Categories
mass shooting open thread white supremacy

UPDATED: 2nd mass shooting in Dayton leaves 9 dead. Open Thread: El Paso mass shooting by white supremacist, 20 dead

UPDATE: Now there has been a second mass shooting in less than 24 hours, In Dayton Ohio, leaving nine dead. Shooter was wearing body armor.

Another mass shooter, this time in and around a Walmart in El Paso, Texas. Reliable information is hard to come by at this early stage but we know that the shooting suspect is in custody and that there have been 20 fatalities.

The shooter left behind a manifesto, posted shortly before the shooting on 8chan. He said he was inspired by the Christchurch shooter, and declared that his attack was “a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas.”

Post your thoughts and any reliable information you have in the thread below. No trolls.

UPDATE: Updated with # of fatalities and a few changes in wording about the manifesto allegedly written by the shooter.

UPDATE 2: Updated with news of the Dayton shooting and to make clear that the el paso manifesto has been definitively tied to the alleged shooter.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

179 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Ohlmann
Ohlmann
1 year ago

The arguments from the NRAs and thoses “thoughs and prayer” shambling mounds that pass for politicians are completely nonsensical. From the other side of the Atlantic, it feel like the USA really, badly need an actual revolution.

I mean, Obama definitely showed that democrats won’t do anything about that. Republicans will continue to encourage it for political gains. What will be the way out that don’t involve a radical upheaval ?

Amnesia
Amnesia
1 year ago

I had a very jaded reaction to the latest shootings. First thing I thought was, ‘At least it wasn’t a school or place of worship this time.’

… So tired of this.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Ohlmann
I live in America and I too would like a new government. I can’t say more, for fear of violating the comments policy, but I will note that I am pretty fed up with Pelosi not impeaching. She may not be as vile as Trump, but she is definitely playing into his hands.

Greebos left eye
Greebos left eye
1 year ago

Oh dear gods, no, not again.

Weasel-Rah
Weasel-Rah
1 year ago

It wasn’t a school or a place of worship this time because shootings have become so common in those places that there is security against it. On to the next soft targets.
Dayton is my hometown, spent the morning checking in. Still haven’t heard from some people, I hope they’re ok.
The attack was in what passes for our gallery/nightclub district, a street full of indie music and queer-friendly bars, only a few blocks long. It’s the same neighborhood that turned out so magnificently to repel the KKK rally a few months ago. This feels like… a retaliation.

Aleph
Aleph
1 year ago

@Weasel-Rah which is why I feared that someone else read the manifesto and decided to do a copycat shooting, thankfully not as successful.

Like I said, how many people will have to die before something is done about this? People have no right to complain about Muslim societies not doing anything about Jihadists if these people are our equivalent to them.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Aleph
Not to mention that most American Muslims and Muslim organizations have repeatedly condemned jihad and ISIS, but Republicans refuse to condemn white supremacists, which are a much bigger threat than any Islamic terrorist group.

Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
Yutolia the Laissez-Fairy Pronoun Boner
1 year ago

re:a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas…

I frequently hear white people, particularly ones who just moved here from the Midwest, complaining about this in Colorado. I then ask them if they are aware that Colorado used to be part of Mexico. Usually people are surprised, since for some reason we don’t teach this stuff. Most of the people they’re complaining about’s families have been in the same place since before the Mexican War.

re: blaming mental illness

Mental illness isn’t the problem, Governor. What we need are things that teach little white boys from an early age that the world isn’t there just to take care of them.

anon
anon
1 year ago

U.S. shootings are not a mental health crisis.

These shooters arent mentally ill people who were unable to get help and are under some sort of delusion.

They are neurotypical white men with a politicial agenda.

Funding mental health care will reduce suicides but wont do much for murders except to help some potential victims escape abusive households, since mentally ill people are more at risk of *being murdered*

Being angry enough to kill is not mentally healthy, but it isnt the behavior of mentally ill people, it is the behavior of entitled people.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Yutolia
Exactly. Entitlement is the real issue, and blaming it on mental illness only reinforces the stigma around mental illness in general. Which is what conservatives want, to draw attention away from the real issue of radicalization of the right wing in America.

numerobis
numerobis
1 year ago

My reaction is like that of hearing about a cat bomb in Iraq, or some hospital getting shelled in Syria — oh that’s awful, but then, it happens so often they kind of blur together.

