By David Futrelle
On Wednesday, a Malaysian member of parliament proposed a new kind of “Sexual Harassment Act” to help protect men from being “seduced” into raping or otherwise molesting women and girls wearing too-sexy clothes.
“I propose to the minister that we create a ‘sexual harassment act’ to protect men against the demeanor, words and clothing of women,”
Mohamad Imran Abd Hamid told the Malaysian parliament.
which can cause them to be seduced to a point where they commit acts such as incest, rape, molestation, pornography (sic) and others,
Such a law, he said, would ensure that “the men in this country are safe, and the country is peaceful.”
The proposal didn’t go over well, with Mohd Imran’s own party, the ruling Parti Keadilan Rakyat (PKR), rejecting it outright. And so, on Thursday, Mohd Imran apologized for hurting “the feelings of many women and also men, who feel insulted” and retracted his proposal.
Unfortunately the central assumption behind his proposal — that women are “asking for it” if they behave in certain ways or wear certain clothes — is shared by innumerable men (and quite a few women) around the world.
It’s especially widespread among men of the manosphere, who regularly rail against the alleged seductive power of women wearing yoga pants or short shorts as well as outfits that show a bit of shoulder. (Or even just arm.) Men’s Rights granddaddy Warren Farrell has been warning men for decades about the alleged “miniskirt power” and “cleavage power” of young women.
Meanwhile, our old pal enemy Roosh V, the rapey-pickup-guru-turned-raging-fundamentalist-Christian took to Twitter yesterday to warn against another deadly seductive threat to men: women wearing pants.
Stay safe, men! Emulate the folks in Bird Box and wear a blindfold at all times every time you leave the house.
H/T — to Alan Robertshaw for the story and @Zemyla for the Roosh tweet
Send tips to dfutrelle at gmail dot com.
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And throwing abused lesbians under the bus helps you do this how?
@Dalillama
I think people are being repressed with religious institutions and arguments about what’s natural and what’s not, and certain other philosophies. I want to piss off the men who think lesbians can be changed by marriage or whatever. I want to piss off the people who think men and women should only express themselves in certain ways. I want to piss off the people who insist sex should be saved for marriage and procreation whether they like it or not. I want to piss off the people who think doing certain things that aren’t murder and/or sex abuse is Satanic. People who think these things want a society of misery and resentment. It’s kind of like a pyramid scheme, when only the most powerful will benefit.
@Lainy
I will admit that I have not noticed those much. Unfortunately, if we ever bring those up, people will think lesbians are monsters who have not had the order and discipline that men provide, like how many people think transgender individuals are predators.
@rv97
So abused lesbians need to shut the fuck up for the benefit of everyone else huh? are you also one of those people that gets angry when a same sex couple gets divorce after having fought for the right to get married? Stay in the shit relationship so the rest of us look better then the straights?
@rv97
You’re successfully pissing me the fuck off.
@Lainy
No, they should speak about their abuses, but I don’t know how the hell we’re going to convince people that lesbians aren’t deluded.
@rv97
I understand where your anger is coming from. However, hating Muslims is not the solution. Warning: block quotes ahead.
The thing is, people do die from Islamophobia. People like the Christchurch mosque shooter were driven by Islamophobia. Not to mention the non-fatal yet still problematic harassment that Muslims face. I understand your concerns about LGBT rights in those countries, but the solution is not to hate Muslims. Two wrongs don’t make a right. If your justification for hating Muslims is related to LGBT issues, then you have essentially the same argument as Milo Yiannopoulos.
The solution would be to champion LGBT causes, not bash other minorities. I might also note that Saudi Arabia and other nations have a deplorable human rights record in other areas (women, people of different races), but this is not an excuse to bash Muslims. If your problem is with treatment of LGBT people in those countries, you should be critical of the governments of those countries, not the people. In most cases, the people are not allowed to voice dissent.
As for the abused lesbians issue, by covering up abuse in lesbian relationships, think about the people you are harming. If you actually care about lesbians (or women as a whole), you should want them to get out of abusive relationships, not force them to stay hidden. This is how abuse gets worse.
Also, the trans-women-are-predators argument? I have only ever heard that from conservatives and TERFs who are trying to provide justification for prejudice without any statistics or support. I doubt that any conservatives would actually bat an eye regarding lesbian abuse, as they seem to pick conclusions then make up justifications, not the other way around.
