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mass shooting open thread white supremacy

UPDATED: 2nd mass shooting in Dayton leaves 9 dead. Open Thread: El Paso mass shooting by white supremacist, 20 dead

UPDATE: Now there has been a second mass shooting in less than 24 hours, In Dayton Ohio, leaving nine dead. Shooter was wearing body armor.

Another mass shooter, this time in and around a Walmart in El Paso, Texas. Reliable information is hard to come by at this early stage but we know that the shooting suspect is in custody and that there have been 20 fatalities.

The shooter left behind a manifesto, posted shortly before the shooting on 8chan. He said he was inspired by the Christchurch shooter, and declared that his attack was “a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas.”

Post your thoughts and any reliable information you have in the thread below. No trolls.

UPDATE: Updated with # of fatalities and a few changes in wording about the manifesto allegedly written by the shooter.

UPDATE 2: Updated with news of the Dayton shooting and to make clear that the el paso manifesto has been definitively tied to the alleged shooter.

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Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 year ago

8chan was at LONG LAST dropped by cloudflare.

It took way too much time. But at least some small victories happen despite the governement being on the side of the murderers.

K.
K.
1 year ago

Seems like the Dayton shooter was a fucking incel.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/classmates-ohio-shooter-kept-hit-033305480.html

High school classmates of the gunman who killed nine people early Sunday in Dayton, Ohio, say he was suspended for compiling a “hit list” of those he wanted to kill and a “rape list” of girls he wanted to sexually assault.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@K.
Why am I not surprised? We need to treat incels as the terrorism threat they are and work on deradicalization. And no, “enforced monogamy” is not the solution. The solution is reducing the aggrieved entitlement and toxic masculinity that produced these groups.

Franco Sammarco
Franco Sammarco
1 year ago

Two points in that Yahoo report concerning details of the incident stand out:

1) the presence of presumably uniformed armed police (‘good guys with guns’) did nothing to dissuade the shooter (As they would not have done for anyone factoring in suicide by cop as the final detail of their atrocity)

2) the shooter was apparently fatally shot by said police in under one minute after he opened fire. But this was still enough time for him to gun down nine people and presumably injure several more.

The fact that the ammosexual element will doubtless find ways to excuse this only further convinces me that they are a death cult.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
1 year ago

@Naglfar

Not gonna happen unfortunately, not while these motherfuckers are in power. Fascism in America is accelerating, alongside Trump’s narrative. As a matter of fact, didn’t he purposefully shut down the department of DHS which collected intelligence on White Supremacists for the FBI right before the Christchurch massacre?

And just recently Facebook decided that “incel” is a slur and is banning people and pages over it. The Left needs to start organizing now and protesting everywhere, before it’s too late.

Allandrel
Allandrel
1 year ago

@Moggie

That Rivera quote,

In the meantime, there must be active-shooter trained, heavily armed security personnel every place innocents are gathered.

is a pretty good indicator at a major reason that conservatives refuse to do anything to prevent mass shootings. It isn’t just the gun manufacturer lobby or the murder-binky collectors. It’s that by creating an environment of fear over unpredictable but inevtitable violence, people will be begging for a police state the likes of which would make Stalin sit up in his grave.

Note that this security theater for mass shooters never involves policing the potential mass shooters (white men), but their potential victims (everybody). That’s not an accident.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Diego Duarte
Incel is a slur now? That makes absolutely no sense. I don’t use Facebook, but calling the actual names of various right wing militant groups slurs to shut down criticism is the definition of censorship.
Another day, another case of conservative hypocrisy. We do need to organize if we want any hope of surviving the next few years.

Jen
Jen
1 year ago

@Naglfar, they’ve considered “TERF” a slur for a while now, so why not? -__- Calling out hate is the same as calling people hateful terms, apparently. Or actually worse, really, because they’re fine with the privileged people attacking oppressed people as “freedom of speech.” That’s why complaining about white men gets me a 30 day ban but reporting someone for saying women need to be raped does not “violate community standards.”