I lived in Squirrel Hill, so the Tree of Life massacre touched me. I’ve been to Gilroy on the way to some hiking. But without some personal connection I’m pretty much tuning the massacres out anymore.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

I wish I knew what it would take for the American public to finally rise up and say no more to the system that allows so much violence and death.

numerobis
numerobis
1 year ago

Catalpa: shocking events need to be paired with decent political leaders for any good to come of them.

The US doesn’t really have that latter bit. It has a few decent legislators but none in leadership positions.

Basically nobody in politics has a plan to do diddly-squat about the gun industry. The most crazy Democratic proposals might reduce the death rate by a percent or two. And even then they would likely fall afoul of the courts as being too much.

Gaebolga
Gaebolga
1 year ago

It takes ripping out the whole fucking Rethuglican party – branch and root – and salting the fucking earth they grew from.

Bastards want to talk about “makers and takers”; fucking pass legislation ensuring that states can only get the same percentage of money from the Federal government that they put in through taxes. Start treating alt-right fuckstains like the terrorist organizations that they are – to include going up the chain and prosecuting the pieces of shit that support them, like their fucking families and other hate-driven organizations…then strip the little fucks of their citizenship and dump their asses in Russia. Make all elections – at every level – government funded, and make private political ads or activity a felony punishable by mandatory fines that start at 50% of your net worth – per fucking offense.

…gee; I’m beyond enraged and somehow I’m still not calling for anyone to be killed.

The radical Left sure does have a problem we desperately need to address….

Fucking monsters, every last Rethug in the country.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@numerobis
Because apparently it’s not radical to put children in cages but it is radical to repeal the 2nd amendment and make the NRA known for what it is: a terrorist group.
It’ll take a major change in politics for anything to change. Honestly, I think the only sensible thing to do is go the Australia route and ban all guns and do a buy back program. Gun deaths in Australia dropped dramatically after they did that in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre.
35 people died in the Port Arthur massacre, and Australia was motivated to fix the problem. More people than that have been killed in mass shootings in America since the start of August.

@Gaebolga
Republicans love to entertain some strange fantasy that the problem is coming from both sides. Left wing extremists killed nobody in years. Right wing extremists killed 30 people in 24 hours. As I mentioned earlier, they just want to spread blame.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

@numerobis

That’s a depressing idea. Sandy Hook happened during the Obama administration and still nothing was done. So the Democrats will do nothing, and the Republicans will actively make things worse.

So if it’s up to the government, the only way the shootings will stop is if the entire system is changed.

ObSidJag
ObSidJag
1 year ago

Just finished watching part of a press conference re the El Paso shooting. Local and Federal law enforcement are treating this as a hate crime–and will pursue the death penalty (if I heard that correctly)–as well as domestic terrorism.

That’s something, I suppose, but it won’t bring back the 20 innocents murdered or un-injure the 26 in hospital now.

It also won’t stop the next loser POS wannabe.

Knitting Cat Lady
Knitting Cat Lady
1 year ago

Yesterday, as I went to bed, I said to my mum:

‘I bet the shooter in El Paso is white, male, and under 25.’

Today at breakfast my mum says: ’21 year old white guy’

There’s plenty disenfranchised, disaffected women of all ethnicities, men of colour, LGBTQIA+ people.

And they rarely if ever commit mass violence.

Entitled white men are the problem.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Knitting Cat Lady
I had the same thought. It seems like the most privileged people in the world are the ones who commit the shootings.

numerobis
numerobis
1 year ago

ObSidJag: the death penalty for someone who wanted to die a martyr isn’t much of a punishment.

Hexum7
Hexum7
1 year ago

We need to start a class action suit against every gun manufacturer, every gun merchant and the NRA. That’s the only way to end this- make them pay every American who has had to put up with this shit- has had to live through this nightmare.

We are a nation suffering from PSTD. We live in fear and expect these shootings to happen. and the NRA and munitions sellers are the cause.

And;

IMPEACH THE MOTHERFUCKER ALREADY

Samantha Ravensdaughter
Samantha Ravensdaughter
1 year ago

@knitting cat lady:

You got that right. Women tend to be FAR less violent. And it is not just white men. Around the world, men of all races and colors are the ones committing the majority of violent acts. It seems to me that the only things we can do involve women refusing to serve men, in any capacity.