Who said lesbians were deluded? Acknowledging the reality of abuse does not make people deluded. For example, straight people end up in abusive relationships too, but would you tell a straight abuse survivor that they are deluded?
I understand your anger at the world, but it seems that you may be attacking the wrong targets.
There’s just do much fractally wrong here, but I want to say something about this:
As a bi/pan person who has been in an abusive relationship with a man, fuck you for implying my sexual attraction to men is to blame for this and for outright stating that lesbians are better than me simply because they don’t have that attraction. Orientation isn’t a choice. It doesn’t make anyone better than anyone else. But also, women who are in abusive relationships are not to blame for that abuse and are not lesser as a result of it. It’s incredibly awful of you to say so. Just unbelievable.
@rv97
I’m sure that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis would be thrilled to learn that nobody dies from Islamophobia. If they hadn’t been murdered in the name of Islamophobia, that is. That completely ignores the freelance murders, such as those of Ricky Best and Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche here in my city. You really need to take a big step back, stop typing, and learn something before you open your ignorant, bigoted noise hole on these topics, ‘kay?
@Naglfar
I will say I prefer not to associate with Islamophobes, since almost every one of them I’ve come across were very conservative. Hell, there was this transphobic lesbian I’ve come across who hated both Islam and gender non-conformity even in cis men. Milo has proven himself to be a Nazi mouthpiece, only if because he and his like are obsessed with triggering liberals at this point, even going as far as to champion homophobic causes and the Catholic church even though he is openly Islamophobic.
Now, I’m glad that progressive Muslims and religious people do exist, and that there are LGBT Muslims who accept themselves, but I’m angry that their voices are the minority, and often, the teachings of their mainstream religious institutions can at least dominate or even appear to refute their beliefs of a free and open society. How can one prove that homosexuality is not a perversion when most religious (and non-religious) individuals are convinced it is and even if they’re shown like two non-human same-sex animals having sex? What should one do if they believe a religion is not for them, and are death threats or coercion appropriate answers? I’ve come across a Twitter thread sadly with a lot of homophobic comments on a tweet by the Natural History Museum in Pride Month.
On a thread I started on Reddit, I have been given these links by a Muslim man, at least this is what this person claimed to be, as part of their responses:
On homosexuality:
https://questionsonislam.com/question/what-are-decrees-religion-islam-regarding-homosexuality-interest-same-gender-homosexuality
On family:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/10050/why-does-islam-forbid-lesbianism-and-homosexuality
These, to me, appear almost exactly the same as what I’ve heard from homophobes who consider themselves Christians – you can be gay, but not act on it. Problem is, where does acting on being gay start? Expressing you like other men? Acknowledging it? I’ve unfortunately come across someone who wanted gays dead, on a liberal platform of all places (a very rare occurrence for me).
Unfortunately, I can see how their views make sense too and that it seems like nothing can refute them. No true Christian or Muslim would cherry-pick verses, so the argument goes too.
Atheists call religious people deluded, while religious people do likewise with atheists. The thing is, since religious people, especially conservative religious individuals, appear to be the dominant force in the world, their delusions are armed with teeth.
@rv97
You said you prefer not to associate with Islamophobes but…you just asked what’s wrong with Islamophobia. That’s a little hypocritical. If you don’t want to be associated with Islamophobes, a first step would be to reject Islamophobia as an ideology.
It seems like you have some legitimate criticisms of theocratic governments and of fundamentalists. However, as I’ve mentioned, the solution to this is not to hate all Muslims. If you want to make change, try finding a human rights organization that does what you care about. Make a donation. You may have legitimate concerns, but the way you have phrased them is rather counterintuitive.
Islamophobia only makes matters worse. If you want to make inroads as an LGBT rights supporter in the Muslim community and increase acceptance, try not hating the people you want to change their minds. You’re more likely to get people to change their minds when you don’t write them all off or lump them together as one homogeneous group.
EDIT: Didn’t see your second comment. You seem to have found an example of what one individual believes, with sources they have given. This is likely not the view of all 2 billion practicing Muslims. As well, I would like to clarify that slamming all religious people as deluded is committing the same crime fundamentalists commit when they say the same of atheists. By doing so, you are turning away potential allies and alienating yourself.
@kupo
I know that attractions can’t be helped, but it’s a shame that men are often quite toxic and responsible for a lot of heinous acts. Granted, this is coming from someone with gender issues (whom, after some reflection, realized it because I never saw anything great about being a guy even while being raised in a homophobic and non-feminist environment).