Allandrel
Allandrel
1 year ago

Incel is a slur? But… that’s what they call themselves. What terrorist-enabling BS.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
1 year ago

At the very least they consider it “harassment” and “bullying”. I was an admin at “What in the 9th circle of incel hell is this bullshit?” and we got Zucc’ed over it. Initially we thought it was a post that didn’t cover up the name of an asshole, but when we remade the group it got insta Zucc’ed.

It wasn’t until the personal bans came that we realized it was because the word “incel” had been banned.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Jen
I was aware that TERF was now considered a slur, which similarly makes no sense. I recall white supremacists used to be fond of saying that calling them racists “derailed the conversation” because they didn’t like being called out for what they were. Now, calling bullshit out for what it is gets you banned. Is social media actively trying to curate hate groups? What’s next, “racist” and “misogynist” being considered slurs?
As well, regarding the TERF thing, it seems that a lot of TERFs claim that it is a slur (old TERF troll Sly Fawkes said this shortly before being banned), even though it is not a slur but a label for a reactionary form of hate. I haven’t even heard any incels claim that incel is a slur though.

@Allandrel
I know, it makes no sense, but when has that ever stopped a policy?

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
1 year ago

Paul Waldman has a very disturbing but interesting piece in the Washington Post this morning: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/05/how-trumps-biggest-broken-promise-will-make-white-supremacist-terrorism-even-worse/?utm_term=.8d6767d04f51

In part: “It’s hard to overstate the symbolic importance that last part [“Build the Wall”] had for many Trump supporters, even if it was preposterous from the beginning. The idea of forcing Mexico to pay for the wall was about dominance, restoring our dignity by humiliating our neighbor to the south. This was the beating heart of what Trump promised, especially to white men who felt the world had shoved them aside: not just practical results but also a restoration of strength and stature.

And if you were one of those men, what do you see around you? You might love Trump for the things he says, but you might also come to believe he has failed you.

America has not been cleansed. The wall is not built, and Mexico has paid for nothing. There are no fewer immigrants in the United States than there were in 2016. Trump has not stopped the “invasion” or the “infestation”; instead, on an almost daily basis, he tells us it’s getting worse. Muslims are still here; a few of them are even in Congress. Women keep occupying more positions of prominence, and insisting that men be held to account for behavior that once was seen as their privilege. The clock Trump promised to wind back to a time when America was great has stubbornly continued to tick into the future.”

I am not sure what will lead to more White MALE Supremacist killings — Trump winning in 2020 or Trump losing in 2020. But I’m pretty sure that the death toll will be in the thousands. Trump represents — in the minds of his supporters — the last chance to preserve the United States as a bastion of white male dominance. They see a diverse society as an unmitigated horror. It is toxic masculinity at its very worst.

I think the fundamental problem is the old masculine role model is almost dead but far too many men have not been able to find another model that allows them to fit into the society that is in the process of being born. They are trying to play the game by the old rules that they were taught and are frustrated and angry that they no longer win the rewards they were taught to expect. If you have been taught to believe that white men are the natural dominators of society, and you are not dominant, it’s difficult not to see that as an injustice or a consequence of one’s own inadequacy — things that people tend to react badly to, and male people often with violence. Our society has undergone huge changes in the 70+ years I’ve been alive and many people just don’t adapt well.

Aleph
Aleph
1 year ago

And once again our politicians fall back on blaming video games, because that’s the only thing they’re good for.

My, I didn’t know this was still 1999.

I just find it hypocritical that people say that we shouldn’t blame guns, yet make no qualms in blaming something that has not been found to create mass murderers. I think we know that they know what the real problem is and will not address it to not lose their racist base.

Vote them out I say, we still got about a year.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
1 year ago

@Aleph

Vote them out I say, we still got about a year.

You don’t. The escalation in Trump’s policies, the dismantling of institutions, the arrest and attempted deportation of US citizens, his transformation over the past couple of weeks (into an even more open racist) are all the telltale signs that he is getting ready to embrace open fascism.

