found that if I engage with any “pro-lifer” long enough, they will admit that they think pregnancy is a punishment for having sex, and that women seeking abortions are trying to “get out of” the consequences of their bad behavior.

Every anti choicer that I’ve spoken to has either cracked like you said and admitted that, or has started screaming at me about how I murder babies and am practically Hitler in their eyes. The key when arguing with these people is to stay completely calm and they’ll realize they’re not getting anywhere. Pretty much all their arguments come down to appeals to emotion with no scientific backing. If you don’t show emotion, they aren’t getting what they want.

In general, it’s a waste of time to argue with these people, though. Much like the aforementioned TERFs, there’s just too many of them and they are so deeply emotionally invested that they are unlikely to even hear any argument you make.

Lainy
Lainy
1 year ago

I’ve had one dude take dirty underwear from the campus laundry room. Is he just an even more desperate looking person in incels eyes?

Jackson Ayres
Jackson Ayres
1 year ago

Put down the rabbit, Lenny.

They want to love, but only know how to hurt.

More seriously, it’s not really “love” that they want; their words and actions make it clear that what they really want is somebody to dominate and abuse. They have no respect for women, and love can’t be born from that. I’d bet that many of these incels have been abusive in past relationships – and if they hadn’t previously, they surely would now. They’re mean, rabid dogs.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Jackson Ayres

I’d bet that many of these incels have been abusive in past relationships – and if they hadn’t previously, they surely would now.

Like this guy.

More seriously, it’s not really “love” that they want; their words and actions make it clear that what they really want is somebody to dominate and abuse.

In general, if I knew someone who wanted to dominate others, I would recommend that they get involved with BDSM, but the problem is that incels will never respect boundaries and respecting your sub’s boundaries is essential for safe BDSM. An incel would be a very dangerous dom, and it would no longer be BDSM but abuse. In fact, I would hope that if any incels tried to enter a BDSM group that they would quickly be turned away for the safety of everyone else in the group.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
1 year ago

with respect to ‘how’s Boris looking these days’…
Another blog I follow had a post called Today’s Brexit Infographic: Boris Johnson’s majority as measured by his face with an animated image of Johnson’s face looking like somebody dropped a pudding onto the floor.

(The person who writes that blog is basically an ex-pat Brit living in Australia, from what I recall.)

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
1 year ago

My apologies for the derail, but this seems like the most appropriate thread still active to ask for an OT request for domestic violence/abuse resources.

Sooooo…the granddaughter of one of my coworkers is having trouble with an abusive ex boyfriend. I don’t know anywhere near everything that’s going on there, beyond the fact that the girl is 17, and that things have gotten to the point that a restraining order is needed, and will be sought out tomorrow morning when the courts open again.

The grandmother has taken some steps to keep her granddaughter safe from this guy, but I suspect that they’ll need some better resources/advice to continue doing so. Already they know that the girl will have to change her cellphone number; the guy had a friend call her and ask some very nasty questions (I gather most of these were pornographic in nature).

So does anyone have any good links about what to do in this kind of situation? I told the coworker that I’d look up some resources for her, but I know very little about these kinds of situations, beyond what I’ve read here and in other feminist-leaning blogs. I figure the links in the sidebar here would be a start, but those seem more focused on cyberstalking than meatspace problems. We live in rural Indiana, and I don’t know what-all’s available for help and advice here, outside of the local womens’ shelter.

My thanks in advance for any help anyone here chooses to give.

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 year ago

@RedsilkPhoenix:

I don’t want to compromise anonymity more than absolutely necessary, but to give good resources that are relevant, we need to know

1) Country of residence
2) Metropolitan area (or at least Canton/Department/Province/State),
and
3) is the daughter queer or trans?

Thanks in advance. If I can help, I will.

Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, Intergalactic Meanie
1 year ago

@Crip Dyke,

1. USA.
2. Rural/smalltown Indiana.
3. To the best of my knowledge, no on both.

solecism
solecism
1 year ago

@Redsilkphoenix:

For the internet/online piece of the puzzle:
http://www.crashoverridenetwork.com/resources.html

From the inimitable Captain Awkward:
https://captainawkward.com/2018/09/06/1143-talking-about-emotional-abuse-and-leaving-my-marriage-with-my-potential-support-network/
https://captainawkward.com/2017/05/09/959-how-much-fighting-in-a-new-relationship-is-too-much-spoiler-this-is-way-too-muchoh-god-break-up-now/
https://captainawkward.com/2013/12/15/529-unfun-with-tenses-you-had-an-abuser-you-have-a-stalker/
https://captainawkward.com/2013/05/21/480-post-breakup-friend-custody-with-a-gross-congealed-moldy-side-of-stalking/

Those posts contain links to resources such as domestic violence hotlines and recommended reading such as Why Does He Do That? Hopefully at least one of them will contain advice that your coworker and their granddaughter can use.

In fact, if you do a search of “stalk” on Captain Awkward’s site, you will see how many questions she’s answered that involve stalking behavior. It is far more common than most of us realize, it is the outside-world aspect of domestic violence, and it is not your coworker’s granddaughter’s fault. She doesn’t deserve this, she didn’t cause it, and the only person responsible for it is her abusive ex.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

@redsilkphoenix – a friend passed this link along

https://www.thehotline.org/

They say that one of the purposes of this org is to create a list of local and relevant resources in the US.

Good luck, this is a shitty situation to deal with. :/

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 year ago

@Rhuu: That’s a good one for folks in the USA. I used to know some of the people who ran it, and they were great people back then. They did a lot of work to try to institutionalize good, survivor-centered practices, so I’m willing to bet it’s still staffed by folks just as good.