We will not have a peaceful, creative and loving world until the children are recognized and treated as the true center of all we do. If it becomes illegal to do anything that harms kids, including environmental mistreatment, we might have a shot at creating societies we all want to live in. Sadly, I believe that women have been so mistreated and oppressed for so long that it may be very, very difficult for us to stand together and take the world back for our kids.

Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
1 year ago

Every time a governor, a senator, the President, or anyone else with governmental authority gives an inflammatory speech about immigrants, or Muslims or GSRM people this is what they’re trying to stir up.

Naglfar
Naglfar
1 year ago

@Hexum7
I’d support that lawsuit. I find it hard to put a price tag on all the lives ruined and lost by gun every year. Just drain them of all money they have and drive them out of business.

ObSidJag
ObSidJag
1 year ago

@numerobis:
Oh, I agree, it’s exactly what the waste of carbon and oxygen wants: to be martyred for the “cause.”

The same press conference mentioned how the shooter is cooperating with authorities.

Of fucking course he’s cooperating: this is exactly what he wants, to be able to spread his vile gospel. Mother fucker should be gagged.

numerobis
numerobis
1 year ago

Hexum7: in the wake of the tobacco lawsuits, the gun industry lobbied for and eventually won immunity from such a lawsuit at the federal level (thanks Bush!).

So you have to go at them at the state level, though they might be covered there as well through pre-emption (states rights advocates will of course … be in favor of the fed on this one).

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 year ago

@Naglfar

She may not be as vile as Trump, but she is definitely playing into his hands.

At this point she’s pretty much lost any claim to being less vile. She’s actively aiding and abetting his crimes, she carries the guilt of them as well.

Oriscus
Oriscus
1 year ago

I live in Austin. First thought I had about El Paso, after checking in with friends who live there, was “racist terrorist.” Last night, when I first heard about Dayton, and the neighborhood where the shooting took place, was “incel.”

What a world we’ve allowed to be made.

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 year ago

Please, if you are on twitter, spread this post of mine – or even just the text – as far and wide as you can. Even people who aren’t citizens of or living in the US can make a difference by putting these words in front of others’ eyes:

Amendment XXVIII (Amendment 28 – Clarification of the extent of the right to bear arms):

The careful control of dangerous weapons being necessary to the security of a free people, the right to bear arms shall not be guaranteed by this constitution further than is necessary for the defense of persons, hunting game for food, and participation in well-regulated sport that does not threaten life, health or property.

The text is its own link, but you can also copy this link, if you want:

https://freethoughtblogs.com/pervertjustice/2019/08/04/the-28th-amendment/

NOTE: I really don’t care about attribution. Mostly I just care about getting the text out. If people use that blog post as a hub to talk about these things, great, but I have a tiny blog. People will talk about it lots of places (and lots of places more relevant than my blog) if the text just gets around.

Z&T
Z&T
1 year ago

Everyone we know in TX is OK.

I got up this morning, I saw that it happened again?

So I went to the liquor store again.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
1 year ago

Just curious: were any of the mass shootings in the States this year not carried out by white men?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

@ crip dyke

Hi!

Didn’t want to distract from the topic at hand here with lawyer talk; but posted something to your blog.

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 year ago

@Rabid Rabbit:

I haven’t checked specifically, but I’m certain that there have been. “Mass shootings” are defined as FOUR OR MORE persons shot in more-or-less the same incident. There’s a technical term about “no cooling off period” which you don’t need to know the full details about, but basically it means that if you shoot two people and then walk acrosss the street, open up a business’s door and shoot two more, that’s still supposed to meet the definition.

If you shoot two folks and then drive for an hour to where your next victims are, that almost certainly meets the definition, because the entire time you were engaged in activity that was part of the process of trying to shoot the people you intended to shoot.

If you shoot two people and drive 8 hours with a stop for lunch before shooting two more… probably not, but ultimately the “no cooling off period” definition is about state of mind and not getting distracted by other things, so even this might qualify.

That out of the way, it turns out that the most common mass shootings are when someone decides to kill all the people in their own families (often but not always during a divorce/breakup and a dad kills his own kids rather than let his ex have custody of them, this is typically followed by an attempt to kill the ex – who is shot after the kids so the ex has to witness their children die and feel that horror – and then a suicide attempt).