There is a strong likelihood that he might come up with some bullshit to indefinitely “postpone” the elections, or just declare them null and void if he loses. For those of us who have dealt with or lived under dictatorships the signs are there.

He is escalating, dangerously fast now. The elections are not a guarantee, he needs to be protested, he needs to be impeached, while you still have the chance.

K.
K.
1 year ago

https://slate.com/technology/2019/08/video-games-shootings-el-paso-gamergate-8chan-connection.html

The calls from Republicans for parents to stop letting their kids play games (Patrick), or to use gaming behavior to identify potential shooters ahead of time (McCarthy), seem desperate in their attempt to make the conversation about anything other than the availability of guns or the rise of violent white supremacy. But, although these Republicans probably don’t know it, there is a clear and obvious connection between video games, white nationalist terrorism, and the image board where the El Paso shooter posted his manifesto. That connection is Gamergate, the campaign of misogynistic harassment by aggrieved gamers that began in 2014, and which moved to 8chan from 4chan when the latter refused to allow Gamergaters to use that board for coordinated harassment campaigns and doxing.

Aleph
Aleph
1 year ago

@Diego Duarte well, if that’s the case it was already too late when Trump got elected because if he gets impeached we’ll just have the theocrat Pense to replace him (am I correct on that one?) who might actually follow the Handmaid’s Tale as an instruction manual, not to mention he might continue the president’s fascism.

Guess I’ll renounce my citizenship and self-deport then, although one can fear that a fascist USA will just invade its neighbors to finish the job the original fascists couldn’t.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

If Trump gets impeached, can’t he just refuse to leave office? If he can postpone or cancel elections, what’s stopping him from refusing to accept impeachment?

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 year ago

Check this article, it’s really spot-on

https://slate.com/technology/2019/08/video-games-shootings-el-paso-gamergate-8chan-connection.html

It speaks to House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, and Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick, who tried to blame the shootings on violent video games

Victorious Parasol
1 year ago

Impeachment doesn’t necessarily lead to removal from office. But I’d like to see us draw that line in the sand.

I don’t think Trump would resign, unless he can frame resignation as some sort of victory, kinda like what Sarah Palin did when she decided to quit being Alaska’s governor. I’m not sure what such a framing would be, but I bet Trump could come up with one, especially if someone could nudge him in the proper direction. Who that someone would be, I have no idea.

Aleph
Aleph
1 year ago

@Naglfar ditto that, if all of that is true then it’s too late, we should all flee from this country while we still have a chance just like the Jews who managed to cross the Atlantic when they had time.

But if it isn’t then I’ll just stand by my resolution to vote.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 year ago

@Naglfar:

If Trump gets impeached, can’t he just refuse to leave office?

If Pence orders the Secret Service to throw him out, then he definitely can’t. I’m not sure about otherwise. I suspect that Pence *would* do that if he absolutely refused to leave, because Trump is an obstacle to his vision of Theocracy. I would not, however, be surprised if Pence arranged for him to get out of the country so he can’t be tried for state-level financial crimes out of some sort of “respect”, since only Governors can issue pardons for those.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Victorious Parasol
I think he would repeatedly refuse to resign, then turn it into a rallying cry for his supporters. “No resignation!” they would shout at his rallies.

@Snowberry
I somewhat doubt Pence would do that. He says God wants him to be VP, so he’ll try to stay there rather than build his theocracy as President. Pence is likely worse than Trump because he might actually know how to get a BS theocratic fascist agenda through.

@Aleph
Most of the Jews who tried to come to America before the war were turned away, so that might not be the best analogy.

I do worry about political violence before the 2020 election, since Trump has made it clear that he condones militant white supremacist terrorism. And then when violence breaks out, he’ll blame it on the left.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 year ago

If Trump gets impeached, can’t he just refuse to leave office?

I think the House Sergeant-at-Arms arrests him… but that’s based on memory which is specious at best….

We do need to research this, not because he will be impeached (since there is less than zero chance he would be convicted) but because on the odd chance he is defeated in 2020, I’m 99.999% certain he will refuse to leave office.