The unwritten code of society worldwide that men are second only to gods is apparent and very much in force. I believe that denying men this power would do society a huge favour. I feel like men are generally inclined to not respect women and either treat them like sheep or sex toys.
I’d rather not get into this, but I felt I should comment on something:
As a bi woman who has dated a few other women and has seen some other peoples’ f/f relationships, I can definitely say that the idea that two women dating are “pure” on any level is absolute BS. I mean, I’m all a fan of those yuri stories about high school puppy love where the couple shyly dance around each other or gaze longingly into each other’s eyes and feed each other cupcakes or whatever. It’s definitely cute and squee-worthy. But being free of culturally influenced gender-related conflicts within a relationship doesn’t stop women from fucking and fighting at all. If anything, there’s probably a little more of both.
@Dalillama @Naglfar
I believe I misspoke, because I do know that people get killed from Islamophobic attitudes. My main concern is that there appears to not be a very equal accountability held against everyone who holds problematic views regarding topics such as gender, sexuality and recreational pursuits, at least from what I’ve seen.
I don’t want any one religion excused just because they’re the minority, even if they hold repressive views. It’s also causing the right to find a fault with the left that they’re taking advantage of, and using it to push their own repressive social norms.
@Snowberry
I am worried that any conflicts that come to light to the mainstream in lesbian relationships will be used against them as proof that they “need men”. And how do you think there’s more conflicts within such relationships?
@rv97
So what do you think lesbians in abusive relations should do? Hide it? Abuse victims need to be able to get out of situations like that, and hiding the violence isn’t helping.
@Naglfar
I think they hide it because no one takes abuse cases seriously. I do admit I’m worried about giving homophobes more power.
That’s bullshit. An entire gender is not generally inclined to not respect women. Society teaches all of us to not respect women. Some individuals absorb more of that than others. You’re completely ignoring societal factors and blaming the entirely wrong thing. And you’re absolutely disrespecting victims of DV, both hetero and lesbian with your complete and utter donkey shit assertions.
@rv97
Next time you’re going to say something,Think about what you’re saying, then don’t say it.
And then just run away somewhere.
Warning: block quotes
@Dalillama
Good advice for all manner of bigots and trolls.
Um, okay, these things are only theories on my part, but…
On the “fucking” part, self-reporting on surveys seems to indicate that f/f relationships on the average have more sex than m/f ones. Admittedly self-reporting isn’t completely reliable, but if it were true, there are a few likely factors here: lower-sex-drive lesbians might be less inclined to end up in relationships to begin with since they don’t have potential targets of affection hitting on them constantly; women tend to be more focused on pleasuring their partners than themselves, resulting in more satisfaction for both parties, and one tends to be more enthusiastic about sex if it’s enjoyable; without any expectation of “thrust and penetrate” as a standard, f/f sex tends to be more variable and inventive, and variety is a key to keeping the fires burning; and there’s always the old standby of “women just understand each others’ bodies better” which is not actually always true (there exist women who are clueless about their own bodies) but it still might make a difference where it *is* true.
On the “fighting” part… women tend to be less hesitant to fight with another woman than a man, because socially (and often physically) they’re coming from a more equal place. In addition, decent men often have a “don’t hit a woman” mentality which can extend to not arguing with her either; but one way or another, this usually ends with wallpapering over whatever issues caused the hostility rather than solving it. Non-decent men are more prone to shutting it down or getting his way with veiled or even actual threats. Note that none of what I’m describing here is healthy; a healthy relationship is difficult regardless of who is involved. It’s just that poorly-managed f/f relationships tend to more often end when they get tired of fighting each other, and poorly-managed m/f relationships tend to more often end in a messy explosion due to too many unresolved issues.
I can’t say anything about outright abusive relationships, though, or how common they are in m/f versus f/f, only that abusive women do exist, though in an m/f relationship it seems like they’re more likely to abuse their children rather than their partner. (Not that they can’t do both.)
(Addenum for clarity) What I was describing above was only meant to be tendencies (and I’m not even sure if they’re even that strong) not absolutes. There’s no reason why an f/f relationship can’t be the wallpapery kind which eventually blows up, it just seems less frequent. Also, lack of fighting doesn’t mean that one or both partners aren’t miserable; it can mean that it’s less visible.
@rv97
You might want to work on not sounding so much like them then
“Shut up and take one for the team/don’t air your dirty laundry, you’re making us all look bad” is not a good strategy for any community.