Depending on the number of people in the family, when someone attempts family-annihilation murder, it can easily qualify as mass murder (four or more murders, whatever the weapon) or a mass shooting (four or more people shot, even if they don’t all die). Men of color do commit these family-annihilation crimes of mass murder and/or mass shooting, and there have almost certainly been some this year, as there are every year.

HOWEVER, there are other categories of mass shooting and mass murder. In particular, there is a type of mass shooter called a “pseudo-commando”. These have been typed in the psychological literature and subsequently studied. This is the type of killer that gets a huge magazine and a fast-shooting gun and sprays bullets around a targeted area as much as, and often even more than, spraying bullets at any particular targeted person or persons known to the shooter that they previously decided to attempt to kill.

These pseudo-commandos definitely skew white, and I don’t know of any in the US who haven’t been white in 2019. The last I remember clearly was Elliot Rodger (who was multi-racial and IIRC appeared aggrieved that he couldn’t access full-on white privilege as a young man who was half-white), but of course there could easily have been quite a few that I missed. For instance, I’ve never been clear on the race of the Parkland, Florida shooter.

===================================

@Alan:

Thanks for the heads-up! Sometimes someone’s first comment will go to spam, and yours did in this case. But I rarely ever check the spam trap, so it would have gone unnoticed without your note.

I’m happy to geek out later, but in general, you’re correct that the wording of the proposed amendment is more about what I think can get done (and thus is affected significantly by my pessimism) than about what I personally think the best policy would be.

Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
1 year ago

One of his murder victims was his own sister.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/dayton-ohio-mass-shooting-1.5236046

Shooter identified as 24-year-old Connor Stephen Betts
Officials confirm one of the victims was Betts’s sister, 22-year-old Megan Betts
Gunman wore a mask, body armour and hearing protection

Snowberry
Snowberry
1 year ago

Good news and bad news both: It’s summer. You see more killings in the summer. Supposedly the heat subtly increases irritability and decreases inhibition. That means that any apparent jump in mass shootings is weather related, and the good news is that it will eventually go back to “normal”. The bad news is that it’s only for about 8-9 months, and also global warming.

(I am not claiming the heat is the main cause. Bigotry, stochastic terrorism, toxic masculinity, and extreme entitlement are still big problems.)

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
1 year ago

@Crip Dyke:

Thanks! After the mockery, this is the sort of thing one come here for…r

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
1 year ago

Uh, also, just so you know, there are also “spree shootings” and “spree killings” which are similar to, but not the same as, “mass …”.

I bring this up because I might have misrepresented the “spree shooting” thing about “no cooling off period” as the same thing in the definition of “mass shooting”.

IIUC, they’re similar, but not the same. Spree also allows decidedly more time to pass while still qualifying as a “spree,” but not as a “mass”. That’s really not my area of expertise, and now I’m worried I got something wrong.

Of course, all that is at least probably irrelevant to your question, because you almost certainly were talking about “pseudo-commando” type killers and/or terrorists. The pseudo-commando stuff I have done pretty well for a lay person, and I’m not confused about that much, at least, b/c it’s been relevant to some past research and writing I’ve done. Because of that I’ve actually read several original research articles on the pseudo-commando killers in both the psych literature and the criminology literature (which overlap, I admit). I haven’t done the same amount of reading for spree-killers and for non-pseudo-commando mass shooters (like family annihilators).

An Impish Pepper
An Impish Pepper
1 year ago

I think the mental illness line that gets trotted out aggravates me more than anything else with these murders. It’s been brought out and countered so many times now that I imagine the only people still doing it are the kind of people who define mental illness as anything deviating from what conservatives believe is the “correct” state of the human mind. i.e. LGBTQIA+ and neurodivergent people.

As far as I’m concerned, anyone who’s still entertaining this argument has a very high chance of being an ableist homophobe trying to find any excuse to justify their bigotry. I fear that conservative governments everywhere, not just in the U.S. but also in those who admire the U.S. right, are rushing headlong toward the conclusion of turning this narrative around to justify policies targeting such groups for oppression.

“My heart goes out to kids with autism. But no one told me they’d be leaving the house.” – a goddamn provincial premier who needs a police escort to attend a suburban pride parade

epitome of incomprehensibility

I was away for the weekend. Friday was a no-media sort of day, but yesterday I heard about the shooting.

Because the whole thing is too big to take in, I’ll just say it’s ridiculous that the Texas shooter’s (apparent) manifesto talked about Latin(x) people “invading” Texas.