Aleph
Aleph
1 year ago

@Naglfar true, there aren’t alot of successful examples to compare to, if any.

If we’re to assume the worst, we’re screwed unless revolution is organized now, it might be our only chance in stopping fascism for sure. I doubt that’ll happen so you can stick with what I said earlier.

If the terror attack manages to finally discourage immigrants from coming in, the president and the alt-right got what they wanted and it’s proof that ruling by force and terror always works, short term at least.

Monday Middlemarch
Monday Middlemarch
1 year ago

So – Daily Stormer and 8Chan are offline. Will anyone host them again? I hope not, but not holding my breath.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/08/8chan-briefly-got-back-online-with-same-cdn-used-by-neo-nazi-daily-stormer/

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 year ago

@Naglfar: People who know Pence have stated that he has been trying to go for the Presidency from day one – his disastrous term as Governor of Indiana was supposed to be a stepping stone towards that (the three most common paths to the presidency are VP, Senator, or Governor). Of course “God” wants him to be VP – because that means a shot at the real prize.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Aleph

short term at least.

Fascism only works short term generally, and for all neo-Nazis’ talk of stability, it is inherently unstable. As a result, it might be possible to stop the fascists before they take full control.
We also have evidence that Trump’s policies have actually increased undocumented border crossings, the number of migrants crossing is at a record high.
In general, I follow what I call the Law of Means: most things aren’t quite as bad as the worst case scenario or as good as the best case scenario. I am getting very worried though, as I can see at least 5 worse and worse case scenarios, and the best case scenario is highly unlikely.

Aleph
Aleph
1 year ago

@Naglfar of course, I forget that fascism is essentially an utopian ideology and when you seek utopia you’re always doomed to fail, not without leaving a huge body count as history has shown though.

solecism
solecism
1 year ago

@Aleph

Guess I’ll renounce my citizenship and self-deport then

I get where you’re coming from, I really do. But every person who says this and means it is showing their privileged ass and following their self-interest. Again, I get it. But it would be just the latest iteration of White Flight. (And I know not everyone saying this is white, but then it’s class privilege or some other type.)

Only a very small subset of the people who will be (are being) harmed actually have the opportunity to vote with their feet like this. The most vulnerable and marginalized generally have no choice but to stay and take it/resist. I’d rather stay and do my best to shield others.

It is the white liberal’s devil’s bargain–save ourselves/put on our own oxygen masks, or voluntarily share the oppression of others in the hope of changing things but the real possibility of not actually helping make it better.

Aleph
Aleph
1 year ago

@solecism I know where you’re coming from, that was my exact reaction when celebrities said they’d leave after Trump came in as they’d be leaving the people they claim to stand up for to their fate. Thing is, me being of Mexican origin and the fact my (adoptive) hometown got attacked makes it a bit scarier, and if we’re to listen to what others have said here then it seems a fascist takeover is inevitable and no amount of voting will prevent that. Again if that’s the case why don’t we all run for our lives while we still can?

Otherwise, that was more of a sarcastic remark because I have no intention of doing so, I still believe in the power of voting and thank you for reminding me why, so my apologies if I sounded like a privileged ass.

Aleph
Aleph
1 year ago

@soleicism also, I know that was not your intention but the president and his supporters can tell me to go back precisely to help people affacted by violence (just like he did to the senators) and make “things better”, and it was the violence that many of us were trying to flee from in the first place.

solecism
solecism
1 year ago

@Aleph,

Thank you for replying kindly to my comment. Yeah, it’s easy for me in the comfort of my relatively unaffected city to point to the problem when people say stuff about fleeing to safety, and I’m sorry for singling you out when really I am reacting to too many people in my immediate orbit expressing such sentiments. I apologize for targeting you unfairly with accusations of comfortable privilege.

I am sorry that your options are to flee from white supremacy violence in El Paso by returning to violence in Mexico, or stay for white supremacy violence where you would be more of a target than I would. Neither situation is okay. And I am sorry that this is an immediate, visceral fear because of personal experience and not the more generalized existential dread so many of us have been feeling for so long.

I think my goal in staying is to be available for some form of a new underground railroad and other resistance efforts. I need some way to constructively channel this anger that is eating at me.

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 year ago

Amid all the arguments about mass shootings being related to mental illness, I saw someone sarcastically point out that women have slightly higher rates of mental illness than men, which is why we have so many female mass shooters.

Laserqueen
Laserqueen
1 year ago

Daytonian Mammother here. I wasn’t anywhere near the Oregon District Saturday night. The district is a huge success story and pulls in many from the surrounding suburbs. Most suburbanites frightened of the city (I lived in the city from 1990 – 1998- it was great) at least feel comfortable in the Oregon District. It was a lovely summer night and open air patios were the place to be. Not quite Bourbon Street, but our version anyway.

Because we are such a huge USAF and defense industry town, our population is more diverse racially and culturally than one might expect of Ohio. (Two big universities as well)

I don’t know how the culture will change- I do know that there are first hand accounts from AF members that will carry some weight with some of the folk thinking things are just fine in this country.

Sorry for the ramble- we are reeling here and processing. And making plans to head to the Oregon Distrct to support the neighborhood.

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 year ago

Thanks for the info, Laserqueen, and I hope you are recovering from your reeling and learning from your processing.

solecism
solecism
1 year ago

Thanks for checking in, Laserqueen. Best wishes to you and everyone else in Dayton recovering from this terrorism.

Katamount
1 year ago

CW: A morbid meditation on terrible events of the past.

*sigh* When I heard about this on Sunday morning, as I was doing my usual gaming grind, I found that in my need to wrap my brain around this mindset, I was bringing up some PBS docs that I recalled watching many years ago. One was a Frontline doc about Kip Kinkel that aired around 2001, another was made by American Experience about the Oklahoma City bombing that was made a couple of years ago. I also watched a slightly-more sensational British doc on Columbine, which delved more into the history of Klebold and Harris.

I did this to try to put myself back in those days and try to glean any kind of insight that I could bring forward to today. I didn’t come away with as much as I’d like, but I definitely found echoes of Oklahoma City insofar as the “invasion” mentality that came with The Turner Diaries and Camp of the Saints. My memories of Oklahoma City were particularly vivid as my babysitter had the TV set to the 12 o’clock news at lunchtime and 1995 was all OJ all the time until April 19th when suddenly it was all Oklahoma City and Timothy McVeigh for a few weeks. People were shocked that it wasn’t some Middle Eastern terrorist like the Blind Sheikh that had bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, but a crew-cutted white guy who was “one of them.”

It’s kinda scary to think about it, but the Oklahoma City doc profiled how McVeigh traveled the US to find those that shared the militant anti-government mindset, particularly those in northern Idaho. He was actually passing out anti-government bumper stickers at Waco during the siege. Fast forward a quarter-century and not only do you have crowds that dwarf those that gathered at Waco showing up at places like Charlottesville, but the President is directly using the language of the white supremacist militias of the 90s, which was (and still is) all about invasion. McVeigh had to get in a car and drive thousands of miles across the United States to find that community and validation in 1993. 25 years later, it’s a mouse-click away and on the President’s very tongue.

*sigh* At least I got Taste of the Danforth to look forward to next weekend.

solecism
solecism
1 year ago

@Katamount,

Yeah, I remember. I was in Peace Corps at the time, and at first I didn’t understand what had happened. I caught part of a news headline in Spanish, or someone mentioned it to me, and I was dubious because nothing happens in Oklahoma City that would ever make international news. But then I was able to catch the evening news, plus the obligatory Newsweek subscription covered it pretty extensively. I remember being totally not shocked that it was a white guy who did it and that everyone first leapt to Muslims being the suspects.

But then, I am smiling at every reminder that we are in effect experiencing a Reconquista here in the USA, and I am appreciating it as a form of justice. It’s a hella lot more peaceful and nonviolent than the Reconquista that happened in Spain in terms of our Latinx “invaders” (spoiler: not really invaders) who just want to coexist and find a place to thrive. Even though I am not smiling at the violence and desperation back home that is driving this mass movement northward, and the role of our government and business interests in creating those conditions in people’s home countries.