I felt like saying:
1. Look up the meaning of “invade”. (Moving someplace peacefully is not “invading”.)
2. Look up the history of Texas.

On the TV in the background, there’s a recording of Trump saying, “There is no place for hate in this country.” OK, good. Then get out of it.

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
1 year ago

This talk about an “Hispanic” (or “Latino”) invasion particularly bugs me. Native people have lived in Central America for many thousands of years, the Maya being probably the best known of the tribes. A few hundred years ago they were conquered by invaders from Spain who had horses and firearms, who murdered many and subjugated the rest, imposing their language on them among other things. The ethnically Spanish people have always constituted most of the ruling class — people like senators Cruz and Rubio — are European(Spanish)-Americans, descendants of the invaders. So now we have an ironic situation where people who are largely the descendants of native peoples who have lived here for millennia are being described as “invaders” of a country which is largely populated by the descendants of actual European invaders who have been here no more than a few hundred years.

Describing descendants of native tribes by terms for the people who invaded and conquered them is not just insulting, it ignores the fact that they were here before we were and thus are by no means invaders.

Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
1 year ago

“My heart goes out to kids with autism. But no one told me they’d be leaving the house.” – a goddamn provincial premier who needs a police escort to attend a suburban pride parade

I’m guessing…Ford?

Aleph
Aleph
1 year ago

Good news, it seems 8chan will be getting what it deserves and will lose support at last, maybe it will end up being shut down (for now, until a Russian site picks it up probably)

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/08/cloudflare-has-had-enough-cutting-off-8chan/

Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
Jesalin, Goddess of Lust & Pleasure
1 year ago

I guess 8chan finally racked up too many bodies. Except, don’t they have an IPO coming up?

Moggie
Moggie
1 year ago

Good news, everyone! Geraldo Rivera has the solution! He tweeted this entirely practical suggestion:

In the meantime, there must be active-shooter trained, heavily armed security personnel every place innocents are gathered.

occasional reader
occasional reader
1 year ago

Condolences to all the families and close relatives and friends.
According to the journal i read, the one in Ohio was the 250th assault with 4 or more injured / dead persons this year. And we are, today, the 217th day of the year. That makes it more than one assault a day. This is hopeless.

Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
Nikki the Bluth Wannabe
1 year ago

I live in the Dayton area (one of the suburbs) and have been in the shooting area several times before (though I was nowhere near there during the shooting-I was home watching a Law & Order: SVU marathon after having spent several hours at a family reunion a few towns west of me). I can attest that it’s definitely a party/gallery/indie/queer-friendly district as @Weasel-Rah said, but overall it’s pretty safe and violence like this is incredibly rare-usually the most that ever happens in that district is drunk-and-disorderlies. Since it’s a party district, police were already on the street and killed the shooter before he could kill anyone else. I’m sad and angry, but I’m also grateful that it didn’t get any worse than it did.

@Weasel-Rah
*sad and angry wave to a fellow Daytonian*

bluecat
bluecat
1 year ago

Hell’s bells.

Just posting from the UK to say I’m really sorry. I hope everyone is OK, but – in the nature of things – we can’t be.

Just a light cast on Trump’s stochastic terrorism, someone’s done a run-down on the Facebook ads he’s been paying for which use the word “invasion”.

All of them are about “immigrants”. The ones cited certainly look like a call to arms.

Though, as people commented above, many Hispanic people all over the South Western states were there long before the white Europeans actually, y’know, invaded.

https://twitter.com/natijomartinez/status/1158049182877458433/photo/1

Makroth
Makroth
1 year ago

@Aleph

It’s funny. Free speech warriors are complaining about “censorship” when it comes to 8chan, but when ISIS websites and accounts are shut down, you don’t hear a single word of protest from them.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
1 year ago

Anything that makes it more difficult for 8chan to find new recruits is a win. People worry that the dark web will make it harder to monitor this sort of activity, but a) it’s not like law enforcement lifts a finger to prevent these shootings, even when the threats and hate-filled manifestos are issued right under their noses b) white supremacy needs to be driven underground and made to understand that it is not mainstream or acceptable. It should take a lot of effort to find them.

Kevin
Kevin
1 year ago

@ Crip Dyke

Have put Amendment XXVIII somewhere a lot of people will see it. Let’s hope it gains traction. It’s a start.