Moggie
Moggie
1 year ago

Wake up.
Check twitter.
The fuck?
Wonder why the hell everyone is talking about 30-50 feral hogs.
Check twitter some more.
What is this emotion I’m feeling? Is it… joy?

It’s certainly been a… thing, seeing the glee with with the Internet has pounced on the hogs. Almost as if everyone was in dire need of some levity.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Moggie
I noticed the thing about hogs. Can someone fill me in on what that was all about?

Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
1 year ago
Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

Can someone please explain the feral hog business? How did it get started, and what’s happening?

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

I quite enjoyed David’s tweet about the hogs.

https://twitter.com/DavidFutrelle/status/1158523214110310401?s=19

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

I would like this hog thing a lot more if it wasn’t a white nationalist dogwhistle. The hog thing is funny if you ignore that part, but rather irresponsible.

Moggie
Moggie
1 year ago

What? Are you telling me I’ve been milkshake hogged?

rv97
1 year ago

The NRA and some on the right will blame “violent video games” or pornography for shootings. I find this disgusting, as someone whose media of choice is games. I don’t prefer the extremely violent ones though, at most just Grand Theft Auto for its mechanics. And tell me, is Minecraft gonna get banned because you can kill people with weapons or fists in that game, even though the whole point of the game is to build and survive?
Also, those who will rattle on about abortion taking more lives than shootings need to shut up. Preventing abortions can’t guarantee someone can survive a shooting, for one. Any fucker can use a gun to kill people or injure them severely, while abortions can only be successfully performed by licensed medical professionals wherever it’s widely available, with it causing little to no pain at least for the mother I believe.

Moggie
Moggie
1 year ago

It’s not just the vidyagames which cause mass shootings. Republican Ohio state representative Candice Keller has a list:

“Why not place the blame where it belongs,” she then wrote. “The breakdown of the traditional American family(thank you, transgender, homosexual marriage, and drag queen advocates); fatherlessness, a subject no one discusses or believes is relevant; the ignoring of violent video games; the relaxing of laws against criminals(open borders); the acceptance of recreational marijuana; failed school policies (hello, parents who defend misbehaving students): disrespect to law enforcement (thank you, Obama), hatred of our veterans (thank you professional athletes who hate our flag and National Anthem); the Dem Congress; many members whom are openly anti-Semitic; the culture, which totally ignores the importance of God and the church (until they elect a president); state officeholders, who have no interest whatsoever in learning about out Constitution and the Second Amendment; and snowflakes, who can’t respect a duly-elected President.”

Drag, kneeling and snowflakes also caused the fall of Rome probably.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Moggie
It always infuriates me when Republicans try to pretend that the Democratic Party is the antisemitic one, when a large number of Republicans are openly antisemitic in a way no Democrats are, and Republicans openly embrace neo-Nazis. There’s a reason about 85% of American Jews voted Democratic in the midterms.

Katamount
1 year ago

@Moggie

I always found the vidya games one particularly comical given just how primitive so much of the video games that teeth were gnashed about really were. In the Columbine doc I watched, it included a couple clips of DOOM levels that Eric Harris had programmed and posted online. DOOM was certainly more violent than, say, Myst, which was the other “killer app” for the CD-ROM, but it was still hilariously low-resolution blood.

The Star Trek reviewer SFDebris pointed out that in Star Trek: TNG‘s third episode (the racist one, sadly), Tasha Yar brings a guest onto the holodeck, has it create a martial arts sparring partner and proceeds to wail on the guy. The exchange goes something like this:

Lutan: You can create people… without a soul?
Yar: It is a hologram, Lutan. It has no life.

So even Star Trek in 1987 was totally cool with violent gaming. And yet conservatives were willing to blame a low-res computer game and Marilyn Manson for something that clearly had several far more relevant contributing factors (chief among them being easy access to firearms).